New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 4854 Old 10-27-2016, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
I have 18ghz input cards and still the sync is horrible on the JVC. SJ
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post #932 of 4854 Old 10-28-2016, 10:40 AM
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I'm a bit confused. You can configure the RadiancePro to always output the same signal to your display to avoid any resyncs, regardless of input source. The ideal setup should be keep your input sources as "native" (or in the case of HTPC "Allow framerate change") and then set your output configurations in the RadiancePro to always be the ideal output for your projector (say 4k60). The RadiancePro is excellent at scaling to the target output resolution and telecine to the target refresh rate. Unless you are sending HDR or 4:4:4 12-bit color down to your display, you should not have an issue exceeding the capability of the existing 9Ghz output card.

In this configuration, your display device should never have to resync, but you should still get the full benefit of the RadiancePro for your content.
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post #933 of 4854 Old 10-28-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
I have 18ghz input cards and still the sync is horrible on the JVC. SJ
I think thats just the nature of the cards being used...

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post #934 of 4854 Old 10-28-2016, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesmil View Post
I'm a bit confused. You can configure the RadiancePro to always output the same signal to your display to avoid any resyncs, regardless of input source. The ideal setup should be keep your input sources as "native" (or in the case of HTPC "Allow framerate change") and then set your output configurations in the RadiancePro to always be the ideal output for your projector (say 4k60). The RadiancePro is excellent at scaling to the target output resolution and telecine to the target refresh rate. Unless you are sending HDR or 4:4:4 12-bit color down to your display, you should not have an issue exceeding the capability of the existing 9Ghz output card. In this configuration, your display device should never have to resync, but you should still get the full benefit of the RadiancePro for your content.
I have absolutely zero experience using the Radiance Pro but am planning to do so and what you say is how I thought it worked but all the talk of these syncing issues and in particular making sequences of multiple short video clips unwatchable rang serious alarm bells, because that's precisely what I will be doing! So, could what you are saying be employed such that multiple short video clips of differing frame rates can all be played in sequence without any such aforementioned syncing issues, with the Radiance Pro converting them all to and outputing them all as 4K60? Many thanks.
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post #935 of 4854 Old 10-28-2016, 12:44 PM
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HDMI source resolution/rate change causes a re-sync across the whole HDMI chain to the display (at least for HDCP enabled output), the Lumagen cannot avoid this per HDMI/HDCP spec AFAIK.
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post #936 of 4854 Old 10-28-2016, 02:03 PM
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Anyone here with a Strato/Lumagen Pro/JVC RS600 combo? I'm trying to figure out the options for displaying UHD/HDR content which has just been made available for the Strato. For the default, I'm turning HDR/REC2020 on in the Lumagen Pro (in Global Options). On the JVC, I've setup a User Memory (with REC2020, Gamma D, High Lamp, etc.). When selecting a movie (after JVC sync awhile ), the HDR goes to Y on the JVC Info screen, select my HDR user Memory I setup and all looks really good. A little darker than I'm used to vs. non HDR content, but still looks really good. Color depth is excellent. Even the BLUE screens from the Lumagen Pro look richer in color. However, I know some people are sending the HDR signal from the source and remapping HDR BT.2020 to SDR BT.2020 color space. Is this possible with my combo or what other options might I try? Thanks. SJ
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post #937 of 4854 Old 10-29-2016, 12:50 AM
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Nigel_ Arrow AV, The long sync time on refresh rate change is a JVC Issue. The only real problem with JVC x series projectors is their terrible huge long sync times on res change. Nothing to do with Lumagen. As has been said though, any resolution or refresh rate change on source will require a resync of entire change...but frame rate converting everything to 60Hz will speed things up at the output side and for MOST content you'd want to watch that is ok for a short minute long clip...you wouldn't really want to watch an entire 50Hz tv series or film at 60Hz...

SJHT Create another memory and put an unused CMS bank in it for HDR. Set the CMS>COLOURSPACE to SDR2020 or even SDR709 with your display and you will get HDR/REC2020 in to the scaler and it will then not send out the HDR flag and this will stop the JVC from automatically going in to GammaD high lamp mode. You can then create a LUT to do the HDR mapping. If you do not create a LUT the image will look terrible though.

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post #938 of 4854 Old 10-29-2016, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
Nigel_ Arrow AV, The long sync time on refresh rate change is a JVC Issue. The only real problem with JVC x series projectors is their terrible huge long sync times on res change. Nothing to do with Lumagen. As has been said though, any resolution or refresh rate change on source will require a resync of entire change...but frame rate converting everything to 60Hz will speed things up at the output side and for MOST content you'd want to watch that is ok for a short minute long clip...you wouldn't really want to watch an entire 50Hz tv series or film at 60Hz...

SJHT Create another memory and put an unused CMS bank in it for HDR. Set the CMS>COLOURSPACE to SDR2020 or even SDR709 with your display and you will get HDR/REC2020 in to the scaler and it will then not send out the HDR flag and this will stop the JVC from automatically going in to GammaD high lamp mode. You can then create a LUT to do the HDR mapping. If you do not create a LUT the image will look terrible though.
OK thanks Gordon, good to know there's potential work-around via the Lumagen but worst case scenario I can custom pro-video-edit any such sequences of short video clips to suit such that everything fed to the Lumagen is the same spec... I always like to have a 'Plan B' Speak soon
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post #939 of 4854 Old 10-29-2016, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post

SJHT Create another memory and put an unused CMS bank in it for HDR. Set the CMS>COLOURSPACE to SDR2020 or even SDR709 with your display and you will get HDR/REC2020 in to the scaler and it will then not send out the HDR flag and this will stop the JVC from automatically going in to GammaD high lamp mode. You can then create a LUT to do the HDR mapping. If you do not create a LUT the image will look terrible though.
I assume you are only talking about what to do in the Lumagen and not the JVC? I've created LUTs using Calman. Is this the same to do the remapping? Thanks for your help. SJ
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post #940 of 4854 Old 10-29-2016, 08:50 AM
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SJHT: Yes my comments are what to set the Lumagen to in order to get HDR REC2020 in to it but not to then output HDR infoframe. HDR to SDR is basically what your GammaD setting in the JVC is already doing. It's just JVC's attempt to do the same thing you could do in the Lumagen. I do not know whether Calman have the capability in their software to do HDR LUT's with Lumagens yet.

If the Strato has the capability you could try setting global video in Lumagen to REC2020 YES and HDR to NO. and then see if the Lumagen reports REC2020 colour as coming in from the Strato without HDR. If it does then follow my procedure above then create a LUT with the target of SDR/REC2020
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post #941 of 4854 Old 11-01-2016, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer View Post
Anyone tried this new 4k HDR Roku with a Pro with 18ghz input cards? So far I cannot get any HDR. The Pro shows the input is SDR709. When I try to play a Amazon HDR stream, like Bosch, the input shuts down and I need to go to a different 1080p input to get back an signal. It also happens on the Samsung 8500 when trying to play the same HDR content.
The Roku Ultra, and for that matter the Roku 4 and the Radiance Pro do not play nicely together. When I sync Amazon 4K HDR the Pro shows 4K, HDR, Rec 2020 on the input side but outputs 4K, HDR, 709 on the output side, I have tried forcing REC2020 output and sometimes I can get it other times the Pro will only output 709. I have removed the Roku Ultra from the Radiance chain and connected direct to Projector, this has cleared up the issue. I do not have the 18ghz card upgrade
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post #942 of 4854 Old 11-01-2016, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
The Roku Ultra, and for that matter the Roku 4 and the Radiance Pro do not play nicely together. When I sync Amazon 4K HDR the Pro shows 4K, HDR, Rec 2020 on the input side but outputs 4K, HDR, 709 on the output side, I have tried forcing REC2020 output and sometimes I can get it other times the Pro will only output 709. I have removed the Roku Ultra from the Radiance chain and connected direct to Projector, this has cleared up the issue. I do not have the 18ghz card upgrade
With the Pro, I can do the scaling that I need for the multiple AR's that the various Roku apps produce. I do have two 18ghz cards installed.

Lumagen has now replicated, in house, the issues with the Ultra and perhaps even the Roku 4 and are working on a fix. BTW, the only issue I have had with the Roku 4 is the 1080p output at power on that requires a reset of the Roku resolution to fix. The Ultra does not have this issue.

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post #943 of 4854 Old 11-01-2016, 08:49 AM
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When will the 18 GHz output cards be available? SJ
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post #944 of 4854 Old 11-01-2016, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
When will the 18 GHz output cards be available? SJ
Supposed to be in December. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vid...l#post47086897
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post #945 of 4854 Old 11-01-2016, 03:16 PM
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Netflix is outputting 4K 60P in the Roku Ultra, could part of the issues be the limited bandwidth of the 10.2 GHZ cards?
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post #946 of 4854 Old 11-04-2016, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Netflix is outputting 4K 60P in the Roku Ultra, could part of the issues be the limited bandwidth of the 10.2 GHZ cards?
OK let me ask this another way. With the Roku Ultra as a source, and Netflix outputting 4K60 HDR, is the 18ghz card needed? I assume Lumagen has a Roku Ultra in the lab
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post #947 of 4854 Old 11-04-2016, 11:04 AM
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Lumagen has a Roku Ultra and is posting a new software update that should improve the functionality with this product. Roku needs to post new firmware to fix the issue of them sometimes displaying a HDCP warning screen when you change video sources.

At this point the Roku Ultra outputs a high bandwidth 4k60 HDR mode that requires a 18GHz input card on the RadiancePro. Roku could release a firmware update for their product so that it could output a lower bandwidth 4k60 HDR mode, that wouldn't require the 18GHz input card on the RadiancePro.

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post #948 of 4854 Old 11-04-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rfpublic View Post
Lumagen has a Roku Ultra and is posting a new software update that should improve the functionality with this product. Roku needs to post new firmware to fix the issue of them sometimes displaying a HDCP warning screen when you change video sources.

At this point the Roku Ultra outputs a high bandwidth 4k60 HDR mode that requires a 18GHz input card on the RadiancePro. Roku could release a firmware update for their product so that it could output a lower bandwidth 4k60 HDR mode, that wouldn't require the 18GHz input card on the RadiancePro.

Randy Freeman
Thank you Randy.
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post #949 of 4854 Old 11-04-2016, 11:49 AM
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http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 102116- Fix for input mode issue that could result in no video output. Improvements for 18ghz input card operation and works well with Roku Ultra now (although Ultra is in need of a fix for it's incorrect hdcp nag screen and buffering issues seen sometimes with UHD video). Added Rate Match command in menu under Output: Styles: StyleX: HDMI Format: Rate Match to allow disabling rate matching for displays that have excessive resync times and would rather have slight rate mismatch. Couple small menu improvements and fixes.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

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post #950 of 4854 Old 11-08-2016, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
For those of us that use Calman, I see on the Spectracal forum that support for calibrating HDR 3DLUT's in the Radiance Pro will appear in the next Calman Beta (CalMAN 2016.2 beta), apparently scheduled for release next week.
Anyone get this? I upgraded my C6 meter to a C6/HDR unit. SJ
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post #951 of 4854 Old 11-08-2016, 04:12 PM
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Anyone get this? I upgraded my C6 meter to a C6/HDR unit. SJ
Hi, some news posted @ SpectraCAL's Forum about this.

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post #952 of 4854 Old 11-09-2016, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, some news posted @ SpectraCAL's Forum about this.
Yep, not good news either, quite a surprising response from them!

Quote:
The HDR tone mapping will be done by Lumagen.
Is this correct, or is Lumagen expecting this to be done in via the calibration software/3D LUT? If it is being done by the Radiance Pro, how will it know the output parameters of the display?

Quote:
3D LUTs for HDR is not something we recommend at this time. You are going to fight the display and its gamut mapping.
I was under the impression this was already working in Lightspace? Can anyone confirm?
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post #953 of 4854 Old 11-09-2016, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I was under the impression this was already working in Lightspace? Can anyone confirm?

Hi,
Yes, I can do that. I've been seeing HDR/REC2020 movies (Ultra-Blu-rays) on my VW1100ES-projector (Non-HDR/BT2020) for several weeks. The Radiance Pro has a 3-D-LUT from LightSpace, which handles the Colormapping as well as the implementation of the ST2084 EOFT. This is not about the pure conversion of HDR/REC2020 to SDR/709, which can be any HDR -player, but the best possible transfer of the HDR/REC2020 signal to the capabilities of the VW1100ES.
There is only a very little problem with the lower grades (0.1 - 0.005 Nits), but this can also be due to the Samsung K8500 Player. Here I have to adjust slightly manually with the Gamma-EQ.

Peter
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post #954 of 4854 Old 11-09-2016, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by OMARDRIS View Post
Hi,
Yes, I can do that. I've been seeing HDR/REC2020 movies (Ultra-Blu-rays) on my VW1100ES-projector (Non-HDR/BT2020) for several weeks. The Radiance Pro has a 3-D-LUT from LightSpace, which handles the Colormapping as well as the implementation of the ST2084 EOFT. This is not about the pure conversion of HDR/REC2020 to SDR/709, which can be any HDR -player, but the best possible transfer of the HDR/REC2020 signal to the capabilities of the VW1100ES.
There is only a very little problem with the lower grades (0.1 - 0.005 Nits), but this can also be due to the Samsung K8500 Player. Here I have to adjust slightly manually with the Gamma-EQ.

Peter
How does one implement this in the Radiance, I do not see any options for HDR conversion, other than global video HDR on/off.
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post #955 of 4854 Old 11-10-2016, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
How does one implement this in the Radiance, I do not see any options for HDR conversion, other than global video HDR on/off.

Hi,
The color mapping and the adaptation of the ST2084 EOTF to the abilities of the display are only possible thanks to the good cooperation between LightSpace and the Radiance Pro. At the moment this is not possible with Calman 5.

LightSpace creates a 3-D-LUT based on the profiling of the display and calculates the color transformation from the REC2020-container (Ultra-Blu-ray) to the Colorspace of the Display. Therefore, for the profiling of the display, one does not take the color space REC709, but rather one that approximates the color space P3(DCI). Of course, later the display must run in exactly the mode with which was profiled. It does not even notice that the input signal actually corresponds to the HDR/REC2020 standard because it has been adapted to its capabilities.

The 3D-LUT from LightSpace allows the Radiance Pro to deliver the data from the REC2020-Container to the Non-HDR/REC2020-Display so that the display can interpret it correctly. Therefore the Radiance provides special CMS memories for HDR/REC2020-LUTs. However, I believe it is advantageous if the display can basically process 12-bit signals.

In addition LightSpace calculates a 1-D-LUT for the adaptation of the ST2084 EOTF. This adaptation causes the Radiance Pro, to change the gamma curve of the display, e.g. 2.2 to the ST2084-EOTF. When creating the LUT in LightSpace, you can set the limits for clipping and a soft clipping for the highlights of the HDR/REC2020 signal. Here it can be good that you have to calculate several LUTs to find a good compromise for the display and the setup.

The whole thing may sound very complicated, but it is really easy, because LightSpace and Radiance Pro do the actual hard work.

Basically, the LUT of LightSpace and the Radiance Pro do nothing but the internal HDR/REC2020 processes of a HDR/REC2020-capable display.
If you switch off this capability on an HDR/REC2020 capable device, you can also transfer the entire transformation process to the Radiance Pro. Depending on the quality of the internal processes of the display, it may be that the Radiance Pro does a lot better.

I hope this was understandable.
Peter
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post #956 of 4854 Old 11-10-2016, 05:36 AM
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And the big question is, how does this faux-HDR look? We're all, I think, hoping this is the best solution for projectors, at least for now.

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My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, JVC Z1, Lumagen Pro, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500
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post #957 of 4854 Old 11-10-2016, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OMARDRIS View Post
Hi,
The color mapping and the adaptation of the ST2084 EOTF to the abilities of the display are only possible thanks to the good cooperation between LightSpace and the Radiance Pro. At the moment this is not possible with Calman 5.

LightSpace creates a 3-D-LUT based on the profiling of the display and calculates the color transformation from the REC2020-container (Ultra-Blu-ray) to the Colorspace of the Display. Therefore, for the profiling of the display, one does not take the color space REC709, but rather one that approximates the color space P3(DCI). Of course, later the display must run in exactly the mode with which was profiled. It does not even notice that the input signal actually corresponds to the HDR/REC2020 standard because it has been adapted to its capabilities.

The 3D-LUT from LightSpace allows the Radiance Pro to deliver the data from the REC2020-Container to the Non-HDR/REC2020-Display so that the display can interpret it correctly. Therefore the Radiance provides special CMS memories for HDR/REC2020-LUTs. However, I believe it is advantageous if the display can basically process 12-bit signals.

In addition LightSpace calculates a 1-D-LUT for the adaptation of the ST2084 EOTF. This adaptation causes the Radiance Pro, to change the gamma curve of the display, e.g. 2.2 to the ST2084-EOTF. When creating the LUT in LightSpace, you can set the limits for clipping and a soft clipping for the highlights of the HDR/REC2020 signal. Here it can be good that you have to calculate several LUTs to find a good compromise for the display and the setup.

The whole thing may sound very complicated, but it is really easy, because LightSpace and Radiance Pro do the actual hard work.

Basically, the LUT of LightSpace and the Radiance Pro do nothing but the internal HDR/REC2020 processes of a HDR/REC2020-capable display.
If you switch off this capability on an HDR/REC2020 capable device, you can also transfer the entire transformation process to the Radiance Pro. Depending on the quality of the internal processes of the display, it may be that the Radiance Pro does a lot better.

I hope this was understandable.
Peter
Hi Peter:

Very interesting. I would like to try this with my HDR projector, Sony 5000ES, so in order to enable this in the Radiance, and have the Radiance do the conversion, all I have to do is turn off HDR in my projector. I am unclear on how to set this up and enable the conversion?
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post #958 of 4854 Old 11-10-2016, 08:18 AM
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And the big question is, how does this faux-HDR look? We're all, I think, hoping this is the best solution for projectors, at least for now.
Hi,
The quality of the result for a projector depends strongly on its characteristics.
How well can he reach the color space P3 (DCI)?
How much light does he have in the production set-up at IRE 100 (white)?
Of the maximum light, he can sacrifice something for the highlights at HDR.

The VW1000ES and the VW1100ES have a mechanical filter to reach the color space P3 (DCI). But unfortunately this filter costs a lot of light. In my case about 35%. Therefore, I can not use it.

I use the color space 3 of the VW1100ES with High-Lamp and D65, Gamma 2.2. All image enhancers are off. Color space 3 is slightly larger than REC709.
This brings me at 3m (10 feet) image width at IRE 100 to about 100 Nits. Less than 100 Nits at IRE 100 should not be in my opinion. This makes it clear that larger image widths than 3m are hardly possible with the VW1100ES.

I have the image clipped at 800 to 1000 Nits with a soft clipping at 90% of the max. light to 1500 Nits. But this is my personal attitude. Others prefer a clipping limit of 2.5 to 3 times the luma value at IRE 100.

Without doubt, this is a compromise for normal projectors, but it's still fun to see a well-made ultra-Blu-ray (for example, "Lucy" or "Life of Pi")
I am surprised how natural the image impression is, though or perhaps just because the image is slightly darker on the average.


The photo I made free with the mobile phone.






Peter
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post #959 of 4854 Old 11-10-2016, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Very interesting. I would like to try this with my HDR projector, Sony 5000ES, so in order to enable this in the Radiance, and have the Radiance do the conversion, all I have to do is turn off HDR in my projector. I am unclear on how to set this up and enable the conversion?

Hi,
The Sony VW5000ES is such a good projector that I would advise you to contact you with Gordon Fraser. I know he has done exactly what I've described.

Peter
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post #960 of 4854 Old 11-10-2016, 10:36 AM
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Hi,
The quality of the result for a projector depends strongly on its characteristics.
How well can he reach the color space P3 (DCI)?
How much light does he have in the production set-up at IRE 100 (white)?
Of the maximum light, he can sacrifice something for the highlights at HDR.

The VW1000ES and the VW1100ES have a mechanical filter to reach the color space P3 (DCI). But unfortunately this filter costs a lot of light. In my case about 35%. Therefore, I can not use it.

I use the color space 3 of the VW1100ES with High-Lamp and D65, Gamma 2.2. All image enhancers are off. Color space 3 is slightly larger than REC709.
This brings me at 3m (10 feet) image width at IRE 100 to about 100 Nits. Less than 100 Nits at IRE 100 should not be in my opinion. This makes it clear that larger image widths than 3m are hardly possible with the VW1100ES.

I have the image clipped at 800 to 1000 Nits with a soft clipping at 90% of the max. light to 1500 Nits. But this is my personal attitude. Others prefer a clipping limit of 2.5 to 3 times the luma value at IRE 100.

Without doubt, this is a compromise for normal projectors, but it's still fun to see a well-made ultra-Blu-ray (for example, "Lucy" or "Life of Pi")
I am surprised how natural the image impression is, though or perhaps just because the image is slightly darker on the average.




Peter
Hi can you tell us the exact procedure you followed step by step?
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