New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 5825 Old 12-15-2015, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
It's very strange: the Lumagen worked fine with my previous JVC projector, and the Beledon HDMI cable - their best for long runs - has been very robust over it's 45 feet. It passes 1080p, 3D and even 4K (upscaled output from the 2041) signals effortlessly. And the HDMI cable passes 1080p fine to the new projector if bypassing the Lumagen. Why then would only switching projectors cause this problem in the chain? Do I understand that Jim is implying the new JVC's HDMI input is "not as good" as the last one in terms of receiving signals? (That would be especially weird, since HDMI reliability was one of the things JVC worked on and touted as improved in these models, and more reliable syncing was reported by people like Cine4home in testing them).
I had a lot of problems with HDMI I put my AVM50V in my system. Cables that "passed 1080p fine" now had terrible handshaking problems. The reality is the ability to pass 1080p is not a sufficient test for whether the cables are good enough in all circumstances. I'll also throw out that belden cables (I assume you're talking Blue Jeans Cable) aren't high speed certified at 45 feet, they're only certified high speed to 25 feet.

If I had to interpret what Jim is saying, I'd say this. The 4K output Lumagens produce signals with higher frequency requirements than older Lumagen's with 1080p chips (they probably run at higher internal frequencies). Further the new JVCs have 18Gbps chips vs the older JVC's with 10.2Gbps chips, these are necessarily more sensitive, but probably in both good (being able to pick up 18Gbps) and bad (less forgiving to marginal cabling).

It might be worth trying a cable actually certified High Speed at 45 feet, like an active cable.
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post #122 of 5825 Old 12-15-2015, 01:11 PM
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Thanks Stranger89, that does help clarify things!

Ironically, one of the reasons I went for the 2041 was to verify my cabling was good for 4K (since I could do a test outputting 4K). Since it "worked" I thought, great, I'm good! Apparently not. :-(

I've had lots of suggestions to try in fixing the issue. Time to try some of them.
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post #123 of 5825 Old 12-15-2015, 09:23 PM
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http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 120215- Couple of important changes to input menu which now allow selection of input settings based on input resolution including 4K or Cinema 4K (4096 pixels wide vs. 3840). We had to change up the input menu a little to accommodate this so now under "Input" there is an "Input Setup" menu which assigns different input configs based on the input resolution. There is also a separate input configuration menu where you make settings for the different "In Configs". So the Input menu is now similar to the output side where we have an Output Setup menu that selects CMS, Style, etc based on the input mode. Also added many more modes to the Output Setup menu so you can differentiate 4K and many others for selecting the output settings. Note: due to the input menu changes it's possible you may have to redo a couple of input settings if your setup was complex enough. For this reason you may want to download the new config utility that now supports the Pro and save your configuration first. Several bugfixes for loss of output video under certain conditions. Some other smaller bugfixes. Couple small tweaks to the temperature readout in Fan menu. Added direct code to set input HDCP to 1.X ("menu 0811") or back to the default of HDCP 2.2 ("menu 0821")---useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

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post #124 of 5825 Old 12-16-2015, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
1)Moving my Lumagen to my projector location is a very, very daunting idea given how my system is cabled and set up and programmed.

... 2) Do I understand that Jim is implying the new JVC's HDMI input is "not as good" as the last one in terms of receiving signals?.
1) My suggestion was to move the Radiance as a "temporary test" and not a permanent change. So no reprogramming, just move it, test it, and move it back.

2) Not at all. My comments on HDMI input design were meant to be generic and not in any way specific to JVC. As I mentioned the connection is a system and it might just mean a change that is within spec in the "system" (in this case the JVC input) changes the transmission line reflection points, etc. just enough to cause issues.

For the 18 GHz chips, it may be that the chip's design itself is different due to needing to work with 18 GHz, and this is making it more sensitive to HDMI cable/connector/impedance issues.

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post #125 of 5825 Old 12-16-2015, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
... If I had to interpret what Jim is saying, I'd say this. The 4K output Lumagens produce signals with higher frequency requirements than older Lumagen's with 1080p chips (they probably run at higher internal frequencies).
To clarify: The frequency of the video (i.e. resolution and rate) can affect locking on to the HDMI signal. However, what I meant was the "edge-rate" (also called slew-rate) of the signals for 4k output chips must be faster. The edge rate is how fast a signal transitions from a logic-high to a logic-low, and has nothing directly to do with the frequency of the signal (resolution/rate), other than supporting higher resolution/rate modes means they must be faster.

Said another way: The faster edge rate required of 4k output chips to be able to work at 4k puts more demands on the HDMI cables even when running at 1080p60.

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post #126 of 5825 Old 12-16-2015, 02:17 PM
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Yup, that's what I was trying to say, I was thinking "sample rate" in my post, thinking of the "Frequency" the HDMI chips run at to create the waveform, which could be independent of the actual data rate.
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post #127 of 5825 Old 12-16-2015, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
1) My suggestion was to move the Radiance as a "temporary test" and not a permanent change. So no reprogramming, just move it, test it, and move it back.

2) Not at all. My comments on HDMI input design were meant to be generic and not in any way specific to JVC. As I mentioned the connection is a system and it might just mean a change that is within spec in the "system" (in this case the JVC input) changes the transmission line reflection points, etc. just enough to cause issues.

For the 18 GHz chips, it may be that the chip's design itself is different due to needing to work with 18 GHz, and this is making it more sensitive to HDMI cable/connector/impedance issues.
jrp,

Thanks. I understood your suggestion was to move the Lumagen as a test - I just mean that given the way my system is cabled, this is a very daunting task.
But I'm running out of options so I might have to try it.

So the hypothesis here is that the new HDMI input of the new JVC projector is putting different demands on my HDMI cabling, in particular it's ability to communicate with the Lumagen, correct?
(Because the cable already works with the Blu-Ray player only, so it has to be an issue between the Lumagen and Projector).

Just to be sure: I would move the Lumagen 2041 to the projector location, run the long HDMI cable run from the output of my Oppo Blu-Ray player into the appropriate input of the Lumagen, and use a 6 foot cable run from the Lumagen out to the Projector. And if I get a picture working ok, that suggests the problem is the cable and I should upgrade the cable?

In which case, I guess I'd try a monoprice active cable.

What about Cat 6/7 cables? Would those be likely to solve the issue?

(BTW, if I do move the Lumagen and still don't get sync to the projector, what then? Would it still be a cabling issue?)

Many thanks.

Last edited by R Harkness; 12-16-2015 at 08:40 PM.
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post #128 of 5825 Old 12-17-2015, 09:50 AM
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http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 120315- Fix for incomplete display of output modes in output setup menu in 120215 firmware.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

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post #129 of 5825 Old 12-17-2015, 12:32 PM
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Using mine to feed 1080i into 4k oled. I don't know if it's my imagination but I think the image quality has improved with 120305
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post #130 of 5825 Old 12-17-2015, 02:32 PM
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Ok, the first thing I want to try is to update my Lumagen 2041's firmware. The problem is:

1. I've never done this before.
2. Since I can't access the Lumagen (hooking it up freezes my projector) I have to do this "blind." I can't check what firmware I have, or see the Lumagen menus. Can I still update the firmware without accessing the Lumagen menus - e.g. using the USB update method?
And, do the firmware updates only work with PCs?
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post #131 of 5825 Old 12-17-2015, 11:42 PM
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PCs only - yes afaik. You don't need to see the lumagen. Just plug in the usb lead. Download the update to your pc. Run the update exe. Hit start (although I always also select 'force update' radio button first). 2 bars show download progress. Lumagen powers off at the end. You power lumagen back on. Done.

Edit.
You will need to configure the com port option under windows device manager so that the update software knows which virtual serial port to use. I can't remember if this is a built in windows feature or that you need an external software driver. Maybe someone else can remember.

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post #132 of 5825 Old 12-18-2015, 12:11 AM
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Chris5 is correct that you do not need to see the Radiance image to update. I suggest doing the Boot Mode Update as described int eh Tech Tip that comes with each update. Just load the latest update.

You do need to configure the COM port as Chris5 mentions as well. With the USB to serial adapter plugged in to the PC, look under Control Panel, System, Device Manager, under COM & LPT. Make sure it is set to 9600 BAUD, 1 Stop, No parity and select that port in teh update program.

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post #133 of 5825 Old 12-18-2015, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
jrp,

Thanks. I understood your suggestion was to move the Lumagen as a test - I just mean that given the way my system is cabled, this is a very daunting task.
But I'm running out of options so I might have to try it.

So the hypothesis here is that the new HDMI input of the new JVC projector is putting different demands on my HDMI cabling, in particular it's ability to communicate with the Lumagen, correct?
...

Just to be sure: I would move the Lumagen 2041 to the projector location, run the long HDMI cable run from the output of my Oppo Blu-Ray player into the appropriate input of the Lumagen, and use a 6 foot cable run from the Lumagen out to the Projector. And if I get a picture working ok, that suggests the problem is the cable and I should upgrade the cable?

What about Cat 6/7 cables? Would those be likely to solve the issue?

(BTW, if I do move the Lumagen and still don't get sync to the projector, what then? Would it still be a cabling issue?)

Many thanks.
You might first pick up a Monoprice Redmere cable of the correct length. I suspect it would solve your issue with less work than moving the Radiance.

Your synopsis of my suggestion to temporarily move the Radiance near the projector is correct.

I am not a big fan of CAT extenders. However, that might be an option for resolving your issue. I prefer an active HDMI cable, one of our extender at the projector end of a passive cable, or a fiber cable (e.g. Celerity).

If this testing does not give positive results, then we should talk more. Perhaps your Radiance has developed an issue. If you have a TV you can put near the Radiance, see if it gives you a picture (assuming this is less work than moving the Radiance to the projector) as a way to confirm the Radiance is still working.

Did I mention trying a factory reset to make sure there is not some configuration settings preventing operation? The Factory Reset is temporary until you go to STBY, unless you do a Save after the reset.

Please feel free to call us for support (503-574-2211).
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post #134 of 5825 Old 12-18-2015, 11:43 AM
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Thanks again very much JimP (and Chris5)!

I'll try updating the firmware. Fortunately, though this is a "Mac House," I had bought a PC laptop a couple years ago for these kinds of things.

Though, can I also do the suggested factory re-set without seeing the on-screen Lumagen menu?
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post #135 of 5825 Old 12-18-2015, 12:53 PM
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http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 120415- Fixup of initial temperature displayed when pressing "Ok" on remote to display status. Fixup of overlapping messages on fan setting menu in 120215-120315 firmware. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

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post #136 of 5825 Old 12-18-2015, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Though, can I also do the suggested factory re-set without seeing the on-screen Lumagen menu?
Use your remote.
Menu>0999

Don't forget to save after reset, or next time you turn on your 2041 it will go back to your settings.

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post #137 of 5825 Old 12-18-2015, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Use your remote.
Menu>0999

Don't forget to save after reset, or next time you turn on your 2041 it will go back to your settings.

ss
Ok.

Just to make sure, this won't change anything to do with the video switching right? I mean, as long as all my sources are plugged in the same it shouldn't re-set anything there? It's been a couple years since it was set up, and I can't remember if there was any setting up I had to do in terms of assigning sources which could be wiped out?
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post #138 of 5825 Old 12-19-2015, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Ok.

Just to make sure, this won't change anything to do with the video switching right? I mean, as long as all my sources are plugged in the same it shouldn't re-set anything there? It's been a couple years since it was set up, and I can't remember if there was any setting up I had to do in terms of assigning sources which could be wiped out?
Not sure what you are asking. But if its internal settings in your 2041, Factor reset means back to factory settings.
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post #139 of 5825 Old 12-19-2015, 03:55 PM
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I have a Lumagen Pro and am getting a RS600 (replacing my RS55) next week. I also have a huge Belkin HDMI cable running from the Pro to my RS55. Been rock solid. Am I going to have issues and/or need a different cable? Thanks. SJ

This is what I have 50 foot:BJC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/...hdmi-cable.htm

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post #140 of 5825 Old 12-19-2015, 06:06 PM
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I just hooked up my 600 today. It's a no-go with the Lumagen 2021 in the chain. Works fine when it's out. I have 30ft of HDMI between it and the 600.

Last edited by Pannus; 12-20-2015 at 05:24 AM.
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post #141 of 5825 Old 12-19-2015, 09:16 PM
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http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities

Utility 1.9 Available

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post #142 of 5825 Old 12-20-2015, 07:53 PM
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Sounds like it could be very useful if Lumagen was able to get one of these new JVC units in their lab for testing.
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post #143 of 5825 Old 12-20-2015, 11:33 PM
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Not really, it's a long length with plain hdmi, it's always going to be hit or miss. Either have a stab at a newer higher quality cable or go hdmi optical. Simple. That is what I had to do. Jim and co have got more important stuff to be doing that will improve functionality on the Pro for everyone.
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post #144 of 5825 Old 12-21-2015, 12:08 PM
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Indeed.. i have used a Pro with an X7000 and X9000 with no problems. Any issues are cable related.

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post #145 of 5825 Old 12-21-2015, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
Indeed.. i have used a Pro with an X7000 and X9000 with no problems. Any issues are cable related.
Can you be certain of that? As an example, I believe in Rich's case he had the previous generation JVC which worked fine and when he replaced it with a 9000 the issue happened. @R Harkness can you confirm?
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post #146 of 5825 Old 12-21-2015, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Can you be certain of that? As an example, I believe in Rich's case he had the previous generation JVC which worked fine and when he replaced it with a 9000 the issue happened. @R Harkness can you confirm?
That's correct.

Though I'm going to try an active cable to see if that fixes things.
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post #147 of 5825 Old 12-21-2015, 03:54 PM
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I tried the monoprice high speed RedMere HDMI 10' and 6' foot run. Cable works but poorly shielded so it added a little noise to my PQ. Back using Blue Jean HDMI.

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post #148 of 5825 Old 12-21-2015, 03:56 PM
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I tried the monoprice high speed RedMere HDMI 10' and 6' foot run. Cable works but poorly shielded so it added a little noise to my PQ. Back using Blue Jean HDMI.

ss

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post #149 of 5825 Old 12-21-2015, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
That's correct.

Though I'm going to try an active cable to see if that fixes things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
Indeed.. i have used a Pro with an X7000 and X9000 with no problems. Any issues are cable related.
With Rich's confirmation that all he did was switch out the projector with no cable changes, and the JVC RS57 works just fine with the Radiance but his JVC RS600 does not - with everything else being equal, means to me that it is not cable related. Wouldn't you agree? I'd like to know what Lumagen is planning to do to address it. Is is not just Rich having an issue. I'd like to consider a 4K Radiance but would want to be sure this issue was solved first.
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post #150 of 5825 Old 12-21-2015, 08:53 PM
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Using a Pro as I test an RS600, 40 foot Redmere cable, zero issues.
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