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post #2461 of 4854 Old 01-08-2018, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
I guess you are struggling with highlights etc., because up to 50-60% there is not much difference between LighSpace and IM
When I first switched from LightSpace tone mapping to IM I had problems which I described in this post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vid...l#post54473761
Sometime later a newer firmware resolved most of my issues. The IM settings now enable you to get the EOTF curve really close to LightSpace. But when you try to match both curves you have to be careful not to clip too fast. That is what I discovered just recently. So a little compromise seems to be necessary.
Karl did you also try LS custom gamma curve and IM on (gamma to 3d lut=hdr)? This is were I got better results. Picture regains its pop (unfortunately it is kind of dull with IM off) and highlights maintain detail.
Downside is that colors are a bit undersaturated compared to IM gamma 2.4 (gamma to 3d lut=sdr).
I have got some pictures from mad max and man of steel but they are really unusable.
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post #2462 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
Karl did you also try LS custom gamma curve and IM on (gamma to 3d lut=hdr)? This is were I got better results. Picture regains its pop (unfortunately it is kind of dull with IM off) and highlights maintain detail.
Downside is that colors are a bit undersaturated compared to IM gamma 2.4 (gamma to 3d lut=sdr).
I have got some pictures from mad max and man of steel but they are really unusable.
No, I didn't mix LightSpace tone mapping with IM. Have you tried different clipping and multiplier values in LightSpace so it doesn't look so "dull", e.g. 1000 Nits an 4x?
Regarding undersaturated colours, I'm not really sure if the selected source colourspace would be suitable when mixing LightSpace tone mapping with IM.
Taking meaningful pictures of HDR scenes is always a challenge.

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post #2463 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
Karl did you also try LS custom gamma curve and IM on (gamma to 3d lut=hdr)? This is were I got better results. Picture regains its pop (unfortunately it is kind of dull with IM off) and highlights maintain detail.
Downside is that colors are a bit undersaturated compared to IM gamma 2.4 (gamma to 3d lut=sdr).
I have got some pictures from mad max and man of steel but they are really unusable.

Lumagens IM works with an expected gamma 2.4 curve for best solution, the undersaturated colors is more the issue of your colorspace and not gamma.

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post #2464 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
No, I didn't mix LightSpace tone mapping with IM. Have you tried different clipping and multiplier values in LightSpace so it doesn't look so "dull", e.g. 1000 Nits an 4x?
Regarding undersaturated colours, I'm not really sure if the selected source colour space would be suitable when mixing LightSpace tone mapping with IM.
Taking meaningful pictures of HDR scenes is always a challange.
I wish I had more time to play around with settings. I will do though. I strongly suggest you give it a try using a custom LS gamma curve with IM on and max light set to 4000-5000 nits (for Mad Max). Your opinion is valuable, perhaps it is something worth giving a try.
Undersaturated colors were more obvious before enabling IM though.
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post #2465 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
Lumagens IM works with an expected gamma 2.4 curve for best solution
I am sorry but who says that? I attach a paragraph from Lumagen's manual (page 27):

The second option for SDR output is to use Colorspace = SDR and Gamma to 3D LUT= HDR. For this method the calibration software generates the 3D/1D LUT to adapt the HDR EOTF of the source to look correct on the SDR EOTF display. If possible set up the calibration software so that this calibration works as if the source is 3000 nits to perhaps 5000 nits, maximum instead of the normal HDR 10000 nit limit. Reducing the expected brightness will allow you to set the Display Max Light at perhaps 2000 to 5000 nits, which in turn allows more room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to improve the image.






I do agree that IM in not responsible for the undersaturated colors as I noted to Karl too.

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post #2466 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
I am sorry but who says that? I attach a paragraph from Lumagen's manual (page 27):

The second option for SDR output is to use Colorspace = SDR and Gamma to 3D LUT= HDR. For this method the calibration software generates the 3D/1D LUT to adapt the HDR EOTF of the source to look correct on the SDR EOTF display. If possible set up the calibration software so that this calibration works as if the source is 3000 nits to perhaps 5000 nits, maximum instead of the normal HDR 10000 nit limit. Reducing the expected brightness will allow you to set the Display Max Light at perhaps 2000 to 5000 nits, which in turn allows more room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to improve the image.






I do agree that IM in not responsible for the undersaturated colors as I noted to Karl too.

I think you are mistaken by the way how the calibration should be performed. You mentioned Intensity Mapping, with the Intensity Mapping on, you should use colorSpace SDR709 or SDR2020, The Pro converts HDR Mapped video to
either HDR PQ Gamma, or Gamma = 2.4, it converts to HDR PQ Gamma, when you use colorspace HDR2020, then for sure you can use the approach of calibration with HDR EOTF adaption as Light Space offers, but you relate to Intensity Mapping, Intensity Mapping can be used with option Gamma to 3D Lut = HDR, but the colorspace should be used HDR2020, not any SDR as you mentioned. In the manual it states that if you use ColourSpace REC709 or REC2020, the expected gamma is 2.4.
Please read this as well https://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html

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post #2467 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 04:40 AM
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@loggeo
I'm no sure I read about your setup. What kind of display/projector are you using? Which colourspace and HDR settings are activated in your Display? How good is the coverage of the colourspace when you create the LUT?
Basically, I also don't think it is a good idea to upload a LS LUT with tone mapping and activating IM.
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post #2468 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
I think you are mistaken by the way how the calibration should be performed. You mentioned Intensity Mapping, with the Intensity Mapping on, you should use colorSpace SDR709 or SDR2020, The Pro converts HDR Mapped video to
either HDR PQ Gamma, or Gamma = 2.4, it converts to HDR PQ Gamma, when you use colorspace HDR2020, then for sure you can use the approach of calibration with HDR EOTF adaption as Light Space offers, but you relate to Intensity Mapping, Intensity Mapping can be used with option Gamma to 3D Lut = HDR, but the colorspace should be used HDR2020, not any SDR as you mentioned. In the manual it states that if you use ColourSpace REC709 or REC2020, the expected gamma is 2.4.
Please read this as well https://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html
I could be wrong. But this is what I read on pages 26-27 of the manual:
"HDR Calibration for a SDR Display (or HDR display in SDR mode)"
There are 2 ways of calibrating HDR while ouput CMS colorspace is set to SDR2020. I think this is clear:
1. Colorspace=SDR, Gamma to 3d lut=SDR, upload gamma 2.4 with 2020 primaries, enable IM
2. Colorspace=SDR, Gamma to 3d lut=HDR, upload a custom HDR curve from calibration software, then turn IM on and as the manual says "set the Display Max Light at perhaps 2000 to 5000 nits, which in turn allows more room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to improve the image"

The conversion of the gamma curve is not done by the ouput colorspace but by the "gamma to 3d lut" option.

Last edited by loggeo; 01-09-2018 at 10:00 AM.
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post #2469 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
I could be wrong. But this is what I read on pages 26-27 of the manual:
"HDR Calibration for a SDR Display (or HDR display in SDR mode)"
There are 2 ways of calibrating HDR while ouput CMS colorspace is set to SDR2020. I think this clear:
1. Colorspace=SDR, Gamma to 3d lut=SDR, upload gamma 2.4 with 2020 primaries, enable IM
2. Colorspace=SDR, Gamma to 3d lut=HDR, upload a custom HDR curve from calibration software, then turn IM on and as the manual says "set the Display Max Light at perhaps 2000 to 5000 nits, which in turn allows more room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to improve the image"

The conversion of the gamma curve is not done by the ouput colorspace but by the "gamma to 3d lut" option.


Yes I think you can use 2nd approach which will best fit to HDR TVs not projectors

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post #2470 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
@loggeo
I'm no sure I read about your setup. What kind of display/projector are you using? Which colourspace and HDR settings are activated in your Display? How good is the coverage of the colourspace when you create the LUT?
Basically, I also don't think it is a good idea to upload a LS LUT with tone mapping and activating IM.
Projector Jvc RS-500 using the ref.2020 color profile. Had a peak white of 99.5 nits if I can recall. When I get home I will post my custom gamma curve. I think I used a multiplier of 7, enabled soft roll off, upper start at about 80-85%, upper signal limit 4000, loaded screen max and min luminance.
Gamma to 3d lut should not be in hdr mode when profiling the display.
After uploading the profile, I turn gamma to 3d lut to hdr and max light output to 4000 nits.
Again I may (or may not) be wrong. But I found advantages and disadvantages compared to the gamma 2.4 method. Both use IM in the end.
Before anyone rejects it, a comparison could be made.
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post #2471 of 4854 Old 01-09-2018, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
Projector Jvc RS-500 using the ref.2020 color profile.
I would advise you to take "Reference" colour profile instead of the BT.2020 colour profile when you characterize/profile your RS-500 with LightSpace.

Quote:
Had a peak white of 99.5 nits if I can recall. When I get home I will post my custom gamma curve. I think I used a multiplier of 7, enabled soft roll off, upper start at about 80-85%, upper signal limit 4000, loaded screen max and min luminance.
In my experience 7 could be too much for your peak white. Maybe you should try 5 or 4.

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post #2472 of 4854 Old 01-12-2018, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk44 View Post
Hello Steve,

in a few days the 7 Nolan UHD Movies will be released.
As you know most his changing the Aspect Ratio all the time.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/117-2-...-2017-a-2.html
The Lumagen Pro has the option to chance the AR automaticlly, but I realize that the option is use, because there is a major delay, the delay times changed every time also.
Can you please take a look at it and try to fix it, for exemaple with of nolans br discs dark knight or interstellar

Best Regards dirk
Hello Jim,

after the all Nolan Movies are released now, can you please to take a look at it and try reduce the delay, now is around 5 sec. and backward 3sec.
This Delay get you out of the movies and makes the this very cool unique Feature, that only Lumagen had, unwatchable

Best Regard dirk

Last edited by Dirk44; 01-12-2018 at 08:18 AM.
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post #2473 of 4854 Old 01-12-2018, 08:26 AM
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Is anyone having power on issues via RS-232 with the 1212 firmware? I’ve discovered that my start up hdmi sync issues are actually the fact that my Radiance is not powering up via rs232 like it always had (11 series was latest I believe)

Using an RTI XP6 send % at 9600 8,1,N

Everything else works - standby, source switching, aspect ratio.

I never really though to look for this and just presumed it was a boot sequence issue (as the gear is in another room I don’t physcially see it)

Thanks

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post #2474 of 4854 Old 01-12-2018, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk44 View Post
Hello Jim,

after the all Nolan Movies are released now, can you please to take a look at it and try reduce the delay, now is around 5 sec. and backward 3sec.
This Delay get you out of the movies and makes the this very cool unique Feature, that only Lumagen had, unwatchable

Best Regard dirk
Not sure what you are describing. I watched Dunkirk, and that change from 16x9 to approx 2.35 was frequent and instant. I wished Nolan did not do this
as I could not use my masking for the 2.35 aspect, but the change to 16x9 was seemless

Dan
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post #2475 of 4854 Old 01-14-2018, 03:27 PM
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Hey guys, a quick question.

I have my Panasonic UB900 going into my 4242, with audio out to my Marantz. I also have my OPPO 203 going to my 4242 and audio out to my Marantz. The audio out is on output 1 and video on output 2.

The Panasonic has no issues, but the OPPO audio cuts out ever few seconds. Any ideas what is causing this issue?

If I direct connect the OPPO to the Marantz I have no audio issues (that is with a split HDMI out the OPPO). I do not use split HDMI when running to the Lumagen (Just the one HDMI out for video and audio).

So, I feel is is either a setting in the OPPO or Lumagen around audio when running through the Lumagen.

Thxs!

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post #2476 of 4854 Old 01-14-2018, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Is anyone having power on issues via RS-232 with the 1212 firmware? I’ve discovered that my start up hdmi sync issues are actually the fact that my Radiance is not powering up via rs232 like it always had (11 series was latest I believe)

Using an RTI XP6 send % at 9600 8,1,N

Everything else works - standby, source switching, aspect ratio.

I never really though to look for this and just presumed it was a boot sequence issue (as the gear is in another room I don’t physcially see it)

Thanks
Also using RS232 to operate my Radiance Pro (Elan Home Systems HC12)
Baud rate: 9600
Flow Control: N
Parity: N
Data Bits: 8
Stop Bits: 1

Power on % (with no terminator) operates normally with the latest firmware. Must be something else in your config.

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post #2477 of 4854 Old 01-15-2018, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyaji View Post
Also using RS232 to operate my Radiance Pro (Elan Home Systems HC12)
Baud rate: 9600
Flow Control: N
Parity: N
Data Bits: 8
Stop Bits: 1

Power on % (with no terminator) operates normally with the latest firmware. Must be something else in your config.
Thanks - very odd for me...if I drop to 11xx, power on is reliable. If I go back to 12xx, power doesn’t work (or works maybe 5% of the time)

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post #2478 of 4854 Old 01-15-2018, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_B_0673 View Post
Not sure what you are describing. I watched Dunkirk, and that change from 16x9 to approx 2.35 was frequent and instant. I wished Nolan did not do this
as I could not use my masking for the 2.35 aspect, but the change to 16x9 was seemless
The Lumagen is the only unit what will switch different Aspect Ratios automatic and you can watch movies
( Nolans Dark Knight and Dunkirk etc.) in the best way,
BUT at the moment with huge delay, what is my problem...so far so bad
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post #2479 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 01:06 AM
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The Lumagen is the only unit what will switch different Aspect Ratios automatic and you can watch movies
( Nolans Dark Knight and Dunkirk etc.) in the best way,....
Hi, can you describe exactly what Lumagen does with those kind of films?

Thank you
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post #2480 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by FidelioX View Post
Hi, can you describe exactly what Lumagen does with those kind of films?

Thank you

If you have a fixed height 2.35:1 or 2.4:1 screen then, with auto aspect control in lumagen set to ON the scaler looks for black bars or for flags in the digital signal to work out what aspect the actual content on screen is. It then automatically switches to that aspect ratio. So imagine this scenatio

You put in your UHD disc and the splash screen menu comes up asking you if you want to play, select a scene, go to extras etc. The scaler will see this as 16:9 and will be in 16:9 aspect. If you have set up your STYLE setting correctly you will have 16:9 content displayed in middle of the 2.35:1 screen. You then select to play the movie. The movie starts and the scaler sees that it is 2.35:1 content and it automatically switches to 2.35:1 aspect and the image fills the 2.35:1 screen. That is very cool...

Now imagine the above but....you are watching one of those really annoying Nolan films that has IMAX sections dropped in. What happens is that you are watching in 2.35:1 and then suddenly a short 20 second section of IMAX at perhaps 1.85:1 aspect is dropped in. The scaler takes several seconds to determine what has happened and when it does it jumps to 16:9 aspect and the scene is now rendered in the middle of the 2.35:1 screen. Then that scene ends and it's back to the 2.35:1 content...and again it takes a few seconds for the scaler to determine that the aspect has changed. so for a few seconds you get 2.35:1 content displayed inside a 16:9 area inside the 2.35:1 screen...until it suddenly pops out to fill the screen when the auto aspect kicks in. I love the auto aspect with scope shaped screens...i hate IMAX sections in films. I especially hate it when you get three different aspect ratios in a film..imho it just throws you out of the movie.
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post #2481 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 02:44 AM
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Gordon,
What are the settings to activate this function?

Thank you
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post #2482 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 03:02 AM
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MENU>INPUT>OPTIONS>ASPECT SETUP>AUTO ASPECT> and choose the option you want
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post #2483 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 06:44 AM
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thank you for the perfect explaining gordon!

That is the reason, why I ask Jim to try to reduce the delay in that cool feature!
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post #2484 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 08:48 AM
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New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

Chromapure now has the option to auto calibrate HDR. I thought I would give it a try. One of the initial steps is setting brightness for HDR. Tom states, though, that this may differ from SDR. How should I set brightness specifically for HDR?

Jim discusses how to set both optical and digital black level in a recent pdf. To set HDR black level is it simply a matter of having an HDR source as the current input and adjusting optical/digital black per his instructions?


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Last edited by mskreis; 01-16-2018 at 08:58 AM.
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post #2485 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
If you have a fixed height 2.35:1 or 2.4:1 screen then, with auto aspect control in lumagen set to ON the scaler looks for black bars or for flags in the digital signal to work out what aspect the actual content on screen is. It then automatically switches to that aspect ratio. So imagine this scenatio

You put in your UHD disc and the splash screen menu comes up asking you if you want to play, select a scene, go to extras etc. The scaler will see this as 16:9 and will be in 16:9 aspect. If you have set up your STYLE setting correctly you will have 16:9 content displayed in middle of the 2.35:1 screen. You then select to play the movie. The movie starts and the scaler sees that it is 2.35:1 content and it automatically switches to 2.35:1 aspect and the image fills the 2.35:1 screen. That is very cool...
I would love to use this feature but if I recall correctly, the Lumagen doesn't just scale (or limit scaling to) 16x9 to fit inside a 2.35:1 fixed screen. It performs scaling on the 2.35:1 image as well (which degrades the image quality).

If I'm wrong, please correct me!

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post #2486 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mskreis View Post
Chromapure now has the option to auto calibrate HDR. I thought I would give it a try. One of the initial steps is setting brightness for HDR. Tom states, though, that this may differ from SDR. How should I set brightness specifically for HDR?
That depends on what you mean by 'brightness'? And what display are you working with?

If you mean peak luminance, this can be whatever you want it to be depending on the performance of your display. I imagine most people just run at or close to the maximum their display can produce, though some may back down lower than this if it has a negative impact on other image factors such as contrast etc.

If you mean black level, this is set in the usual way using an appropriate black level test pattern (I find the R Masciola test disc best for this).

If you mean average picture brightness (which is set initially by the Display Max Light setting) this is the trickiest of all, and something i have a problem with. There are no set standards for calibrating this, and most people do it by eye using real material, with reference to either the approximate comparable levels for the same scene on the SDR blu-ray (though that is not always appropriate because they are mastered differently), or by comparison to a reference display such a a flat panel with high peak luminance (more useful if calibrating a projector).

I am surprised no approximate standard has been determined yet for setting this kind of average brightness for the nit-for-nit range - I would have thought for example that a 40 IRE windowed pattern should be roughly a similar brightness level on most displays, and should fall in the nit-for-nit range on most displays? It might be an interesting exercise if we were all to compare that measure

EDIT: I see you have added to your post. Yes for black level use a black level pattern in the normal way, but with a HDR input. As I say, I prefer flashing patterns for black level, so I prefer the R Masciola patterns.
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post #2487 of 4854 Old 01-16-2018, 11:07 AM
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Ian: No, 2.35:1 material is not scaled at all. it is displayed 1:1 pixel matched unless you are also adding in some shrink etc. If you had an anamorphic lens system then it would have to scale 2.35:1 and 16:9 and 4:3 content..but without a secondary lens 2.35:1 content would be displayed just as if you were using a lens zoom memory.
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post #2488 of 4854 Old 01-17-2018, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
Ian: No, 2.35:1 material is not scaled at all. it is displayed 1:1 pixel matched unless you are also adding in some shrink etc. If you had an anamorphic lens system then it would have to scale 2.35:1 and 16:9 and 4:3 content..but without a secondary lens 2.35:1 content would be displayed just as if you were using a lens zoom memory.
Hi Gordon,
I'm in confusion.
I own a 2.35:1 fixed screen.
My projector perfectly fill my screen when watching 2.35:1 content.

When I see 16:9 films I created a shrinked style that I recall with "mem B" of my pro.

This new function can automatically recall my shrinked style?

I ask to you this because I just tried the function on my pro and the results is the opposite... I see the Radiance that zoom in letterbox material....

Thank you
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post #2489 of 4854 Old 01-17-2018, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FidelioX View Post
Hi Gordon,
I'm in confusion.
I own a 2.35:1 fixed screen.
My projector perfectly fill my screen when watching 2.35:1 content.

When I see 16:9 films I created a shrinked style that I recall with "mem B" of my pro.

This new function can automatically recall my shrinked style?

I ask to you this because I just tried the function on my pro and the results is the opposite... I see the Radiance that zoom in letterbox material....

Thank you
this is not a new feature. It's been in the Pro since around day 1 i think....You're scaler is configured differently. You need to change the STYLE setting that is in use on MEMA by following the information in the TECH TIP 16 available for download here

http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_Wide...ens_071416.pdf

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post #2490 of 4854 Old 01-17-2018, 11:12 AM
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JVC MPC issue

Up until recently my JVC RS600 (paired with Lumagen Pro Radiance) always reported 1080p source material as 1080p60 or 24 and UHD 4K bluray as 2160x3840. Now it reports 2160x3840 for 1080p source material even though Lumagen reports it is sending 1080p to the projector. The only remedy I have to force the RS600 to report 1080p is to enter Lumagen command MENU 027. I have been through Lumagen's menu structure over and over but have not been able to identify some setting that accounts for this behavior.

Of course this is not the end of the world. I just don't like not having the choice of using 4K e-shift, or not, with 1080p sources. The only thing I can think of is that something unintended took place in one the more recent Lumagen firmware upgrades.

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