New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 98 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3926Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2911 of 5592 Old 04-07-2018, 03:52 AM
Senior Member
 
KarlKlammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Liked: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_t View Post
Actually I would like to add in Radiance-GUI the possibility to set up HDR intensity mapping (shape, transition, gamma, black) according to a data base built with users's experience. For example, Radiance GUI would allow to select a film in this data base and Radiance-GUI would inject the IM settings. Of course those settings depend of Max display light value but I believe this feature could be helpful for users as starting point to fine tune IM.

Radiance-GUI would be also used for collecting statistics and other useful information about HDR and the film watched with the possibility to send automatically those information to me for feeding the data base.

With this HW solution, connecting Radiance-GUI to Radiance becomes handier and this kind of feature would make sense.
Taking a Serial Device Server and Radiance-GUI as base for automation sounds like a really good idea.
Although my IM parameters for ratio, shape and transition are pretty static. But I think it would be very interesting if it is possible to inject overrides for maxCLL (menu 0533). When I'm not using the profiler I take the information from this list:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=184653968

Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3

Last edited by KarlKlammer; 04-07-2018 at 04:58 AM.
KarlKlammer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2912 of 5592 Old 04-08-2018, 01:33 PM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,170
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2558 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
updated...


Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes
Press Menu then...

0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)
Add 0997 to save to backup config location?
Mike_WI likes this.
bobof is online now  
post #2913 of 5592 Old 04-08-2018, 03:27 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Mike_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes

Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes
Press Menu then...


029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code.
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code.
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vid...l#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler"
Command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4.
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On
0870 - Set default Auto output mode. This clears manual output overrides
0871 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 1080p50, 1080p60 based on input rate
0872 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate
0873 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0874 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0876 - Set output as 2048x1080 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0877 - Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0910 - service mode
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vid...l#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1).
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
0997 to save to backup config location
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)

Other:
Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.

Edits based on posts by: jrp, colinp, KarlKlammer, & GerryWaz, bobof, et alia
JFR0317 likes this.

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
Mike_WI is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2914 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 10:19 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Mike_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Arrow FW Beta 032118

Beta 032118
Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved).
Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p.
Added DSD (SACD) audio capability.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
Kelvin1965S, Surfdrifter and bobof like this.

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
Mike_WI is offline  
post #2915 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 01:40 PM
Member
 
scrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
Beta 032118
Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved).
Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p.
Added DSD (SACD) audio capability.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
This seems to have broken Audio on mine, using 18GHz output card (new firmware) into a Yamaha RX-3050 Receiver.

Will revert and retry.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk
scrowe is offline  
post #2916 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 01:43 PM
Member
 
scrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrowe View Post
This seems to have broken Audio on mine, using 18GHz output card (new firmware) into a Yamaha RX-3050 Receiver.

Will revert and retry.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk
False alarm. Needed a hard power-cycle though.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk
scrowe is offline  
post #2917 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 01:49 PM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,170
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2558 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
I've lost audio on mine too. Strange.
bobof is online now  
post #2918 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 03:03 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
cappy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: HHI
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Although some in this thread mentioned they had talked to a Sony engineer who provided certain settings for "Reality Creation" as otherwise with lower settings or "Off" the picture wouldn't be as detailed or sharp, I am not finding this now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Does the same apply for the 885ES?
Not to stir pot again, but here is quote from recent Sound and Vision review of the Sony VW885ES regarding Reality Creation:

"The VW885ES exhibits some of the same processing artifacts that I reported in my review of the VW1100ES and have seen on all Sony 4K projectors I've reviewed. This is associated with Sony's choice to turn on sub-pixel convergence to assist in dialing in the projector convergence before it leaves the factory. It remains on by default when the projector reaches the consumer and is undefeatable except in the service menus. Interference artifacts from this processing are always visible when viewing single-pixel 4K test patterns (typically as swaths of color across the screen, as if someone spilled watercolors on it), including full-field grayscale patterns up to about 45 percent white. The processing prevents the projector from performing true 1:1 pixel mapping to achieve the sharpest possible image and is one of the principal reasons why Sony's Reality Creation enhancements are needed to compensate and bring back a bit of sharpness—though Sony's position is that the processing improves image clarity and that the image would suffer if this was turned off".
cappy1 is offline  
post #2919 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 03:27 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Mike_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Question Audio issues with 032118 FW beta

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrowe View Post
This seems to have broken Audio on mine, using 18GHz output card (new firmware) into a Yamaha RX-3050 Receiver.

Will revert and retry.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrowe View Post
False alarm. Needed a hard power-cycle though.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I've lost audio on mine too. Strange.
What was your 18GHz card toggle status (for troubleshooting)...?

0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent


I was going to update tonight, but will hold off for now.

Mike

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link

Last edited by Mike_WI; 04-10-2018 at 04:43 PM. Reason: 032118 beta not 032218 beta
Mike_WI is offline  
post #2920 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 03:42 PM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,170
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2558 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
What was your 18GHz card toggle status (for troubleshooting)...?

I was going to update tonight, but will hold off for now.
Neither made any difference to me if I remember correct nor did powercycle. In any case, support responded very quick indeed and have issued a new update (though download link is broken at the mo and it is past my bedtime, so not tested it!).
bobof is online now  
post #2921 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 05:10 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Mike_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Arrow FW Beta 032218

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 032218
(replaced 032118 which gave no audio on out1)
Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved).
Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p.
Added DSD (SACD) audio capability.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
Surfdrifter and bobof like this.

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link

Last edited by Mike_WI; 04-11-2018 at 04:36 AM.
Mike_WI is offline  
post #2922 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 08:29 PM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,511
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 1137
In the “I should have tried that” category, I need to thank Jon Thompson in the UK for trying “reduced blanking” for 18 GHz output timing from the Radiance Pro to the Sony VW5000ES. We have suspected that some VW5000’s are not as good as others at 18 GHz, and specifically early units.

We have had issues in the past with non-standard timings, but Jon’s testing shows reduced blanking works with the VW5000ES, and dramatically improves the lock-on capability of VW5000ES projector by running slightly less than 18 GHz (reduces 17.8 GHz standard 4k59.94 rate to 16.9 GHz).

There are now three early VW5000ES’s in the field working with the slightly reduced output clock rate. All three have issues with the standard 4k59.94 timing. For one of these, the dealer even tried the new 18 GHz microcode which in the past has not worked well with the VW5000ES, and with the reduced blanking the new microcode works with his VW5000ES.

I want to note that reduced timing will work with some (most?) other 18 GHz TVs and projectors, but not all since we have had issues in the past trying reduced blanking. While the Sony VW5000ES, and two different LG TVs we have here, seem to accept any timing, the Sony HDR TV we have in the lab will only lock on standard timing (not an issue since it works well at 18 GHz).

Reduced blanking timing *may* reduce the lock time on projectors and TVs, since it reduces the frequency the projector needs to capture. For example, I believe projectors that lock on well at 18 GHz, such as the Sony VW885ES, should see improvement in their lock-on time with reduced blanking.

We are going to add menu and direct commands for “reduced blanking” for 4k50 and 4k60. This affects only 4k50 and 4k60 outputs, but can be used to reduce the output clock rate with either 9 GHz or 18 GHz output cards. The reduced blanking should be in a new release in a couple of days.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
post #2923 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 09:12 PM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,511
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 1137
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Has anybody ever wondered, what it would be like to be able to connect to the Radiance via (wireless) network instead of RS232/USB?
So, there are those things called "Serial Device Servers". I just got one from MOXA with two ports:
https://www.moxa.com/product/NPort_5200A.htm
...

So far it looks very promising. I expected more problems with my first tests. But long-term stability has still to be proved.
Very nice. We appreciate you sharing this information.

I actually bought a LAN to RS232 adapter a month ago but have not had a chance to test it with the Radiance Pro yet. If you have information we can share with others on details for setup and use, it would be great if you could email us at [email protected].

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
post #2924 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 10:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
ddgdl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 333 Post(s)
Liked: 309
jrp, any thoughts about the discovery in the madshi improvement thread, which Kris Deering said he communicated to you over the phone, about the hue shifts caused by tone mapping "illegal" colors in the masters of some movies, like mad max? Any plans for lumagen to address that somehow? I know madshi and others are still trying to figure out how best to deal with that. Curious as to your thoughts.
KarlKlammer likes this.
ddgdl is offline  
post #2925 of 5592 Old 04-10-2018, 11:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 032218
(replaced 032118 which gave no audio on out1)
Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved).
Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p. Added DSD (SACD) audio capability.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

I have Lg Oled E6

Now everything works correctly (now I do not have a black screen on the different inputs, now also the pattern generator works well in addition to Blu ray, Sky, Apple tv etc ...), now I'm really happy.

I realize and I am aware of the fact that it should not be easy to follow the matching problems related to the different brands of TV and VPR, thanks again for having dealt with the problem.

Last edited by mikigio; 04-11-2018 at 12:17 AM.
mikigio is offline  
post #2926 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 12:26 AM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,511
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 1137
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
jrp, any thoughts about the discovery in the madshi improvement thread, which Kris Deering said he communicated to you over the phone, about the hue shifts caused by tone mapping "illegal" colors in the masters of some movies, like mad max? Any plans for lumagen to address that somehow? I know madshi and others are still trying to figure out how best to deal with that. Curious as to your thoughts.
Yes, quite a few thoughts. I have held off. I wanted to gather data, which I have done, and then spend some time writing my response. Instead, here is the off the cuff version.

The Pro HDR IM output colors for the Mad Max sand storm explosions are correct based on the pixel data. The explosions are mostly burnt orange with some yellow, not the other way round. The data does not overflow the Pro HDR IM as we initially considered possible. A 1D LUT as used for the ARVE tool cannot process the Tone Mapping correctly since each color is independent and so color balance between R, G, and B will change when they are not supposed to, as in the explosion scene. I initially looked at a 1D LUT approach for IM and immediately tossed it as mathematically incorrect. Took all of 5 minutes to decide this.

NOTE: This is NOT a dig at the ARVE tool. It uses the hardware available in the projector (a 1D LUT) and does a pretty good job with what is available.

The term "illegal colors" is too strong. Rather colors should be "Protected for RGB" in the editing stage. This has been standard practice for many years. Not doing so means the colors change as one primary clips first due to how the color space conversion calculation works. Having YCbCr values that cause clipping in RGB is a big issue, but it is not an issue in the Mad Max sand storm scene (at least not for the Pro IM).

Saying one wants the explosions to look yellow when they are mostly burnt orange is like saying I want my grass to be pink. Maybe so, but no good way to make an exception in the math that does not also screw up other colors too. And you would of course be seeing the wrong color for grass. Does not make sense. Reminds me of people liking their whites to be blue because they got used to TVs in "torch mode."

Interesting side note: I checked the color verses temperature of a propane explosion. Going from hot to hotter you have yellow, then orange, and then red. So, the central part of the explosion being hotter should be burnt orange or orange, with the fingers of the explosion cooling to orange and yellow. In my opinion this is how it looks with the Radiance Pro HDR IM, and this matches the data on the disc.

I would be interested in seeing the sand storm scene on the Pulsar monitor it was edited on to confirm all this, but I am convinced it would confirm the Pro IM rendition of color.

There, I have created my own sandstorm.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
post #2927 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 12:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
ddgdl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 333 Post(s)
Liked: 309
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Yes, quite a few thoughts. I have held off. I wanted to gather data, which I have done, and then spend some time writing my response. Instead, here is the off the cuff version.

The Pro HDR IM output colors for the Mad Max sand storm explosions are correct based on the pixel data. The explosions are mostly burnt orange with some yellow, not the other way round. The data does not overflow the Pro HDR IM as we initially considered possible. A 1D LUT as used for the ARVE tool cannot process the Tone Mapping correctly since each color is independent and so color balance between R, G, and B will change when they are not supposed to, as in the explosion scene. I initially looked at a 1D LUT approach for IM and immediately tossed it as mathematically incorrect. Took all of 5 minutes to decide this.

NOTE: This is NOT a dig at the ARVE tool. It uses the hardware available in the projector (a 1D LUT) and does a pretty good job with what is available.

The term "illegal colors" is too strong. Rather colors should be "Protected for RGB" in the editing stage. This has been standard practice for many years. Not doing so means the colors change as one primary clips first due to how the color space conversion calculation works. Having YCbCr values that cause clipping in RGB is a big issue, but it is not an issue in the Mad Max sand storm scene (at least not for the Pro IM).

Saying one wants the explosions to look yellow when they are mostly burnt orange is like saying I want my grass to be pink. Maybe so, but no good way to make an exception in the math that does not also screw up other colors too. And you would of course be seeing the wrong color for grass. Does not make sense. Reminds me of people liking their whites to be blue because they got used to TVs in "torch mode."

Interesting side note: I checked the color verses temperature of a propane explosion. Going from hot to hotter you have yellow, then orange, and then red. So, the central part of the explosion being hotter should be burnt orange or orange, with the fingers of the explosion cooling to orange and yellow. In my opinion this is how it looks with the Radiance Pro HDR IM, and this matches the data on the disc.

I would be interested in seeing the sand storm scene on the Pulsar monitor it was edited on to confirm all this, but I am convinced it would confirm the Pro IM rendition of color.

There, I have created my own sandstorm.

I didn't mean to force you into an off the cuff response- I was just curious as to whether you were intending to respond (or whether any changes to the Pro's IM were going to be made in light of the discovery)
ddgdl is offline  
post #2928 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 12:53 AM
Senior Member
 
KarlKlammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Liked: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Yes, quite a few thoughts. I have held off. I wanted to gather data, which I have done, and then spend some time writing my response. Instead, here is the off the cuff version.

The Pro HDR IM output colors for the Mad Max sand storm explosions are correct based on the pixel data. The explosions are mostly burnt orange with some yellow, not the other way round. The data does not overflow the Pro HDR IM as we initially considered possible. A 1D LUT as used for the ARVE tool cannot process the Tone Mapping correctly since each color is independent and so color balance between R, G, and B will change when they are not supposed to, as in the explosion scene. I initially looked at a 1D LUT approach for IM and immediately tossed it as mathematically incorrect. Took all of 5 minutes to decide this.

NOTE: This is NOT a dig at the ARVE tool. It uses the hardware available in the projector (a 1D LUT) and does a pretty good job with what is available.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Does this also explain why Arve/LightSpace seem to be producing a more contrasty looking image?

(below a part of one of the Mad Max screenshots I posted earlier and also visible in my "Life" screenshots)

PS: I sent some information regarding the setup of my Serial Device Server to [email protected]
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IM_LS.JPG
Views:	79
Size:	36.9 KB
ID:	2388580  

Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3
KarlKlammer is offline  
post #2929 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 01:38 AM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,170
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2558 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 032218
(replaced 032118 which gave no audio on out1)
Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved).
Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p. Added DSD (SACD) audio capability.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
Audio is back, yay!
Mike_WI likes this.
bobof is online now  
post #2930 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 05:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SJHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 3,552
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1094 Post(s)
Liked: 729
Wow, finally got DSD after all of the years! Need to try this. Not sure this has ever been part of the Radiance line, but could be wrong. Next might be PIP!
Mike_WI likes this.
SJHT is offline  
post #2931 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 06:19 AM
Member
 
scrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Yes, looks like I must have switched HDMI audio cable from 1 to 3 and left it there, before rebooting. I was puzzled when I saw it was after all an actual firmware issue, but can see my HDMI is in 3 instead of the usual 1. So will reflash later and put it back in 1.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk
scrowe is offline  
post #2932 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 07:03 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Mike_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Liked: 320
I love the continued improvements from Lumagen.
May be even more relevant in a post-Oppo UHD world.

Mike
GerryWaz and Craig Peer like this.

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
Mike_WI is offline  
post #2933 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 02:25 PM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,511
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 1137
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
I didn't mean to force you into an off the cuff response- I was just curious as to whether you were intending to respond (or whether any changes to the Pro's IM were going to be made in light of the discovery)
No worries at all. Certainly a valid question to ask.

I had been meaning to respond, and I was able to spend less time on the response by winging it.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
post #2934 of 5592 Old 04-11-2018, 02:56 PM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,511
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 1137
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Does this also explain why Arve/LightSpace seem to be producing a more contrasty looking image?

(below a part of one of the Mad Max screenshots I posted earlier and also visible in my "Life" screenshots)

PS: I sent some information regarding the setup of my Serial Device Server to [email protected]
Both ARVE and Lightspace are using the 1D LUT (Lightspace also gets some help from the Pro's 3D LUT) for their Tone Mapping. This explains the color shift they have since in the Sand Storm scene Red is brighter and is (apparently) getting clipped changing the Burnt orange to more of a yellow. Also since they use fixed transfer functions they do not respond to changes to MaxCLL. So depending on how you program the roll-off for higher intensity you would see changes to color and "pop."

I am not sure why the contrast is different other than perhaps that we choose to "match nit for nit" in the lower intensities. The Pro tries to maintain the correct Gamma for the image, but this might not be as much "pop" as you want to see. Said another way the Pro HDR IM transfer function attempts to match what the camera would see for the real image, to the best ability of the TV/projector. This does entail trade-offs. No way to show a 10000 nit image on a 100 nit projector without making some kind of trade-offs.

For myself I like a higher Gamma even for SDR as I think it gives the "bit more pop" you also seek. So if you want more "contrasty" you can play with the Gamma parameter in the Pro IM parameter menu, or calibrate to a higher Gamma than our recommend 2.4 for "outputting HDR in a SDR container." I think this will get you where you want to be.

One other comment: More "contrasty" does not necessarily equate to "more realistic," but rather can be another case of "I like it better that way." Nothing wrong with that, and tweaking Gamma is a more reasonable change verses changing colors like in the sand storm explosion.

p.s. Thanks for sending the info on the LAN to RS-232.
Kelvin1965S and KarlKlammer like this.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
post #2935 of 5592 Old 04-12-2018, 06:10 AM
Senior Member
 
KarlKlammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Liked: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Both ARVE and Lightspace are using the 1D LUT (Lightspace also gets some help from the Pro's 3D LUT) for their Tone Mapping. This explains the color shift they have since in the Sand Storm scene Red is brighter and is (apparently) getting clipped changing the Burnt orange to more of a yellow. Also since they use fixed transfer functions they do not respond to changes to MaxCLL. So depending on how you program the roll-off for higher intensity you would see changes to color and "pop."

I am not sure why the contrast is different other than perhaps that we choose to "match nit for nit" in the lower intensities. The Pro tries to maintain the correct Gamma for the image, but this might not be as much "pop" as you want to see. Said another way the Pro HDR IM transfer function attempts to match what the camera would see for the real image, to the best ability of the TV/projector. This does entail trade-offs. No way to show a 10000 nit image on a 100 nit projector without making some kind of trade-offs.

For myself I like a higher Gamma even for SDR as I think it gives the "bit more pop" you also seek. So if you want more "contrasty" you can play with the Gamma parameter in the Pro IM parameter menu, or calibrate to a higher Gamma than our recommend 2.4 for "outputting HDR in a SDR container." I think this will get you where you want to be.

One other comment: More "contrasty" does not necessarily equate to "more realistic," but rather can be another case of "I like it better that way." Nothing wrong with that, and tweaking Gamma is a more reasonable change verses changing colors like in the sand storm explosion.
Thank you again for taking time to answer my question.

When I measured the 1D LUT in the past, the nit-for-nit range wasn't different to LightSpace (or Arve).
Another experience is that this "contrast issue" doesn't occur with movies mastered at 1000 Nits/maxCLL <2000 Nits. The only thing I wasn't able to resolve with those movies is a partly harsh clipping. By that I mean for example the rising sun at the beginning of "The Martian". The sun is a ring in orange color with a white circle in the middle. This kind of clipping also happens with spotlights or car headlights. On the other hand, IM preserves color information longer than LightSpace before clipping to white.

I don't have many movies with 4000 nits mastering / >2000 Nits maxCLL. And therefore those titles like Mad Max, Life or Magnificent Seven stand out slightly. My parameters for those movies ran through two stages. The first stage was to get the 1D LUT as close to LightSpace/Arve as possible. That meant a low setting for Shape and a high setting for Transition. But I found out that with those settings clipping was far to soon. Then I increased Shape and decreased Transition. But the downside of a correct clipping point was a subjective loss of contrast as could be seen in my "Life" screenshots.

I made some tests with the gamma parameter yesterday. To get a subjectively better contrast I set Shape to 2, Transition to 14 and Gamma to 8. But the trade-off is less overall image brightness and loss of shadow detail. And I have yet to check the 1D chart and clipping.

A last comment from me on color/clipping in Mad Max
Regardless which color is correct in those explosions, the way IM reproduces them, there are areas completely without structure, just a single color with a single brightness and hue. That takes away some image detail and depth compared with LightSpace/Arve.

Due to the discussion in the madVR thread and here, we now have at least a better understanding of the up- and downsides of the various tone mapping aproaches. As our displays/projectors have limited capabilites we have to decide, which solution works best for us. But I also think a comparison should be allowed to do. Maybe that way we find a point that really helps to improve a certain tone mapping approach.

Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3

Last edited by KarlKlammer; 04-12-2018 at 08:46 AM.
KarlKlammer is offline  
post #2936 of 5592 Old 04-13-2018, 03:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
Roland Janus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 542
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 34
anything planned on the auto-aspect feature?

I usually use HDMI+image but the credits often trigger the wrong aspect.

Also any plans of switching much faster, it would be very useful in particular for Nolan movies (I hate that).

How about a customizable value in seconds on how fast it would detect changes?

-roland
Dirk44 and Mike_WI like this.
Roland Janus is offline  
post #2937 of 5592 Old 04-14-2018, 10:50 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 16,153
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6866 Post(s)
Liked: 8099
I've been using a Radiance Pro for a couple of weeks now, to scale movies to 4096 x 2160 on my JVC RS4500, with my Panamorph Paladin DCR lens. Really impressed with the Pro. The scaling is outstanding, and while 4K Blu-rays look stunning, the improvement with U Verse HDTV has really been even more noticeable. That's my worst video source, and it's much cleaner looking. Plus, the video delay feature finally fixed the lip sync issue I had with U Verse. I'm very pleased so far !
Mark_H and Mike_WI like this.

Last edited by Craig Peer; 04-15-2018 at 04:30 PM.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #2938 of 5592 Old 04-15-2018, 06:40 AM
Senior Member
 
Dirk44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: leipzig germany
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
anything planned on the auto-aspect feature?

I usually use HDMI+image but the credits often trigger the wrong aspect.

Also any plans of switching much faster, it would be very useful in particular for Nolan movies (I hate that).

How about a customizable value in seconds on how fast it would detect changes?

-roland
I've been asking for this 2 times before, no reaction so far, I know theres a lot to do, to make this good unit better, Tone Mapping etc.

But I hope to take an eyes on this in the near future

Than you in advance
Dirk44 is offline  
post #2939 of 5592 Old 04-15-2018, 06:59 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Mike_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk44 View Post
I've been asking for this 2 times before, no reaction so far, I know theres a lot to do, to make this good unit better, Tone Mapping etc.

But I hope to take an eyes on this in the near future

Than you in advance
If you go to an audio (& video) show and look at the rack of gear, you can often find a Lumagen in the video rack.
Eg - JTR rack at AXPONA


Mike

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
Mike_WI is offline  
post #2940 of 5592 Old 04-15-2018, 09:15 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Ian_Currie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Holliston, MA
Posts: 1,707
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Thank you again for taking time to answer my question.

When I measured the 1D LUT in the past, the nit-for-nit range wasn't different to LightSpace (or Arve).
Another experience is that this "contrast issue" doesn't occur with movies mastered at 1000 Nits/maxCLL <2000 Nits. The only thing I wasn't able to resolve with those movies is a partly harsh clipping. By that I mean for example the rising sun at the beginning of "The Martian". The sun is a ring in orange color with a white circle in the middle. This kind of clipping also happens with spotlights or car headlights. On the other hand, IM preserves color information longer than LightSpace before clipping to white.

I don't have many movies with 4000 nits mastering / >2000 Nits maxCLL. And therefore those titles like Mad Max, Life or Magnificent Seven stand out slightly. My parameters for those movies ran through two stages. The first stage was to get the 1D LUT as close to LightSpace/Arve as possible. That meant a low setting for Shape and a high setting for Transition. But I found out that with those settings clipping was far to soon. Then I increased Shape and decreased Transition. But the downside of a correct clipping point was a subjective loss of contrast as could be seen in my "Life" screenshots.

I made some tests with the gamma parameter yesterday. To get a subjectively better contrast I set Shape to 2, Transition to 14 and Gamma to 8. But the trade-off is less overall image brightness and loss of shadow detail. And I have yet to check the 1D chart and clipping.

A last comment from me on color/clipping in Mad Max
Regardless which color is correct in those explosions, the way IM reproduces them, there are areas completely without structure, just a single color with a single brightness and hue. That takes away some image detail and depth compared with LightSpace/Arve.

Due to the discussion in the madVR thread and here, we now have at least a better understanding of the up- and downsides of the various tone mapping aproaches. As our displays/projectors have limited capabilites we have to decide, which solution works best for us. But I also think a comparison should be allowed to do. Maybe that way we find a point that really helps to improve a certain tone mapping approach.

I want to echo these concerns as I cannot get the Pro's IM to look good on 4000 titles. I have just about every title released and no longer use the Pro to convert to SDR2020 on these titles. Sony titles (e.g. A Few Good Men) result in obvious image flaws (yellowish/white blotches on faces, blown out highlights that I cannot fix) or a 'haze' on the image that dilutes the contrast.

Like several owners of the Sony 5000 I can successfully employ the Pro's IM if I output it in HDR2020 mode (which seems to retain the contrast but allow for increased light output). I don't know if it's that my JVC RS4500 colors are simply better in HDR mode (e.g. with a HDR gamma) or something else, but the difference is not subtle.

I get that there are compromises when trying to map a 10000 nit title into 100 nits but I think we need a bit more control over how it's done so that the image is not washed out.

JVC-RS4500 4k projector, Lumagen Pro, 138" 2.35:1 ST130
Panasonic DMP-UB820 & i7 PC w/1080ti running Win10/Kodi DSPlayer/madVR
Classe SSP-800, Bryston amplification, Wilson Audio speakers (7.2) + Buttkickers.
Ian_Currie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Video Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off