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post #3511 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
I don't have this issue. UB820 > Denon X6400H AVR > Vertex > JVC RS500 projector.

The UB820 will output 4K60 4:2:2 12-bit for Netflix HDR content; 17.8Gbps. It could be your HDMI cable.
I have the 820 set to 4:4:4. Could that be it, or does the 820 change it to 4:2:2 automatically anyway?

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post #3512 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
I have the 820 set to 4:4:4. Could that be it, or does the 820 change it to 4:2:2 automatically anyway?
Automatically since 4K60 444 10/12 bit is not legal for HDMI 2.0. It must be set to 444 in order to get any HDR from Netflix for some reason.
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post #3513 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Yes, several times.

- Rich
I will test later tonight.

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post #3514 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Automatically since 4K60 444 10/12 bit is not legal for HDMI 2.0. It must be set to 444 in order to get any HDR from Netflix for some reason.
Then perhaps it's the 25-foot length of the cable. It's 11-years old, but it's a high-quality cable. I don't notice any issue with any other source, including 4K movies or DirecTV.

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post #3515 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Then perhaps it's the 25-foot length of the cable. It's 11-years old, but it's a high-quality cable. I don't notice any issue with any other source, including 4K movies or DirecTV.
4K movies are 4K24, not 4K60.
DirecTV 4K is 4K60 4:2:0 10/12-bit, not 4:2:2 so it takes less bandwidth.

I don't know what the PS4 outputs.

For some reason the UB820 doesn't like to output 4K60 4:2:0. Seems to insist on 4:2:2.
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Last edited by claw; 11-28-2018 at 10:13 AM.
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post #3516 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Did you click the Create I/F button after setting Max Lum to 500?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Yes, several times.
@HDfury - Please consider automatically updating the Info Frame when any field is changed. The Create IF button is not needed. This would go a long way to reducing user error where the settings displayed are not matching the IF because the user forgot the hit the Create IF button.


The last Create IF value is remembered but not the UI settings. Since, users do not read IF very well, it would be much better if they all were remembered.


- Rich
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post #3517 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Then perhaps it's the 25-foot length of the cable. It's 11-years old, but it's a high-quality cable. I don't notice any issue with any other source, including 4K movies or DirecTV.

Because you never played any 18Gbps signal yet when testing those sources, sources are content nowadays. Claw is right.
You can be happy to have a picture with 11 year old cable. It should be of good quality and you will have hard time finding anything of good quality today

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
@HDfury - Please consider automatically updating the Info Frame when any field is changed. The Create IF button is not needed. This would go a long way to reducing user error where the settings displayed are not matching the IF because the user forgot the hit the Create IF button.


The last Create IF value is remembered but not the UI settings. Since, users do not read IF very well, it would be much better if they all were remembered.


- Rich

I'm not following sorry, you said above to Claw that you tried to click Create IF many times and it didn't worked, so did that change now ?


I don't see the importance of this request, can you explain further ? What does it bring to the users in terms of features , convenience, etc.. ?
You need a HDR metadata, you set the value and you click create IF. or you change the value on existing HEX directly.


If value of UI settings had to be remembered in real time then any one click a drop down or trying to adjust a field would make a save request and mod the original default string, so they would need to reflash the firmware or know the original metadata value if they move anything and need/wants to come back to default.


Someone convince me your solution give less support headhache please.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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post #3518 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 01:28 PM
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Observations:

1. Both the IF string value and the values of the Edit controls reported by the GUI after a GUI restart revert to the default values. This may be by design.

2. GUI does not report the modified HDR metadata values. This should be by design as it is reporting the input HDR.

3. I can get the OSD to report the modified metadata values, but if I uncheck, and then recheck either Enable button, the OSD will go back to reporting the original metadata values for the content. I think this is just a reporting issue as I can see my LG B7A OLED picture brighten when checkbox is checked and darken when unchecked. I set very low values for the metadata so that the difference in picture brightness would be obvious due to the LG tone mapping algorithms. Whereas if I set the metadata values to match those of the disc, an uncheck/check of the Enable button results in no difference in picture brightness.


If the OSD reporting is confirmed to be an issue and fixed, it should address most of the concerns.

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Last edited by claw; 11-28-2018 at 01:59 PM.
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post #3519 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post

I don't see the importance of this request, can you explain further ? What does it bring to the users in terms of features , convenience, etc.. ?
You need a HDR metadata, you set the value and you click create IF. or you change the value on existing HEX directly.


If value of UI settings had to be remembered in real time then any one click a drop down or trying to adjust a field would make a save request and mod the original default string, so they would need to reflash the firmware or know the original metadata value if they move anything and need/wants to come back to default.


Someone convince me your solution give less support headhache please.

Currently, the UI are not in sync. When examining the UI, the user can easily be confused.
There also appear to be problems remembering the settings.

Users would like to select the custom Info Frame settings and have them applied when overriding when the selected.
The Create IF button serves no purpose and adds an extra step, that can create user error and support posts


Currently, If one forgets to hit the Create IF button, there are unexpected results.
The info frame text is not human readable so it is easily detectable.



There is a simple solution, keep the UI settings and Info Frame in sync:
  1. Remember the UI settings in the config file. (User friendly)
  2. When UI program starts, load the saved UI settings and create new Info Frame text.
  3. Add change events of each IF control to update the IF string.
  4. Delete the Create IF button (it is not needed)
The program is now simpler to use and much less confusing.
I expect that anyone trying to create IF strings, would be happy to see the string automatically updated from the UI selections.
I guarantee that if you change this implementation, you will have less support issues and you will have an HDR Fixer that works.


- Rich

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Last edited by RichB; 11-28-2018 at 02:13 PM.
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post #3520 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Observations:

1. Both the IF string value and the values of the Edit controls reported by the GUI after a GUI restart revert to the default values. This may be by design.

2. GUI does not report the modified HDR metadata values. This should be by design as it is reporting the input HDR.

3. I can get the OSD to report the modified metadata values, but if I uncheck, and then recheck either Enable button, the OSD will go back to reporting the original metadata values for the content. I think this is just a reporting issue as I can see my LG B7A OLED picture brighten when checkbox is checked and darken when unchecked. I set very low values for the metadata so that the difference in picture brightness would be obvious due to the LG tone mapping algorithms. Whereas if I set the metadata values to match those of the disc, an uncheck/check of the Enable button results in no difference in picture brightness.


If the OSD reporting is confirmed to be an issue and fixed, it should address most of the concerns.

1. Now that the excellent "HDR Fixer" has been added, it makes sense to remember the settings.
2. OK.
3. This appears to be a reporting issue which makes it hard to check for overrides. It would be nice if the override was accompanied by an immediate OSD display.


- Rich

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post #3521 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
1. Now that the excellent "HDR Fixer" has been added, it makes sense to remember the settings.
2. OK.
3. This appears to be a reporting issue which makes it hard to check for overrides. It would be nice if the override was accompanied by an immediate OSD display.


- Rich
The Vertex should remember the metadata that was written to the Vertex from the Create IF and Send HDR buttons. I believe it does.

The GUI does not report the last metadata written to the Vertex after a GUI restart. The GUI is used to set the custom metadata, not report it. As long as the OSD reports the metadata that you expect, it doesn't matter what the GUI displays.

The only time you should need to repeat the steps of setting the values in the fields, creating IF, and Send HDR is when you either want to send different values, or if the Vertex has been reset or perhaps after updating the firmware. Otherwise, it should be a set once and done.

Regards to your question about the need for the Create IF button, even the JVC Macros page has a Send button. Nothing changed in the GUI is applied until it has been written to the Vertex. The Create IF and Send HDR buttons are what create and write the custom HDR metadata to the Vertex.
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Last edited by claw; 11-28-2018 at 03:08 PM.
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post #3522 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
The Vertex should remember the metadata that was written to the Vertex from the Create IF and Send HDR buttons. I believe it does.

The GUI does not report the last metadata written to the Vertex after a GUI restart. The GUI is used to set the custom metadata, not report it. As long as the OSD reports the metadata that you expect, it doesn't matter what the GUI displays.

The only time you should need to repeat the steps of setting the values in the fields, creating IF, and Send HDR is when you either want to send different values, or if the Vertex has been reset or perhaps after updating the firmware. Otherwise, it should be a set once and done.

Regards to your question about the need for the Create IF button, even the JVC Macros page has a Send button. Nothing changed in the GUI is applied until it has been written to the Vertex. The Create IF and Send HDR buttons are what create and write the custom HDR metadata to the Vertex.
I was asked to give the benefits for simplifying the design. The change proposed makes the GUI reflect the Info Frame.
It's a simple change that has the advantage of have the UI reflect the HDR override.

HDFury added a new feature HDR Fixer. Now that it is in place, it make much more sense to have it behave like the EDID MANAGER page.
You can look at that screen and see the settings.
There is no downside to making the HDR IF page custom metadata behave the same way.
It makes the product easier to use, easier to support, and more consistent.
It's nice to have the IF string, but this string is not fit for humans: 87:01:1a:92:02:00:c2:33:c4:86:4c:1d:b8:0b:d0:84:80 :3e:13:3d:42:40:f4:01:00:00:f4:01:90:01

If the Info Frame stream is automatically updated and the UI remembered (like the rest of the product), it is an improvement.

The proposal does not change the SEND HDR button. Except, the user has a UI to show them what is being sent, which makes it just like the JVC Macros page.
I assume the MACROS page is driven by the UI with settings remembered when the Utility is restarted.

It is the HDR IF page that has this IF string, disconnected from the UI that is not consistent with other functions and the UI.
No one will miss the Create IF button.

- Rich

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Last edited by RichB; 11-28-2018 at 03:51 PM.
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post #3523 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
No one will miss the Create IF button.

- Rich
The Create IF button is required to build the custom metadata string from the value entered into the edit fields. You can't have entering values into the fields dynamically create the metadata string. There must be a button to indicate you are done making changes and to create the string from the values.

Just because some users don't care about the metadata string, others do. Advanced users may want to make certain the metadata string is correct after clicking the Create IF button or to make additional changes to the metadata that do not have corresponding edit fields on the GUI. Existing functionality should not be removed as part of this addition.

Those same advanced users may have pre-prepared HDR metadata strings that they paste directly into the IF text field when performing HDR related demos. They might claim that the edit fields are unnecessary since they create their own metadata. I have done this using metadata strings I have captured from the Vertex and stored in a Google Sheets Metadata document. I simply copy a metadata string captured from one title and paste it into the Vertex metadata text field and click the Send HDR button. Without the Create IF button, how would the GUI know which metadata values to send to the Vertex; the values in the edit fields? or the string in the IF text field? The existing implementation always sends what is in the IF text field and it needs to stay that way.

The Send HDR button is used to write the new custom metadata string from the IF text field to the Vertex. The Vertex then includes that string in the output to the display.

What HDfury has implemented is a small extension to the existing Custom HDR functionality. You seem to be asking for a redesign that HDfury may not be able to do due to the memory restraints already mentioned. And would likely affect existing professional users adversely.


I have just the one issue with the current implementation. The OSD does not always report the custom HDR metadata values, reporting the original content values instead. This makes it impossible to know what metadata is actually send to the display.
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Last edited by claw; 11-28-2018 at 05:31 PM.
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post #3524 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 05:50 PM
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Regarding the OSD reporting. I found that turning off the OSD, then turning it back on reports the correct custom metadata values. So it is just a UI event that is not caught and so does not send updated OSD information.

1. Create IF button.
2. Send HDR button.
3. Check Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
4. OSD reports custom HDR metadata values
5. Uncheck Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
6. OSD reports original content metadata
7. Check Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
8. OSD still reports original content metadata
9. Turn Off OSD and immediately turn OSD back On.
10. OSD reports custom metadata values.

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Last edited by claw; 11-28-2018 at 06:13 PM.
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post #3525 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
The Create IF button is required to build the custom metadata string from the value entered into the edit fields. You can't have entering values into the fields dynamically create the metadata string. There must be a button to indicate you are done making changes and to create the string from the values.

The UI elements serve no other purpose. Nothing is harmed by essentially automatically "pressing" the Create IF button after each change.
It can be emulated right now. The UI currently sends commands to the Vertex when you change setting on the EDID Manager page.
This is just building a string in a text box. No big deal. If you are changing these elements it is to produce a string.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Just because some users don't care about the metadata string, others do. Advanced users may want to make certain the metadata string is correct after clicking the Create IF button or to make additional changes to the metadata that do not have corresponding edit fields on the GUI. Existing functionality should not be removed as part of this addition.
Custom edit is not removed by automatically changing the values. If an advanced user used the UI today and pressed Create IF. The custom edits are lost.
Again, there is no purpose for creating changing the UI other than to create the string. Your done when you stop change the parameters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Those same advanced users may have pre-prepared HDR metadata strings that they paste directly into the IF text field when performing HDR related demos. They might claim that the edit fields are unnecessary since they create their own metadata. I have done this using metadata strings I have captured from the Vertex and stored in a Google Sheets Metadata document. I simply copy a metadata string captured from one title and paste it into the Vertex metadata text field and click the Send HDR button. Without the Create IF button, how would the GUI know which metadata values to send to the Vertex; the values in the edit fields? or the string in the IF text field? The existing implementation always sends what is in the IF text field and it needs to stay that way.

The Send HDR button is used to write the new custom metadata string from the IF text field to the Vertex. The Vertex then includes that string in the output to the display.
Pre-prepared HDR metadata strings can be STILL be pasted in and the Send HDR button pressed without the Create IF button.
There is NO change and nothing is lost.

The Create IF button destroys pasted data today. If design is simplified and made consistent, changing the UI custom settings will also update the string.
The advanced user can handle this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
What HDfury has implemented is a small extension to the existing Custom HDR functionality. You seem to be asking for a redesign that HDfury may not be able to do due to the memory restraints already mentioned. And would likely affect existing professional users adversely.
No, it will not adversely impact professional users because, they can still paste, edit and Send HDR.
What is lost is the paste, fool with the UI for no reason feature.
You can't take away functionality that serves no purpose and fiddling with the UI and not pressing Create IF serves no purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I have just the one issue with the current implementation. The OSD does not always report the custom HDR metadata values, reporting the original content values instead. This makes it impossible to know what metadata is actually send to the display.
I agree this is a problem.

In summary:

The change, in effect, auto presses the Create IF when you change any UI element to construct the string.
A user can do this manually today. Doing automatically is better since it is simply an aid to build the string.
When its done, edit it some more, if you want, then send HDR or now, automatically override HDR.

All CUSTOM HDR METATDATA GENERATOR settings should be remembered just like every other setting in the UI.
Doing so makes it consistent with the rest of the functionality and work intuitively.

Advanced users can still paste in IF strings, edit, and send.
There is no loss of functionality.

What changes is the HDR Fixer feature now works like the rest of the product where the UI represents the override and the user can see what is selected by examing the screen. The current implementation the UI is almost always NOT the override settings.

By its very nature, adjusting HDR metadata requires trying different settings on varied material.
This may occur over days. A UI that does not match the string is makes it a nightmare.

If you must have the Create IF button, that is fine, but PLEASE save and restore the UI custom settings and IF string.
It will make it MUCH easier to use. It should also be possible to display a message that indicates that the IF string does not match the current settings by creating a temporary string and comparing it to the IF text box.

The HDR Fixer is a great feature and deserves to have an intuitive UI that works well.

Amen

- Rich

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Last edited by RichB; 11-28-2018 at 06:27 PM.
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post #3526 of 4440 Old 11-28-2018, 09:41 PM
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TEST 1 AND 3 are totally useless. wrong use of the settings.
For test 4 you wrote, both checked, but the list only show one checked, so not sure what is wrong or right here.


So until you clarify test 4, only TEST 2 is a valid one, so what is the problem with the results ?


The sentence in green is correct and this is what I wrote and it is as per your test results 2.


For gui not saving, please explain what is not saved exactly, custom hdr metadata value ? box checking ? please be accurate.

PS: You have not unlocked the unit after the update... as usual I would say, may be we should put a special warning on OSD for you after update " Hey rich, please don't forget to unlock"













Yes I understand you need HTPC mode, I'm trying to understand what is the issue, so please see if turning HTPC mode off solve the issue you reported when you have to rst the unit to get a signal.
Monoprice certified or our cables, you can easily break them by twisting any ends, I would connect Integral and verify you still have same results than before.
Also please confirm length of these monoprice cable, given the back and forth, it would be nice if you can join our discord support forum to open direct discussion so we have a clear trace of everything, it's not possible for me to browse back on previous pages all the time, especially cause loading an avsform page here is very slow. That's why forum post should be accurate as much as possible in the first place (that's not a comment for you, just general for readers)
The Monoprice cable is 3 ft.

Strangely, I turned off HTPC mode via the iOS app (I have a GoBlue) and it seems to be working better. Not sure why that is... will continue testing.
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post #3527 of 4440 Old 11-29-2018, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Regarding the OSD reporting. I found that turning off the OSD, then turning it back on reports the correct custom metadata values. So it is just a UI event that is not caught and so does not send updated OSD information.

1. Create IF button.
2. Send HDR button.
3. Check Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
4. OSD reports custom HDR metadata values
5. Uncheck Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
6. OSD reports original content metadata
7. Check Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
8. OSD still reports original content metadata
9. Turn Off OSD and immediately turn OSD back On.
10. OSD reports custom metadata values.

Thanx Claw, will check it !

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The UI elements serve no other purpose. Nothing is harmed by essentially automatically "pressing" the Create IF button after each change.
It can be emulated right now. The UI currently sends commands to the Vertex when you change setting on the EDID Manager page.
This is just building a string in a text box. No big deal. If you are changing these elements it is to produce a string.



Custom edit is not removed by automatically changing the values. If an advanced user used the UI today and pressed Create IF. The custom edits are lost.
Again, there is no purpose for creating changing the UI other than to create the string. Your done when you stop change the parameters.



Pre-prepared HDR metadata strings can be STILL be pasted in and the Send HDR button pressed without the Create IF button.
There is NO change and nothing is lost.

The Create IF button destroys pasted data today. If design is simplified and made consistent, changing the UI custom settings will also update the string.
The advanced user can handle this.



No, it will not adversely impact professional users because, they can still paste, edit and Send HDR.
What is lost is the paste, fool with the UI for no reason feature.
You can't take away functionality that serves no purpose and fiddling with the UI and not pressing Create IF serves no purpose.



I agree this is a problem.

In summary:

The change, in effect, auto presses the Create IF when you change any UI element to construct the string.
A user can do this manually today. Doing automatically is better since it is simply an aid to build the string.
When its done, edit it some more, if you want, then send HDR or now, automatically override HDR.

All CUSTOM HDR METATDATA GENERATOR settings should be remembered just like every other setting in the UI.
Doing so makes it consistent with the rest of the functionality and work intuitively.

Advanced users can still paste in IF strings, edit, and send.
There is no loss of functionality.

What changes is the HDR Fixer feature now works like the rest of the product where the UI represents the override and the user can see what is selected by examing the screen. The current implementation the UI is almost always NOT the override settings.

By its very nature, adjusting HDR metadata requires trying different settings on varied material.
This may occur over days. A UI that does not match the string is makes it a nightmare.

If you must have the Create IF button, that is fine, but PLEASE save and restore the UI custom settings and IF string.
It will make it MUCH easier to use. It should also be possible to display a message that indicates that the IF string does not match the current settings by creating a temporary string and comparing it to the IF text box.

The HDR Fixer is a great feature and deserves to have an intuitive UI that works well.

Amen

- Rich
First we had a HEX string field on Integral, Then we added autochecksum calculation to it as people was struggling with checksum calculation. Later we added HDR disable.
Then we deciphered incoming and later added a an IF creator and recently override and EOTF translation, We also have now added AVI deciphered info and AVI creator on upcoming Maestro.


Now what you would like is that HEX string and GUI IF creator fields are always linked dynamically. I do understand that it makes things easier for you.
From my experience with users, most of the first time running GUI, they will play with GUI section, dropdown, etc... by curiosity.
Most of the users have zero knowledge on HDR metadata but they might need to use the feature just like you.
The problem I'm seeing with this, is that by curiosity, if HEX field is linked to GUI IF creator fields, users can change default value and render it useless and ENABLE CUSTOM HDR won't produce the desired effect.
While currently, they usually run GUI, visit section, check dropdown values, etc... and often close and restart when they have changed something they are not sure of.


Imo, it's a convenience request only, nothing of real value like a feature could be.
I do understand that for you and a few it might be helpful, however I'm not sure it's a good move for the majority.
I would like to hear others opinion about this discussion before asking anything to our guys.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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post #3528 of 4440 Old 11-29-2018, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I guarantee that if you change this implementation, you will have less support issues and you will have an HDR Fixer that works.


- Rich
HDR Fixer is working with or without this implementation change that you are requesting.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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post #3529 of 4440 Old 11-29-2018, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
HDR Fixer is working with or without this implementation change that you are requesting.
It is difficult determine because of the OSD issues and possible delay HDR override.
It’s a work in progress...

- Rich

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post #3530 of 4440 Old 11-29-2018, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post

First we had a HEX string field on Integral, Then we added autochecksum calculation to it as people was struggling with checksum calculation. Later we added HDR disable.
Then we deciphered incoming and later added a an IF creator and recently override and EOTF translation, We also have now added AVI deciphered info and AVI creator on upcoming Maestro.

Now what you would like is that HEX string and GUI IF creator fields are always linked dynamically. I do understand that it makes things easier for you.
From my experience with users, most of the first time running GUI, they will play with GUI section, dropdown, etc... by curiosity.
Most of the users have zero knowledge on HDR metadata but they might need to use the feature just like you.

HDR Calibration can require custom Metadata and this feature is not impacted.
Those folks use the paste and send feature but may also create custom metadata by filling out the UI, Create IF, and optionally Sent IF.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
The problem I'm seeing with this, is that by curiosity, if HEX field is linked to GUI IF creator fields, users can change default value and render it useless and ENABLE CUSTOM HDR won't produce the desired effect.
While currently, they usually run GUI, visit section, check dropdown values, etc... and often close and restart when they have changed something they are not sure of.

With the HDR Fixer, any user that does this with those options checked will experience a side effect no matter how the IF frame is maintained.

Any user that checks the Custom HDR checkboxes is going to have a problem that is not corrected by closing and opening the program.
The current implementation guarantees confusion because the IF frame could be something they were playing with is now permanent and the user has no idea what settings are applied without the OSD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Imo, it's a convenience request only, nothing of real value like a feature could be.
I do understand that for you and a few it might be helpful, however I'm not sure it's a good move for the majority.
I would like to hear others opinion about this discussion before asking anything to our guys.

It is a usability and predictability feature. I can operate it but it would be better of others could.

Here is a high-level view of the use cases and the recommendations summarized.

Use: HDR Injection (temporary)
This page originally was used to generate HDR string and allow metadata strings from other sources to be sent to the display.
This use is temporary in nature.
Resetting the UI is sensible for this use.

Use: HDR Fixer (persistent)
Adding the HDR Fixer bound the IF text to the Vertex operations and it is persistent.
This use is NOT temporary in nature.
Resetting the UI is not sensible for this use because the IF is not human readable and the user likely will have multiple sessions making adjustments.
Since the operation is persistent, the UI should also persist.

Recommendation 1: Save and Restore Custom UI settings and IF Text (If not already done)
Since the HDR Fixer is a persistent, configuration generated by the UI (likely) it should be maintained between sessions.
All other persistent settings are maintained in the UI.

Recommendation 2: Automatically Create IF
It is easy for a user changing the Custom HDR UI settings to forget to press the Create IF button.
The button could be removed and implicitly pressed when the UI is changed.
This works well for the HDR Fixer use case or the temporary injector use case and has negligible impact on the other cases (Cut, Paste, Edit, then Send).

- Rich

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post #3531 of 4440 Old 11-29-2018, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
It is difficult determine because of the OSD issues and possible delay HDR override.
It’s a work in progress...

- Rich

What are you saying now, the issue claw reported will be fixed, that doesn't change anything to the fact that HDR metadata replacement is fully working with or without your convenience request and with or without you agreeing to this fact, come on, you ask something, we deliver and now you are saying it's not working because of an issue that claw reported.. and "possible delay HDR override" ? what is that now ?


You guys must understand that every time you post such things, WE... who work for you, are losing sales and customers..
So at some point, you guys should think twice before posting "IT IS NOT WORKING" especially when it is and you are wrong.
You have the record here of post claiming it's not working while it is.
After each update you posted "it's not working" when in fact, you just forgot to remove lock icon after update.
Just above you posted it's not working and you told claw you tried several time and even when I asked you if it was working now after you posted about your dynamic request, you never confirmed.
we have to deduct that it is finally working and that indeed like all the previous time, you just didn't made it right in the first place.

"Thank you, I can automatically replace nits value going to my LG now for any HDR content from any source..."
> That is what our guys would expect when they deliver such request. It's positive move forward for the user and for us.


"It's not working"
> That is not true and not something anyone would expect after delivering what was requested precisely. People reading that won't order, while in fact, they could, since it would work just fine for them.





Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post




With the HDR Fixer, any user that does this with those options checked will experience a side effect no matter how the IF frame is maintained.

Any user that checks the Custom HDR checkboxes is going to have a problem that is not corrected by closing and opening the program.
TOTALLY FALSE AND WRONG ALLEGATIONS
The day we have some recognition from you we might consider again, for the moment we will fix OSD issue claw reported.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.

Last edited by HDfury; 11-29-2018 at 08:06 AM.
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post #3532 of 4440 Old 11-29-2018, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
What are you saying now, the issue claw reported will be fixed, that doesn't change anything to the fact that HDR metadata replacement is fully working with or without your convenience request and with or without you agreeing to this fact, come on, you ask something, we deliver and now you are saying it's not working because of an issue that claw reported.. and "possible delay HDR override" ? what is that now ?
...

TOTALLY FALSE AND WRONG ALLEGATIONS
The day we have some recognition from you we might consider again, for the moment we will fix OSD issue claw reported.
I think the problem comes from defining what "HDR Fixer" actually is and how you use it.
Since there is no documentation, it is up to the user to determine how to use it and how it works.
Perhaps it's me, but this has been a process...

Please do not misquote me. I wrote this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
It is difficult determine because of the OSD issues and possible delay HDR override.
It’s a work in progress...
The OSD never displays the override value.
Enable Custom HDR If Input is HDR10 works if you now how to make it work. More on that later.
After further testing: THERE IS NO DELAY PROBLEM

Because of the OSD problem: IT IS DIFFICULT TO DETEMINE WHEN AND HOW IT IS WORKING




This procedure works for HDR10 override:
  1. Use the Custom HDR UI controls to select the HDR settings.
  2. Press Create IF to create the IF Text.
  3. Press Send HDR. This apparently makes it live and saves it to the configuration.
  4. Select one of the Enable HDR checkboxes.
Others may find it difficult to utilize the HDR Fixer feature because:
  • the UI does not directly control the override setting (unlike other features in the UI)
  • the Create IF updates the string, but the string does not control the override setting
  • The Send HDR applies and stores the settings (makes it a permanent override)
  • Only the last Sent HDR IF is restored when the UI is restarted.
Given the implementation it is not surprising that the OSD is not showing the override.
For that to work, the Vertex must decode the IF into the display components.
I suppose that is necessary if you want the override function to support imported or edited IF Text not generated by the UI.

Here is the HDR string I last tested stored in the configuration export:
CustomHdrText 87:01:1a:b4:02:00:c2:33:c4:86:4c:1d:b8:0b:d0:84:80 :3e:13:3d:42:40:30:02:05:00:f4:01:2c:01

If you intend to decode the HDR Text to fix the UI, perhaps you can load the UI components at program start.
That would be a huge help.

You will have to decide:

A) As implemented, will users be able to perform all the necessary steps to properly override the HDR settings
B) Will the user be able to display the override values
C) Will the user be able to return from a session and make adjustments without re-entering all values in the UI
D) Should you support custom edited Text for overrides, or should it use the UI separating the features.

I don't know what can be done given the Vertex memory and other constraints.
But if it were my product, I'd drive the overrides from the UI and decouple it from the last Send HDR string.
That would remove the interaction between old and new features.

I'll test the next version when available.

- Rich

Oppo UPD-205 x 2 | UPD-203 | Sonica DAC | Emotiva XMC-1 (v3) | Revel Salon2s, Voice2, Studio2s | Benchmark AHB2 x 4 | ATI AT522NC | Velodyne HGS-15 | LG 77C9 | Lumagen 2020 | HDFury Vertex x 2

Last edited by RichB; 11-29-2018 at 07:36 PM.
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post #3533 of 4440 Old 11-30-2018, 07:42 AM
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My Vertex now works using selected hardware switch settings on the Vertex. It converts 4K HDR and Non-HDR to 1080P SDR. As I read all of these posts it looks like there is a lot more power in the product than I am using. Too bad the User Manual isn't written in a way that a non-tech like me can understand and use this additional power.

Also, HDFury might be able to sell a lot more boxes if they developed loadable software that tuned the picture for most of the devices that feed the Vertex. Remember the 80/20 rule. 20% of your product equals 80% of your potential. This means that you could tune 20% of available source boxes and that would be 80% of your prospect base. So if you developed packages for Roku, Firestick, Chromecast, ATV, Directv, and a few UHD BR players, you would reach 80% of your audience. The program would operate inside the GUI program.

Jack
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post #3534 of 4440 Old 11-30-2018, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Regarding the OSD reporting. I found that turning off the OSD, then turning it back on reports the correct custom metadata values. So it is just a UI event that is not caught and so does not send updated OSD information.

1. Create IF button.
2. Send HDR button.
3. Check Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
4. OSD reports custom HDR metadata values
5. Uncheck Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
6. OSD reports original content metadata
7. Check Enable Custom HDR checkbox.
8. OSD still reports original content metadata
9. Turn Off OSD and immediately turn OSD back On.
10. OSD reports custom metadata values.

Hi Claw,


Attached FPGA update that should solve the issue you found here.


https://www.hdfury.com/tools/Vertex_...9_GUI_1.34.zip


Please let us know if it's ok when you have time.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.

Last edited by HDfury; 11-30-2018 at 10:34 AM.
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post #3535 of 4440 Old 11-30-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
My Vertex now works using selected hardware switch settings on the Vertex. It converts 4K HDR and Non-HDR to 1080P SDR. As I read all of these posts it looks like there is a lot more power in the product than I am using. Too bad the User Manual isn't written in a way that a non-tech like me can understand and use this additional power.

Also, HDFury might be able to sell a lot more boxes if they developed loadable software that tuned the picture for most of the devices that feed the Vertex. Remember the 80/20 rule. 20% of your product equals 80% of your potential. This means that you could tune 20% of available source boxes and that would be 80% of your prospect base. So if you developed packages for Roku, Firestick, Chromecast, ATV, Directv, and a few UHD BR players, you would reach 80% of your audience. The program would operate inside the GUI program.

Vertex cannot convert 4K HDR to 1080p SDR as you wrote above, you need to add a HDR > SDR converter for that, in the world, there is 3 currently (LRP-OPPO203-HDfuryX4) but apparently some cheap asic are coming out for that but results are crap for the moment.


Not sure what you mean by "software that tuned the picture for most of the devices that feed the Vertex" ... can you elaborate ?


Basically, in any of our devices, the sources are not so important, since we support all of them and get the max any of them can send in ... most of the processing work is done at output or in between if you prefer , because there we have people adding 4K60 4:2:0 10b max, 4K60 4:2:0 8b max, 4K24 4:2:2 12b max, or 1080p, etc... or HDCP1.4 or HDMI1.2 ,etc.... or non HDR or non BT2020, hundreds possibilities. Our goal is to support any sources by getting the best they can send in and then to do operations to allow any sinks and make sure all of them work at their best always.. and well.. it seems we are doing great in that since Vertex.


PS: Above update in testing is doing HLG only source to HDR10 only sink... so one more use case solved.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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post #3536 of 4440 Old 11-30-2018, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I think the problem comes from...
The problem comes from the fact that you request something, we work for you and instead of saying it works but I have some convenience request, you are saying it doesn't work because you have new expectations now and new requests.


We rely on online sales ONLY, when someone post something positive it helps us, if it's negative and true we will face it, but negative and untrue when we worked for you, is not something motivating for our guys.. please understand.


If you don't want to say thank you, at least say it's working when it's working.


The way IF is created and handled was like that before and it is like that after... never in your request you even mentioned it UNTIL we completed the request.
So why using that now to claim it's not working , not only it's not true, it's not even related and wasn't requested.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.

Last edited by HDfury; 11-30-2018 at 01:33 PM.
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post #3537 of 4440 Old 11-30-2018, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
The problem comes from the fact that you request something, we work for you and instead of saying it works but I have some convenience request, you are saying it doesn't work because you have new expectations now and new requests.

We rely on online sales ONLY, when someone post something positive it helps us, if it's negative and true we will face it, but negative and untrue when we worked for you, is not something motivating from our guys.. please understand.

If you don't want to say thank you, at least say it's working when it's working.

The way IF is created and handled was like that before and it is like that after... never in your request you even mentioned it UNTIL we completed the request.
So why using that now to claim it's not working , not only it's not true, it's not even related and wasn't requested.

When there is no documentation, a user expects to fill out the UI and it will work.
That is an implicit expectation. On the main page that is how the product works.

IMO, Here is how a typical user expects to use the HDR Fixer feature:

1) Fill in the metadata fields check
2) Check "Enable Custom HDR if HDR 10" box
3) Verify that the changes are in effect using the OSD

Did that work, Nope.
Then, we had a long discussion about the "Check IF" box.
OK, so then the procedure must then be:

1) Fill in the metadata fields check
2) Press the Check IF button to generate the IF text
3) Check "Enable Custom HDR if HDR 10" box
4) Verify that the changes are in effect using the OSD

OK, Does that work? Nope. @claw point out you need to press the Send HDR button.
OK, so then the procedure is:

1) Fill in the metadata fields check
2) Press the Check IF button to generate the IF text
3) Check "Enable Custom HDR if HDR 10" box
4) Press "Send HDR" button to save the IF string to the configuration
5) Verify that the changes are in effect using the OSD

OK, That works but:

The OSD display of the override was not working, so you cannot tell that it was working without resorting to extreme settings to observe the change.
The latest firmware improves the OSD to 5 step procedure now works.

If you are concerned about the Sales from posts on this thread, I highly recommend not accusing your customers of being ever demanding, false posting, and ungrateful
Also, there were other communication options open to you.

- Rich

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post #3538 of 4440 Old 11-30-2018, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
When there is no documentation, a user expects to fill out the UI and it will work.
That is an implicit expectation. On the main page that is how the product works.

IMO, Here is how a typical user expects to use the HDR Fixer feature:

1) Fill in the metadata fields check
2) Check "Enable Custom HDR if HDR 10" box
3) Verify that the changes are in effect using the OSD

Did that work, Nope.


- Rich

So now the problem is that we provide update too fast, we should delay till we have proper documentation or something...
We don't have proper documentation always available all the time because we are a small team working night and days to add features for you and others.

People are using Metadata creator for calibration and others purpose since day 1, they all know how it works, did you hear them complaining ?
You are making a story because HEX string is not changing in real time everytime you change a dropdown selection and you have to press a button a valid your settings and you don't like it.


Ok fine, that was the case before your request and you never requested it to be changed until what you asked was completed, period.


Sure... What you dream about and never mentioned, is not working as you want it... but what you asked and what was agreed to be done, was done and it is working.




Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Then, we had a long discussion about the "Check IF" box.
OK, so then the procedure must then be:

1) Fill in the metadata fields check
2) Press the Check IF button to generate the IF text
3) Check "Enable Custom HDR if HDR 10" box
4) Verify that the changes are in effect using the OSD

OK, Does that work? Nope. @claw point out you need to press the Send HDR button.

Claw just reminded you that you totally missed how metadata creator is working.
You keep listing how YOU are expecting the process to be, while you should adapt to how it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
OK, so then the procedure is:

1) Fill in the metadata fields check
2) Press the Check IF button to generate the IF text
3) Check "Enable Custom HDR if HDR 10" box
4) Press "Send HDR" button to save the IF string to the configuration
5) Verify that the changes are in effect using the OSD

OK, That works but:

The OSD display of the override was not working, so you cannot tell that it was working without resorting to extreme settings to observe the change.
The latest firmware improves the OSD to 5 step procedure now works.

We always fix any issue faster than anyone else, Claw posted an issue, he got a fix in return ! ... in what ? 24H may be ... business as usual I would say. I didn't hear him saying it's not working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
If you are concerned about the Sales from posts on this thread, I highly recommend not accusing your customers of being ever demanding, false posting, and ungrateful
Also, there were other communication options open to you.

Oh .. so you mean, I should let you say that it's not working ?
I will tell anyone he is wrong when he is wrong.
If you post something wrong by email then you got an email saying its wrong.
If you post something wrong on forum then you got a reply on forum saying its wrong.
I didn't started the communication.


For all the requested updates we did and provided so far, we always received at least a thankful feedback.
My concern is that on your behalf I'm asking devs to spend time on your request during an extremely busy period for them.
A bit disappointing to read how you thank them for that.


And for the small story on internet sales: a positive feedback will bring you may be one more customer, a negative one will cost you 10.
Now just count how many times you posted it's not working in this thread while it was working and then you will have an idea on how, YOU ALONE, already negatively impacted our sales... do you really think it's fair for us ?


We are not the usual/normal company, we are a small team working for the challenge.
We work around 16H/d on an average, sunday, xmas, new year included.
We fought the one that no one would have fought to preserve a few of all of you freedom and rights in AV.
The minimum requested is some respect and be polite then we will happily continue providing help to people. I don't think that is asking too much.
The day there is no respect and no please and thank you, then that day we will be gone. Not interested in working for $, we would be in another field if that was the case.
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Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.

Last edited by HDfury; 11-30-2018 at 02:34 PM.
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post #3539 of 4440 Old 11-30-2018, 02:29 PM
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Keep up the good work team hdfury. I appreciate all the efforts


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post #3540 of 4440 Old 11-30-2018, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Vertex cannot convert 4K HDR to 1080p SDR as you wrote above, you need to add a HDR > SDR converter for that, in the world, there is 3 currently (LRP-OPPO203-HDfuryX4) but apparently some cheap asic are coming out for that but results are crap for the moment.


Not sure what you mean by "software that tuned the picture for most of the devices that feed the Vertex" ... can you elaborate ?


Basically, in any of our devices, the sources are not so important, since we support all of them and get the max any of them can send in ... most of the processing work is done at output or in between if you prefer , because there we have people adding 4K60 4:2:0 10b max, 4K60 4:2:0 8b max, 4K24 4:2:2 12b max, or 1080p, etc... or HDCP1.4 or HDMI1.2 ,etc.... or non HDR or non BT2020, hundreds possibilities. Our goal is to support any sources by getting the best they can send in and then to do operations to allow any sinks and make sure all of them work at their best always.. and well.. it seems we are doing great in that since Vertex.


PS: Above update in testing is doing HLG only source to HDR10 only sink... so one more use case solved.
When I said convert HDR to SDR what I really meant was that using the EDID Mode Selection switch set to 4K60 420 8b SDR Stereo the Roku HDR signal came in and the HDR disappeared. At least it seem that it has because once I set it that way the picture looked normal. Before that, when I had the switch set to EDID Automix Mode, the HDR movies were washed out and dark. I used the word converted but I guess that was the wrong word. Just another example of a User Manual that is written for tech specialists and not for an average video user. It's why I suggest adding a User Guide to the product that describes the setup and use of the Vertex in a way that can be understood by a non-technical person.

By "software that tuned the picture for most of the devices that feed the Vertex" I meant you should develop a add-on to your GUI software that contained custom settings for each of the products I listed that would maximize the picture for the Vertex buyer that had one of those devices. Those devices are used by 80% of the TV and projector fanatics and 80% of those people are like me. They don't have enough technical expertise to get the best out of your product. It is kind of like developing a semi-custom calibration for each user. Do that software and publicize it on the forums and video sites and you would increase your sales by a large margin. As it is today you are playing to a very small niche market catering to engineer types.

Jack
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