HDFury Maestro HDBaseT owner's thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 423 Old 11-27-2018, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
@HDfury - is it yet known what the requirements will be for the cable between the HDBaseT transmitter and receiver? As in will CAT6 be required or will CAT5e be fine and will the cable need to be shielded or is a standard unshielded cable fine? I'm on a stay at home vacation this week, so it would be a good opportunity to run a new cable if what I currently have isn't sufficient.
I can't see any reason why it would be different to any other HDBT solution as they all use the same chipset families from Valens. There are two different grades of chip which vary in the distance achievable on a particular cable type - @HDfury are you in a position to tell us which HDBT variant you are using and what is the cable type / distance matrix for this solution? HDBT.org say 5E is supported, but recommend CAT6 shielded for high resolution / electrically harsh environments / long distance. Performance can also be affected by proximity to other cabling.

For what is is worth with my Atlona kit I'm using a 15m run of CAT6 unshielded which wasn't kept separate from other cables by the installer, and that seems fine at full rate (4K60 10 bit with VESA DSC compression to bring it under the ~10G HDBT hard physical layer limit). However if I was doing it again for peace of mind I'd run shielded and keep it away from the other cables.
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post #32 of 423 Old 11-27-2018, 08:06 AM
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^ Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with the limited number of HDBaseT chipsets. I'm currently using Crestron's custom HDBaseT implementation (they add some extra payload, such as IR, RS-232, and integration with their control systems) with standard unshielded CAT6 cables, but the Crestron gear I have is currently limited to 4K30. I'm seriously considering the Maestro because it would be a LOT less expensive than upgrading to Crestron's newer gear that supports 4K60. The cable run in question is approximately 75 feet in length.
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post #33 of 423 Old 11-27-2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I can't see any reason why it would be different to any other HDBT solution as they all use the same chipset families from Valens. There are two different grades of chip which vary in the distance achievable on a particular cable type - @HDfury are you in a position to tell us which HDBT variant you are using and what is the cable type / distance matrix for this solution? HDBT.org say 5E is supported, but recommend CAT6 shielded for high resolution / electrically harsh environments / long distance. Performance can also be affected by proximity to other cabling.

For what is is worth with my Atlona kit I'm using a 15m run of CAT6 unshielded which wasn't kept separate from other cables by the installer, and that seems fine at full rate (4K60 10 bit with VESA DSC compression to bring it under the ~10G HDBT hard physical layer limit). However if I was doing it again for peace of mind I'd run shielded and keep it away from the other cables.
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^ Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with the limited number of HDBaseT chipsets. I'm currently using Crestron's custom HDBaseT implementation (they add some extra payload, such as IR, RS-232, and integration with their control systems) with standard unshielded CAT6 cables, but the Crestron gear I have is currently limited to 4K30. I'm seriously considering the Maestro because it would be a LOT less expensive than upgrading to Crestron's newer gear that supports 4K60. The cable run in question is approximately 75 feet in length.



150M (500ft) on up to 1080P 8b, 100M (328ft) on 1080P 12b (Cat6a), Up to 70m (230ft) on 4K60 4:4:4 HDR (Cat6a)
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post #34 of 423 Old 11-28-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
150M (500ft) on up to 1080P 8b, 100M (328ft) on 1080P 12b (Cat6a), Up to 70m (230ft) on 4K60 4:4:4 HDR (Cat6a)


So what happens when you have Cat 5e?


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post #35 of 423 Old 11-28-2018, 01:51 PM
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So what happens when you have Cat 5e?


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Probably a shorter working length.

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post #36 of 423 Old 11-30-2018, 05:11 PM
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Maestro / Diva HDR Fixer

Current HDR Fixer section of Maestro / Diva and upcoming... already more advanced than Vertex (which is yet limited by memory usage)
It have all the latest requested by the community.
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post #37 of 423 Old 12-01-2018, 03:41 AM
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Where can I pre-order Diva. I'm impressed! I've been searching for such a device for a long time. Closest I can find is a Lumagen pro (superb product but way too expensive, don't need all its features) and Athlona 4K switchers.

Please don't put large leds on the front unless I can disable them permanently or with a time-out

My gear: Panasonic TH-42PF11EK pro plasma display + TX-P55VT60E -- Iscan Duo video processor -- i1 display 3 colorimeter -- i1 pro 2 spectrometer -- Apple TV 4K -- WD LIVE TV gen 3.
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post #38 of 423 Old 12-01-2018, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post
Where can I pre-order Diva. I'm impressed! I've been searching for such a device for a long time. Closest I can find is a Lumagen pro (superb product but way too expensive, don't need all its features) and Athlona 4K switchers.

Please don't put large leds on the front unless I can disable them permanently or with a time-out

We will unveil product page and product picture for Maestro and Diva next week.
There is no large led, just an OLED screen you can turn on/off at will or set a timer for. Same for OSD.
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post #39 of 423 Old 12-05-2018, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post
Where can I pre-order Diva. I'm impressed! I've been searching for such a device for a long time. Closest I can find is a Lumagen pro (superb product but way too expensive, don't need all its features) and Athlona 4K switchers.

Please don't put large leds on the front unless I can disable them permanently or with a time-out[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

We will unveil product page and product picture for Maestro and Diva next week.
There is no large led, just an OLED screen you can turn on/off at will or set a timer for. Same for OSD.
Any update?

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post #40 of 423 Old 12-05-2018, 04:50 PM
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Any update?

Working hard, everything nearly ready...


If you wanna see something special, I can may be help ... otherwise, wait a bit.... it's a matter of a couple of days..

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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Working hard, everything nearly ready...


If you wanna see something special, I can may be help ... otherwise, wait a bit.... it's a matter of a couple of days..

An AVS sneak preview

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post #42 of 423 Old 12-06-2018, 09:27 AM
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An AVS sneak preview
I'll give you better high quality views shortly.
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post #43 of 423 Old 12-08-2018, 08:46 AM
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Cool Maestro TX Central & RX pictures

Please find attached pictures of both Maestro TX Central and Maestro RX.
Product page will soon be available.
Beta test will also start shortly.


Hardware-wise, you have the Maestro TX (Central) featuring 4 HDMI inputs, 1 HDMI video output with scaling option and 1 dedicated HDMI full audio output at 720p or 1080p, LAN Control, HDbaseT output, RS232, L/R stereo or Optical 5.1 output, IR TX, IR RX, IR sensor, IR window, OLED display and 4 buttons on the side allowing to enter/exit and perform change in the device system menu.
On the other end, the Maestro RX device self-powered by the TX-Central is featuring HDbaseT input, 2 LAN port to share Internet connection with game console, TV or media player, 2 HDMI outputs with scaling capabilities, RS232, L/R stereo or Optical 5.1 output, SPDIF input, IR sensor, IR TX, OLED display and 4 buttons on the side to enter/exit system menu and perform changes in settings.
All inputs are capable of 4K HDR/HLG/DV/HDR10+ up to 18Gbps for video and support any sound format in existence today, all video outputs are capable of outputting 18Gbps and all sound formats as well whether they are on the TX-Central or the RX one.
Both units are always running in a Matrix/Scaler mode ensuring your setup remains optimized at its best capabilities.


Software-wise, Maestro is the first device to provide you full control via the embedded and brand new HDfury webserver ! The need of a dedicated computer with special driver to run configuration software or update is now a thing of the past !
You can use any web browser based device such as any computer or smartphone to access, control and update Maestro TX Central and Maestro RX, the process is as easy as visiting a web page.
We went further than anything we ever made and full filled Maestro with revisited and improved HDR management feature. We also added some new features never seen before such as TMDS switching for all inputs.
All HDfury legacy features remain present, each input EDID can be set individually from a list of 100 EDID, HDCP conversion, Scaling and signal operations such as Chroma/Color depth/Color space, PJ&Display macro, Infoframes modes, CEC command, ARC, HTPC mode, special modes, sound extraction and more. All setup informations are visible at first sight via OLED, On Screen Display or Webserver.


Please note that some other unique and special features are planned and still under development


Simply the world most advanced point to point HDbaseT solution for long distance 4K HDR 18Gbps/600MHz transmission via Ethernet cable.


PS: Diva picture, info and product page are also in the making. should be live a week after Maestro page.
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Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.

Last edited by HDfury; 12-08-2018 at 08:57 AM.
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post #44 of 423 Old 12-08-2018, 11:20 AM
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We do have other solution in the making that doesn't include HDbaseT, like we have a device with 4 inputs + 1 main output + 1080p SDR output (HDR>SDR on the fly) + Full HDMI Audio out on 720p/1080p + Ambient light + Lag tester + webserver, etc...
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Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post
Where can I pre-order Diva. I'm impressed! I've been searching for such a device for a long time. Closest I can find is a Lumagen pro (superb product but way too expensive, don't need all its features) and Athlona 4K switchers.
Because you mentioned Lumagen, just checking that you understood HDfury's post to mean that (HDR>SDR on the fly) is HDR to 1080p SDR output only. It can't do 4K HDR to 4K SDR.

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post #45 of 423 Old 12-08-2018, 12:09 PM
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Hi claw I didn't know that good catch. I don't have a use for that though so no deal breaker
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post #46 of 423 Old 12-08-2018, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Please find attached pictures of both Maestro TX Central and Maestro RX.
Very cool. I just updated the first post. Very interested in testing this hanging off the output of my Lumagen Pro...
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post #47 of 423 Old 12-09-2018, 04:35 AM
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@HDfury Since there is a beta test, Diva/Maestro will not go on sale this year? Better a good product than to rush things of course

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post #48 of 423 Old 12-09-2018, 07:19 AM
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Will Diva be able to act as an HDMI splitter also (pass-through 4K HDR/DV input to both HDMI outputs simo) or will the second output always be 1080p only?

Also, will it be able to convert multichannel HDMI audio to 2-ch stereo for the second output?
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post #49 of 423 Old 12-09-2018, 07:50 AM
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@HDfury Since there is a beta test, Diva/Maestro will not go on sale this year? Better a good product than to rush things of course

Yes we are delayed a bit, looking for end of January now.
Beta test should go well normally, apart from Webserver testing and TMDS switching new routine, most of other routines comes from Vertex and they are very solid already.

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Will Diva be able to act as an HDMI splitter also (pass-through 4K HDR/DV input to both HDMI outputs simo) or will the second output always be 1080p only?

Also, will it be able to convert multichannel HDMI audio to 2-ch stereo for the second output?

We never done any device that manipulate audio, Audio is always untouched in all our devices.


No Diva is not a splitter, but you can add Vertex or Integral2 at Diva output if you need to split main video out to 2x 18Gbps display.
Diva outputs are main video/full hdmi audio/1080p SDR


May be someone willing to maintain a first post can start a thread for it (we are not allowed), avoid mixing info with Maestro.

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post #50 of 423 Old 12-09-2018, 08:07 AM
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May be someone willing to maintain a first post can start a thread for it (we are not allowed), avoid mixing info with Maestro.
I'll maintain a first post for Diva. I'll try to do it tonight or tomorrow.

for your information and entertainment: a separate thread for Diva
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LLDV 600MHz is supported, no DV 600MHz support currently but it can change with the release of public SDK from Dolby this month.
@HDfury what is DV 600 Mhz support anyway? What does this limitation mean?

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post #52 of 423 Old 12-09-2018, 04:35 PM
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@HDfury what is DV 600 Mhz support anyway? What does this limitation mean?

Sorry, can you elaborate the question please


LLDV/HDR/HLG/HDR10+ are supported at 600MHz.
DV at 300MHz only currently might change in the future, still waiting their promised SDK (if you read previous pages)


DV at 300MHz means 4K24 4:2:2 12b and not 4K60 4:2:2 12b
However, LLDV works at 4K60 4:2:2 12b

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
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post #53 of 423 Old 12-09-2018, 05:58 PM
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Sorry, can you elaborate the question please


LLDV/HDR/HLG/HDR10+ are supported at 600MHz.
DV at 300MHz only currently might change in the future, still waiting their promised SDK (if you read previous pages)


DV at 300MHz means 4K24 4:2:2 12b and not 4K60 4:2:2 12b
However, LLDV works at 4K60 4:2:2 12b
I think the question was asking to explain what some of the abbreviations mean... "DV 600 mhz support" does seem a bit confusing or incomplete - obviously "DV" means Dolby Vision but what's the 600 mhz portion of it mean when combined with Dolby Vision? I'm assuming LLDV means Low Latency Dolby Vision (ie: the Sony version). Abbreviations are great and can save some typing, but they can also hopelessly confuse people too .
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post #54 of 423 Old 12-09-2018, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
I think the question was asking to explain what some of the abbreviations mean... "DV 600 mhz support" does seem a bit confusing or incomplete - obviously "DV" means Dolby Vision but what's the 600 mhz portion of it mean when combined with Dolby Vision? I'm assuming LLDV means Low Latency Dolby Vision (ie: the Sony version). Abbreviations are great and can save some typing, but they can also hopelessly confuse people too .
I think I answered that already, but here it is again:

DV or DoVi is Dolby Vision
LLDV is Low Latency Dolby Vision (Sony and LG as sink and X1X, ATV4 and sony players as source)


300MHz = 10.2Gbps = best/max 4K24 4:2:2: 12b (for movies) or 4K24 4:4:4 8b (for pc/game)
600MHz = 18Gbps = best/max 4K60 4:2:2 12b (for movies) or 4K60 4:4:4 8b (for pc/game)

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post #55 of 423 Old 12-10-2018, 12:07 AM
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@gsr @HDfury


My apologies for being unclear. Kudos for the excellent answer though! What I truly meant was, if you can do it at 300 Mhz, why not at 600 Mhz? Is it a processing limitation (not enough computing speed) in the FPGA? The SDK could alleviate this as you can just ask it for you want thus consuming far less resources?

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post #56 of 423 Old 12-10-2018, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post
@gsr @HDfury


My apologies for being unclear. Kudos for the excellent answer though! What I truly meant was, if you can do it at 300 Mhz, why not at 600 Mhz? Is it a processing limitation (not enough computing speed) in the FPGA? The SDK could alleviate this as you can just ask it for you want thus consuming far less resources?

Because to allow 4K60 HDR/HLG/HDR10+/LLDV such as 4K60 4:2:2 12b to go thru HDbaseT, there is some magic going on.. (which if you read since the beginning, I'm not allowed to comment on, devs words on it are: Feel free to compare our magic with anything else on the market)
Since DV source encrypt for DV display using DV string and travel in RGB container, we cannot perform the magic on the stream as we don't have direct access (if I got what Devs told me right.. it's new to me as well... be indulgent please)
So apparently DoVi SDK can may be help improve that .. or not, we don't know since we haven't see yet despite some promises... and for LG/SONY TV and ATV4K/X1X and other LLDV source, you can go thru LLDV mode instead and then you have 600MHz DV or LLDV to be exact.


This is the current state, everything we listed is how it is at the moment. We haven't listed anything that is not already operating well.

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post #57 of 423 Old 12-10-2018, 09:02 AM
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@HDfury is this only applicable for Maestro since you specifically mention HDbaseT? Ergo, DV @600 Mhz will work fine for Diva and already works for Vertex. If so, I need to alter my first post for Diva as I currently state DV @600 Mhz is unsupported.

My gear: Panasonic TH-42PF11EK pro plasma display + TX-P55VT60E -- Iscan Duo video processor -- i1 display 3 colorimeter -- i1 pro 2 spectrometer -- Apple TV 4K -- WD LIVE TV gen 3.
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post #58 of 423 Old 12-10-2018, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post
@HDfury is this only applicable for Maestro since you specifically mention HDbaseT? Ergo, DV @600 Mhz will work fine for Diva and already works for Vertex. If so, I need to alter my first post for Diva as I currently state DV @600 Mhz is unsupported.
Yes of course, this is only relevant for HDbaseT, any others devices from us, including AVR-Key, Integral, Integral2, Vertex and even Linker (not all DV support for Linker) do support DV at 600MHz, Diva also support DV at 600MHz
And even for Maestro, you can have DV 600MHz from 4 inputs at TX central and using the video output of TX central. DV HDBaseT limitation is only applicable to Maestro RX output.
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The way I understand this; DV600MHz/18G (ie something like 60Hz menus at 4K on the AppleTV4K) isn't supported on any HDBT devices at the moment.

The reason is that all the video data has to pass completely untouched through the cable. HDBT can't do this because the physical layer has a hard limit of around 10G.

The solutions on the market for getting signals above 10G into HDBT all involve some kind of compromise. Either you convert the colourspace / bit depth (eg 10 bit becomes 8 bit) or you apply some compression like VESA's Visually Lossless compression. In both scenarios you don't get the exact same video stream at the other end, so anything that relied on the data making it in one piece (ie full DV 60Hz) would be broken.

I "guess" a potential solution if you have the DV SDK is that you can effectively extract the DV metadata from the video at the transmit end, compress just the video to fit, pass the DV metadata unadulterated, and then re-apply the DV metadata at the HDBT receive end.

Whatever you end up watching above 10G on any HDBT solution will involve something going on with the video behind the scenes. There isn't really much magic as far as I'm aware, just varying implementations of the same kind of ideas.

I'd actually really like to see someone come up with a device which did true 18G over HDBT, without compression. It is possible - you'd "just" have to split the 18G signal into two halves, and send both halves down separate HDBT links, and re-assemble at the other end. Would work great for me as I ran 3xCAT6 to the PJ, but I guess it is not for everyone.

Hopefully Valens will come up with something someday soon which can do real 18G. Still really excited by the Maestro.
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post #60 of 423 Old 12-10-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
The way I understand this; DV600MHz/18G (ie something like 60Hz menus at 4K on the AppleTV4K) isn't supported on any HDBT devices at the moment.

The reason is that all the video data has to pass completely untouched through the cable. HDBT can't do this because the physical layer has a hard limit of around 10G.

The solutions on the market for getting signals above 10G into HDBT all involve some kind of compromise. Either you convert the colourspace / bit depth (eg 10 bit becomes 8 bit) or you apply some compression like VESA's Visually Lossless compression. In both scenarios you don't get the exact same video stream at the other end, so anything that relied on the data making it in one piece (ie full DV 60Hz) would be broken.

I "guess" a potential solution if you have the DV SDK is that you can effectively extract the DV metadata from the video at the transmit end, compress just the video to fit, pass the DV metadata unadulterated, and then re-apply the DV metadata at the HDBT receive end.

Whatever you end up watching above 10G on any HDBT solution will involve something going on with the video behind the scenes. There isn't really much magic as far as I'm aware, just varying implementations of the same kind of ideas.

I'd actually really like to see someone come up with a device which did true 18G over HDBT, without compression. It is possible - you'd "just" have to split the 18G signal into two halves, and send both halves down separate HDBT links, and re-assemble at the other end. Would work great for me as I ran 3xCAT6 to the PJ, but I guess it is not for everyone.

Hopefully Valens will come up with something someday soon which can do real 18G. Still really excited by the Maestro.



There is 2 ways presently, we have our own. a third/new/never saw otherwise we would not have tried or though about doing such product if we didn't have anything special in this regard. all welcome to compare as said. End of discussion on that.
Regarding 2 HDBaseT link, possible for 7000$ as you need to create 600MHz FPGA video buffer with lot of high speed ram otherwise you would have vertical/horizontal line in the middle.
You can easily test that using Integral Split screen feature, split horizontally or vertically, send each output to a HDBaseT solution and both HDBaseT RX back to another integral that will display the signal. That was tested back in 2016 if I recall well. you have horizontal or vertical line in the middle, because you need video buffer to avoid it and that would sky rocket the price. it's not our usual price range to do 7000$ device, here already Maestro is at a newer price level for us.
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