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post #1 of 485 Old 12-09-2018, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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HDFury Diva - Owners thread

Post all questions for HDFury Diva in this thread. Please alert me if any information is wrong and I'll correct it as soon as I'm able to.
I've gathered all information I could find, most of which is based on the Maestro thread

##### FAQ #####



Where can I order this device?
Diva is shipping now! https://www.hdfury.com/product/4k-diva-18gbps/
What is the HDFury Diva?
It is basically a Maestro, without HDBaseT, but with an extra ouput. A quick feature overview:

  • HDMI 2.0 18 Gbps 600 Mhz UHD device. HDCP 2.2 compatible.
  • 4 HDMI 2.0 inputs, 3 HDMI 2.0 outputs.
  • Main/First output can passthrough or upscale the video signal up to UHD (18 Gbps capable). 2nd output can downscale. It can carry 1080p SDR video + audio. The 3rd output is for audio only (video is black frame 720/1080p) and supports passthrough of all audio formats currently in existence. Remember: this is a video device, it does not touch the audio
  • Full HDR/HLG/LLDV/DV/HDR10+ support.
  • More advanced HDR fixing capabilities (see screenshot)
  • TMDS switching for all inputs. Most devices send +5V on their outputs when they are active. But the ATV4K, for instance, does this even when it is switched off. Diva will use clever pixel clock frequencies analysis permanently running in the background and will auto-determine whenever any connected device is sending any valid signal
  • Full LAN control via the embedded and brand new HDFury webserver. The need for a dedicated computer with special driver to run configuration software or update is now a thing of the past! Only a device with a browser is required.
  • Diva will expose more scaling parameters than Vertex as the latter has memory constraints that have been reached.
  • It can do UHD HDR to 1080P SDR conversion
  • RS232, L/R stereo or Optical 5.1 output, IR TX, IR RX, IR sensor, IR window, OLED display and 4 buttons on the side allowing to enter/exit and perform change in the device system menu.
  • Optional purchases: lag tester and ambient light

Diva tone mapping:

It can do UHD HDR to 1080p SDR. It cannot do UHD HDR to UHD SDR

When will Diva be available?

HDFury is aiming to ship in Feb. 2019. Pre-ordering will be possible in a few weeks.

Will there be a trade-in discount if you already own a HDFury product?

No, not at this time.

I read DV is limited to 300 Mhz. Is this true?

NO. The limtation is only applicable to Maestro if HDbaseT transport is used.
300MHz = 10.2Gbps = best/max 4K24 4:2:2: 12b (for movies) or 4K24 4:4:4 8b (for pc/game)
600MHz = 18Gbps = best/max 4K60 4:2:2 12b (for movies) or 4K60 4:4:4 8b (for pc/game)


edits:
2018/12/10:
- corrected number of outputs and their goal
- Clarified DV (Dolby Vision support)
- clarified that lag tester and ambient light are optional purchases


2018/12/12
- new info on discounts
- new shipping info
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post #2 of 485 Old 12-09-2018, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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@HDfury

I'm a bit confused re-reading the Maestro thread. The 2nd output on Diva, is it audio only or can it do audio + 1080P SDR video?

My gear: Panasonic TH-42PF11EK pro plasma display + TX-P55VT60E -- Iscan Duo video processor -- i1 display 3 colorimeter -- i1 pro 2 spectrometer -- Apple TV 4K -- WD LIVE TV gen 3.
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post #3 of 485 Old 12-09-2018, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post
@HDfury

I'm a bit confused re-reading the Maestro thread. The 2nd output on Diva, is it audio only or can it do audio + 1080P SDR video?



No problem, you can ask any question. Thank you for making this thread.


DIVA have 4 in / 3 out


For the outputs:


1 Full 4K HDR/HLG/HDR10+/DV/LLDV
1 1080p SDR to feed ANY SDR 1080p display or AVR.
1 Full HDMI Audio with black frame 720p/1080p to feed ANY AVR


All outputs offer full audio.
Just the special audio output does not offer video (black frame video)


Ambient light and Lag tester are two add on that you can purchase separately or with the device when ordering/pre ordering.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.

Last edited by HDfury; 12-09-2018 at 03:41 PM.
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post #4 of 485 Old 12-11-2018, 07:26 AM
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@HDfury any info on the HDR to SDR conversion? Any HDR Optimizer features similar to the UB820 or MadVr?

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post #5 of 485 Old 12-11-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MJ DOOM View Post
@HDfury any info on the HDR to SDR conversion? Any HDR Optimizer features similar to the UB820 or MadVr?

Please elaborate on what you mean by "HDR optimizer", what is it doing exactly ?

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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post #6 of 485 Old 12-11-2018, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Please elaborate on what you mean by "HDR optimizer", what is it doing exactly ?
"To combat these common HDR tone mapping issues, Panasonic leveraged what it learned from developing its own flat-panel displays to create a feature that it calls “HDR Optimizer.” When enabled, this feature lets you pick from an assortment of brightness presets that match your display’s capability. Presets include 1500 nits, 1000 nits, and 500 nits, which roughly align with the light output capability of high brightness LCD TVs, OLED TVs, and lower brightness projectors. Once configured, the player applies a tone map designed to match the typical brightness seen from these designs. But the UB820 doesn’t just provide a simple tone map; it also looks at the HDR metadata in the program and bases its processing on that information (including the maximum brightness of the display used for mastering and the program’s maximum pixel level)."

Read more here

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-review-page-2

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post #7 of 485 Old 12-11-2018, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ DOOM View Post
"To combat these common HDR tone mapping issues, Panasonic leveraged what it learned from developing its own flat-panel displays to create a feature that it calls “HDR Optimizer.” When enabled, this feature lets you pick from an assortment of brightness presets that match your display’s capability. Presets include 1500 nits, 1000 nits, and 500 nits, which roughly align with the light output capability of high brightness LCD TVs, OLED TVs, and lower brightness projectors. Once configured, the player applies a tone map designed to match the typical brightness seen from these designs. But the UB820 doesn’t just provide a simple tone map; it also looks at the HDR metadata in the program and bases its processing on that information (including the maximum brightness of the display used for mastering and the program’s maximum pixel level)."

Read more here

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-review-page-2

Yes we have presets as well of course, what a marketing name for it

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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post #8 of 485 Old 12-11-2018, 02:12 PM
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HDFury Diva product anticipation thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Yes we have presets as well of course, what a marketing name for it


I would like to clarify if you are stating the Diva has HDR Tone Mapping capabilities?

While it is a trademarked name, the “HDR Optimizer” from Panasonic is basically performing dynamic HDR Tone Mapping on the fly:

Tone mapping is a technique used in image processing and computer graphics to map one set of colors to another to approximate the appearance of high-dynamic-range images in a medium that has a more limited dynamic range. Wikipedia


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post #9 of 485 Old 12-11-2018, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I would like to clarify if you are stating the Diva has HDR Tone Mapping capabilities?

While it is a trademarked name, the “HDR Optimizer” from Panasonic is basically performing dynamic HDR Tone Mapping on the fly:

Tone mapping is a technique used in image processing and computer graphics to map one set of colors to another to approximate the appearance of high-dynamic-range images in a medium that has a more limited dynamic range. Wikipedia


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, Diva have HDR > SDR converter like Lumagen Radiance Pro and OPPO203 have it for 4K, just on Diva, it only works for 4K HDR > 1080p SDR and not 4K HDR > 4K SDR like LRP or OPPO203 can do.
And this converter have presets of course. You can call this HDR Tone Mapping on the fly, it sounds good, for us it's called HDR > SDR converter


This particularity also allow Diva to offer perfect Ambient light solution as it can render perfect color no matter if display is 4K HDR/HLG/HDR10+/LLDV or 1080p SDR playing tone mapped content from 4K HDR/HLG/HDR10+/LLDV. There is no drawback. It renders perfect color for ambient light no matter the content played or the display in use. Note that we also build the world fist 12b PCH Led Ambient light solution to go with it.
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Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.

Last edited by HDfury; 12-11-2018 at 09:28 PM.
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post #10 of 485 Old 12-12-2018, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I would like to clarify if you are stating the Diva has HDR Tone Mapping capabilities?

While it is a trademarked name, the “HDR Optimizer” from Panasonic is basically performing dynamic HDR Tone Mapping on the fly:

Tone mapping is a technique used in image processing and computer graphics to map one set of colors to another to approximate the appearance of high-dynamic-range images in a medium that has a more limited dynamic range. Wikipedia
Any device that can output SDR from incoming HDR performs tone mapping. But the tone mapping algorithms are not the same in each device.

The Panasonic HDR Optimizer utilizes the static metadata values in the HDR content to alter its tone mapping algorithms. But it is not Dynamic Tone mapping that looks at each frame. Most other players today use a fixed target for tone mapping.

HDR TVs perform tone mapping when they get an HDR input. Some of them take tone mapping another step forward by looking at the content on a frame by frame basis which is typically called Dynamic Tone Mapping.

PC based MadVR can be considered Dynamic Tone Mapping. The Lumagen Pro has metadata based tone mapping and I believe will be getting Dynamic Tone Mapping capabilities.
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@claw what do you mean by "dynamic tone mapping?".Actual frame by frame analysis or just looking at dynamic metadata (HDR10+ or DV). The latter should be a lot easier with regards to processing power.

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post #12 of 485 Old 12-12-2018, 09:01 AM
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Will you be adding a pre-order page for the Diva to you website store similar to how you did for the Maestro?
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post #13 of 485 Old 12-12-2018, 09:11 AM
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Will you be adding a pre-order page for the Diva to you website store similar to how you did for the Maestro?

Yes in a week or two but hardware add on like ambient light or lag tester will be a bit later.


Diva shipping is now planned for FEB-2019

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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post #14 of 485 Old 12-12-2018, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post
@claw what do you mean by "dynamic tone mapping?".Actual frame by frame analysis or just looking at dynamic metadata (HDR10+ or DV). The latter should be a lot easier with regards to processing power.
Dynamic tone mapping is usually associated to frame by frame analysis.

JVC's new projector line will look at metadata similar to how the Panasonic players do for SDR/BT2020 output mode. JVC calls this Automatic Tone Mapping. I kind of like that term for metadata based tone mapping.

I would leave Dolby Vision tone mapping out of this; that is a secret between Dolby and the TV manufacturers. No existing external player can perform any tone mapping on Dolby Vision. And as HDfury mentioned in the Integral thread, HDR10+ can have dynamic metadata plus another optional SEI layer (Supplementary Enhancement Information) that tells TVs how to tone map; similar to Dolby Vision. I believe that HDR10+ can even have static metadata plus an SEI layer.


I believe that MadVR used with PCs with high-end graphics cards is the only external solution for dynamic tone mapping today. I think Lumagen is working on an implementation; maybe already complete.

By the way, Lumagen's metadata based tone mapping allows for MaxCLL value overrides similar to what we can now do with the HDfury Vertex.

Since we mentioned Panasonic, the HDR Optimizer has 2 modes:

HDR output mode where it uses the connected TV max luminance setting and the metadata values to tone map the content highlights beyond what the TV is capable of to a range that is displayable and also modify the metadata so that MaxDML and MaxCLL reflect the tone mapping result. TVs get HDR content in this mode and apply their normal tone mapping. I like to call this "Tone mapping pre-processing" since HDR is still sent to the TV, not SDR.

SDR/BT2020-BT709 output mode that I referred to in my previous post where the HDR Optimizer uses metadata values to adjust the tone mapping.
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post #15 of 485 Old 12-12-2018, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Yes in a week or two but hardware add on like ambient light or lag tester will be a bit later.


Diva shipping is now planned for FEB-2019

Great, thanks. Also, could you go into more detail about the lag tester and ambient light addons? Do they plug into the unit itself... of?
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post #16 of 485 Old 12-12-2018, 09:31 AM
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Great, thanks. Also, could you go into more detail about the lag tester and ambient light addons? Do they plug into the unit itself... of?

Yes of course, they plug into Diva and only work with Diva.
I'll give you more details soon.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Yes of course, they plug into Diva and only work with Diva.
I'll give you more details soon.

Of the two, I am probably interested in the Lag Tester as I am not too sure what ambient light add-on is for just yet. On a side note, does the Diva have or may have in the future, the ability to read and display the incoming frame-rate of an HDMI source (like from say a console for example)? Would be really helpful along with the lag tester to have an adaptive frame-rate reader.
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post #18 of 485 Old 12-12-2018, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphic- View Post
Of the two, I am probably interested in the Lag Tester as I am not too sure what ambient light add-on is for just yet. On a side note, does the Diva have or may have in the future, the ability to read and display the incoming frame-rate of an HDMI source (like from say a console for example)? Would be really helpful along with the lag tester to have an adaptive frame-rate reader.

Vertex, Integral2 and upcoming Maestro and Diva, all have ability to report EXACT FRAME RATE, up to 3 decimals, ex: 4K 24.975, if needed we can offer more decimals.


Ambient light is what allow you to do such thing :



Here you can see how led reacts:



Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Vertex, Integral2 and upcoming Maestro and Diva, all have ability to report EXACT FRAME RATE, up to 3 decimals, ex: 4K 24.975, if needed we can offer more decimals.

Does the Diva have an on-screen-display where it can show the frame-rate over the output on say a TV or will the frame-rate only show on unit's OLED display on the unit itself?


And just to confirm, the EXACT FRAME RATE will display the frame rate of what the console actually outputting not just what it is set to?
For example, a console set to say 59.94 might not always be outputting 59.94 at all times due to hardware limitations and may drop down to say 50 or 40 (etc) in some cases.
Would it be able to correctly follow and display those kind of changes in frame rates?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Ambient light is what allow you to do such thing :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zk0XJtUlI4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSqiPPjcaJw


Here you can see how led reacts:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TMJOQK6gVU


Ah, I see. That's pretty cool. So it's a light source that matches what is going on in the video?

Last edited by Seraphic-; 12-12-2018 at 04:33 PM.
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It would be nice if it could log the frame rate changes if they go below or above a set threshold. Just to verify whether a certain source is stable.

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post #21 of 485 Old 12-13-2018, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphic- View Post
Does the Diva have an on-screen-display where it can show the frame-rate over the output on say a TV or will the frame-rate only show on unit's OLED display on the unit itself?


And just to confirm, the EXACT FRAME RATE will display the frame rate of what the console actually outputting not just what it is set to?
For example, a console set to say 59.94 might not always be outputting 59.94 at all times due to hardware limitations and may drop down to say 50 or 40 (etc) in some cases.
Would it be able to correctly follow and display those kind of changes in frame rates?
Yes Diva have OSD and it displays frame rate with 3 decimals already , same for OLED.


Yes, We display exact frame rate, just refer to Vertex thread, you will see many people posting config and you can check the frame rate, sometime you have 4K59.945 sometime even 4K60.010 etc...

Diva/Maestro/Integral2 are build from Vertex tech, which is the best reporting tool ever so don't worry for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphic- View Post
Ah, I see. That's pretty cool. So it's a light source that matches what is going on in the video?

Yes, Video or Audio or a mix of both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post
It would be nice if it could log the frame rate changes if they go below or above a set threshold. Just to verify whether a certain source is stable.

We currently don't have a log but since Maestro/Diva have way more memory than Vertex/Integral2, it will be possible if we have request for it.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
Show interest by posting your TV and AVR brand/model. We might select you in the future for some beta test.
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post #22 of 485 Old 12-13-2018, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
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Yes Diva have OSD and it displays frame rate with 3 decimals already , same for OLED.


Yes, We display exact frame rate, just refer to Vertex thread, you will see many people posting config and you can check the frame rate, sometime you have 4K59.945 sometime even 4K60.010 etc...

Diva/Maestro/Integral2 are build from Vertex tech, which is the best reporting tool ever so don't worry for that.

Sounds like it does what I would be looking for. Do you have any videos of the lag tester add-on being used?
Anyway, hopefully the pre-order pop-ups soon. Have you disclosed price for the Diva and two add-ons yet?
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post #23 of 485 Old 12-13-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Seraphic- View Post
Sounds like it does what I would be looking for. Do you have any videos of the lag tester add-on being used?
Anyway, hopefully the pre-order pop-ups soon. Have you disclosed price for the Diva and two add-ons yet?

No video for lag tester yet, working on Maestro a lot lately, please wait.


Price should be around 400$-500$ for Diva, not sure yet for the add on.

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post #24 of 485 Old 12-13-2018, 11:35 PM
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Alright, no problem. Do you by chance have a video of the frame-rate counter/tracker OSD in action then with a game console (PS4?Xbox) playing a game? If not, could you post one when you get around to making a sample video of the lag tester? And is the 2nd HDMI output user configurable? Are you able to set it to match the 1st HDMI output for pass-thru or upscale of source or is it only able to downscale & do HDR->SDR?

Last edited by Seraphic-; 12-14-2018 at 07:21 AM.
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post #25 of 485 Old 12-16-2018, 06:04 AM
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Alright, no problem. Do you by chance have a video of the frame-rate counter/tracker OSD in action then with a game console (PS4?Xbox) playing a game? If not, could you post one when you get around to making a sample video of the lag tester? And is the 2nd HDMI output user configurable? Are you able to set it to match the 1st HDMI output for pass-thru or upscale of source or is it only able to downscale & do HDR->SDR?

You can refer to any Vertex video or picture.
Main output can upscale and pass thru up to 18Gbps
Second output pass thru 1080p and always downscale 4K to 1080p and convert HDR to SDR if sink is SDR 1080p


This device is NOT a 18Gbps splitter, we already released the best 18Gbps splitter out there with Vertex or Integral2, so you can add one at Diva output if needed.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
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post #26 of 485 Old 12-16-2018, 09:12 AM
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And just to confirm, the EXACT FRAME RATE will display the frame rate of what the console actually outputting not just what it is set to?
For example, a console set to say 59.94 might not always be outputting 59.94 at all times due to hardware limitations and may drop down to say 50 or 40 (etc) in some cases.
Would it be able to correctly follow and display those kind of changes in frame rates?
Are you sure the HDMI output drops to 50 or 40 fps in actual video output terms - or are you talking about rendering terms?

HDMI video output frame rates only usually vary by a small fraction?

A console rendering 40fps would still be outputting 59.94 or 60.00Hz HDMI video, and I'd expect HD Fury products to report the HDMI video rate (not analyse content for changed frames to try to estimate rendered fps)
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post #27 of 485 Old 12-16-2018, 12:13 PM
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Are you sure the HDMI output drops to 50 or 40 fps in actual video output terms - or are you talking about rendering terms?

HDMI video output frame rates only usually vary by a small fraction?

A console rendering 40fps would still be outputting 59.94 or 60.00Hz HDMI video, and I'd expect HD Fury products to report the HDMI video rate (not analyse content for changed frames to try to estimate rendered fps)
I answered that under the assumption that he was talking about 59.940 - 59.950


If gpu drop FPS, the HDMI output frequencies remains the same unless you use variable refresh rate and such but these only work from SOURCE > Display direct.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
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post #28 of 485 Old 12-16-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
Are you sure the HDMI output drops to 50 or 40 fps in actual video output terms - or are you talking about rendering terms?

HDMI video output frame rates only usually vary by a small fraction?

A console rendering 40fps would still be outputting 59.94 or 60.00Hz HDMI video, and I'd expect HD Fury products to report the HDMI video rate (not analyse content for changed frames to try to estimate rendered fps)


Yes, in this case I was referring to a frame-rate tracker of rendered FPS rather then the console's generic flag of 59.94 or 60.00 FPS.


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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
I answered that under the assumption that he was talking about 59.940 - 59.950


If gpu drop FPS, the HDMI output frequencies remains the same unless you use variable refresh rate and such but these only work from SOURCE > Display direct.

Sounds like it wouldn't be able to do exactly what I was looking for in this case.
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post #29 of 485 Old 12-16-2018, 02:08 PM
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Yes, in this case I was referring to a frame-rate tracker of rendered FPS rather then the console's generic flag of 59.94 or 60.00 FPS.





Sounds like it wouldn't be able to do exactly what I was looking for in this case.

Yes, if that's what you are looking for, then stop searching, such thing doesn't exist.

Use Automix/SINK mode for DV support on AVR-Key/Integral. Linker does NOT support all DV.
Want to get DD+ and ATMOS sound from TV streaming Apps back to an AVR via HDMI since it fails via ARC or S/PDIF?
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post #30 of 485 Old 12-16-2018, 02:26 PM
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Yes, if that's what you are looking for, then stop searching, such thing doesn't exist.

Yeah, now that I think on it a bit more, I guess it would be difficult for an external device to track the internal changes in FPS. However, I see video reviews where they track the frame-rate for a given game and how it drops for say 60fps to 50s/40s in complex areas or for games that are 30fps, drop to 20s. in some cases. I always wondering how they are tracking the rendered frames. Could they be counting the frames manually?
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