madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
As has been discussed at length already in this thread, the Envy will either have all the functionality of the PC version of MadVR - in which case it will be quite possibly even more expensive than the Lumagen Radiance Pro, unless Madshi adopts a direct internet sales model to eliminate distributor and dealer margin, in which case it could come in similar or even slightly lower than the Radiance Pro.

Or it will have trimmed down functionality in order to fit within more cost effective processing power, but even then its never going to be anywhere near $1500. It's just not physically possible for a low volume boutique electronics item, that's as complex as a mulit-input/output video processor, with the kind of processing power needed, and with the extensive support and development costs that will be required - to ever hit that price point. Madshi will have done very well if he even manages to hit three times that figure as an MSRP.
Multiple input is a switching mechanism, not that costly. If offered at $4500.00, I'd rather build a HTPC and rip the disks.

Would love to have a simplified GUI as offered in the Envy. Willing to pay a couple of hundred for the software.

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post #332 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 02:24 AM
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Well, IMO it would make no sense to price it above a HTPC like for like..........and I'm guessing here, but a streamlined madVR with simplified control GUI could be in the works.
I think of course it makes sense to price it above an HTPC. It certainly doesn't make sense to price it below.

The main selling point is the HDMI input allowing processing of any sources. Which you can't easily replicate via HTPC.

A secondary selling point is the convenience: the out-of-the-box approach which doesn't require building your own PC, setting up your own software etc.

It's like asking Apple to sell PC's cheaper than someone could achieve if they bought all the parts and put together their own PC. You're buying the design, the package, the support, the benchmarked - quantified performance.
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post #333 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 02:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Well, IMO it would make no sense to price it above a HTPC like for like..........and I'm guessing here, but a streamlined madVR with simplified control GUI could be in the works.
You are missing the difference between the Envy and a HTPC.

1) The Envy (like a Lumagen) can post-process any source plugged in hdmi IN (Netflix, Apple TV, Video Games, Bluray Player, etc).
2) The HTPC can only processed FILES (ripped movies). There is no HDMI IN possibility.

If you only need 2, of course it makes no sense to buy an Envy.
If you need 1, right now, your only choice is to buy a Lumagen. In the future, the Envy will be the new competition.

And of course 1) should be more expensive than 2) since it will probably be a kind of HTPC like 2) PLUS some special hardware to be able to input external stream via hdmi IN.
And 1) should be much more user friendly and ready to use, so you have to add that to the price of the HTPC as well.
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post #334 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 02:43 AM
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Should be cheaper than a HTPC, like for like. Around $1500.00?
VERY VERY wishful thinking... !
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post #335 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
You are missing the difference between the Envy and a HTPC.

1) The Envy (like a Lumagen) can post-process any source plugged in hdmi IN (Netflix, Apple TV, Video Games, Bluray Player, etc).
2) The HTPC can only processed FILES (ripped movies). There is no HDMI IN possibility.

If you only need 2, of course it makes no sense to buy an Envy.
If you need 1, right now, your only choice is to buy a Lumagen. In the future, the Envy will be the new competition.

And of course 1) should be more expensive than 2) since it will probably be a kind of HTPC like 2) PLUS some special hardware to be able to input external stream via hdmi IN.
And 1) should be much more user friendly and ready to use, so you have to add that to the price of the HTPC as well.
I'm in the (2) camp, but would welcome a simpler GUI.....

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post #336 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
VERY VERY wishful thinking... !
Perhaps!

No HTPC case, no large motherboard, no separate graphics card, no large power supply ETC.

Purpose built motherboard, with embedded RAM and processing....of course they will charge whatever they deem the market will pay.

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post #337 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
I hope madVR and Nvidia are in partnership.
I hope not, just ask (any? of) nVidia's previous/current partners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
2) The HTPC can only processed FILES (ripped movies). There is no HDMI IN possibility.
Will Envy include a player as well? If not you still need one. (And a HTPC can be used literally for everything else as well. )

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post #338 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
As has been discussed at length already in this thread, the Envy will either have all the functionality of the PC version of MadVR - in which case it will be quite possibly even more expensive than the Lumagen Radiance Pro, unless Madshi adopts a direct internet sales model to eliminate distributor and dealer margin, in which case it could come in similar or even slightly lower than the Radiance Pro.

Or it will have trimmed down functionality in order to fit within more cost effective processing power, but even then its never going to be anywhere near $1500. It's just not physically possible for a low volume boutique electronics item, that's as complex as a mulit-input/output video processor, with the kind of processing power needed, and with the extensive support and development costs that will be required - to ever hit that price point. Madshi will have done very well if he even manages to hit three times that figure as an MSRP.
Ah... well, looks like this isn't something for me then... neither would the Lumagen.. I was thinking this would be more affordable for the mass market...
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post #339 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 04:31 AM
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Ah... well, looks like this isn't something for me then... neither would the Lumagen.. I was thinking this would be more affordable for the mass market...
Me neither. $4500.00 for something that may be inbuilt in the next generation UHD players(hopefully some players may offer HDMI inputs, is not wise spending, solely my point of view. Rip my UHD disks and use a HTPC if I want to use madVR functionality.

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post #340 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Ah... well, looks like this isn't something for me then... neither would the Lumagen.. I was thinking this would be more affordable for the mass market...
The goal of this project seems to be ultra high quality features like provided by madVR not trying to get dynamic tone mapping to cheapskates
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post #341 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Multiple input is a switching mechanism, not that costly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Me neither. $4500.00 for something that may be inbuilt in the next generation UHD players
I'm not sure you fully understand everything that a proper VP does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Rip my UHD disks and use a HTPC if I want to use madVR functionality.
If that's all your intended use is, I'm not sure why you'd even be interested in the Envy. If you already have a HTPC, and use that for all your HDR content, even your proposed $1,500 price point is $1,500 more than you surely need to spend?
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post #342 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I'm not sure you fully understand everything that a proper VP does.



If that's all your intended use is, I'm not sure why you'd even be interested in the Envy. If you already have a HTPC, and use that for all your HDR content, even your proposed $1,500 price point is $1,500 more than you surely need to spend?
Yea HTPC can be built for way less than $1500. Also people keep saying how they wish the madVR GUI was more user friendly. I don't get that. Once it's set up you never need to go into it again nor do you see the GUI anymore. You can follow a guide and get it setup. You can't have that many configuration options and have it be easier, you just can't. Get help setting it up, then forget about it and benefit from it. My Kodi/Plex setup is about as easy to use as my roku in the other room and runs with madVR. I haven't had to open the madVR GUI to make changes in several months since I installed build 45.
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post #343 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 05:20 AM
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Silly question will this also be used to calibrate like the Lumagens ?


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post #344 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 05:58 AM
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I think if this product is priced more than the Lumagen, that would be a mistake, and will cause a fairly significant loss of interest, as you are seeing above. I still am hopeful that by streamlining more modern/fresh dedicated hardware, it could come in a bit less than Lumagen AND be less of a temperamental product. If not, I may pass as well.

Price the Envy too high and it becomes a high priced low volume boutique product that competes with the well established Lumagen. Price it a fair amount less than Lumagen, sales volume goes way up, hardware cost come down with greater manufacture volume, profit margin could rise. Different business models. Hopefully they choose the latter.

With today’s tech, there are work arounds, that bring very acceptable results, where I will not be interested to spend 5k on a processor.
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post #345 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
The goal of this project seems to be ultra high quality features like provided by madVR not trying to get dynamic tone mapping to cheapskates
All speculation here:

I bet there is a decent sized market for a low cost dynamic tone mapping function. It's the bang-for-buck type feature that I'm looking for. I have a powerful enough PC sitting within reach of my receiver, though all my content is 4K UHD's and ripping/set-up is too much friction for me to use MadVR. Certainly the Envy will address the friction, but at a price that may be more than the rest of my entire A/V system combined.
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post #346 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 06:04 AM
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I think if this product is priced more than the Lumagen, that would be a mistake, and will cause a fairly significant loss of interest, as you are seeing above. I still am hopeful that by streamlining the dedicated hardware, it could come in a bit less than Lumagen AND be less of a temperamental product. If not, I may pass as well.

With today’s tech, there are work arounds, that bring very acceptable results, where I will not be interested to spend 5k on a processor.
Lumagen is a successful product at its price points. If envy implements most of madVR inside of it, then it will have far superior upscaling to Lumagen (best upscaler I've ever seen), better dynamic tone mapping, and very awesome post processing for things like sharpening, noise etc (much better than darbee effects) compatible at 4K. It's unclear what madVR features envy will incorporate, but if it's all those, it should be a lumagen killer in my opinion.


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All speculation here:

I bet there is a decent sized market for a low cost dynamic tone mapping function. It's the bang-for-buck type feature that I'm looking for. I have a powerful enough PC sitting within reach of my receiver, though all my content is 4K UHD's and ripping/set-up is too much friction for me to use MadVR. Certainly the Envy will address the friction, but at a price that may be more than the rest of my entire A/V system combined.
This may be true, but I don't think that's what envy is.
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post #347 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 06:14 AM
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Just food for tought, and my appologies if it has been mentioned before. “Envidia” pronounced nvidia in spanish means envy.
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post #348 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 06:26 AM
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Just food for tought, and my appologies if it has been mentioned before. “Envidia” pronounced nvidia in spanish means envy.
Lol nice one, that's almost too much coincidence to swallow!
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post #349 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I'm not sure you fully understand everything that a proper VP does.



If that's all your intended use is, I'm not sure why you'd even be interested in the Envy. If you already have a HTPC, and use that for all your HDR content, even your proposed $1,500 price point is $1,500 more than you surely need to spend?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
I think if this product is priced more than the Lumagen, that would be a mistake, and will cause a fairly significant loss of interest, as you are seeing above. I still am hopeful that by streamlining more modern/fresh dedicated hardware, it could come in a bit less than Lumagen AND be less of a temperamental product. If not, I may pass as well.

Price the Envy too high and it becomes a high priced low volume boutique product that competes with the well established Lumagen. Price it a fair amount less than Lumagen, sales volume goes way up, hardware cost come down with greater manufacture volume, profit margin could rise. Different business models. Hopefully they choose the latter.

With today’s tech, there are work arounds, that bring very acceptable results, where I will not be interested to spend 5k on a processor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YumMasterYum View Post
All speculation here:

I bet there is a decent sized market for a low cost dynamic tone mapping function. It's the bang-for-buck type feature that I'm looking for. I have a powerful enough PC sitting within reach of my receiver, though all my content is 4K UHD's and ripping/set-up is too much friction for me to use MadVR. Certainly the Envy will address the friction, but at a price that may be more than the rest of my entire A/V system combined.
Perhaps make 2 versions.. 1 with just a far superior tone mapping... i don't think everyone here needs a VP..

If I am not mistaken, the Tone Mapping part doesn't need anywhere near the hardware VP, upscaling, etc, needs...

People are currently interested in MadVR because it's a cheaper alternative.. make it the same as Lumagen Pro and the interests will evaporate into thin air... well, at least for most people..
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post #350 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 11:29 AM
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There must be a market for outboard video processors to compete with Lumagen Pro. I know that I want nothing to do with HTPC. I like my physical optical discs.



I want Blu-ray discs to be processed at reference level. I want to get ever better HDR from my 140+ UHD discs. I want Netflix and Prime Video streaming to be handled well. I want my calibration guy to set it up and make it relatively effortless for me to basically "hit play".


There's nothing like competition to force prices down. If the Envy comes to market, then Lumagen might be smart to offer discounts. Nothing like choice!


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Finally, is it reasonable to believe that the Envy would have calibration tools similar to Lumagen?

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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Perhaps!

No HTPC case, no large motherboard, no separate graphics card, no large power supply ETC.

Purpose built motherboard, with embedded RAM and processing....of course they will charge whatever they deem the market will pay.
I spent more than a few years working on some projects with custom & semicustom motherboards made and designed with a few Taiwanese firms... one of them one of the majors (there aren't many majors in the market...)

Fact is that the above will cost you MORE than the equivalent combination of consumer commodity products, unless you can get HUGE scale. And by huge, I mean well over 100K/year.

The only way you'll build something cheaper is if it is not needing so much graphics processing because the feature set is carefully selected, or is based on a different technology to PC processor + GPU.
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post #352 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally, is it reasonable to believe that the Envy would have calibration tools similar to Lumagen?
I would think so.
MadVR calibration possibilities are pretty extended. 3dlut, etc...
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post #353 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 12:20 PM
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I would think so.
MadVR calibration possibilities are pretty extended. 3dlut, etc...

Hm. Ok. And a pattern generator?


I'm not familiar with the comprehensive functionality of the Radiance Pro.



If the Envy matches virtually all functionality, then hopefully there's single HDMI input/ouput model with pricing well under 2 input/output Radiance Pro msrp. If performance is not meaningfully different, then Lumagen can compete on price alone. If the Envy is ahead in some meaningful way AND beats competition msrp, then consumers are going to benefit. I hope!

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post #354 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 01:53 PM
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A cool feature would be if the Envy would be modular in sense of you could start with a lower cost gpu but there would be an option to upgrade. This would also make it future proof sinse you would not have to buy a new one just upgrade a module. This would also make it easier to spend lots of money on the initial one knowing u will be ready for new funky future improvements

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post #355 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 03:03 PM
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If we guess the actual retail price, do we get to play the Showcase Showdown?

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post #356 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
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I spent more than a few years working on some projects with custom & semicustom motherboards made and designed with a few Taiwanese firms... one of them one of the majors (there aren't many majors in the market...)

Fact is that the above will cost you MORE than the equivalent combination of consumer commodity products, unless you can get HUGE scale. And by huge, I mean well over 100K/year.

The only way you'll build something cheaper is if it is not needing so much graphics processing because the feature set is carefully selected, or is based on a different technology to PC processor + GPU.
The MB as a component, I understand. Have you factored in marketing for individual components that go into a HTPC, eye catching printing/packaging, storage, distribution etc, that reflect the final cost.

If a collaboration with likes of Nvidia is a possibility, they could design a dual purpose MB, with higher end components used for the Envy and lower end components used for the Shield.

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post #357 of 1577 Old 05-10-2019, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
I think of course it makes sense to price it above an HTPC. It certainly doesn't make sense to price it below.

The main selling point is the HDMI input allowing processing of any sources. Which you can't easily replicate via HTPC.

A secondary selling point is the convenience: the out-of-the-box approach which doesn't require building your own PC, setting up your own software etc.

It's like asking Apple to sell PC's cheaper than someone could achieve if they bought all the parts and put together their own PC. You're buying the design, the package, the support, the benchmarked - quantified performance.
I can see your point, due to the added feature set and ease of use. There is a quandry however, other than HDMI inputs a HTPC can do what the envy does at a cheaper cost. IMO pricing it at a high end HTPC cost would have a broad appeal.

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post #358 of 1577 Old 05-11-2019, 12:26 AM
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If we guess the actual retail price, do we get to play the Showcase Showdown?

Only if you're the highest bidder without going over.

But seriously, it seems to me that the biggest competitor for the Envy is madVR itself. If Envy is too expensive, then most of us won't buy it. At Lumagen-like prices, many potential customers will just put a nice video card in their HTPC, install madVR, and call it a day. Or people will buy a Panasonic 820 for tone mapping ($500).

Lumagen is a long established brand that people rely on -- not a startup that could fold any time. The Envy would need to be a significantly superior product for people to pay that much for an Envy.

Many high end TVs and projectors also do some form of tone mapping, too. For example, my projector does tone mapping (JVC NX7) from any source. So for folks like me, we still get a very nice tone-mapped picture, no madVR or Envy required. Lots of people are getting spectacular pictures with these technologies already. TBH, I'm not going to pay $4K for perhaps a 5% better picture using Envy's real-time dynamic tone mapping, especially when my picture is already pretty fantastic.

That's why I think the sweet spot for the Envy would be $2500, maybe $3000 tops. It's not chump change, but at that price many A/V perfectionists may stretch the budget to buy one, rather than a Panasonic 820 or madVR-based HTPC. Just a guess. It'll be interesting to see what price point it comes out at...
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post #359 of 1577 Old 05-11-2019, 01:46 AM
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The MB as a component, I understand. Have you factored in marketing for individual components that go into a HTPC, eye catching printing/packaging, storage, distribution etc, that reflect the final cost.
Those costs are all dwarfed by the volume difference.
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If a collaboration with likes of Nvidia is a possibility, they could design a dual purpose MB, with higher end components used for the Envy and lower end components used for the Shield.
Let's be clear, I'm talking here about a custom PC route. So taking the current level of hardware folk in here are saying they need to run madVR at their desired settings and engineering custom electronics with that same level of parts on it.

When making an embedded product with PC parts, by careful selection of SW features and options offered you can often design a "95% of market" product for much less of the cost than the 100%, and it makes more business sense to offer something else to the 5% (or not offer them anything at all). Engineers do this all the time; take a view on the "good enough" rather than the current maximum obtainable. Of course, that approach, into a very technical market that already exists, with a very vocal user base who will often say "I can do more for less money with X PC parts" is going to be a very finely balanced judgement.

It is possible to make a video processor with lesser parts. Though using your Shield example - that has a fraction of the power of the suggested 1080ti. For that to happen something significant gives.

NVIDIA have "high powered" modules for embedding - things like Jetson TX2 - https://www.arrow.com/en/products/90...001-000/nvidia - but the prices will make consumer graphics card purchasers whince when confirmed in the bangs-for-buck stakes. That one is very low on bang compared to a 1080ti; there is a newer unit - the AGX Xavier - https://developer.nvidia.com/embedde...son-agx-xavier - which is even pricier...

None of this is news really. There have been scores of companies that have come and gone trying to sell PC parts as high end HTPC / media server units. The path is well trodden, no one doing it seriously comes up with sums that make sense for them to be anywhere near the costs of basic PC assembler shops for like for like parts, and even then with that increased margin it is a rocky road.

I'm very excited to see which way the product develops, I'd dearly love to see more competition in this market that did used to have more players in it (remember Crystalio, DVDO, Faroudja etc). I'm sure this thread has been invaluable to madshi in terms of seeing opinions on the various aspects.

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post #360 of 1577 Old 05-12-2019, 12:48 AM
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I spent more than a few years working on some projects with custom & semicustom motherboards made and designed with a few Taiwanese firms... one of them one of the majors (there aren't many majors in the market...)

Fact is that the above will cost you MORE than the equivalent combination of consumer commodity products, unless you can get HUGE scale. And by huge, I mean well over 100K/year.

The only way you'll build something cheaper is if it is not needing so much graphics processing because the feature set is carefully selected, or is based on a different technology to PC processor + GPU.
This I agree with. Everything is about scale. And that's why people never understand why high tech can be so cheap. It's scale.. massive scale.

Recently Tesla announced their own 'all in one CHIP' for their autonomous driving that is able to process 2 orders of magnitude higher than Nvidea graphics cards... and they will be able to get it done cheaper... but then when you factor in their own RND for years on end to produce that card, it is likely over a billion dollars spent.. the actual production would be cheap... and then only if you have volume as otherwise no one will set up a special production line for you... Tesla would need millions of them...

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Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post
Only if you're the highest bidder without going over.

But seriously, it seems to me that the biggest competitor for the Envy is madVR itself. If Envy is too expensive, then most of us won't buy it. At Lumagen-like prices, many potential customers will just put a nice video card in their HTPC, install madVR, and call it a day. Or people will buy a Panasonic 820 for tone mapping ($500).

Lumagen is a long established brand that people rely on -- not a startup that could fold any time. The Envy would need to be a significantly superior product for people to pay that much for an Envy.

Many high end TVs and projectors also do some form of tone mapping, too. For example, my projector does tone mapping (JVC NX7) from any source. So for folks like me, we still get a very nice tone-mapped picture, no madVR or Envy required. Lots of people are getting spectacular pictures with these technologies already. TBH, I'm not going to pay $4K for perhaps a 5% better picture using Envy's real-time dynamic tone mapping, especially when my picture is already pretty fantastic.

That's why I think the sweet spot for the Envy would be $2500, maybe $3000 tops. It's not chump change, but at that price many A/V perfectionists may stretch the budget to buy one, rather than a Panasonic 820 or madVR-based HTPC. Just a guess. It'll be interesting to see what price point it comes out at...
Even at that price, it's already priced me out... i rather spend it on other stuff.. My Sony projector does a decent enough job with tone mapping, and after tweaking it a bit, it's already fantastic... and i suppose in the near future better and better tone maping will come built into the display devices... or, media players, etc... so, unless the Envy is priced below $1K, it'll be for the niche market... but then, who's to say that isn't it's target market...
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