madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 431 Old 05-12-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post
Only if you're the highest bidder without going over.

But seriously, it seems to me that the biggest competitor for the Envy is madVR itself. If Envy is too expensive, then most of us won't buy it. At Lumagen-like prices, many potential customers will just put a nice video card in their HTPC, install madVR, and call it a day. Or people will buy a Panasonic 820 for tone mapping ($500).

Lumagen is a long established brand that people rely on -- not a startup that could fold any time. The Envy would need to be a significantly superior product for people to pay that much for an Envy.

Many high end TVs and projectors also do some form of tone mapping, too. For example, my projector does tone mapping (JVC NX7) from any source. So for folks like me, we still get a very nice tone-mapped picture, no madVR or Envy required. Lots of people are getting spectacular pictures with these technologies already. TBH, I'm not going to pay $4K for perhaps a 5% better picture using Envy's real-time dynamic tone mapping, especially when my picture is already pretty fantastic.

That's why I think the sweet spot for the Envy would be $2500, maybe $3000 tops. It's not chump change, but at that price many A/V perfectionists may stretch the budget to buy one, rather than a Panasonic 820 or madVR-based HTPC. Just a guess. It'll be interesting to see what price point it comes out at...

MADVR on a PC is not really a competitor to this product, as many people do not want to use a PC as their only source. It will probably never be possible to pass all sources through a PC due to content owners piracy concerns. The envy will compete directly against Lumagen... I think $3,000 is the sweet point price.
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post #362 of 431 Old 05-12-2019, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
My Sony projector does a decent enough job with tone mapping, and after tweaking it a bit, it's already fantastic.
It really doesn't. You'll be in for quite a surprise when you actually witness dynamic tone mapping for the first time then.
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post #363 of 431 Old 05-12-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by malba2366 View Post
MADVR on a PC is not really a competitor to this product, as many people do not want to use a PC as their only source. It will probably never be possible to pass all sources through a PC due to content owners piracy concerns. The envy will compete directly against Lumagen... I think $3,000 is the sweet point price.
At $2,500 would be an instant buy. At $3,000... likely. Over $3,000 less likely.
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post #364 of 431 Old 05-13-2019, 08:50 AM
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Count me as one who is only interested in a standalone tone mapping device and doesn't need the full suite of other MadVR features.
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post #365 of 431 Old 05-14-2019, 09:24 AM
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I dont understand how anyone thinks this is going to be cheaper than a HTPC.

They are taking MadVr which currently requires a HTPC and making a standalone box with increased ease of use, as well as additional features to what you get from a HTPC currently, most likely being able to handle mutliple inputs similar to the Lumagem.

If you think they are going to be pushing this out, for less than a HTPC, you are delusional. You dont take a product, add functionality, make it more user friendly, improve it, and sell it for less than the product you were improving on. Thats not how business works lol.

Hopefully its less than the Lumagem, but if it does everything the Lumagem does AND more, and better... then it will most likely be more expensive, not less.

Just because people want it to be cheaper than the product it is supposed to be an improvement on, doesnt mean it should be expected to be.

To be clear, i would LOVE for it to be cheaper than low quality 4k players, but expecting that is absolutely delusional.

This is a business not a charity project to bring tonemapping to the masses lol.
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post #366 of 431 Old 05-14-2019, 09:41 AM
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No need to call anyone delusional, wishful thinking maybe. Have you ever mass produced a product? If so, do you mind sharing the details?
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post #367 of 431 Old 05-14-2019, 09:59 AM
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An htpc does a lot more than tone mapping and scaling. It is a full up PC and in some cases a gaming machine. Panasonic does tone mapping in a couple of their Blu-ray players that are between $500-$1000 retail. Lumagen is a niche product that uses proprietary technology implementing it mostly through ASICS or FPGAs. Their production process might be very expensive and without any real competition their markups could be pretty high also. Do we know what the envy hardware will contain? What operating system? Licenses? Is the partner someone like nvidia? Will there be early adopter/beta tester discounts? These and many other questions will dictate the final product price. That’s just my $.02
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post #368 of 431 Old 05-14-2019, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by laggs View Post
An htpc does a lot more than tone mapping and scaling. It is a full up PC and in some cases a gaming machine. Panasonic does tone mapping in a couple of their Blu-ray players that are between $500-$1000 retail. Lumagen is a niche product that uses proprietary technology implementing it mostly through ASICS or FPGAs.

HTPC is a source and can replace the function of a physical disc UHD player. There's hard drive storage, right? And there's other software to "play" movies. One can also add MadVR for better video processing.



Those of us who prefer our UHD player have only Lumagen as an option to improve video processing and calibration. Sure, it's niche. Home theater overall is fairly niche. Anyhow, Lumagen has no competition. Pricing reflects that.


The Envy will be a hit if it matches the functionality of the Lumagen, but for a better price and perhaps better performance in some respects. I only need a single HDMI input/output. I would be very interested at $1,750. That's quite an investment for many of us.

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post #369 of 431 Old 05-14-2019, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by laggs View Post
An htpc does a lot more than tone mapping and scaling. It is a full up PC and in some cases a gaming machine. Panasonic does tone mapping in a couple of their Blu-ray players that are between $500-$1000 retail. Lumagen is a niche product that uses proprietary technology implementing it mostly through ASICS or FPGAs. Their production process might be very expensive and without any real competition their markups could be pretty high also. Do we know what the envy hardware will contain? What operating system? Licenses? Is the partner someone like nvidia? Will there be early adopter/beta tester discounts? These and many other questions will dictate the final product price. That’s just my $.02
The Panasonic players tone map based on HDR metadata values. They have no ability to perform Dynamic Tone Mapping like MadVR or Lumagen. Who knows what price Panasonic would place on a new player that could perform Dynamic Tone Mapping?
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post #370 of 431 Old 05-15-2019, 07:25 AM
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I dont understand how anyone thinks this is going to be cheaper than a HTPC.


Just because people want it to be cheaper than the product it is supposed to be an improvement on, doesnt mean it should be expected to be.
Ahh yes the age old debate. "This prebuilt PC is $600 more expensive...I can build it myself for cheaper" "I can build this subwoofer for half the price of a prebuilt SVS" etc...

Happens in every industry. Often times people have an unrealistic expectation of price. 95% of the companies who sell prebuilt stuff are still in business...so somebody is buying it.

If you can do better for less money....go the HTPC route. When the product releases ask yourself: Is this product worth it to me at X price??? it's really not complicated.
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post #371 of 431 Old 05-16-2019, 05:22 PM
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HTPC is a source and can replace the function of a physical disc UHD player. There's hard drive storage, right? And there's other software to "play" movies. One can also add MadVR for better video processing.



Those of us who prefer our UHD player have only Lumagen as an option to improve video processing and calibration. Sure, it's niche. Home theater overall is fairly niche. Anyhow, Lumagen has no competition. Pricing reflects that.


The Envy will be a hit if it matches the functionality of the Lumagen, but for a better price and perhaps better performance in some respects. I only need a single HDMI input/output. I would be very interested at $1,750. That's quite an investment for many of us.
I doubt they could make and sell the thing for $1750. It needs to have some serious computing power, and they have a very small market to spread development costs over. Another key point determining price is the distribution model. If they are selling direct only I would think $2500 is the absolute minimum and $3000 is more likely. If they are selling through retain then I would bet on a list price of $4000. Remember that the only real competition is selling for $5500 list and up depending on number if i/o.
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post #372 of 431 Old 05-17-2019, 05:55 AM
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I only recently discovered that madVR is a thing, and then that the ENVY is being developed. I was hoping it would be something along the lines of what miniDSP has done to make good room calibration affordable (I realize affordable means completely different things to different people). But it's sounding like this is a completely different animal. I do understand there is absolutely no comparison between the hardware requirements between madVR and miniDSP, but it was just the first thing that came to mind when I saw the Envy teaser.

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post #373 of 431 Old 05-18-2019, 03:13 PM
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Who knows what price Panasonic would place on a new player that could perform Dynamic Tone Mapping?
Great point. No one; because Panasonic hasn't developed that tech. Madshi has developed it.

Lots of hand wringing and conjecture about the Envy's price point, capability, and target market. I am looking forward to the Envy's release. If I can't afford one I will happily continue utilizing MadVR playback on my PC; for my money MadVR produces the the best image I have ever seen in home theater.

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post #374 of 431 Old 05-18-2019, 04:30 PM
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Just looking in on this thread after following it for a while. So the Envy is projected at ^ $2500? Really sad to see this but not unexpected. I would expect improvements to MadVR to grind to a stop once the retail version of the Envy makes landfall. I’m sure Madshi appreciates the efforts of all you involved in making Envy a commercial success. Hope you all get some financial remuneration for your contributions.
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post #375 of 431 Old 05-18-2019, 04:46 PM
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It's an unknown quantity what Panasonic are working on. ATM Lumagen and madVR have dynamic tone mapping. But also we need to factor in Panasonic's hardware manufacturing expertise as well as their software capability.

They already have excellent upscaling chips and their economies of scale are huge. If they decide to add dynamic tone mapping and HDMI inputs to an upcoming flagship UHD player, the market place, hence choice would become quite interesting.

Just as a side comment JVC native 4k tone mapping is a Panasonic creation.

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post #376 of 431 Old 05-18-2019, 05:25 PM
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Just looking in on this thread after following it for a while. So the Envy is projected at ^ $2500? Really sad to see this but not unexpected. I would expect improvements to MadVR to grind to a stop once the retail version of the Envy makes landfall. I’m sure Madshi appreciates the efforts of all you involved in making Envy a commercial success. Hope you all get some financial remuneration for your contributions.
No one has said $2500 is the price range. It was only stated that this will be a device targeted at "high end theater" not a budget device. My guess is this will be priced in the lumagen price range. I also don't expect madVR to stop development once this is released. However, madVR is so awesome, it really doesn't need a lot more development if that were the case.

My speculation is that Envy will be built around nvidia platform of some sort so that madVR and Envy share a similar code base. In this situation, many features will come to madVR and get tested then move into Envy.
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post #377 of 431 Old 05-18-2019, 07:07 PM
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Who’s to say that the partnership company doesn’t stop madvr in its tracks, development continues but only in-house and the only supported/updated solution will be the envy?
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post #378 of 431 Old 05-18-2019, 07:28 PM
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Who’s to say that the partnership company doesn’t stop madvr in its tracks, development continues but only in-house and the only supported/updated solution will be the envy?
I can honestly say that I trust madshi would never let that happen.
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post #379 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 01:48 AM
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Just as a side comment JVC native 4k tone mapping is a Panasonic creation.
I didn't know that. Do you have a source? Did JVC buy a chip from Panasonic?
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post #380 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 02:02 AM
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I can honestly say that I trust madshi would never let that happen.
Everyone has their price. For everything.

And that's no criticism of madshi

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post #381 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 03:33 AM
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Just as a side comment JVC native 4k tone mapping is a Panasonic creation.
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I didn't know that. Do you have a source? Did JVC buy a chip from Panasonic?
AFAIK this is complete misinformation. Panasonic and JVC worked together specifically to issue two color profiles (designed for 350nits and 500nits as I recall) made specifically to get the most out of UB9000/UB820 players. These are only two specific profiles made available in the latest f/w update. The JVC tonemapping, that was present from the beginning, still applies even with these profiles, and AFAIK it was designed by JVC solely. The content is first tonemapped to 350nits or 500nits by the player, then the JVC knowing the target applies its own tonemapping to get the final result.

I too would be interested to read any information from either company stating that JVC's tonemapping was designed by Panasonic. If anything, it was researched by members of this very forum over the last couple of years using HD Fury products, and made more user friendly and automatic by JVC on the new models, without requiring third-party hardware to reach similar results. It still has significant limitations, mainly because it relies on static metadata, unlike what the Radiance Pro and madVR (hence the Envy) do.

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post #382 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 09:32 AM
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Everyone has their price. For everything.

And that's no criticism of madshi
I will defer to the infamous words of "Jack Silva" (real name changed to protect his identity): "You can't put a price on being able to live with yourself."
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post #383 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 01:24 PM
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"You can't put a price on being able to live with yourself."
I must be missing something.

The implication in this statement is that if Madshi agrees to end further development of MadVR for the PC as part of his partnership agreement, he is doing something wrong. Why shouldn't he profit from his years of developing MadVR and the forthcoming Envy. If he and his financing partners decide that no more development of the freeware will be forthcoming, so what? Neither Madshi, or his backers are morally obligated to anyone in this regard.

Last time I checked Madshi has developed MadVR for free and in doing so provided an awesome piece of software for free. More power to him.

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post #384 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 01:45 PM
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I must be missing something.

The implication in this statement is that if Madshi agrees to end further development of MadVR for the PC as part of his partnership agreement, he is doing something wrong. Why shouldn't he profit from his years of developing MadVR and the forthcoming Envy. If he and his financing partners decide that no more development of the freeware will be forthcoming, so what? Neither Madshi, or his backers are morally obligated to anyone in this regard.

Last time I checked Madshi has developed MadVR for free and in doing so provided an awesome piece of software for free. More power to him.

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I didn't say he would be doing anything wrong. I am saying that he is doing it for a greater purpose...to share with the people that support him. There are still people that believe in sharing for the greater purpose. If he wants to create a commercial device based on his work them more power to him. I will not only support him 100% by buying one (if within reasonably priced) but I suspect that he will continue to develop and support the original version since so many people have donated their time and efforts (and I am sure that some have donated $$$) to help him make it the product that it is now. Madshi has spent more than a decade working on madvr and others have helped him along the way to improve it. There is not many developers that would have spent that much time on a project without going fully commercial years earlier.

In the infamous words of another unnamed person I trust and respect... "I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt it."
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post #385 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 03:52 PM
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I didn't know that. Do you have a source? Did JVC buy a chip from Panasonic?
It was mentioned here on AVS a while ago. Perhaps explains the collaboration between Panasonic and JVC re tone mapping for mutual benefit of moving higher end units.

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post #386 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 03:55 PM
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AFAIK this is complete misinformation. Panasonic and JVC worked together specifically to issue two color profiles (designed for 350nits and 500nits as I recall) made specifically to get the most out of UB9000/UB820 players. These are only two specific profiles made available in the latest f/w update. The JVC tonemapping, that was present from the beginning, still applies even with these profiles, and AFAIK it was designed by JVC solely. The content is first tonemapped to 350nits or 500nits by the player, then the JVC knowing the target applies its own tonemapping to get the final result.

I too would be interested to read any information from either company stating that JVC's tonemapping was designed by Panasonic. If anything, it was researched by members of this very forum over the last couple of years using HD Fury products, and made more user friendly and automatic by JVC on the new models, without requiring third-party hardware to reach similar results. It still has significant limitations, mainly because it relies on static metadata, unlike what the Radiance Pro and madVR (hence the Envy) do.
It was mentioned as I said on this forum.

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post #387 of 431 Old 05-19-2019, 03:57 PM
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It was mentioned here on AVS a while ago. Perhaps explains the collaboration between Panasonic and JVC re tone mapping for mutual benefit of moving higher end units.
I don't think so, to me it woul actually be evidence against it; if you do find an authoritative link I'd like to read it. If Panasonic were responsible for the tone mapping in the JVC PJ units then there would likely not be any benefit at all to be had from the split approach being put forward with the projector doing some, and the player doing some. You could just do it in one go for all sources.
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I don't think so, to me it woul actually be evidence against it; if you do find an authoritative link I'd like to read it. If Panasonic were responsible for the tone mapping in the JVC PJ units then there would likely not be any benefit at all to be had from the split approach being put forward with the projector doing some, and the player doing some. You could just do it in one go for all sources.
Except from a market angle so as to move more high end units. The RS300/Panasonic9000 are placed as peas in a pod.

A deep dive into these units(RS3000/Panasonic9000) examination of the HW should revealing.

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post #389 of 431 Old 05-20-2019, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
It was mentioned here on AVS a while ago. Perhaps explains the collaboration between Panasonic and JVC re tone mapping for mutual benefit of moving higher end units.
Link?

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post #390 of 431 Old 05-20-2019, 12:45 AM
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Link?
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