madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 21 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #601 of 1407 Old 08-24-2019, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Here a teaser:

Yup, that's the one. A lot better than the Lumagen menu system.
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post #602 of 1407 Old 08-24-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GarzaLin1 View Post

As for madVR envy while I want the whole enchilada of great tone mapping, properly filling the screen with correct aspect ratio, awesome upscaling, auto calibration with software calibrators such as calman and all the other great stuff that's already in madVR and all for a reasonable price but dear god I do not want them to take any user interface design ideas from Lumagen. Don't get me wrong Lumagen is so far the kind of video processors from what I've seen but the user interface looks like it was designed for those that are really into the Commodore 64. The poor descriptors, the nested menus etc genuinely made me wonder if I'd made a mistake in purchasing it the first time I used it.


Fingers crossed for the madVR envy and a cleaner UI.
Couldn't agree more!

One would think a bit more thought would have been put into the end user GUI experience, instead Lumagen's basic interface, not befitting a multi thousand dollar product. Hopefully they will improve the GUI.

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post #603 of 1407 Old 08-24-2019, 07:56 PM
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Lumagen’s interface is definitely antiquated. But I’d much rather they continue to put their efforts and time into video performance and features than replace an interface that is easy to use once you actually get used to it. After years of the same, if they changed it now there would probably be an uproar from users having to figure it all out all over again.

But with the new competition coming out, it may light a fire under the folks at Lumagen to step up their game with stuff like that! Competition in a market is always a good thing!!
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post #604 of 1407 Old 08-24-2019, 09:48 PM
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Would you have a link please..
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post #605 of 1407 Old 08-25-2019, 12:50 AM
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Thanks Mark..
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post #606 of 1407 Old 08-25-2019, 12:58 AM
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Bit off topic but.......

Watching a few 1080P series at present...Once madVR,s Up-Scaling is dialled in you really do have to sit back and smile at the shear quality of the image that it is able to produce!!

Had 3 friends over today to watch some content ..ALL commented on how good the 4K UHD looked ! They very impressed/stunned when i informed them it was Up-Scaled 1080P content!!!
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post #607 of 1407 Old 08-25-2019, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Bit off topic but.......

Watching a few 1080P series at present...Once madVR,s Up-Scaling is dialled in you really do have to sit back and smile at the shear quality of the image that it is able to produce!!

Had 3 friends over today to watch some content ..ALL commented on how good the 4K UHD looked ! They very impressed/stunned when i informed them it was Up-Scaled 1080P content!!!
That's right. It's the first upscaler that's ever produced upscaled like content. Alita upscaled bluray and 4K UHD look almost the same as far as sharpness, for example. I was watching Another Life series 1080p and upscaled it looked as sharp as a lot of 4K content. Same with WU Assassin series. A lot of those city scape drone scenes are almost demo worthy upscaled by madVR.

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post #608 of 1407 Old 08-25-2019, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Lumagen’s interface is definitely antiquated. But I’d much rather they continue to put their efforts and time into video performance and features than replace an interface that is easy to use once you actually get used to it. After years of the same, if they changed it now there would probably be an uproar from users having to figure it all out all over again.

But with the new competition coming out, it may light a fire under the folks at Lumagen to step up their game with stuff like that! Competition in a market is always a good thing!!
Agree completely, the Lumagen menu is a little stuck in the Windows 3.1 era. I’m not sure they could change much in terms of functional operation - the menu levels are what they are - but certainly from a GUI perspective it could look better and slicker.

For me though by far the bigger gain would be LAN integration with set-up via dedicated webpages - there a proper GUI could make things a lot more logical and intuitive, and faster to set up, whilst also allowing access without an onscreen menu. It would also allow direct firmware download and potentially allow remote access - imagine if you could log into one of your customers units, update their firmware, upload a revised 3D LUT and update their DTM settings - all from the comfort of your armchair!

I can imagine the Envy will likely offer this, being ‘born’ in the connected age.
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post #609 of 1407 Old 08-25-2019, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Bit off topic but.......



Watching a few 1080P series at present...Once madVR,s Up-Scaling is dialled in you really do have to sit back and smile at the shear quality of the image that it is able to produce!!



Had 3 friends over today to watch some content ..ALL commented on how good the 4K UHD looked ! They very impressed/stunned when i informed them it was Up-Scaled 1080P content!!!


Looking forward in when the envy is released to see it in action. Never seen MadVR in Action


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post #610 of 1407 Old 08-25-2019, 09:09 AM
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I think if I'm ever at the point of caring what the OSD on a video processor looks like then I'm spending too much time in the menus and the product has other fails. As it is I couldn't care less about what the UI looks like as I'd hope to only see it during setup.

Echo though about alternative config methods. The Lumagen UI is mostly complicated because the device is highly configurable and limited to an IR setup interface, with many levels of configurability for different inputs, EDIDs, outputs, CMS settings, memory groups, test patterns, etc. That level of configurability comes at a cost for a TV UI. I do wish there were even just a USB based config editor that would allow the whole unit config to be edited on a PC and then re-uploaded to the box.
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post #611 of 1407 Old 08-25-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Agree completely, the Lumagen menu is a little stuck in the Windows 3.1 era. I’m not sure they could change much in terms of functional operation - the menu levels are what they are - but certainly from a GUI perspective it could look better and slicker.

For me though by far the bigger gain would be LAN integration with set-up via dedicated webpages - there a proper GUI could make things a lot more logical and intuitive, and faster to set up, whilst also allowing access without an onscreen menu. It would also allow direct firmware download and potentially allow remote access - imagine if you could log into one of your customers units, update their firmware, upload a revised 3D LUT and update their DTM settings - all from the comfort of your armchair!

I can imagine the Envy will likely offer this, being ‘born’ in the connected age.

I completely agree, a web based configuration option would be awesome! Not only would you not have to redesign the on screen UI but if you ever need to update the web based look or have the user even customize the UI to their preference, it would be simple. A direct update from web UI that does a hash check to make sure the downloaded firmware is not corrupted or complete before attempting to update the unit would be great as well. Also a diagnostic option in the web UI that can spit out a log file than you can email to support or professional calibrator if you think the unit is malfunctioning or configured incorrectly would be another great addition to it. The number of options that can be added would take it to the next level.



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I think if I'm ever at the point of caring what the OSD on a video processor looks like then I'm spending too much time in the menus and the product has other fails. As it is I couldn't care less about what the UI looks like as I'd hope to only see it during setup.

Echo though about alternative config methods. The Lumagen UI is mostly complicated because the device is highly configurable and limited to an IR setup interface, with many levels of configurability for different inputs, EDIDs, outputs, CMS settings, memory groups, test patterns, etc. That level of configurability comes at a cost for a TV UI. I do wish there were even just a USB based config editor that would allow the whole unit config to be edited on a PC and then re-uploaded to the box.

The problem with the Lumagen UI is that it adapted a menu system that seems to have been deigned in 80s. Back then they had to use it because there was no other option which is understandable but today there is no reason for it. I don't buy the whole its because its so highly configurable and flexible. Take the pfsense custom router, it is far more complex and configurable that the Lumagen could ever be but it has a pretty good UI. In this day and age you can have one without sacrificing the other.



I'm not saying the Lumagen menu system is completely unusable, after going through the manual (a couple of times) and the forums I can navigate it pretty well now and understand what most of the options are for. The problem I have is it simply doesn't have to be that way, you can keep the same great functionality and have a UI that doesn't give you flashbacks legwarmers and the cold war.
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post #612 of 1407 Old 08-31-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Agree completely, the Lumagen menu is a little stuck in the Windows 3.1 era. I’m not sure they could change much in terms of functional operation - the menu levels are what they are - but certainly from a GUI perspective it could look better and slicker.

For me though by far the bigger gain would be LAN integration with set-up via dedicated webpages - there a proper GUI could make things a lot more logical and intuitive, and faster to set up, whilst also allowing access without an onscreen menu. It would also allow direct firmware download and potentially allow remote access - imagine if you could log into one of your customers units, update their firmware, upload a revised 3D LUT and update their DTM settings - all from the comfort of your armchair!

I can imagine the Envy will likely offer this, being ‘born’ in the connected age.
The interface on the Lumagen is pretty simplistic in slickness, but honestly, once it is setup you rarely ever interact with it. People are intimidated by it for sure, but once a Lumagen is setup the only the most people ever do is select input or aspect, which all have direct buttons. The tone mapping is simple to access on the fly as well (and even that doesn't need any real tweaking once set properly). I've been bugging them about IP access for awhile, so we'll see if that ever happens. Updating firmware is simple and I've done LOTS of remote setup/tweaking by just having the client download their profile and send it to me. Takes only a couple minutes to do, I do changes and just email it back to them for reload. Extremely painless. A LUT could be loaded this way as well (if done via Light Space).

I've bugged Jim about the Lumagen interface since the days of the DVDO Edge and such. It does look simplistic and I think it gives some customers too much rope to hang themselves with, but again, once setup you rarely ever actually need to use it.
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post #613 of 1407 Old 09-01-2019, 04:40 AM
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Even if the Lumagen OSD menu looks very "antique-like", I can't really complain about it. The well made function- and menu-structuring is more important to me. Navigation into each sub menu can be done quickly; so just within a few hours of first use one can become very familiar with it.

Ok, I'm coming from days, where MS-DOS was born; but honestly said, I never will really understand, why the mankind of these days wants to waste million of bytes for coding huge dlls just to display some simple information in a fancy looking windows style ...

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post #614 of 1407 Old 09-01-2019, 12:17 PM
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... Ok, I'm coming from days, where MS-DOS was born; but honestly said, I never will really understand, why the mankind of these days wants to waste million of bytes for coding huge dlls just to display some simple information in a fancy looking windows style ...

Best answer is “Marketing”. I bet Envy will use a fancy looking windows style for it’s UI. People expect it today and are more comfortable with similar look and feel. Those millions of bytes are a lot more available and cheap today, so why not? But I agree, functionality and value is what counts in the end.
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post #615 of 1407 Old 09-01-2019, 01:35 PM
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Even if the Lumagen OSD menu looks very "antique-like", I can't really complain about it. The well made function- and menu-structuring is more important to me. Navigation into each sub menu can be done quickly; so just within a few hours of first use one can become very familiar with it.

Ok, I'm coming from days, where MS-DOS was born; but honestly said, I never will really understand, why the mankind of these days wants to waste million of bytes for coding huge dlls just to display some simple information in a fancy looking windows style ...

MS-DOS like command line terminals existed because they had no other option. If you're working with just 640k of RAM, you strip the UI down to the bare minimum but that wasn't by choice it was by necessity. I'm guessing you're probably using Windows 10 or some other GUI based OS on your PC or Mac now. But you do have an option of using a GUI free stripped down version of Linux with just a black screen and blinking cursor that allows you the same functionality as any Windows 10 OS so why not do away with all that easy to use GUI and stick with command line? Because there is no reason to do so. Same thing with the old flip phones vs today's iPhones and Androids.



Today you can get gigabytes of RAM, a video card that can do flashy effects without breaking a sweat on the cheap and so there is no reason to restrict customer to an archaic user interface. Getting a better UI has no detriment to the functionality of the video processor so why not? My guess is Lumagen's UI was made by engineers instead of designers and because there really is nothing out there that really challenges them as far as quality video processors go, there was no reason to update it. I'm hoping with the entry of madVR Envy with a slicker interface and more features that will change it for the better. Competition is always better for the customer.


Again I'm not saying Lumagen's UI is horrible and unusable I'm just saying if there is an option for it to go from adequate to great why not go for that?
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post #616 of 1407 Old 09-01-2019, 03:24 PM
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I'm guessing you're probably using Windows 10 or some other GUI based OS on your PC or Mac now. But you do have an option of using a GUI free stripped down version of Linux with just a black screen and blinking cursor that allows you the same functionality as any Windows 10 OS so why not do away with all that easy to use GUI and stick with command line?
At home I use Win10 as I have no other choice for some reasons. In my job I am working with Linux; most times at command line level, for instance to analyze lots of protocol files, where is no need for hyper stylish fancy window boxes ... they do not say more than simple text lines. In other words - GUI solutions are nice but not the holy grail in any case. It is also my opinion, that devices like those VPs don't really need more than a simple text UI for administration.

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Today you can get gigabytes of RAM, a video card that can do flashy effects without breaking a sweat on the cheap and so there is no reason to restrict customer to an archaic user interface. Getting a better UI has no detriment to the functionality of the video processor so why not?
Of course ... RAM is cheap these days. However ... I don't think that Lumagen will change its decision, though. The VP UI is simple and effective, provides all what's needed and with absolutely no overhead of thousands of extra error-risky code lines.


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My guess is Lumagen's UI was made by engineers instead of designers and because there really is nothing out there that really challenges them as far as quality video processors go, there was no reason to update it.
Again I'm not saying Lumagen's UI is horrible and unusable I'm just saying if there is an option for it to go from adequate to great why not go for that?
Yes, Lumagens engineers have excellent HW + SW skills. Guess, a small designer is also somewhere slumbering in a drawer ... at least the Housing of the VP doesn't look that bad ... right?

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post #617 of 1407 Old 09-01-2019, 07:57 PM
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[quote=*Harry*;58500822]At home I use Win10 as I have no other choice for some reasons. In my job I am working with Linux; most times at command line level, for instance to analyze lots of protocol files, where is no need for hyper stylish fancy window boxes ... they do not say more than simple text lines. In other words - GUI solutions are nice but not the holy grail in any case. It is also my opinion, that devices like those VPs don't really need more than a simple text UI for administration.


Sure but at work I'm guessing you're using Firefox or Chrome and not Lynx as a web browser right? Just cause its bare bones doesn't mean its the best solution. I'm not saying it absolutely needs an updated UI, like I said it is functional but why stop at just functional?


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Of course ... RAM is cheap these days. However ... I don't think that Lumagen will change its decision, though. The VP UI is simple and effective, provides all what's needed and with absolutely no overhead of thousands of extra error-risky code lines.

There's a difference between looking simple and actually being simple for the end user. For instance if there is a menu item that simply says "input" vs a menu item that says "input" with a slide out text that tells you what input does, the latter option be more complex to implement but is simpler for the end user to understand. No one is asking for a 3D input system with anti aliasing , animated transitions with sound accompanying each selection, but a clean UI with a nice font would be a HUGE step forward. Also nowadays there is no need to write an interface from scratch, mature and stable libraries for open source UI solutions have been available for creating a simple modern interface without "thousands" of error prone lines of code for a while now.



Imagine there is a 1968 mustang fastback and a 1975 AMC pacer, for this example lets assume they cost and work identically as far as comfort, performance, reliability etc, all they differ is what they look like. The point of a car is to go from point A to point B and once you're inside the car you can't even look at it so technically the look shouldn't matter to anyone, But I'm betting 9 out of 10 people would take the mustang myself included (then again I've always wanted to be Bullitt ) . Looks are important regardless of what most of our mothers have told us.



I get the whole beauty is just skin deep cliche but in this case there is no reason we can't get the beauty and the brains with minimal overhead. From what I've seen madVR Envy seems to provide both which is one of the reasons I'm looking so forward to it. If like in the car example both the Lumagen and and madVR Envy were identical in everything but the UI, which do you think most people would get?
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post #618 of 1407 Old 09-02-2019, 12:41 AM
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I get the whole beauty is just skin deep cliche but in this case there is no reason we can't get the beauty and the brains with minimal overhead. From what I've seen madVR Envy seems to provide both which is one of the reasons I'm looking so forward to it. If like in the car example both the Lumagen and and madVR Envy were identical in everything but the UI, which do you think most people would get?
While car analogies are fun, when you look at the functional car market it's quite obvious things don't pan out anywhere as simply in what are technically complex products, so it is likely the choice you present likely won't exist.

For what it is worth there have already been standalone VP products with outwardly nicer looking UI's than the Lumagen that have long come and gone; Crystalio II comes to mind (from https://www.digitalconnection.com/ ):


At the end of the day if you polled current users of the Lumagen devices I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be very high up the list requests. Perhaps that will change if there is credible competition in the market.

In any case, I guess some of the speculation will draw to a close imminently as CEDIA is less than 2 weeks ago. Be interesting to see what is shown there. I frankly won't be looking at the UI, but will be particularly interested to understand the nitty gritty of HDCP and HDMI input / output handling and flexibility, sync locking between HDMI input and output, form factor, noise, DTM performance, etc. Look forward to seeing what lies in store.

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post #619 of 1407 Old 09-02-2019, 03:06 AM
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The interface on the Lumagen is pretty simplistic in slickness, but honestly, once it is setup you rarely ever interact with it.

It does look simplistic and I think it gives some customers too much rope to hang themselves with, but again, once setup you rarely ever actually need to use it.
Disagree on that one. With the amount of updates we are getting you have to use the menu a lot. And I mean " a lot" Especially since IM were DTM were implemented.
I know there is people out there who have their system calibrated and never touch it out of respect, but they would never take full advantage of recent updates.
But honestly, while I also thought the GUI was antique in the beginning, I now find it really well structured and easy to handle.
Do not forget: If they had to add all the firmware changes to the GUI then updates would likely take much more time and probably would not be cost- effective since Lumagen is a two man show...
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post #620 of 1407 Old 09-02-2019, 10:34 AM
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Sure but at work I'm guessing you're using Firefox or Chrome and not Lynx as a web browser right?
Nope ... not needed for server administration. But if, then Firefox and Chrome for WBM of 3th party units / vmware.

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post #621 of 1407 Old 09-02-2019, 06:20 PM
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While car analogies are fun, when you look at the functional car market it's quite obvious things don't pan out anywhere as simply in what are technically complex products, so it is likely the choice you present likely won't exist.

For what it is worth there have already been standalone VP products with outwardly nicer looking UI's than the Lumagen that have long come and gone; Crystalio II comes to mind (from https://www.digitalconnection.com/ ):


At the end of the day if you polled current users of the Lumagen devices I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be very high up the list requests. Perhaps that will change if there is credible competition in the market.

I think you've totally missed the point of said car car analogy. If product A functions identically to B (same features, same performance numbers) but product B is easier to operate and easy on the eyes, people will purchase product B. It could almost be the title of Apple's playbook. But yeah, competition is the major factor here.



Also I've played a little with the crystalio 2, while its pretty great for laser discs they come up a bit short in other areas so not exactly an "all things being equal" scenario. Do they still cost around $7000?
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post #622 of 1407 Old 09-02-2019, 08:52 PM
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Notice that Lumagen is not presenting... https://cedia.a2zinc.net/CEDIA2019/P...089.1567482382

Are they usually at Cedia?

Last edited by catav; 09-02-2019 at 09:17 PM.
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post #623 of 1407 Old 09-02-2019, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
Notice that Lumagen is not presenting... https://cedia.a2zinc.net/CEDIA2019/P...089.1567482382



Are they usually at Cedia?


They have been ( occasionally) in the past, but not usually. Better they work on further improvements than spend money and time going to Cedia. We know how to get ahold of them.


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post #624 of 1407 Old 09-02-2019, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
Notice that Lumagen is not presenting... https://cedia.a2zinc.net/CEDIA2019/P...089.1567482382

Are they usually at Cedia?
Jim did a booth a few years ago and it just didn't end up being worth the money. CEDIA is a show to get dealers excited about a product, not as much for consumers. But there are PLENTY of booths that use Lumagen processors. It is like Oppo, you never saw an Oppo booth at CEDIA EVER, but they were in nearly every booth anyways.

I'm stoked that MadVR is going to be at CEDIA, though I don't think they have a dedicated booth. I think they are just going to be displayed in a booth. Haven't heard which one exactly yet, but I look forward to seeing what they bring to the table!
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post #625 of 1407 Old 09-03-2019, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Jim did a booth a few years ago and it just didn't end up being worth the money. CEDIA is a show to get dealers excited about a product, not as much for consumers. But there are PLENTY of booths that use Lumagen processors. It is like Oppo, you never saw an Oppo booth at CEDIA EVER, but they were in nearly every booth anyways.

I'm stoked that MadVR is going to be at CEDIA, though I don't think they have a dedicated booth. I think they are just going to be displayed in a booth. Haven't heard which one exactly yet, but I look forward to seeing what they bring to the table!
They've been booked for quite a while, it was posted further up.
https://cedia.a2zinc.net/CEDIA2019/P...0522&Nav=False

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I think you've totally missed the point of said car car analogy. If product A functions identically to B (same features, same performance numbers) but product B is easier to operate and easy on the eyes, people will purchase product B. It could almost be the title of Apple's playbook. But yeah, competition is the major factor here.
I think actually you've missed my point. I get what you are saying completely, but my point is that the argument you present - where two products are identical in all but a single aspect - is a straw man. So yes, "if" two products were identical in all aspects and one had a UI that was better you'd go for the one with the better UI. But "identical in all aspects" won't happen, so...

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Also I've played a little with the crystalio 2, while its pretty great for laser discs they come up a bit short in other areas so not exactly an "all things being equal" scenario. Do they still cost around $7000?
I believe they're long gone as a relevant product, which was kind of my point. They might have better spent their efforts elsewhere...
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post #626 of 1407 Old 09-03-2019, 04:29 AM
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They've been booked for quite a while, it was posted further up.
https://cedia.a2zinc.net/CEDIA2019/P...0522&Nav=False
Thanks for posting the link. It looks like they do a lot more than DTM. Anyone know if 3D LUT for CMS is part of the package as well?

Any feature/functional differences between this and Lumagen products?
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post #627 of 1407 Old 09-03-2019, 04:47 AM
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Thanks for posting the link. It looks like they do a lot more than DTM. Anyone know if 3D LUT for CMS is part of the package as well?

Any feature/functional differences between this and Lumagen products?
MadVR has 3DLUT so can't see why not.

You'll probably have to wait for real product to be in the hands of folk with experience of the Lumagen (or at least, some kind of detailed spec sheet from MadVR labs) to be able to work out exactly where the differences lie.
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post #628 of 1407 Old 09-03-2019, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kris deering View Post
jim did a booth a few years ago and it just didn't end up being worth the money. Cedia is a show to get dealers excited about a product, not as much for consumers. But there are plenty of booths that use lumagen processors. It is like oppo, you never saw an oppo booth at cedia ever, but they were in nearly every booth anyways.

I'm stoked that madvr is going to be at cedia, though i don't think they have a dedicated booth. I think they are just going to be displayed in a booth. haven't heard which one exactly yet, but i look forward to seeing what they bring to the table!
3254 We have our meeting set up with MadVR for Friday morning at 9:00AM. Really looking forward to it. Also get to meet some people that I have talked to for many years, but never met in person.

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post #629 of 1407 Old 09-03-2019, 08:38 PM
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3254 We have our meeting set up with MadVR for Friday morning at 9:00AM. Really looking forward to it. Also get to meet some people that I have talked to for many years, but never met in person.
Any updates shared after the meeting would be appreciated very much
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post #630 of 1407 Old 09-04-2019, 07:38 AM
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Any updates shared after the meeting would be appreciated very much
Will find out what I am allowed to say, after our meeting.
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