madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 06:09 AM
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Now to answer some of your questions in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'm particularly interested to know if this will be a full fledged CE type product with proper HDCP capable in / outs and all that entails, or whether we'll have to work that out ourselves.

Also, at a geek level, whether this is taking current SW and running it on a embedded PC based architecture, or moving the MadVR algorithms and know-how to an FPGA or other kind of platform.
There will be 1 HDCP capable HDMI input (custom made for us), a powerful Nvidia GPU inside, running all of the madVR algorithms (and new ones in development), but it will have none of the typical setup complexity or OS/driver troubles of an HTPC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I assume you thought this through and it will be HDCP compatible for normal UHD Disks, and Digital Services like Netflix UHD 4K, etc...
We have full support for HDCP, of course. madVR Labs LLC is a registered HDCP licensee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
I have no doubt it will be a great product with Madshi’s guidance. My concern is many people interested in the MadVR program have already spent quite a bit on parts to get a working computer for MadVR. I hope there will be a way for these people to benefit from their investment in MadVR without having to purchase a new stand alone device.
If you're happy with your HTPC, there's no need to switch. The Envy's is mainly meant for users who generally don't like HTPCs, or who are tired of their HTPC, or who need the HDCP capable HDMI input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpiddy View Post
MadVR for console games and all streamable content...count me in!!!
Streamable content: Yes. For games? I rather think not, unless you don't care about latency. The Envy is optimized for video playback. It does add quite a bit of latency, so it won't work well with games, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
For this to be useful in my own system the minimal feature set is:

1x 18G HDMI 2.0 in, 1x 18G HDMI 2.0 out
3D LUT
HDR tone mapping
Aspect ratio detection
Arbitrary scaling
Of course that's all included. And much more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
And presumably virtual inputs or selectable user-pre-configurable profiles if you've only got one physical input?
There is only one physical input. Can you describe exactly how such a "virtual input" would work and how you would put it to use? Currently we don't have virtual inputs. However, many of the settings can be adjusted depending on certain properties of the incoming video signal. E.g. you can pick different artifact reduction settings for SD signals vs 720p signals vs HD signals vs UHD signals etc. I'm not sure if this already negates the need for virtual inputs? Maybe not. I'm absolutely open to add anything that seems useful. Of course care must be taken to keep the menu as simple and intuitive as possible. But in the end, the goal is to make it possible for you to configure everything in such a way that you don't have to constantly adjust the settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YumMasterYum View Post
The note only mentions HDR tone mapping for 4k. It's possible that an FPGA or lower spec GPU can handle the pixel shading algorithms without needing the costly high end specs.
My tone mapping algo is quite demanding in terms of processing power. It does have a few extra processing steps (e.g. Highlight Recovery) which are mathematically very complex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Wang View Post
Can I buy it in Asia?
That's the plan - yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
I think we're massively understating the hardware components required here, and forgetting the cost of maintenance, warranty, construction, etc.

A properly designed system, with high quality, quiet components, and a capable future proof graphics card, will get you to thousands already. Add to that the cost of assembly, maintenance / warranty, a distributor profit, marketing - and the value of MadVR on top of that. Then add in profit as a percentage on top of all that.

Then factor in that it does more things, better, than the ~5k radiance pro.

It's not equivalent to building your own HTPC either, as this would work with HDMI in. Which is a game changer. 90% of the content I watch is live / Apple TV / Netflix etc.

At $5k this would be competitively priced. Just my thoughts.
As you can see in the press release, your post was spot on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malba2366 View Post
I would think they would utilize a FPGA. It is more cost effective, and avoids all the thermal and stability issues that will come with trying to cram a HTPC with a high end CPU/GPU into a device that will fit onto an AV rack. A windows PC based device would end up being more expensive than Lumagen, once you factor in the markup needed to build and support the devices.
When I researched FPGAs, I didn't find any (that are even remotely near to what we can pay) which have the GFLOPS that I need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
HDfury has replied to several questions regarding the possibility of adding 4K HDR to SDR conversion/tone mapping to their devices.

The reply was that an FPGA that works with 600 MHz signals is cost prohibitive. It would raise the cost of a $300 HDfury device to the price range of the Lumagen Pro.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgrizzard View Post
FPGAs can be as fast or faster
Let's say we invest $1k into an FPGA (or even $2k or $5k). How many GFLOPS do we get? My research indicates that it's much less than what an Nvidia GPU provides. Plus, the Nvidia GPU is *so* much easier to develop for. And that's very important, as well, after all I want to keep inventing new algorithms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I'd wager the Panny players will move to dynamic tone mapping within a couple of generations, so Madshi could do with getting the Envy out of the door sooner rather than later, to make the most of its current technical advantage on the tone mapping side of things.
Did you know that the Oppo 203 has been doing dynamic tone mapping for years now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Does the madVR in the PC platform do aspect ratio control similar to the Lumagen Pro? AR control is an excellent feature that I hope makes it into the Envy.
Yes, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Is there presently any feature that outputs aspect information for an external control system to act on?
The Envy will have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I hope if there's any sort of external connection it's IP based not RS232.
There will be IP control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I was hoping for a Dolby Vision pass-through option like the Oppo player has with its HDMI input. Pass DV through untouched. Also a custom EDID option to report that DV is not supported so a player will send the HDR10 layer of a UHD disc even if the connected display supports Dolby Vision. (Although an HDfury device could be used to accomplish this.) Unless I am mistaken, I doubt MadVR will be tone mapping Dolby Vision any time soon.
The Envy's EDID doesn't report DV compatability, so sources should send HDR10. Honestly, I don't think I need the Dolby Vision dynamic metadata. However, having the extra 2 bits (12 bit instead of 10 bit) would sure be nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
I am very interested in the MadENVY....
My main concern looking at the HTPC based threads on the Mad VR is that those folks are way smarter than me - have Calman calibration can do 3D LUT's etc.
My interest is in a box (ENVY) which is easy to use - now I know that even in a box like the Lumagen you have to get a calibrator out and do the calibration - and that is the extent of my knowledge.
Then the next question is that Lumagen has a lot calibrators whom you can hire to get calibration done BUT will Envy have that?
For folks who don't know the technology and want to set Envy up in their environment - will the manufacturer point to some calibrators?
Calibration is a complex topic. In order to properly calibrate a display, you need a good meter, the right software, and probably a certain amount of knowledge & experience. These are things that the Envy cannot work around. If you want your display to be perfectly calibrated, the Envy will be quite similar to work with as a Lumagen, because the majority of the work will be done within the calibration software. So the usability of calibration is mostly in the hands of the calibration software companies.

Calibration aside, we're doing our very best to make the Envy as easy to use as we possibly can. I've designed the Envy menu from the ground up, starting with a white sheet of paper, trying to achieve the best compromise I could think of between ease of use and flexibility. I'm not sure if I succeeded, I hope so. Of course I'm very open to discuss changes to the menu, if users have good ideas for improvements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Please add a passthrough/untouched mode to the box, I have a feeling it will add at least 1 frame of lag, so being able to disable that for when gaming would be a great option. Would help prevent having to run a separate cable out when the box isn't needed.
There will be a separate latency-free loop-through HDMI port. But it requires a separate cable to the display, unfortunately. It's technically not possible for us to achieve latency/lag free output through the main HDMI output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laggs View Post
Just food for tought, and my appologies if it has been mentioned before. “Envidia” pronounced nvidia in spanish means envy.
Haha, that's funny! But pure coincidence. Honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laggs View Post
Who’s to say that the partnership company doesn’t stop madvr in its tracks, development continues but only in-house and the only supported/updated solution will be the envy?
I will not let that happen. The madVR HTPC software is going to stay. And I plan to always keep a free version available. However, there will probably soon be a commercial pro version with additional features. Which is something I've been hinting at for years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post
Will ENVY also include a Media Player like Kodi, or purely switching and enhancing the video signals?
There's no media player on the Envy, to keep things simple and reliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tknx View Post
Lumagen pricing? Yeah no. I’ll stick with a PC then. Although I suppose they will kill the PC product if people can just roll their own or close to it.
That's fine, you're very welcome to stay with the madVR HTPC software. It will not be killed, don't worry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
I believe Madshi is very aware of the coming age of AI & quantum computing. So he is most likely

dreaming of extending MadVr's processing to take advantage of it all. I know, commercial quantum

computing is a ways off, but AI is making leaps and bounds almost daily. Neural networks and their newly

acquired abilities to incorporate pictorial/pixel recognition is very promising.
madVR has been doing AI for years now. As will the Envy. The NGU upscaling algorithms are based on AI technology, as is the moquito noise reduction. More AI algorithms in development. Which is one reason why I need a lot of GFLOPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Would I be able to keep my oppo 203
Absolutely! The Oppo 203 works great together with the Envy. Tested it myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Has madVR Labs, LLC also taken over the PC version of madVR?
It's complicated, legally. In any case, I've made sure that decisions about the madVR HTPC software can't be made without my consent. Not that Ric would ever do that. But better safe than sorry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post
Does anybody has a good recommadation for a RAW video player with Kodi, to feed ENVY
That's a very good question. I don't have an answer myself. But I have some ideas. E.g. I thought about encoding some test videos that people could play through their hardware media players, and then the Envy would detect that such a test video is being played and would show a rating of the quality (e.g. 100% meaning perfectly lossless) on screen. Not sure if it's possible, because probably not all hardware media players support lossless codecs, so judging losslessness might be tricky. But it's something I've had on my mind for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post
What I'm really interested to know is if Envy will be able to support shaders and per-pixel control to address uniformity issues such as banding and tinting. If so, instant buy for me.
In theory it might be possible. However, I'm not sure how "stable" such problems are. E.g. is the issue the same, regardless of video content, regardless of video brightness, colors etc? Applying some kind of static fix should be possible, but if the fix needs to be different depending on a big number of factors then it becomes nearly impossible. I'm open to the idea, but it might take a while until I find the time to work on algorithms like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikemi View Post
This is probably a stupid question, but what are the chances the envy product will incorporate some type of edid management/ hdcp management solution?
Not sure what you have in mind exactly. Generally, we don't want to overload the Envy menu with lots of extra fluff. I could imagine adding some "hidden" menus or something. But whatever you're asking for would have to be useful to a decent percentage of Envy users to make it worth it for me to spend the time implementing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
if MadEnvy is to come to market as a standalone product, how will it compare with the Radiance Pro featurewise (including HDMI ins and outs), quality of video processing/scaling, and anticipate price in comparison to Radiance Pro?
The Envy will only have 1 HDMI input. It's designed to go in between your AVR and display, so the AVR does the switching. I'll leave it to the users and reviewers to compare the quality of video processing/scaling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Whilst I suspect the “millions” figure is a little over exaggerated (and active users are possibly in the thousands)
I've been discussing with my business partner about which user number to use. It's really hard to estimate properly because madVR doesn't have "phone home" built-in. As such the only data we have are the monthly downloads reported by my webserver, and they're pretty high. But how many of them are from the same or from different users? That's the hard part, because of that atm we can only guess the number of users. We did change the website a while ago, because I thought millions was over the top, even for marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
If the Envy does great upscaling AND provides artefacts-free motion flow (frame interpolation) for 4k sources it would be definitely a buy for me. Even at 4k $.
I'm working on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
You say this and yet I know of a guy in the industry that has compared the two on a professional monitor and he does not see much difference.
The problem with comparing upscaling quality is that it very heavily depends on which content you compare it with. If you use a soft source, even the simplest upscaling algo will not look much different to a good one. A bit of sharpening would help much more in that situation. But the sharper and more detailed a movie is, the more difference a good upscaling algo makes. Or if the source is very aliased (e.g. a bad SD source), the upscaling algo can also make a big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Therein lies the rub for me, as if a movie exists in 4k that is almost certainly what I'll watch it from, I'm almost certainly not watching the BD version, so given that the content I'd need to upscale likely isn't something that was downscaled first I'm not sure there is much of an advantage vs A.N. other scaler.
That's a good argument. Of course there are still many movies that are not available in 4K yet, but have been mastered in 4K and then downscaled to 1080p for the Blu-Ray release. E.g. I've just looked at Spirited Away, upscaled with the Envy. Looks like a good demo disc to compare upscaling algorithms with.
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post #752 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hey guys, the press release is out, you can find it here:

http://madVR.com/EnvyPressRelease.pdf

So after much deliberation we decided that it would be best for our new company to carry madVR's motto of "no compromises" into the CE world. As such we will start off with the Envy Pro Cinema aimed at the top-end of the market, and with the Envy base model aimed at the mid to high-end home theater market.

Here are some technical specs and features (subject to change):

- Pro Cinema: about ~10 TFLOPS, plus ~100 TFLOPS for AI / Neural Network
- Base model: about half the computational power of the Pro Cinema
- 32 bit floating point processing (per component), with 16 bit buffers
- One 18.0 Gbps HDMI 2.0 port each for input, output and loop-through
- One 36.4 Gbps DisplayPort 1.4a output port with DSC (Display Stream Compression) support
- Pro Cinema model will get hardware upgrades (at a cost) to keep it up-to-date
- 65 point or 256 point 3D LUT for accurate calibration
- supported by Calman, LightSpace, DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS via LAN connection
- Integrated SDR and HDR pattern generator
- Support for IR Remote control and IP Control
- Dynamic Tone Mapping with unique Highlight Recovery technology
- AI / Neural Network algorithms for upscaling, mosquito noise reduction etc
- 4K Anamorphic Stretch, using AI / Neural Network scaling
- 4K Debanding & Sharpening
- Automatic Black Bar & Aspect Ratio detection
- Extra features for CIH, CIW and CIA front projection
- Graphical, modern interface that combines flexibility, power and ease of use

I'm very happy that I can finally talk about the Envy, and reply to your questions and comments! If you get a chance to visit our booth at CEDIA to see our working product, please do let me know your impressions. Can't wait to hear what you think! E.g. how do you like the menu etc?

FYI, here's an up-to-date screenshot of the Envy menu:

http://madVR.com/EnvyOsd.png

The "Auto" in the menu is the default mode for some options and tells Envy to decide for itself which it considers the best setting to be, in any given situation.
Hi Madshi
Thanks for the info, Im in Australia im curious to find out what the price will set here in Aus. Javs will be the distributor over here in AUS? Or is direct buying from your company ?

Cheers

God Bless!
A good way to test your Iris on your projector is on the Spears and Munsil disc. Go to Video processing then select Luminance Loading. Don't stare directly at the lens but on an angle and you can actually see the Iris at work.
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post #753 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
There is only one physical input. Can you describe exactly how such a "virtual input" would work and how you would put it to use? Currently we don't have virtual inputs. However, many of the settings can be adjusted depending on certain properties of the incoming video signal. E.g. you can pick different artifact reduction settings for SD signals vs 720p signals vs HD signals vs UHD signals etc. I'm not sure if this already negates the need for virtual inputs? Maybe not. I'm absolutely open to add anything that seems useful. Of course care must be taken to keep the menu as simple and intuitive as possible. But in the end, the goal is to make it possible for you to configure everything in such a way that you don't have to constantly adjust the settings.
Virtual inputs will be essential for you if the Envy is limited to only a single physical input. It means you have a separate input profile for each physical source even though there is one physical input.

It means you can have separate 3D LUT's, or tone mapping parameters, or scaling settings, or general video settings, or aspect ratio settings, or frame rate settings for each physical device. For example you might want different settings for your Cable box, than you PS4, than your Oppo 205.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Did you know that the Oppo 203 has been doing dynamic tone mapping for years now?
It hasn't really though has it? Not in the same sense of frame and scene detection used by Lumagen and MadVR, and not in the same way as is being release via FW for JVC PJ's.
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post #754 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 06:29 AM
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What would the extra features be for CIA front projection? Looks pretty cool
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post #755 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
MSRP for the Envy Pro Cinema is slated for $9,979 and $5,499 for the Envy base model.
That's the bit of info I was looking for. Seems perfectly sensible to me given the amount of development and support that will be required, however I suspect those hoping for a sub-$2,000 device will be disappointed.
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post #756 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
.The Envy is optimized for video playback. It does add quite a bit of latency, so it won't work well with games, unfortunately.
How much latency roughly?
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post #757 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
- Pro Cinema: about ~10 TFLOPS, plus ~100 TFLOPS for AI / Neural Network
- Base model: about half the computational power of the Pro Cinema
- 32 bit floating point processing (per component), with 16 bit buffers
- One 18.0 Gbps HDMI 2.0 port each for input, output and loop-through
- One 36.4 Gbps DisplayPort 1.4a output port with DSC (Display Stream Compression) support
- Pro Cinema model will get hardware upgrades (at a cost) to keep it up-to-date
- 65 point or 256 point 3D LUT for accurate calibration
- supported by Calman, LightSpace, DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS via LAN connection
- Integrated SDR and HDR pattern generator
- Support for IR Remote control and IP Control
- Dynamic Tone Mapping with unique Highlight Recovery technology
- AI / Neural Network algorithms for upscaling, mosquito noise reduction etc
- 4K Anamorphic Stretch, using AI / Neural Network scaling
- 4K Debanding & Sharpening
- Automatic Black Bar & Aspect Ratio detection
- Extra features for CIH, CIW and CIA front projection
- Graphical, modern interface that combines flexibility, power and ease of use
If you can answer, how will the pro cinema vs base model compare to current GTX 10x0 video cards? If I read it correctly, the 1080TI provides about 10 tflops and the 1060 about 4.5 tflops. Is the base model comparable to an HTPC running a 1060 or can you put this into this type of perspective?

Also, given the use case of a single receiver with several devices hooked up to it, then the the receiver outputs to the envy then that to a projector, where would you attach a gaming device? How much lag will the envy add in your opinion with the most minimal settings profile? Is the loop through output basically just a pass through of the input? So in the above case you would run 2 outputs from the envy to the projector one for gaming and one for video? Is there no way to tell the envy to pass through the video as untouched as possible to allow for 1 output from envy to projector that could be used for games?

Are there any specs on the physical size of the envy and noise output? Any 12v triggers to power it on / off and any estimate on how long its boot time is from power received to ready to display signal?

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post #758 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 06:56 AM
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Looking at the "Pro Cinema: about ~10 TFLOPS, plus ~100 TFLOPS for AI / Neural Network" spec it appears to be roughly the same spec as the RTX 2080. Is it perhaps using the TU104 die that that card uses?

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post #759 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
That's the bit of info I was looking for. Seems perfectly sensible to me given the amount of development and support that will be required, however I suspect those hoping for a sub-$2,000 device will be disappointed.
As always this hobby is a matter of inches at times vs miles. My big question at this price will be when the reviewers get their hands on it and compare to the Lumagen. Whey you have a multi port box in the same range as a single port box if quality of image is 95% then choices, choices choices.

I hope when I see it tomorrow it will blow me a way
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post #760 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:02 AM
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madshi, this may not be the right place for this question but I'm going to ask it anyway.


I believe the Envy defaults to YCbCr, correct? I'm guessing that was chosen because so many of the input devices are using that for their output? Given that you're using an nVidia gpu, is the Envy internally processing in RGB? Would that mean there are several conversions going on? Does that impact quality at all if that's the case? I'm assuming there's an option in the menu somewhere to use RGB?



Sorry if this isn't the right place for such a question.

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post #761 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Thanks for the info, Im in Australia im curious to find out what the price will set here in Aus. Javs will be the distributor over here in AUS? Or is direct buying from your company ?
Great question, I've no idea... That's a question for Ric who's at CEDIA. Generally, we don't want to have big price differences in different countries, but of course we have to take country specific things like VAT, import duties, insured shipping etc into account.

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Virtual inputs will be essential for you if the Envy is limited to only a single physical input. It means you have a separate input profile for each physical source even though there is one physical input.

It means you can have separate 3D LUT's, or tone mapping parameters, or scaling settings, or general video settings, or aspect ratio settings, or frame rate settings for each physical device. For example you might want different settings for your Cable box, than you PS4, than your Oppo 205.
Can you give me practical examples for why you would want to use different 3D LUTs, tone mapping parameters, scaling settings, frame rate settings or aspect ratio settings? The 3D LUT should be source independent, unless a source device royally screws up something? The scaling settings should depend mainly on the source resolution, no? Output frame rate should primarily depend on the input frame rate, no? Aspect ratio detection is automatic, so why setting that per input?

I'm not saying that what you're saying has no merit. For example, I could see that you might want to use e.g. stronger debanding on cable TV compared to UHD Blu-Ray. But I'm wondering for which settings that really makes sense, and for which it doesn't. Fully understanding your needs is the first step for me to come up with a good solution.

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
It hasn't really though has it? Not in the same sense of frame and scene detection used by Lumagen and MadVR, and not in the same way as is being release via FW for JVC PJ's.
Well, one can always discuss the technical details and the resulting image quality of any given implementation. But the Oppo definitely does dynamic tone mapping. But still, many users prefer the static tone mapping of the Panasonic. Which is an interesting and important observation to make, no? FWIW, in my own tests I sometimes preferred the Oppo and sometimes the Panasonic tone mapping, it depended on the scene.

Anyway, I guess the point I was trying to make is that even if in a year from now maybe everyone does dynamic tone mapping, they might still not all look the same. There might be great, decent and bad implementations. Or maybe they'll all be great, what do I know?

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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
What would the extra features be for CIA front projection? Looks pretty cool
Well, I'm an CIH user myself, so I'm not exactly sure which of the features I have implemented will be helpful for CIA, but here are some that you might find useful:

1) First of all of course the black bars are automatically detected.
2) You can tell the Envy to shift the image to the top or bottom. I think this is mainly for CIW, though, nor for CIA?
3) You can tell the Envy to use an anamorphic lens only for scope movies, but not for 16:9 movies, or for both (or none).
4) You can read the detected AR via IP control and automatically adjust your motorized masking accordingly.
5) For IMAX movies there are various extra options. E.g. you can tell the Envy to always adjust to each AR change. Or you can tell the Envy to pick one AR and stick with it. Or [...].

Hope some of that is useful for CIA? If you have more ideas, I'm all ears!

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
That's the bit of info I was looking for. Seems perfectly sensible to me given the amount of development and support that will be required, however I suspect those hoping for a sub-$2,000 device will be disappointed.
Well, the madVR HTPC software will stay available.

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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
How much latency roughly?
Good question. Higher latency allows us to look further ahead (to adjust tone mapping parameters in advance to changing image content). So there's some benefit to intentionally choose a higher latency. I've not tried yet how low I can go, but it might be 2 or 3 video frames, I'm not entirely sure. We might make this adjustable, because high latency may bring image quality advantages for tone mapping, but AVRs have limits for how big an audio delay they can add.

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
If you can answer, how will the pro cinema vs base model compare to current GTX 10x0 video cards? If I read it correctly, the 1080TI provides about 10 tflops and the 1060 about 4.5 tflops. Is the base model comparable to an HTPC running a 1060 or can you put this into this type of perspective?
The GFLOPS should give you a good indication of the comparable performance. The Envy will have the advantage that it can automatically adjust the quality levels of various algorithms to achieve a good GPU load (not too high and not too low).

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Also, given the use case of a single receiver with several devices hooked up to it, then the the receiver outputs to the envy then that to a projector, where would you attach a gaming device? How much lag will the envy add in your opinion with the most minimal settings profile? Is the loop through output basically just a pass through of the input? So in the above case you would run 2 outputs from the envy to the projector one for gaming and one for video? Is there no way to tell the envy to pass through the video as untouched as possible to allow for 1 output from envy to projector that could be used for games?
A good design should be to use the loop-through output of the Envy, which I understand should have zero (or nearly zero) lag. Of course that means connecting two HDMI cables to your display. I'm sorry about that, but technically we can't do a latency free passthrough through our main HDMI output. It's just not possible, due to the way the Envy works inside.

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Are there any specs on the physical size of the envy and noise output? Any 12v triggers to power it on / off and any estimate on how long its boot time is from power received to ready to display signal?
It will be pretty big, in order to keep the GPU cool without too much noise. We're choosing high quality components to keep the noise level as low as possible, but we don't have a noise measurement available at this time. I expect boot time to be pretty quick due to "suspend/sleep" mode, but these are things we're still working on. I'm not sure yet about 12v triggers, but maybe we can implement WakeOnLAN, if that helps?

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Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
I hope when I see it tomorrow it will blow me a way
I hope so, too! I can tell Ric to turn the GPU fan to overload, maybe that will help with blowing you away? Anyway, let me know what you think!

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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I believe the Envy defaults to YCbCr, correct? I'm guessing that was chosen because so many of the input devices are using that for their output? Given that you're using an nVidia gpu, is the Envy internally processing in RGB? Would that mean there are several conversions going on? Does that impact quality at all if that's the case? I'm assuming there's an option in the menu somewhere to use RGB?
The Envy works internally with 32bit floating point data per channel (so 96bit overall!) in TV/video levels *). Thanks to the high bitdepth and to the extra BTB & WTW headroom, there should be no measurable loss when converting between RGB <-> YCbCr multiple times, if need be. The RGB <-> YCbCr conversion in itself is a simple floating point matrix multiplication, so it's not something which is inherently lossy. Usually, multiple RGB <-> YCbCr conversions are lossy only if you round the conversions results down, or if you clip the data while working in PC levels.

The Envy mostly works in RGB, internally, but some processing steps are done in YCbCr, it depends on the algorithm. For tone mapping, I actually use a mixture of multiple color spaces (4 different ones ).

The Envy defaults to outputting the same color space as comes in. So if the source device sends RGB, the Envy also outputs RGB by default. Or if the source device sends YCbCr then the Envy outputs YCbCr by default. The purpose of this behaviour is that I want the Envy to "blend in" seamlessly. So if the TV was setup to receive YCbCr, then adding the Envy into the chain shouldn't suddenly make the TV receive RGB instead. However, the Envy always outputs 4:4:4 10bit (if the TV supports it, and if it fits into the available HDMI bandwidth).

But of course you can tell the Envy to output RGB, if you prefer. You can see the option for that in the Envy menu screenshot I've posted a few comments above.

*) Temporary results between processing steps are stored in 16bit per channel, though.
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post #762 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:35 AM
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Damn @madshi !!!! This sounds amazing. My budget is hating you soooo much right now! After dropping a cheap car worth for the RS3000 I didn’t think I was going to spend that much for a video processor. Now I have to figure out how to hide this from the Mrs.
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post #763 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:37 AM
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@madshi
when are the first Envys ready for shipping to endusers ?

“Details make perfection, and perfection is not a detail.” Leonardo Da Vinci, Italian inventor, architect, artist, mathematician, scientist
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
Damn @madshi !!!! This sounds amazing. My budget is hating you soooo much right now! After dropping a cheap car worth for the RS3000 I didn’t think I was going to spend that much for a video processor. Now I have to figure out how to hide this from the Mrs.


Call it “ new theater construction cost overruns “!


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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The GFLOPS should give you a good indication of the comparable performance. The Envy will have the advantage that it can automatically adjust the quality levels of various algorithms to achieve a good GPU load (not too high and not too low).

Ahem, wouldn't THAT be nice for the commercial version of madvr on an HTPC. cough cough





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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The Envy works internally with 32bit floating point data per channel (so 96bit overall!) in TV/video levels *). Thanks to the high bitdepth and to the extra BTB & WTW headroom, there should be no measurable loss when converting between RGB <-> YCbCr multiple times, if need be. The RGB <-> YCbCr conversion in itself is a simple floating point matrix multiplication, so it's not something which is inherently lossy. Usually, multiple RGB <-> YCbCr conversions are lossy only if you round the conversions results down, or if you clip the data while working in PC levels.

The Envy mostly works in RGB, internally, but some processing steps are done in YCbCr, it depends on the algorithm. For tone mapping, I actually use a mixture of multiple color spaces (4 different ones ).

The Envy defaults to outputting the same color space as comes in. So if the source device sends RGB, the Envy also outputs RGB by default. Or if the source device sends YCbCr then the Envy outputs YCbCr by default. The purpose of this behaviour is that I want the Envy to "blend in" seamlessly. So if the TV was setup to receive YCbCr, then adding the Envy into the chain shouldn't suddenly make the TV receive RGB instead. However, the Envy always outputs 4:4:4 10bit (if the TV supports it, and if it fits into the available HDMI bandwidth).

But of course you can tell the Envy to output RGB, if you prefer. You can see the option for that in the Envy menu screenshot I've posted a few comments above.

*) Temporary results between processing steps are stored in 16bit per channel, though.

Thank you for that very detailed explanation! On that note, given that the HDMI out is 2.0 and not 2.1, I'm guessing there is a compromise on 4K 60 output not being 4:4:4 10 bit, correct?
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post #766 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
- Pro Cinema: about ~10 TFLOPS, plus ~100 TFLOPS for AI / Neural Network
- Base model: about half the computational power of the Pro Cinema
For those of us who aren't computer engineers, can you describe what the extra computational power would gain in terms of performance? In what areas is this more helpful - scaling, tone mapping, calibration, something else? On what types of content would the difference be more visible? Thanks.

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post #767 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:54 AM
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Thx for all the info !!!!

So the main difference between the Base Model and Pro Cinema is this :

Pro Cinema: about ~10 TFLOPS, plus ~100 TFLOPS for AI / Neural Network

All other features are available in the Base Model ?
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post #768 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Well, I'm an CIH user myself, so I'm not exactly sure which of the features I have implemented will be helpful for CIA, but here are some that you might find useful:

1) First of all of course the black bars are automatically detected.
2) You can tell the Envy to shift the image to the top or bottom. I think this is mainly for CIW, though, nor for CIA?
3) You can tell the Envy to use an anamorphic lens only for scope movies, but not for 16:9 movies, or for both (or none).
4) You can read the detected AR via IP control and automatically adjust your motorized masking accordingly.
5) For IMAX movies there are various extra options. E.g. you can tell the Envy to always adjust to each AR change. Or you can tell the Envy to pick one AR and stick with it. Or [...].
How quickly does the aspect ratio detection work? On some of the movies with variable ratio, the IMAX shots can be very brief, perhaps only a few seconds long. Will the Envy keep up with that, or does it require a ratio to be active for a certain length of time before it changes the scaling?

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Television and Home Theater Writer/Editor, Primetimer.com

My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers, whomever they may be.
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post #769 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 07:58 AM
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So this is for taking hdr signal in, tonemapping it, and outputting to your display as sdr? It must do more than that because everyone is so excited, but I can't find anything on Google on what this actually is.

I see some nifty stuff about like adjusting images for scope...?
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Am I correct that because it has only 1 HDMI output I cannot use it with my JVC projector and my LG OLED TV? I was really hoping for 2 outputs for normal use in a living room!
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post #771 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
Damn @madshi !!!! This sounds amazing. My budget is hating you soooo much right now! After dropping a cheap car worth for the RS3000 I didn’t think I was going to spend that much for a video processor. Now I have to figure out how to hide this from the Mrs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
when are the first Envys ready for shipping to endusers ?
Haha, I wish it were tomorrow. For now we're extremely detailed in our shipping estimate by saying Q4/2019...

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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Ahem, wouldn't THAT be nice for the commercial version of madvr on an HTPC. cough cough
Hehe! Well, it's so much easier in the Envy because we know the exact hardware. So I'm not sure if this feature will make to the HTPC software. Also, of course we might want to keep a few features exclusive to the Envy. But we'll have to wait and see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
On that note, given that the HDMI out is 2.0 and not 2.1, I'm guessing there is a compromise on 4K 60 output not being 4:4:4 10 bit, correct?
Depends. If your display has a DisplayPort 1.3 or 1.4 port, then we actually have 36.4 Gbps available instead of 18 Gbps, meaning 4K 60 output with 4:4:4 10bit should be a piece of cake. Sadly, I don't think there are any DisplayPort -> HDMI 2.1 adapters available yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
For those of us who aren't computer engineers, can you describe what the extra computational power would gain in terms of performance? In what areas is this more helpful - scaling, tone mapping, calibration, something else? On what types of content would the difference be more visible? Thanks.
Currently some of the algorithms are already available at different quality vs speed levels. E.g. the fastest NGU upscaling variant is about 10x faster than the slowest one. I plan to make the steps finer, and to add even slower variants (with higher quality), so that the Envy can pick a suitable quality level for each algorithm in any given situation. The advantage of the extra computational power is that the Pro Cinema model should always be able to choose a higher quality level compared to the base model. The visible difference might be nearly invisible in some situations, or could be relatively big in others, depending on:

- how many algorithms are running at the same time
- what the input and output resolutions are
- what the input and output frame rates are (60 fps requires 2.5x as much power as 24 fps)

Atm, the biggest power hogs are AI upscaling, AI mosquito noise reduction and tone mapping. But I plan to add more algorithms in the future, and some of them might again be AI, which requires a lot of GFLOPS.

Hope that answers your question?

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Originally Posted by danam View Post
So the main difference between the Base Model and Pro Cinema is this :

Pro Cinema: about ~10 TFLOPS, plus ~100 TFLOPS for AI / Neural Network

All other features are available in the Base Model ?
There will be more differences. E.g. we're thinking about offering a longer warranty period for the Pro Cinema model. Also, we plan to offer hardware upgrades for the Pro Cinema model for some time to come, to always keep it up to date, e.g. upgrading the processing power, output ports etc. We will probably not do that with the base model. The exact details of all this are still under discussion, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
How quickly does the aspect ratio detection work? On some of the movies with variable ratio, the IMAX shots can be very brief, perhaps only a few seconds long. Will the Envy keep up with that, or does it require a ratio to be active for a certain length of time before it changes the scaling?
Good question! Detection speed depends on a number of factors. For example, if the Envy is sure that a specific detected AR is correct, it will switch immediately, from one frame to the next. For that to happen, the image has to be reasonably bright, though, and the position and size of the black bars needs to be typical (e.g. scope bars). If the Envy isn't entirely sure, it will wait a bit, just to make sure it doesn't produce false positive AR switches.

There's a special logic implemented for IMAX movies: Any AR that was already detected before will be switched to again without delay afterwards. This helps greatly to make AR switching nearly or truely instant. I still have some ideas on how to improve it further, to achieve frame-perfect switching (in most situations) for IMAX movies. Currently sometimes I actually switch too early, because I'm detecting a new AR in a frame that won't be visible for another few milliseconds. That will be solved soon(ish).

Quote:
Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
So this is for taking hdr signal in, tonemapping it, and outputting to your display as sdr? It must do more than that because everyone is so excited, but I can't find anything on Google on what this actually is.

I see some nifty stuff about like adjusting images for scope...?
It's your swiss army knife for video processing. It does virtually everything you could possibly want, in terms of video processing. E.g. it can upscale, downscale, convert color space, calibrate, adjust images for scope, do motion interpolation, do frame blending, correct convergence & geometry of your projector etc etc. And all is done with high quality algorithms, e.g. using AI / Neural Networks for some of the algorithms.

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Originally Posted by pameijer View Post
Am I correct that because it has only 1 HDMI output I cannot use it with my JVC projector and my LG OLED TV? I was really hoping for 2 outputs for normal use in a living room!
Well, the Nvidia GPU does have multiple outputs, so in theory it would be possible. But managing a multi-monitor setup is oh so much more complicated, and I really wanted to avoid the complexity to keep the menu nice and simple. So my plan was to only allow 1 output port to be used, or maybe 2 cloned ones for stacked projectors. Would cloned outputs work for you? Or would you need to use different settings for each display? Oh well, calibration won't work with cloned outputs, of course.

Is your JVC projector in the same room as your OLED TV? Or how else would you manage to have a long enough HDMI cable?
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post #772 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post


Depends. If your display has a DisplayPort 1.3 or 1.4 port, then we actually have 36.4 Gbps available instead of 18 Gbps, meaning 4K 60 output with 4:4:4 10bit should be a piece of cake. Sadly, I don't think there are any DisplayPort -> HDMI 2.1 adapters available yet?
Pretty soon:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14535...i-21-converter
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post #773 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hehe! Well, it's so much easier in the Envy because we know the exact hardware. So I'm not sure if this feature will make to the HTPC software. Also, of course we might want to keep a few features exclusive to the Envy. But we'll have to wait and see...

See, here's how you make this work. You make the feature nVidia RTX exclusive in the commercial version of madvr, then you tell nVidia you want a discount on the Envy GPU for potentially increasing their market share of RTX owners. Smaller subset of hardware to support, discounted GPU's for the Envy...win win, right?! :P LMAO!



Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Depends. If your display has a DisplayPort 1.3 or 1.4 port, then we actually have 36.4 Gbps available instead of 18 Gbps, meaning 4K 60 output with 4:4:4 10bit should be a piece of cake. Sadly, I don't think there are any DisplayPort -> HDMI 2.1 adapters available yet?

I haven't looked as I don't CURRENTLY have an HDMI 2.1 display. I was just thinking ahead. That's at least a good possible option though.



Man I wish I had my old salary still! LOL I'm going to have to think about how to save up...I love my HTPC, but, I want to be able to apply its powers to all my input sources which is what Envy excels at. No complaint on price, as it's worth every penny. Just not quite sure how I get there yet.
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post #774 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 08:46 AM
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But the Oppo definitely does dynamic tone mapping. But still, many users prefer the static tone mapping of the Panasonic.
I own an Oppo and am baffled by this comment. I thought it only did static tone mapping. How is DTM turned on in the Oppo?
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post #775 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I will not let that happen. The madVR HTPC software is going to stay. And I plan to always keep a free version available. However, there will probably soon be a commercial pro version with additional features. Which is something I've been hinting at for years.

That's fine, you're very welcome to stay with the madVR HTPC software. It will not be killed, don't worry.
@madshi that is amazing news! thank you for verifying!

Spoiler!
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post #776 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Good question! Detection speed depends on a number of factors. For example, if the Envy is sure that a specific detected AR is correct, it will switch immediately, from one frame to the next. For that to happen, the image has to be reasonably bright, though, and the position and size of the black bars needs to be typical (e.g. scope bars). If the Envy isn't entirely sure, it will wait a bit, just to make sure it doesn't produce false positive AR switches.

There's a special logic implemented for IMAX movies: Any AR that was already detected before will be switched to again without delay afterwards. This helps greatly to make AR switching nearly or truely instant. I still have some ideas on how to improve it further, to achieve frame-perfect switching (in most situations) for IMAX movies. Currently sometimes I actually switch too early, because I'm detecting a new AR in a frame that won't be visible for another few milliseconds. That will be solved soon(ish).
Perhaps the worst case scenario for this is Michael Bay's last Transformers movie, The Last Knight. The movie has at least eight different aspect ratios, and sometimes flicks between them every 1.5 seconds. I imagine that would be nearly impossible for an algorithm to keep up with.

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One input only ....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The Envy defaults to outputting the same color space as comes in.
Hi Madshi, some exciting info here. With HTPCs running madVR, RGB has always been recommended for output from madVR and from the GPU, is this still the case or have you learned any tricks with the Envy to be able to control the GPU more directly so that the GPU doesn't convert ycbcr output to RGB and then to ycbcr again?
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post #779 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Yeah, I had seen that. But I'm not sure how quickly it will become available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
See, here's how you make this work. You make the feature nVidia RTX exclusive in the commercial version of madvr, then you tell nVidia you want a discount on the Envy GPU for potentially increasing their market share of RTX owners. Smaller subset of hardware to support, discounted GPU's for the Envy...win win, right?! :P LMAO!
Great idea! Now if only Nvidia would care about anything that sells less than 100k units a month!

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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
I own an Oppo and am baffled by this comment. I thought it only did static tone mapping. How is DTM turned on in the Oppo?
It's on by default, you can't even disable it. It's not strikingly obvious. I noticed it because I encoded a test video with multiple single video frames in it, each staying on screen for 5 seconds. Some of the frames were extremely bright, some rather dark. I noticed that each time a very bright frame changed to a very dark frame and vice versa, the Oppo would start to adjust brightness, over the course of about 5 seconds. It works reasonably well to make ultra bright content watchable, such as "The Meg", or the test video from Stacey Spears' great "UHD HDR Benchmark" disc.

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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
beast mode PC running MadVR


Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Perhaps the worst case scenario for this is Michael Bay's last Transformers movie, The Last Knight. The movie has at least eight different aspect ratios, and sometimes flicks between them every 1.5 seconds. I imagine that would be nearly impossible for an algorithm to keep up with.
Yes, I noticed that, as well. I actually already have this movie marked as "double check AR detection"!! From what I remember, AR detection worked ok with this movie, but I thought it could use further improvements to the algorithm.

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Originally Posted by jackox View Post
One input only ....
Yes, the Envy is supposed to go in between your AVR and your display, so all your sources go into your AVR and the AVR can do the switching. This way one HDMI input in the Envy should hopefully suffice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Hi Madshi, some exciting info here. With HTPCs running madVR, RGB has always been recommended for output from madVR and from the GPU, is this still the case or have you learned any tricks with the Envy to be able to control the GPU more directly so that the GPU doesn't convert ycbcr output to RGB and then to ycbcr again?
For HTPCs, RGB output (and setting the GPU control panel to PC levels) is definitely still recommended.
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post #780 of 2726 Old 09-11-2019, 09:17 AM
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@madshi - thanks for the additional info, glad to see it looks like you're much closer to being out of the starting blocks!

A couple of questions on the HDMI / HDCP side:

Can you provide detail as to how input to output video sync is handled? Is the HDMI output able to be sync locked to the HDMI input - so that input 23.976 vs output 23.976 will never drift relative to each other?

Does HDCP output level follow the input level?
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