madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 28 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1708Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #811 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 05:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,005
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5036 Post(s)
Liked: 3275
Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
Madshi, What do you think about offering a free, Basic, and Pro version of madVR on the PC. Not sure what to include in free version vs. others? But, pricing for Basic around $999 and Pro $1999. The Basic version would mirror the basic Envy as much as possible and the Pro version would mirror most if not all the features of the Envy Pro Cinema. Basic and Pro license would include support and updates. You could give minimum CPU/GPU’s for the different entry levels. Just a thought?
I don't see PC users paying $1000 or $2000 for software. If this included an HDMI input capture card that would be a totally different story. If there was a way to say take roku input and play that as a stream in a player like zoom player or MPC - or even just directly pass it out via a single pass through app that processed it like envy did, then I think people may be in for a DIY HTPC version that was a combo of some software and hardware. It still may not offer the ease of Envy, but those that require such use would need to buy the full envy.

Just some thoughts.
rjmcinnis likes this.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #812 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 05:53 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Why are you suggesting stratospheric pricing for the HTPC version of MadVR??? Are you mad.

I got zero problem throwing Madshi some money for MadVR, but you are suggesting rather insane money for software with no associated hardware which until this point has been completely free.

I am not sure how you came to those numbers, can you point me to one alternative or similar product which costs anything close to that?

It would be smarter to price it under $100 for essentially its current feature set, hell, even half of that. It would be more wise, that way I am sure 100x more people would pay for it just because we appreciate it so much, I would do so in a second even if nothing at all changed purely because he deserves it, but $1000?? What!?

I know i'm mad about madVR! I'm just trying to equate to Envy release prices, so those units are not cannibalized or degraded in any way. I feel the PC version should be valued and implemented at the same level as Envy. What price level do you think would be profitable, with customer support and free updates? If madVR disappeared tomorrow off the internet and your PC think how you'd feel! That's how important this software is to me, no value comparison to any other software for pricing!

Last edited by catav; 09-11-2019 at 06:14 PM.
catav is offline  
post #813 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 05:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Highjinx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,544
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1319 Post(s)
Liked: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
I'm including the cost for software support in those numbers. I've always wanted that for myself. I don't want to go crazy trying to make it all work, for the perfect picture. If support was taken out of the equation maybe about half the cost or less.
One could purchase a support package as an extra if required.

I would hope the Pro version, would auto detect the hardware and auto configure for optimal results.

I instantly part with $99.00 for the basic and $149.00 for the Pro.

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.
Hiran J Wijeyesekera - 1985.
Highjinx is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #814 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 06:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 7,984
Mentioned: 479 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6891 Post(s)
Liked: 6578
Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
I know i'm mad about madVR! I'm just trying to equate to Envy release prices, so those units are not cannibalized or degraded in any way. I feel the PC version should be valued and implemented at the same level as Envy. What price level do you think would be profitable, with customer support and free updates?
I already told you the price which is reasonable in my post, dont really need to repeat it.

The Envy is a super computer for most folks, the raw processing power it has is higher than 95% of all people who even own a PC would have, then it has MadVR running on top doing its thing, it costs multi thousands to even produce one box, so the price of the unit, although high, has to recoup this, especially when you start throwing in dealer networks and everybody having to make their buck along the supply chain...

As for support, have you ever been to a MadVR thread? There is an entire community that can give support for MadVR not just Madshi. I actually feel strongly that MadVR with regards to its HDR tone mapping has actually been a rather incredible community effort thus far, sure he is the guy coding, but all of us really appreciate how open Madshi has been and worked so closely with all of us during the time we have spent on getting tone mapping where it is, this has included a communal effort of thousands of hours by all the users testing and giving feedback and helping guide it to where it is, its still ongoing. I am actually proud of that and feel privileged that ideas and thoughts were even taken on board by him in the first place. Community is actually key, the internet is an amazing thing.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is offline  
post #815 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 06:34 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I already told you the price which is reasonable in my post, dont really need to repeat it.

The Envy is a super computer for most folks, the raw processing power it has is higher than 95% of all people who even own a PC would have, then it has MadVR running on top doing its thing, it costs multi thousands to even produce one box, so the price of the unit, although high, has to recoup this, especially when you start throwing in dealer networks and everybody having to make their buck along the supply chain...

As for support, have you ever been to a MadVR thread? There is an entire community that can give support for MadVR not just Madshi. I actually feel strongly that MadVR with regards to its HDR tone mapping has actually been a rather incredible community effort thus far, sure he is the guy coding, but all of us really appreciate how open Madshi has been and worked so closely with all of us during the time we have spent on getting tone mapping where it is, this has included a communal effort of thousands of hours by all the users testing and giving feedback and helping guide it to where it is, its still ongoing. I am actually proud of that and feel privileged that ideas and thoughts were even taken on board by him in the first place. Community is actually key, the internet is an amazing thing.
Madshi has never HAD to support his software. It's free for heavens sake. He only did so out of his deep love for it all. I'm just trying to introduce a new interface (customer support) that doesn't require hit and miss AVS searching for answers to questions that everyone has at one time or another. You probably have an easier time putting it all together from what I read on your post. I really like your engagement. And I do appreciate yours and other peoples support on this and other forums. I just think that Madshi deserves all the help and input we can muster at this time. I agree the internet is what makes all of our lives so much better!
Karl Maga likes this.
catav is offline  
post #816 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 06:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mightyhuhn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,196
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1198 Post(s)
Liked: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Good question. Higher latency allows us to look further ahead (to adjust tone mapping parameters in advance to changing image content). So there's some benefit to intentionally choose a higher latency. I've not tried yet how low I can go, but it might be 2 or 3 video frames, I'm not entirely sure. We might make this adjustable, because high latency may bring image quality advantages for tone mapping, but AVRs have limits for how big an audio delay they can add.
if technically possible wouldn't it be generally better to delay sending audio packets to stay in sync.
i don't see a reason or what can stop you from buffering the audio stream part of the HDMI signal before you put it back as it is so bit streaming should work too.
your output should be in sync.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hehe! Well, it's so much easier in the Envy because we know the exact hardware. So I'm not sure if this feature will make to the HTPC software. Also, of course we might want to keep a few features exclusive to the Envy. But we'll have to wait and see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If you're happy with your HTPC, there's no need to switch. The Envy's is mainly meant for users who generally don't like HTPCs, or who are tired of their HTPC, or who need the HDCP capable HDMI input.
that doesn't really match 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That's a very good question. I don't have an answer myself. But I have some ideas. E.g. I thought about encoding some test videos that people could play through their hardware media players, and then the Envy would detect that such a test video is being played and would show a rating of the quality (e.g. 100% meaning perfectly lossless) on screen. Not sure if it's possible, because probably not all hardware media players support lossless codecs, so judging losslessness might be tricky. But it's something I've had on my mind for a while.
you don't need a lossless video to get a bit perfect result.
all your envy needs to know is the result of the lossy video which will always be the same as long as a codec like h264 or newer is used.
the real problem is pixel format. HDMI can't do 4:2:0 reliable only at 50/60 HZ and only at UHD for the rest it has to use a scaler so the image will not be the same anymore.

because i read way to much about hardware specs these days i "think" that you can't have both:
Quote:
- Pro Cinema: about ~10 TFLOPS, plus ~100 TFLOPS for AI / Neural Network
- 32 bit floating point processing (per component), with 16 bit buffers
tensor cores only reach 100 Tflop with 16 bit in and output and can do 50 Tflops with 16 bit input and 32 bit output. well a quadro RTX 6000 can do something close to that but that would be a problem for your margin.
the fact that all new GPU since vega have double the FP16 performance then FP32 should be leverage IMHO.

ah and it would be really nice if you could give a short head up on doom9 if you are planning to add a feature that uses tensor cores. the new RX 5700 cards are doing great with NGU and obviously user want to use them for madVR but if you are really planning to add a feature that uses tensor cores these user should know that.
no matter how i read this you are currently working on that.
mightyhuhn is offline  
post #817 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 07:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,005
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5036 Post(s)
Liked: 3275
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
if technically possible wouldn't it be generally better to delay sending audio packets to stay in sync.
i don't see a reason or what can stop you from buffering the audio stream part of the HDMI signal before you put it back as it is so bit streaming should work too.
your output should be in sync.
You cannot assume that the output from the envy will contain the audio going out to the playback decoder device. As madshi mentioned above, the intended install is to have ENVY sitting after the AVR before the display. So at this point, audio will be decoded and played by the AVR and the video is the only thing being processed further at that time.
rjmcinnis likes this.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #818 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 08:33 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You cannot assume that the output from the envy will contain the audio going out to the playback decoder device. As madshi mentioned above, the intended install is to have ENVY sitting after the AVR before the display. So at this point, audio will be decoded and played by the AVR and the video is the only thing being processed further at that time.
If Envy has some latency with intense video processing, as Madshi has mentioned, I'd think the audio processing has already occurred in the AVR and the video might be behind? You'd think this might cause a slight delay between audio and video. Hope not. Too quick to notice?

Last edited by catav; 09-11-2019 at 09:01 PM.
catav is offline  
post #819 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 09:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Highjinx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,544
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1319 Post(s)
Liked: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
If Envy has some latency with intense video processing, as Madshi has mentioned, I'd think the audio processing has already occurred in the AVR and the video might be behind? You'd think this might cause a slight delay between audio and video. Hope not. Too quick to notice?
Couldn't the AVR be used to delay the audio to sync?

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.
Hiran J Wijeyesekera - 1985.
Highjinx is offline  
post #820 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 09:59 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,745
Mentioned: 190 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3890 Post(s)
Liked: 6687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
If Envy has some latency with intense video processing, as Madshi has mentioned, I'd think the audio processing has already occurred in the AVR and the video might be behind? You'd think this might cause a slight delay between audio and video. Hope not. Too quick to notice?
Couldn't the AVR be used to delay the audio to sync?
Madshi already said that. The problem becomes some AVRs have limited adjustments when it comes to how much delay they can add. At 24p a single frame is around 42ms. So depending on how many frames he buffers, the delay adds up quickly. And this is also assuming no delay from the input sources to compensate for on top of this.

My Home Theater UPDATED DEC 2017
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education
Kris Deering is offline  
post #821 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 10:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Highjinx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,544
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1319 Post(s)
Liked: 533
So ideally the Envy should take in both audio and video(which it does not do currently) sync both outputs, video to display audio to AVR?

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.
Hiran J Wijeyesekera - 1985.
Highjinx is offline  
post #822 of 1354 Old 09-11-2019, 11:52 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Thoughts on the prices now that they are official?

"MSRP for the Envy Pro Cinema is slated for $9,979 and $5,499 for the Envy base model. The products are expected to ship in Q4 2019."
pelleplutt is offline  
post #823 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 12:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,430
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1689 Post(s)
Liked: 932
Just to throw this out there.

Why not use AMD GPUs instead? I just built a PC with their new Radeon 5700XT. This thing is a beast, about 10TFlops and only cost $400. You'll pay far more for Nvidea. I rendered some 4K H.265 entirely on the GPU and it shreds through my files like nothing, not even breaking a sweat!

Also, the AMD newer 3000 series chips are also half the price of their Intel counterparts. I have the 3900x which is 12 core/24 threads... This thing is a beast.
Eventidal and omarank like this.
coolgeek is offline  
post #824 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 12:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,430
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1689 Post(s)
Liked: 932
BTW: Congrats Madshi! A lot of hard work and now the payday! Good luck with your business!
coolgeek is offline  
post #825 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 12:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Pultzar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle, Wa, USA
Posts: 1,172
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Liked: 125
The audio sync issue is a concern for me. I seem to be in constant battle with this on my HTPC.

Hopefully the Envy can be consistent on the latency regardless of the processing going on. Just enforce that the latency is always the worst case scenario so that it is consistent.

Then there is the AVR ability to adjust the latency to this spec including whatever the display is adding. So maybe some lobbying needs to happen on the AVR side
rjmcinnis likes this.
Pultzar is offline  
post #826 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 12:27 AM
Member
 
Plutotype's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Do we have pictures of the ENVY hardware models? ( before I add myself on the blind buyer list? ) :-)
Nexgen76 likes this.
Plutotype is offline  
post #827 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 12:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,430
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1689 Post(s)
Liked: 932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
The audio sync issue is a concern for me. I seem to be in constant battle with this on my HTPC.

Hopefully the Envy can be consistent on the latency regardless of the processing going on. Just enforce that the latency is always the worst case scenario so that it is consistent.

Then there is the AVR ability to adjust the latency to this spec including whatever the display is adding. So maybe some lobbying needs to happen on the AVR side
If the MadVR is placed between the player and the receiver, then perhaps madvr can add audio delay itself.
coolgeek is offline  
post #828 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 12:33 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Moin madshi,

good to see you finally made it and have a marketable box ready. Congrats!

One question to the feature list:
You probably remember we talked about having a warping functionality to adjust the picture to curved projection screens (independant for each corner). I couldn´t find it in the feature list, but will it be available? You said it wouldn´t be complicated and don´t take much performance, so i thought that would be a no-brainer.

I wish you great success on the show!

Regards,
Thorsten
Eventidal likes this.
hockyAVS is offline  
post #829 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 12:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,514
Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2962 Post(s)
Liked: 2171
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You cannot assume that the output from the envy will contain the audio going out to the playback decoder device. As madshi mentioned above, the intended install is to have ENVY sitting after the AVR before the display. So at this point, audio will be decoded and played by the AVR and the video is the only thing being processed further at that time.
I'd certainly hope it would, and I'd hope the Envy has it's own audio delay controls also. A great many installs won't want to pass the video through an audio processor, and many will have processors with older HDMI 1.4 boards. This will be common in higher end HT's that the upper Pro model is presumably aimed at.
Wookii is online now  
post #830 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 12:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,624
Mentioned: 485 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2453 Post(s)
Liked: 3222
Quote:
Originally Posted by riddle View Post
Its little high than i expected. :-) But what i realy want to see some diference Basic version vs Lumagen PRO. 10k its more than i want to spent but basic version for 5,5k its more close to my max expectations.
I'll leave it to reviewers and users to comment on that. Will probably take a while until someone has the chance to see both devices setup perfectly, to make it a really objective comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
if you had a pro version of MadVR for even as much as $999.00 that would work with an authorized HDMI input(to USB 3.0 or HDMI) straight into everyone's own HTPC you could go from maybe a thousand sold units to 3 to 10 times that.
HDCP requirements are very strict. There would be no way to do this legally with an HTPC. We're an official HDCP licensee and we will do everything by the book, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Another quick question to add that I couldn't see detail on - is frame-packed 3D supported? I'm currently applying 3DLUT to colour correct based on a spectro profile through the 3D glasses, which works really well
Good question! I don't know, as of yet. We hope so, but it's not 100% clear right now. If all else fails, the loop-through should always work for 3D, but of course that would mean no 3DLUT support. But we still hope to make it fully work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pameijer View Post
So yes, my OLED is in the same room as my projector (JVC X7900). Is it possible in the Envy to have 2 different profiles? It would be perfect if you can assign 1 profile to the HDMI out to the TV and 1 profile asssigned for the beamer. In my opinion if you can activate the 2nd output of the Nvidia GPU just do it
We'll discuss this internally. Maybe we will add support for dual HDMI outputs, but I can't promise that at this time. FWIW, would you need both to be active at the same time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
The Panasonic UB820/UB9000 players output Netflix and Amazon Video HDR at 4K60.

- With 4K60 4:2:2 12-bit or 4K60 4:2:0 10-bit input from the player, what will the Envy output instead of 4:4:4 10-bit? Will it output what it gets as input or will it output 4:4:4 8-bit?

- With the base model, it would seem that it might be better to use a streaming player that outputs 4K24 instead.
If the content is 24fps then it's definitely better to use a player which outputs that in its native frame rate. That not only helps keeping processing power down (by a factor of 2.5x!), but more importantly, it also makes sure there's no 3:2 pulldown judder! *However*, if the Panasonic applies a regular pulldown pattern, the Envy should be able to recognize that and extract the original 24fps video.

With 24fps, the Envy will default to output 4:4:4 10bit, if the Panasonic sends YCbCr, or RGB 10bit, if the Panasonic sends RGB. With 60fps, it depends on which port you're using. If your display has a DisplayPort 1.3/1.4 port, the Envy should actually be able to output 4K 60fps 10bit with 4:4:4 or RGB just fine. Otherwise it will use 8bit. Thanks to the excellent dithering I don't think you'll see any difference between 8bit or 10bit output, to be honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I assume this is with the Oppo in its "HDR OFF BT.2020" output mode that has the color saturation issue where it is limited to REC709 levels.
I tested it with the Oppo set to HDR OFF BT.709, but I would assume the dynamic tone mapping also happens with HDR OFF BT.2020.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
Chiming in just to wish madshi all the success he so clearly deserves. I am anxious to see what plans you have for the madVR Pro version.

Good luck for everything!
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
Any photos of the actual units?
FWIW, the case design is not final yet, but I'm sure someone at CEDIA will make a photo of the wip case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
So, how do these differ regarding end-result pq improvements from what you could achieve running madvr on a fully capable HTPC (i.e. RTX 2070/2080, etc.)?
It should be roughly comparable at the same GFLOPS. The Envy will auto-switch quality levels of various algorithms to achieve a good GPU load, however. The HTPC software doesn't do that (at least not atm). So you'll have to do a lot more tweaking on the HTPC side to achieve the same results. It's also possible that the Envy might get a few extra quality levels added at the top of some of the algos (e.g. upscaling), to help justify the price difference. To be frank, though, there's the law of diminishing returns. Although throwing more resources at upscaling always helps a bit, the actually visible difference isn't all that big. You can already verify that right now: If you compare NGU High to NGU Very High, the speed difference is pretty big (like 2x - 2.5x), but with actual movie content, the quality difference is fairly minor. So if I throw in an NGU Insane quality level for the Envy, I expect the difference to NGU Very High to not be higher (probably smaller) than the quality difference between NGU High and NGU Very High.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
Madshi, What do you think about offering a free, Basic, and Pro version of madVR on the PC. Not sure what to include in free version vs. others? But, pricing for Basic around $999 and Pro $1999. The Basic version would mirror the basic Envy as much as possible and the Pro version would mirror most if not all the features of the Envy Pro Cinema. Basic and Pro license would include support and updates. You could give minimum CPU/GPU’s for the different entry levels. Just a thought?
You should partner with Ric, our CEO and marketing/sales guy. He would surely love your idea! Seriously, though, I think there would not be many users who would be willing to pay that much for a software.

In theory we could think about adding a support option for the HTPC software, but I don't think many users would want to pay for that, considering that the community on doom9 and AVSForum often helps out for free. Which I'm greatly thankful for, btw. The only way I could do madVR for free for so long is because so many experienced users helped a lot with the support work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wombats View Post
Anything in the works for the HTPC version that takes advantage of NVIDIA TensorCores? NGU is already great, but I bet it could be even better or at least more efficient using Turing's ML inference hardware.
We plan to use the TensorCores in the Envy, obviously, hence the big TFLOPS number in the tech specs I posted. This is also the reason, btw, why I've always recommended buying a Turing Nvidia GPU to anyone who's asked about which GPU to get. Making use of the Tensor Cores doesn't come easy, though. We may have to re-create all AI algorithms specifically for the TensorCores. But I'm not sure yet, maybe not.

Whether or not we will make use of TensorCores in the HTPC software is not decided yet. I would like to, but it's also a business/marketing type of decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
if technically possible wouldn't it be generally better to delay sending audio packets to stay in sync.
i don't see a reason or what can stop you from buffering the audio stream part of the HDMI signal before you put it back as it is so bit streaming should work too.
your output should be in sync.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
So ideally the Envy should take in both audio and video(which it does not do currently) sync both outputs, video to display audio to AVR?
The Envy is supposed to be inserted into your playback chain in between AVR and display. As such, the Envy output goes directly to the display and not back into the AVR. So if the Envy did apply audio delay on the audio part of the signal, it would not have any effect (we might not even bother to passthrough audio at all, not decided yet).

Most (all?) AVRs have built in support for audio delay, so it should be easy to use that. The Envy will be tuned to have a constant audio delay, regardless of frame rate and resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you don't need a lossless video to get a bit perfect result.
all your envy needs to know is the result of the lossy video which will always be the same as long as a codec like h264 or newer is used.
In theory true, but we don't want a test video to only have 1 video frame, do we? I don't think that would work well. Some media players might not even show that 1 frame at all, if that's all that's contained in the video. So we would have to encode the same test pattern image for a duration of maybe 5 seconds or so. But if we do that, each of those frames in those 5 seconds might be slightly different, due to lossy encoding.

Hmmmm... But even talking about it now, I guess it would be possible to stamp a frame counter into each frame, that way the Envy should be able to wait for a specific frame number and compare only that. That should fix the lossless problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
the real problem is pixel format. HDMI can't do 4:2:0 reliable only at 50/60 HZ and only at UHD for the rest it has to use a scaler so the image will not be the same anymore.
In theory 4:2:0 is also available for other frame rates and resolutions. The Envy's EDID actually reports 4:2:0 capability for a lot of resolutions and frame rates, and fully supports receiving all those formats losslessly. But whether the source device is actually able to send it that way is another question, of course. From what I recall, the Oppo 203 actually might!

But even if the source devices converts to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, I can still check if the Y channel is untouched or not. And I can try to check how much damage was done to the 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 channels, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
tensor cores only reach 100 Tflop with 16 bit in and output and can do 50 Tflops with 16 bit input and 32 bit output.
Ah yes, you're right, of course. Thanks for the heads-up. I've modified my post with the tech specs accordingly. I believe we should be able to use 16bit input/output with the TensorCores. It might require re-training our neural networks, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
the fact that all new GPU since vega have double the FP16 performance then FP32 should be leverage IMHO.
I'm not sure if I can do that within D3D9. I might have to switch to D3D11 to make that work, but I'm not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Madshi already said that. The problem becomes some AVRs have limited adjustments when it comes to how much delay they can add. At 24p a single frame is around 42ms. So depending on how many frames he buffers, the delay adds up quickly. And this is also assuming no delay from the input sources to compensate for on top of this.
Exactly. Which is why I'll probably make the number of buffered frames adjustable. More buffered frames is better, but not all AVRs will be able to handle it. Or rather, such an option in the Envy will likely not adjust the number of buffered frames, but the desired audio delay instead, to make the delay identical (or nearly identical), regardless of frame rate.
SamuriHL, Manni01 and riddle like this.
madshi is online now  
post #831 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 01:54 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 286 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Will the Basic and the Pro model have the same capabilities for

- 4K Anamorphic Stretch, using AI / Neural Network scaling
- 4K Debanding & Sharpening
- Frame interpolation (Can you make this happen at 4096*2160 since Sony projectors cannot perform this)

Will both models be upgradable to HDMI 2.1 in the future?
Eventidal is online now  
post #832 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 02:00 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
It’s also virtually silent (we worked hard on this, as we hate noisy gear as much as anyone) with 4k24 (your projector in its lowest lamp mode will likely be louder). It’s not as silent when upscaling or running some advanced algos, but still quite good. From what I recall in that situation there was only something like 1-2dB higher reading on my meter seated about 8 feet from Envy. But don’t hold us to that - that’s just OTTOMH from what I recall. This all goes for the Pro Cinema. We can’t say yet if this is the same for the base model, as due to cost constraints we may have to use a different cooling strategy there.
What about a "heavy duty" version of the ENVY?
Since i´ve got all of my equipment in a rack in a separate room, the unit neither has to be silent, nor pretty. So an ENVY UAL (ugly and loud) with a reduced price would be my preferred choice.
Frankly speaking, i don´t know even know why a requirement was to make the device silent. With that price tag, you´re obviuosly targetting the highend segment. And the highend user usually has a separate equipment room and doesn´t place such a unit in the living room.
Or am i wrong?
hockyAVS is offline  
post #833 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 02:08 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
We'll discuss this internally. Maybe we will add support for dual HDMI outputs, but I can't promise that at this time. FWIW, would you need both to be active at the same time?
No, for me that won't be needed, as I guess for the majority of the target group. My screen completely covers my TV if rolled out. I believe dual outputs will greatly increase the number of potential buyers...
Peule_P likes this.
pameijer is offline  
post #834 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 02:31 AM
Advanced Member
 
jmone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 550
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Couple of Q's relating to the HTPC being the source:

1) If the playback chain is HTPC (madVR) --> AVR --> Envy --> Display: what settings would you use with madVR on the HTPC to avoid unnecessary (or destructive / double) processing? .... or do you ditch madVR altogether on the HTPC and just use iGPU?

2) Avoiding Dropped/Repeated Frames: I assume that we would still need to use custom resolution settings on the HTPC to fine tune the refresh rate to keep audio/video in sync

Thanks
Nathan
Bumper likes this.
jmone is offline  
post #835 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 02:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,005
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5036 Post(s)
Liked: 3275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
So ideally the Envy should take in both audio and video(which it does not do currently) sync both outputs, video to display audio to AVR?
No this would not be the right use case. Then you're limited to Envy on one device. The envy needs to go after the AVR in the chain. Most high end systems that will have an Envy have a decent enough AVR to allow for setting proper delays anyway.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #836 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 02:39 AM
Senior Member
 
chros73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 487
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I am not sure how you came to those numbers, can you point me to one alternative or similar product which costs anything close to that?
That's clearly not right. There was (at least) 1 "software" similar to this (although not a renderer but a decoder), called CoreAVC, I don't remember its pricing at that time, could have been 10-20 dollars (and that supported multiplatforms).
But let's not forget that these softwares are *not* standalone products but "only" directshow filters.

Of course, whoever wants to sponsor madVR labs will be able to do it, via charity / donations (even receiving small presents in return, e.g. mugs, pictures, statue, etc). What do you think, @madshi ?

@madshi , and let me congratulate you as well, it's truly amazing what you guys achieved (especially you ) during the last 10 years or so. I wish you guys the best and thanks for all the work you have done so far!

Ryzen 5 2600,Asus Prime b450-Plus,16GB,MSI GTX 1060 Gaming X 6GB(v385.28),Win10 LTSB 1607,MPC-BEx64+LAV+MadVR,Yamaha RX-A870,LG OLED65B8(04.10.25+PC4:4:[email protected]/24/25/29/30/50/59/60Hz)
chros73 is online now  
post #837 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 02:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Highjinx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,544
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1319 Post(s)
Liked: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
No this would not be the right use case. Then you're limited to Envy on one device. The envy needs to go after the AVR in the chain. Most high end systems that will have an Envy have a decent enough AVR to allow for setting proper delays anyway.
I was trying to illustrate a situation where a AVR would not have sufficient delay range to provide perfect sync.

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.
Hiran J Wijeyesekera - 1985.
Highjinx is offline  
post #838 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 02:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,624
Mentioned: 485 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2453 Post(s)
Liked: 3222
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Why not use AMD GPUs instead? I just built a PC with their new Radeon 5700XT. This thing is a beast, about 10TFlops and only cost $400.
10TFlops is nice, but we actually have about 100Tflops in the Envy Pro Cinema (only for AI / Neural Network processing, though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
BTW: Congrats Madshi! A lot of hard work and now the payday! Good luck with your business!
Thanks! So far we've only had a whole lotta costs, though. But I certainly do hope it will all work out for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
Hopefully the Envy can be consistent on the latency regardless of the processing going on.
That's the plan!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post
Do we have pictures of the ENVY hardware models? ( before I add myself on the blind buyer list? ) :-)
The case design is not fully done yet. But I'm sure somebody at CEDIA will take a photo of our wip case. It will have a brushed aluminium front plate, if that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
If the MadVR is placed between the player and the receiver, then perhaps madvr can add audio delay itself.
But the Envy only has 1 HDMI input. Do you only have 1 source? The Envy was designed to go in between AVR and display, so the AVR can do the switching between multiple source devices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
You probably remember we talked about having a warping functionality to adjust the picture to curved projection screens (independant for each corner). I couldn´t find it in the feature list, but will it be available?
It's listed in the preliminary tech specs here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...l#post58541994

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Will the Basic and the Pro model have the same capabilities for

- 4K Anamorphic Stretch, using AI / Neural Network scaling
- 4K Debanding & Sharpening
- Frame interpolation
Well, the Pro Cinema model has twice the computational power, so it might be able to run a higher quality level for some of these algorithms. But it depends on the frame rate and resolution. The base model might be able to do the same quality if you only run one algorithm at a time, and at 24fps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Can you make this happen at 4096*2160 since Sony projectors cannot perform this
I certainly hope so. This feature is in early development, though, so we'll have to wait and see. But considering how many TFLOPS we have available, I expect it should be possible. And I also hope it will have great quality, of course, with very little artifacts etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Will both models be upgradable to HDMI 2.1 in the future?
The Pro Cinema model will be upgradable to HDMI 2.1, 2.2, whatever. Can't really answer your question in regards to the base model yet.

Anyway, on the output side we already have DisplayPort 1.4a available right now with 36.4 Gbps, and once DisplayPort 1.4a -> HDMI 2.1 adapters become available, that will indirectly give you HDMI 2.1 support. Limited to 36.4 Gbps, though, instead of the full 48 Gbps. But 36.4 Gbps is a whole lot nearer to HDMI 2.1 than it is to HDMI 2.0 (18.0 Gbps).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
What about a "heavy duty" version of the ENVY?
Since i´ve got all of my equipment in a rack in a separate room, the unit neither has to be silent, nor pretty. So an ENVY UAL (ugly and loud) with a reduced price would be my preferred choice.
Frankly speaking, i don´t know even know why a requirement was to make the device silent. With that price tag, you´re obviuosly targetting the highend segment. And the highend user usually has a separate equipment room and doesn´t place such a unit in the living room.
Or am i wrong?
I suppose probably a good percentage of Pro Cinema Envys is going to go into a rack in a separate room. But we don't want to limit our potential market. Some people may want to put the Envy on display, or maybe they have no extra room available. So it certainly can't hurt to make it look pretty and low-noise. As it so happens, silent components often also have a higher quality, which seems like a good match for the Pro Cinema, as well.

Also, the base model is more likely to also go into some living rooms. But it would be weird if the base model would be prettier and more silent than the Pro Cinema model! We can't have that, so they both have to be pretty and low-noise.

Or in other words: We don't shy away from hardware expenses for the Pro Cinema model. E.g. it will use a 2080 Ti. We want to make it worth its price. For the base model, due to the lower price, while still choosing high quality components, we do have to have an eye on reasonable hardware component prices, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmone View Post
1) If the playback chain is HTPC (madVR) --> AVR --> Envy --> Display: what settings would you use with madVR on the HTPC to avoid unnecessary (or destructive / double) processing?
Depends on your GPU, I guess. If your GPU is strong enough, there's no harm in doing some of the processing in the HTPC. That might actually free up some resources in the Envy to run higher quality algorithms. In this setup, it would be nice to output 10bit from the HTPC, if you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmone View Post
2) Avoiding Dropped/Repeated Frames: I assume that we would still need to use custom resolution settings on the HTPC to fine tune the refresh rate to keep audio/video in sync
Well, you can do that to optimize dropped/repeated frames. But I mentioned it earlier in this thread: I do have some ideas on how to hide "planned" frame drops/repeats (which are needed to keep audio/video in sync) so that they're completely invisible. Once that is implemented, maybe we don't need to take as much care about avoiding perfect clocks, anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Of course, whoever wants to sponsor madVR labs will be able to do it, via charity / donations (even receiving small presents in return, e.g. mugs, pictures, statue, etc).
As mentioned earlier, there will probably be a madVR "Pro" edition available for a price soon(ish). So anyone who wants to sponsor us, can simply buy that Pro edition (or even multiple copies, if you really want). If anyone prefers to donate directly, I'm sure Ric would be happy to setup a donation link for that, as well. But considering that we're a commercial company now, selling hardware devices which aren't exactly cheap, I would expect that in the long run people won't be eager to donate. I'd already be very thankful if users would be willing to go for the madVR HTPC "Pro" edition, whenever that comes out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
let me congratulate you as well, it's truly amazing what you guys achieved (especially you ) during the last 10 years or so. I wish you guys the best and thanks for all the work you have done so far!
Thank you!
phara, SamuriHL, Manni01 and 1 others like this.
madshi is online now  
post #839 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 02:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,005
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5036 Post(s)
Liked: 3275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
I was trying to illustrate a situation where a AVR would not have sufficient delay range to provide perfect sync.
I honestly don't think this will be a real case. Most AVR's can correct 200-300ms. The type of user that will own one of these devices will have a processor capable of this correction. Plus it sounds like read-ahead frames will be a selectable option anyway.
Highjinx likes this.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #840 of 1354 Old 09-12-2019, 03:25 AM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,155
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2543 Post(s)
Liked: 1670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
- Frame interpolation (Can you make this happen at 4096*2160 since Sony projectors cannot perform this)
I think the frame interpolation engines in TVs often work at more than the greatest HDMI input frequency, and are closer to panel refresh than HDMI framerate.
For 24p input you're probably limited to 60p output for most current display devices, which must mean something that ends up looking a bit like a 3:2 pulldown.
I think you end up with:
OF = Original frame
IF = Interpolated frame

OF IF IF OF IF OF IF IF OF IF etc.

Does the above provide a net benefit to image quality?

Or would you propose just doubling to 48p (I guess that might be more problematic for many displays).
So that ends up being:
OF IF OF IF OF IF OF IF OF IF etc
bobof is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Video Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off