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post #841 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I suppose probably a good percentage of Pro Cinema Envys is going to go into a rack in a separate room. But we don't want to limit our potential market. Some people may want to put the Envy on display, or maybe they have no extra room available. So it certainly can't hurt to make it look pretty and low-noise. As it so happens, silent components often also have a higher quality, which seems like a good match for the Pro Cinema, as well.

Also, the base model is more likely to also go into some living rooms. But it would be weird if the base model would be prettier and more silent than the Pro Cinema model! We can't have that, so they both have to be pretty and low-noise.

Or in other words: We don't shy away from hardware expenses for the Pro Cinema model. E.g. it will use a 2080 Ti. We want to make it worth its price. For the base model, due to the lower price, while still choosing high quality components, we do have to have an eye on reasonable hardware component prices, as well.

You´re saying "So it certainly can't hurt to make it look pretty and low-noise.". Well it doesn´t hurt but being pretty always cost more money and trying to get such a box silent also increases complexity on the development as well (as i understood from a previous post).
And i´m more thinking of an additional option rather than replacing your current design. But of course, an additional "ugly and loud"-model increases complexity on the production side thus probably not saving anything on the product price at the end.
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post #842 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 03:37 AM
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Would it be possible to daisy chain two or three (base?) Envy's so the first one can do some algorithms while the next one can take care of other algos thus increasing the TFLOPS?

Source Player -> AVR -> ENVY -> ENVY -> ENVY -> Display
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post #843 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I think the frame interpolation engines in TVs often work at more than the greatest HDMI input frequency, and are closer to panel refresh than HDMI framerate.
For 24p input you're probably limited to 60p output for most current display devices, which must mean something that ends up looking a bit like a 3:2 pulldown.
I'm not sure yet which design I'll end up with. I could imagine doubling 24p to 48p and then using frame blending to move that to 60p. Or I could also throw away one original frame and replace it with 4 interpolated ones to achieve true 60p.

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You´re saying "So it certainly can't hurt to make it look pretty and low-noise.". Well it doesn´t hurt but being pretty always cost more money and trying to get such a box silent also increases complexity on the development as well (as i understood from a previous post).
And i´m more thinking of an additional option rather than replacing your current design. But of course, an additional "ugly and loud"-model increases complexity on the production side thus probably not saving anything on the product price at the end.
Yeah, I suppose having different case choices could be problematic, from a production and inventory point of view. But we'll see what kind of feedback we'll get from CEDIA and talking with various dealers, calibrators and end users.

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Would it be possible to daisy chain two or three (base?) Envy's so the first one can do some algorithms while the next one can take care of other algos thus increasing the TFLOPS?

Source Player -> AVR -> ENVY -> ENVY -> ENVY -> Display
Honestly, I didn't even think about that - but it should actually work! Of course daisy chaining two base Envys will only give you the same TFLOPS as the Pro Cinema model, while costing more, so that wouldn't actually win you anything. Would make more sense to daisy chain two Pro Cinemas, if you really want the extra TFLOPS. Of course the tricky part would be to assign each Envy specific tasks, because these tasks might differ, depending on the properties of the incoming video signal. But generally, yes, daisy chaining should work, and if you want to run multiple complex algorithms at the same time, possibly even with 4K 60fps sources, then there's a chance that daisy chaining two Envys might actually improve image quality to some extent. Not sure how by how much, though. (And of course latency / audio delay would double.)
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post #844 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Honestly, I didn't even think about that - but it should actually work! Of course daisy chaining two base Envys will only give you the same TFLOPS as the Pro Cinema model, while costing more, so that wouldn't actually win you anything. Would make more sense to daisy chain two Pro Cinemas, if you really want the extra TFLOPS. Of course the tricky part would be to assign each Envy specific tasks, because these tasks might differ, depending on the properties of the incoming video signal. But generally, yes, daisy chaining should work, and if you want to run multiple complex algorithms at the same time, possibly even with 4K 60fps sources, then there's a chance that daisy chaining two Envys might actually improve image quality to some extent. Not sure how by how much, though. (And of course latency / audio delay would double.)
You may use this yourself when testing new algos while lacking the TFLOPS then The idea came from your answer to the question if an HTPC running MadVR could still be used and while that was the case, probably the same would go for chaining hardware.
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post #845 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
In theory true, but we don't want a test video to only have 1 video frame, do we? I don't think that would work well. Some media players might not even show that 1 frame at all, if that's all that's contained in the video. So we would have to encode the same test pattern image for a duration of maybe 5 seconds or so. But if we do that, each of those frames in those 5 seconds might be slightly different, due to lossy encoding.
there is CU-lossless coding in h265 so with careful work it could be possible to create a lossless video in a lossy encode like a very small video with a giant latter box.
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Hmmmm... But even talking about it now, I guess it would be possible to stamp a frame counter into each frame, that way the Envy should be able to wait for a specific frame number and compare only that. That should fix the lossless problem.
yeah that part of the idea one complex frame should be enough
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In theory 4:2:0 is also available for other frame rates and resolutions. The Envy's EDID actually reports 4:2:0 capability for a lot of resolutions and frame rates, and fully supports receiving all those formats losslessly. But whether the source device is actually able to send it that way is another question, of course. From what I recall, the Oppo 203 actually might!
as far as i know the spec needs UHD 50/60 hz for 4:2:0. a PC clearly does. but you are developing on this not me and most important that doesn't change that most user will use a device that is not going to use 4:2:0.
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But even if the source devices converts to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, I can still check if the Y channel is untouched or not. And I can try to check how much damage was done to the 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 channels, as well.
some user are already testing for signal integrity and if i remember correctly some show only issues in chroma not in luma.
and i personally would not consider using belinear or bicubic as damaging algorithm they have to do it. i simply have no clue how to work around it.
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Ah yes, you're right, of course. Thanks for the heads-up. I've modified my post with the tech specs accordingly. I believe we should be able to use 16bit input/output with the TensorCores. It might require re-training our neural networks, though.
still plenty bits.
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I'm not sure if I can do that within D3D9. I might have to switch to D3D11 to make that work, but I'm not sure.
not a programmer but DX11 PS 5.0 and win 8 or newer according to AMD. didn't expect the envy to be DX related and i have no clue what API you are going to use for tensor cores may guess would be cuda and that can do FP 16 for general computing too.
maybe going directly to DX12 not a fan of win 10 but if you want to use cutting edge tensor cores and such things DX11 isn't the new kid anymore and if you are already doing such a drastic change giving yourself more possibilities maybe better in the long term. Microsoft really doesn't stop with new features for dx12.
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post #846 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 04:35 AM
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10TFlops is nice, but we actually have about 100Tflops in the Envy Pro Cinema (only for AI / Neural Network processing, though).
What sort of GPU can do 100Tflops? Even the 2080Ti is only 13.4Tflops. And that's a $1500 card. Or, perhaps we are not talking about the same kind of metrics here?

My point is I think AMD has taken over Nvidia in terms of performance / price now and whatever card you're getting from Nvidia, you can get it half price with same performance with AMD... or, am I making some false assumptions here?
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post #847 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 04:46 AM
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I think 100Tflops will be when he use Neural Network processing...
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post #848 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:07 AM
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he has absolutely clarified that these number come from tensor cores and that a 2080 ti is planned as a GPU which can do more then 100 TFLOP of specialised operation using tensor cores something AMD doesn't have. on top of it nvidia as dedicated cores for int32 FP32 and tensor core which can do FP16 for over 25 TFLOPs when none special "AI" operation are used.

a 5700 XT is close to a 2070 super in real world performance like 5 % slow and is only 50 to 100 bucks cheaper that's not totally a deal breaker if you go to 2080 performance level AMD has nothing to counter that. on paper a 2070 super has 9.2 TFLOPs and a 5700 XT 10 TFLOPs that not useful anymore right?.
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post #849 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by riddle View Post
I think 100Tflops will be when he use Neural Network processing...
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
he has absolutely clarified that these number come from tensor cores and that a 2080 ti is planned as a GPU which can do more then 100 TFLOP of specialised operation using tensor cores something AMD doesn't have. on top of it nvidia as dedicated cores for int32 FP32 and tensor core which can do FP16 for over 25 TFLOPs when none special "AI" operation are used.

a 5700 XT is close to a 2070 super in real world performance like 5 % slow and is only 50 to 100 bucks cheaper that's not totally a deal breaker if you go to 2080 performance level AMD has nothing to counter that. on paper a 2070 super has 9.2 TFLOPs and a 5700 XT 10 TFLOPs that not useful anymore right?.
Ok, getting too technical for me.. thanks for clarifying though. I guess whatever works..
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post #850 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:14 AM
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he has absolutely clarified that these number come from tensor cores and that a 2080 ti is planned as a GPU which can do more then 100 TFLOP of specialised operation using tensor cores something AMD doesn't have. on top of it nvidia as dedicated cores for int32 FP32 and tensor core which can do FP16 for over 25 TFLOPs when none special "AI" operation are used.

a 5700 XT is close to a 2070 super in real world performance like 5 % slow and is only 50 to 100 bucks cheaper that's not totally a deal breaker if you go to 2080 performance level AMD has nothing to counter that. on paper a 2070 super has 9.2 TFLOPs and a 5700 XT 10 TFLOPs that not useful anymore right?.
So, you think the card under the hood is a 2080?
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post #851 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:16 AM
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So, you think the card under the hood is a 2080?

madshi himself said that in post #838
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post #852 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:20 AM
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Ok, getting too technical for me.. thanks for clarifying though. I guess whatever works..

If there are some cload processing, this can make some sense. If you have an internet connection to ENVY, you can expect additional computing power via network.
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post #853 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:23 AM
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it's a 2080 ti. he said it him self.
they are just very realistic with there Tflop numbers a 2080 ti can do more if it is able to boost.
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post #854 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:27 AM
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it's a 2080 ti. he said it him self.
they are just very realistic with there Tflop numbers a 2080 ti can do more if it is able to boost.
So, what would be the difference between the tensor cores and AMD's cuda cores?
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post #855 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
he has absolutely clarified that these number come from tensor cores and that a 2080 ti is planned as a GPU which can do more then 100 TFLOP of specialised operation using tensor cores something AMD doesn't have. on top of it nvidia as dedicated cores for int32 FP32 and tensor core which can do FP16 for over 25 TFLOPs when none special "AI" operation are used.

a 5700 XT is close to a 2070 super in real world performance like 5 % slow and is only 50 to 100 bucks cheaper that's not totally a deal breaker if you go to 2080 performance level AMD has nothing to counter that. on paper a 2070 super has 9.2 TFLOPs and a 5700 XT 10 TFLOPs that not useful anymore right?.
So, you think the card under the hood is a 2080?
You’re missing a couple letters there.
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post #856 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:46 AM
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So, what would be the difference between the tensor cores and AMD's cuda cores?
AMD "cuda cores" are called streaming processors nvidia calls it's GPU cores CUDA cores.
AMD doesn't have an alternative to tensor cores and computer games clearly don't care right now and may never do.

tensor cores are "AI cores" they are specialised cores for specialised work cases they can do matrix operation something that would be terrible slow using normal cores and it looks like envy is planning on making good use of them.
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post #857 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 05:54 AM
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Compliments again. Thinking about the new Envy Pro, the Old Teranex units comes to mind in the most complimentary of ways. Think 2019 Terananex with 2019 processing power, and videophile software. Well done !!!!!!
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post #858 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 06:05 AM
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AMD "cuda cores" are called streaming processors nvidia calls it's GPU cores CUDA cores.
AMD doesn't have an alternative to tensor cores and computer games clearly don't care right now and may never do.

tensor cores are "AI cores" they are specialised cores for specialised work cases they can do matrix operation something that would be terrible slow using normal cores and it looks like envy is planning on making good use of them.
Ah Ok... now the 'AI' reference starts to make sense... thanks.
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Sorry in advance if this has been asked... haven’t read through all the posts.

Is it upgradable? So when the next boards / cards come out will there be an upgrade program? User or send in?

Thanks
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post #860 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 09:16 AM
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Congratulations on launching! Will it output 3D for the DCR lens properly?
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post #861 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 09:36 AM
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Sorry in advance if this has been asked... haven’t read through all the posts.

Is it upgradable? So when the next boards / cards come out will there be an upgrade program? User or send in?

Thanks
"- Pro Cinema model will get hardware upgrades (at a cost) to keep it up-to-date"

This and other info is in madshi's announcement posts.
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post #862 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 10:05 AM
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ENVY PRO

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm not sure yet which design I'll end up with. I could imagine doubling 24p to 48p and then using frame blending to move that to 60p. Or I could also throw away one original frame and replace it with 4 interpolated ones to achieve true 60p.
Will the frame interpolation feature be available on the base model, and if so, will it get upgrades as things evolve and improve ?


And what about the computer based MadVR, is there an FI mode somewhere that's available that I'm not seeing ?
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post #864 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 10:16 AM
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ENVY PRO
No-one wants to see the front... Where's the back, man!
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post #865 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 10:42 AM
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I don't understand the high price, 10k and 5k?? I can build a HTPC with a capture card and MadVR for a fraction of the cost. $2k, maybe less?
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post #866 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 10:48 AM
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and you get that to be HDCP compatible?
there is a 2080 ti in there BTW.
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post #867 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 10:58 AM
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I don't understand the high price, 10k and 5k?? I can build a HTPC with a capture card and MadVR for a fraction of the cost. $2k, maybe less?
I don't think there are capture cards that will do 4K HDR 4:2:2 input and pass it easily to a video player right now. I know elgato makes a card they claim to support 4k60 w/HDR, but I don't know if you can pass the video to media player and have MadVR process it.

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and you get that to be HDCP compatible?
there is a 2080 ti in there BTW.
HDCP can be stripped out, but I don't think there's anything that does it while maintaining 4k/HDR/etc. A 2080ti is like $1200, right?

So if you wanted to somehow replicate this box, you would need a PC around $1800, some way to strip the HDCP that preserves resolution/chroma/HDR, and a hypothetical input card that also supports the full input signal.

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post #868 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 11:10 AM
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No-one wants to see the front... Where's the back, man!
I've been asked not to place photos yet, as it's still a prototype mode

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post #869 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 11:51 AM
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Now here is the question:

Could the Envy be used as a gaming machine? What´s the CPU and RAM situation?

Man, would I hate myself owning a 2080ti and not being capable of running video games with ultra settings

At least it would be well worth the +5k$...
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post #870 of 1467 Old 09-12-2019, 12:06 PM
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[quote=Eventidal;58548146]Now here is the question:



Could the Envy be used as a gaming machine? What´s the CPU and RAM situation?



Man, would I hate myself owning a 2080ti and not being capable of running video games with ultra settings



At least it would be well worth the +5k$...[/quote @madshi answered this in post 751. No it would not be, due to the latency all the processing introduces.

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