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post #61 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Why do people think it's going to be over $1000 when you can build a pc to do madvr for $500? If its more than $400, might as well spend the extra for a htpc.
Because it has to (A) account for all use scenarios, which means it has to be seriously overpowered to do NGU upscaling (unless, of course, it isn't a full madVR replacement) of say 480p up to 4k resolution, and (B) needs to use new, not used parts, and (C) needs to provide madshi some profit.

Look at PCPartPicker- an i3-8100 + RTX 2060 with 8gb of ram using all new parts costs around $700. That is about the minimum system you need to be assured that you can run most everything through madVR. Again though, if it is just a madVR tone mapper, that is a different matter

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post #62 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 07:00 AM
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Because it has to (A) account for all use scenarios, which means it has to be seriously overpowered to do NGU upscaling (unless, of course, it isn't a full madVR replacement) of say 480p up to 4k resolution, and (B) needs to use new, not used parts, and (C) needs to provide madshi some profit.

Look at PCPartPicker- an i3-8100 + GTX 2060 with 8gb of ram using all new parts costs around $700. That is about the minimum system you need to be assured that you can run most everything through madVR. Again though, if it is just a madVR tone mapper, that is a different matter
If it's over $1000, very few will be purchased. Minimum system doesn't need the 2060. 1060 is the minimum and the 1660 cards are going to be around $220.
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post #63 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Why do people think it's going to be over $1000 when you can build a pc to do madvr for $500? If its more than $400, might as well spend the extra for a htpc.
I think you're miles off the mark of what something like this will end up selling for.
Luckily you'll continue to be able to buy your own PC parts and roll your own.
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post #64 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
If it's over $1000, very few will be purchased. Minimum system doesn't need the 2060. 1060 is the minimum and the 1660 cards are going to be around $220.
That was minimum for 4k upscaling (and even then it might choke on NGU from 720p up to 4k). But even if we take your scenario---1660 (since we need something new, as madshi can't build thousands of these with used parts)---that only cuts about $130 from the price. So, we are still looking at $650 in just part costs, with no R&D, no labor, no overhead, and no profit.
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post #65 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
That was minimum for 4k upscaling (and even then it might choke on NGU from 720p up to 4k). But even if we take your scenario---1660 (since we need something new, as madshi can't build thousands of these with used parts)---that only cuts about $130 from the price. So, we are still looking at $650 in just part costs, with no R&D, no labor, no overhead, and no profit.
The problem is that I'm not talking about myself. Been on the forum long enough to realize that not too many are going to purchase something for over $1000 when it can be done for close to half. There are a few who would though. When a 4k gaming pc that can do madvr on high settings can be done for a little more than $1200, there will not be much of an incentive for an over $1000 device that can't do that. It sounds great but it cannot cost 3-4x more than uhd players that do good tone mapping and upscaling.
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post #66 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 08:06 AM
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The problem is that I'm not talking about myself. Been on the forum long enough to realize that not too many are going to purchase something for over $1000 when it can be done for close to half. There are a few who would though. When a 4k gaming pc that can do madvr on high settings can be done for a little more than $1200, there will not be much of an incentive for an over $1000 device that can't do that. It sounds great but it cannot cost 3-4x more than uhd players that do good tone mapping and upscaling.
I think the Lumagen sets a good precedent for what people are willing to pay for this type of component. Everything it does could be handled by a mid-range gaming PC except for the HDMI input and it retails $4000 and up.

I would be pretty surprised if madshi's device ends up being less than $2000 and it could easily be 50%-100% more than that. That may be too rich for your blood, but a lot of people - myself included - would be tempted to drop that kind of cash for a turn key best-in-class tone mapping solution over building a PC. Hell, I've built several PCs and am in the process of building an RTX 2080 based gaming PC and I'm still very interested at that price.

Now if there's some way he can pull it off for less than $1000 I'll be doing a happy dance, but I don't think anyone should be hoping for that. It's not going to be priced at the level of a build-it-yourself mid-level gaming PC. No way.
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post #67 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 08:18 AM
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Rough ETA for the device? This year? 2020? Wondering if I should cancel my HTPC build planned for this month.
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post #68 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 08:33 AM
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Rough ETA for the device? This year? 2020? Wondering if I should cancel my HTPC build planned for this month.
We will know more when madshi has more info to give us---hopefully soon, but it may be awhile

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post #69 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 08:40 AM
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Personally I picture this device as essentially a Darbee, but instead of image sharpening, it does tone-mapping, and that's all.

So a really small box with 1 HDMI in and 1 HDMI out, HDCP compliant, and some interface to change the tone-mapping settings. HDR goes in, dynamically tone-mapped SDR comes out based on the display nits you set and the dynamic tuning value you prefer.

The processing power required for just tone-mapping is not too crazy and they could probably make a box for $500 to do just that.

Obviously if it ends up being more than just tone-mapping, then it would probably significantly add to the cost as it would need significantly more processing power.
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post #70 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 08:40 AM
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The note only mentions HDR tone mapping for 4k. It's possible that an FPGA or lower spec GPU can handle the pixel shading algorithms without needing the costly high end specs.

No Hard Drive needed (16Gb EMC should work for app and settings)
Low RAM needed as it would be mainly used as the video buffer (2GB would get approximately 5 minutes of buffer at UHD minus whatever is needed for the app)
ARM SOC (Can it be done on a Snapdragon 855 with Adreno 640?)
HDMI/HDCP2.2 input and output

Am I dreaming? Seems possible for $150, but would require MadVR to be ported to ARM
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post #71 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Personally I picture this device as essentially a Darbee, but instead of image sharpening, it does tone-mapping, and that's all.

So a really small box with 1 HDMI in and 1 HDMI out, HDCP compliant, and some interface to change the tone-mapping settings. HDR goes in, dynamically tone-mapped SDR comes out based on the display nits you set and the dynamic tuning value you prefer.

The processing power required for just tone-mapping is not too crazy and they could probably make a box for $500 to do just that.

Obviously if it ends up being more than just tone-mapping, then it would probably significantly add to the cost as it would need significantly more processing power.
If Panasonic can do a UHD Blu Ray player with excellent HDR Tone Mapping for $499, then a stand alone HDR Tone Mapping box should cost less than that. You don't need an expensive/powerful GPU just for tone mapping.

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post #72 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by YumMasterYum View Post
The note only mentions HDR tone mapping for 4k. It's possible that an FPGA or lower spec GPU can handle the pixel shading algorithms without needing the costly high end specs.

No Hard Drive needed (16Gb EMC should work for app and settings)
Low RAM needed as it would be mainly used as the video buffer (2GB would get approximately 5 minutes of buffer at UHD minus whatever is needed for the app)
ARM SOC (Can it be done on a Snapdragon 855 with Adreno 640?)
HDMI/HDCP2.2 input and output

Am I dreaming? Seems possible for $150, but would require MadVR to be ported to ARM
Probably more than that but some are talking about $2000-4000. Few can afford that but the majority will not.
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post #73 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 10:40 AM
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If Panasonic can do a UHD Blu Ray player with excellent HDR Tone Mapping for $499, then a stand alone HDR Tone Mapping box should cost less than that. You don't need an expensive/powerful GPU just for tone mapping.
But that is comparing apples versus oranges though

The MadVR tone-mapping is the absolute ultimate, namely full frame-by-frame optimization akin to Dolby Vision but with respect to all HDR10 content. In other words, every single frame is analyzed and optimum tone-mapping applied on a frame-by-frame basis. Whereas, the Panasonic simply reads the HDR10 static metadata and applies one singular instance of tone-mapping to the whole movie. Not only is this comparatively significantly inferior, but also there are numerous instances wherein the static metadata is either missing or corrupt. Whereas, because the MadVR tone-mapping analyzes the actual content itself, the static metadata whether present or otherwise is irrelevant; and so the MadVR will be applying optimal frame-by-frame tone-mapping even in instances wherein the HDR10 static metadata is missing or corrupt

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post #74 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
If Panasonic can do a UHD Blu Ray player with excellent HDR Tone Mapping for $499, then a stand alone HDR Tone Mapping box should cost less than that. You don't need an expensive/powerful GPU just for tone mapping.

If trinnov can sell an average pc box for 15k, then so could madshi?
I am joking of course, I consider trinnov to be the best processor out there (actually ordered one), but I am also trying to make a point.
It is largely the software that makes the difference. Trinnov provides the best room correction in the world, just like madvr provides the best tone mapping out there.

I understand it is not the same thing, as things change rapidly in the video world and big companies adapt.


I have to say this is a unique and weird situation. There are a lot of users that take for granted that the software/firmware is free and expect to be charged for the hardware of the new device. Probably rightfully so, as they can have the same software for free on their pc. So in a way the new device has to compete against itself. I guess we will have to wait and see.
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post #75 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 10:55 AM
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But that is comparing apples versus oranges though

The MadVR tone-mapping is the absolute ultimate, namely full frame-by-frame optimization akin to Dolby Vision but with respect to all HDR10 content. In other words, every single frame is analyzed and optimum tone-mapping applied on a frame-by-frame basis. Whereas, the Panasonic simply reads the HDR10 static metadata and applies one singular instance of tone-mapping to the whole movie. Not only is this comparatively significantly inferior, but also there are numerous instances wherein the static metadata is either missing or corrupt. Whereas, because the MadVR tone-mapping analyzes the actual content itself, the static metadata whether present or otherwise is irrelevant; and so the MadVR will be applying optimal frame-by-frame tone-mapping even in instances wherein the HDR10 static metadata is missing or corrupt

And with an HDMI input it would do so for all sources, not just UHD discs.

Additionally it would be a niche product at any price and have to make up the high upfront costs of hardware development and manufacturing, HDMI/HDCP licensing, etc. on much lower volume.
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post #76 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 10:58 AM
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But that is comparing apples versus oranges though

The MadVR tone-mapping is the absolute ultimate, namely full frame-by-frame optimization akin to Dolby Vision but with respect to all HDR10 content. In other words, every single frame is analyzed and optimum tone-mapping applied on a frame-by-frame basis. Whereas, the Panasonic simply reads the HDR10 static metadata and applies one singular instance of tone-mapping to the whole movie. Not only is this comparatively significantly inferior, but also there are numerous instances wherein the static metadata is either missing or corrupt. Whereas, because the MadVR tone-mapping analyzes the actual content itself, the static metadata whether present or otherwise is irrelevant; and so the MadVR will be applying optimal frame-by-frame tone-mapping even in instances wherein the HDR10 static metadata is missing or corrupt

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And with an HDMI input it would do so for all sources, not just UHD discs.

Additionally it would be a niche product at any price and have to make up the high upfront costs of hardware development and manufacturing, HDMI/HDCP licensing, etc. on much lower volume.
I would have to think Panasonic or some other company is already working on a player with frame by frame tone mapping.

But I would love a MadVR unit that would upscale and tone map and work for all my components and not require me to build a PC!
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post #77 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
If Panasonic can do a UHD Blu Ray player with excellent HDR Tone Mapping for $499, then a stand alone HDR Tone Mapping box should cost less than that. You don't need an expensive/powerful GPU just for tone mapping.
Hdfury needs two devices that cost together ~550$ in order to achieve 4k HDR to 1080p SDR tone mapping.

When asked about a device that would do 4k HDR to 4k SDR, their reply was that it would cost too much. And hdfury boxes don't offer image processing the way madvr and Lumagen do.
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post #78 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 01:15 PM
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But that is comparing apples versus oranges though

The MadVR tone-mapping is the absolute ultimate, namely full frame-by-frame optimization akin to Dolby Vision but with respect to all HDR10 content. In other words, every single frame is analyzed and optimum tone-mapping applied on a frame-by-frame basis. Whereas, the Panasonic simply reads the HDR10 static metadata and applies one singular instance of tone-mapping to the whole movie. Not only is this comparatively significantly inferior, but also there are numerous instances wherein the static metadata is either missing or corrupt. Whereas, because the MadVR tone-mapping analyzes the actual content itself, the static metadata whether present or otherwise is irrelevant; and so the MadVR will be applying optimal frame-by-frame tone-mapping even in instances wherein the HDR10 static metadata is missing or corrupt


Agreed. It will need to have some type of GPU that can handle and process 4k. That cost is not cheap. But for tone mapping, more than $500 is going to be problematic for buyers. I know some will pay $1000+ but that some is significantly less than the majority.
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post #79 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 01:58 PM
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Agreed. It will need to have some type of GPU that can handle and process 4k. That cost is not cheap. But for tone mapping, more than $500 is going to be problematic for buyers. I know some will pay $1000+ but that some is significantly less than the majority.
IMO if it's the full MadVR (as opposed to solely HDR tonemapping) in a box, with an HDMI Input, not only is it extremely unlikely that it would cost less than $500, but it will without a doubt be totally worth paying $1000+; and I think that many people will be very happy to pay this, myself included, especially given this will be considerably less expensive as compared with a Lumagen PRO. Wherein, even $2000+ would still be comparatively less expensive!

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post #80 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 02:21 PM
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IMO if it's the full MadVR (as opposed to solely HDR tonemapping) in a box, with an HDMI Input, not only is it extremely unlikely that it would cost less than $500, but it will without a doubt be totally worth paying $1000+; and I think that many people will be very happy to pay this, myself included, especially given this will be considerably less expensive as compared with a Lumagen PRO. Wherein, even $2000+ would still be comparatively less expensive!

It will definitely depend on how many unit will he expect to sell. People can buy a PC now to run madvr without building anything. He would just be doing a few enthusiasts a favor by offering an expensive model that's close to the cost a lumagen. Or do he want to sell to the majority to actually earn a profit. Hopefully he can do both. I'll probably buy either
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post #81 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 03:39 PM
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As mentioned I can't really say much right now, but after reading through all your posts, I feel the need to manage expectations a bit and to clear a few basic things up.

1. madVR is about way more than just tone mapping, as is the Envy.

2. madVR's algorithms require tons of processing power. There will be hardware parts in the Envy that each cost more than an HD Fury device. The initial release is going to be for the high-end home theater market. Pricing is not set yet, but I can say that if you're looking for prices anywhere near to an HD Fury device I'm afraid you will be deeply disappointed.

3. There are still some hurdles to clear before I know when (or even if) the Envy will be available, but I hope it will be available soon. Ideally I would have waited longer before pre-announcing the Envy, but interest in HTPCs for madVR has really taken off lately, mainly due to all the recent improvements in HDR tone mapping, so I wanted people to know about the Envy in case they prefer not to build an HTPC and wanted something that needs no tweaking and is more versatile.

I hope this helps clear some things up, as I can't really say more at this point, but I'll try to release some tidbits along the way.
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post #82 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 03:56 PM
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As mentioned I can't really say much right now, but after reading through all your posts, I feel the need to manage expectations a bit and to clear a few basic things up.

1. madVR is about way more than just tone mapping, as is the Envy.

2. madVR's algorithms require tons of processing power. There will be hardware parts in the Envy that each cost more than an HD Fury device. The initial release is going to be for the high-end home theater market. Pricing is not set yet, but I can say that if you're looking for prices anywhere near to an HD Fury device I'm afraid you will be deeply disappointed.

3. There are still some hurdles to clear before I know when (or even if) the Envy will be available, but I hope it will be available soon. Ideally I would have waited longer before pre-announcing the Envy, but interest in HTPCs for madVR has really taken off lately, mainly due to all the recent improvements in HDR tone mapping, so I wanted people to know about the Envy in case they prefer not to build an HTPC and wanted something that needs no tweaking and is more versatile.

I hope this helps clear some things up, as I can't really say more at this point, but I'll try to release some tidbits along the way.
Good job, everyone! We got him to give vague price guidance. Now let's speculate wildly and argue about the release date!
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post #83 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 04:43 PM
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Personally I think in terms of scaling HP it should be aimed at NGU medium MAX. Too much higher than that and the coast is going to syrocket.

Even NGU Low is significantly better than almost all scaling solutions out there. It really needs to be a balance for this thing to totally take off and fly off the shelves as it were.

Perhaps later you can have an ultimate version, OR, build something where we can stick our own video cards in and autodetect a series of settings based on the video card used. Aside from the HDMI card this is going to be the most costly part in the box I think.

Its probably also going to need to run windows I am guessing, so its likely to really be a PC underneath it all, so there is also license cost there.

Just a hunch.

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post #84 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 05:09 PM
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Why do people think it's going to be over $1000 when you can build a pc to do madvr for $500? If its more than $400, might as well spend the extra for a htpc.
Minimum video card alone for decent upscaling for madVR is a GTX 1070 / RTX 2060. Go price those then reevaluate your statement. And even my 1080TI struggles keeping up at NGU Very High. I run NGU High.
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post #85 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 06:32 PM
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Can I buy it in Asia?
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post #86 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 07:02 PM
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Minimum video card alone for decent upscaling for madVR is a GTX 1070 / RTX 2060. Go price those then reevaluate your statement. And even my 1080TI struggles keeping up at NGU Very High. I run NGU High.
Everyone has been completely missing my point. Before it was cleared up, the envy only mentioned tone mapping. To get upscaling on high settings, of course you need a higher end GPU. For tone mapping, a 1060 will do. To max out the settings in 4k you'll need a rtx 2080 ti.
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post #87 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 07:11 PM
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Good job, everyone! We got him to give vague price guidance. Now let's speculate wildly and argue about the release date!
The initial release will be high end, so another one will be cheaper. I'm down for the high end model if it's at least 2 inputs and 2 outputs. Guess I'll get prepared for $1500+
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post #88 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 07:27 PM
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The initial release will be high end, so another one will be cheaper. I'm down for the high end model if it's at least 2 inputs and 2 outputs. Guess I'll get prepared for $1500+
Can't we let madshi perhaps develop the product before raining all over the thread with what prices should be, could be, what low ball offers you'd pay etc? Wait to see what the product is, if it exists, then decide if you're in or out. There'll be a market for it at any price. I can't imagine how discouraging it would be for me, as a developer of something, to barely mention anything then be smacked with posts of "Im in at $400" etc. Geez. Unbelievable.

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post #89 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 08:55 PM
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Anyone up for chatting about high end wines & funny cars while we wait for real updates???
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post #90 of 1646 Old 03-01-2019, 10:15 PM
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Anyone up for chatting about high end wines & funny cars while we wait for real updates???
Might as well since anticipating things are off the table.
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