madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Virtual inputs will be essential for you if the Envy is limited to only a single physical input. It means you have a separate input profile for each physical source even though there is one physical input.

It means you can have separate 3D LUT's, or tone mapping parameters, or scaling settings, or general video settings, or aspect ratio settings, or frame rate settings for each physical device. For example you might want different settings for your Cable box, than you PS4, than your Oppo 205.
FWIW, I've asked Ric to get feedback from calibrators and installers at CEDIA about this. Ric says calibrators confirm that they would like to have some kind of preset or profile or virtual input or whatever to switch between calibrations/settings for different source devices. I've still asked Ric to gather more information about how and why and in which way they would need and use that.

Generally, I'm not a big fan of simply doing something the way it was always done. I prefer questioning old ways, if only to see if I can find a better solution to an underlying problem. But if none can be found, of course going back to proven methods makes sense.

But anyway, we are collecting the feedback we get here at AVSForum, at CEDIA and other meetings afterwards, and will adjust accordingly. One good thing about our platform is that it's very easy to develop for. So changes can be done relatively easily.

One thing I need to check is if the AVR passes some information about the source device through to the Envy or not. If it does, it would make it possible to automatically switch profiles or virtual inputs or whatever.
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Last edited by madshi; 09-13-2019 at 05:28 AM.
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post #932 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 05:30 AM
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Maybe not. But is it completely fair to expect us to do something nobody else does (at the same price level)?
I´m not expecting anything, i´m just sharing my thoughts.
You know i´m a strong supporter of the Envy. I´m challenging technical and business topics because i am. You should take the first feedback here in the forum and from the booth to rethink a few decisions. If, after that, you´re still confident with your line-up, great.
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post #933 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 05:31 AM
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We actually did check out Nvidia 2080 Ti cards with factory installed watercooling. But we found that availability of such cards is pretty unreliable, which could put us into production trouble. Also, we were surprised to find that such an 2080 Ti still comes with an additional cooler with 3 big fans on it. So while it might help achieve lower temperatures on the GPU itself, we were not convinced it would be much more silent.



Custom installing watercooling ourselves is out of the question, of course. That would simply be too complicated and time consuming to build.
Fair enough! At least you guys looked into it. Obviously in this type of product regardless of the ultimate price there's going to be compromises. Given the power under the hood, I'd say having a large case isn't such a bad thing. Plus when those upgrades do come it'll probably be easier to work on.

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post #934 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 05:39 AM
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FWIW, from what I'm hearing from Ric, response at CEDIA is *fantastic*. The booth is very crowded and the feedback is generally very positive.

That is honestley "fantastic" to hear.

MadVR ( HTPC ) combined with my Z1/RS4500 is for me the "ultimate combination for front projection....so a HUGE "THANKYOU" for the privellage of being able to use the MadVR software ....... i really do hope the Envy is a huge success for you..
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post #935 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 05:40 AM
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i "feel" the level of " Enthusiasm " and "Excitement" has diminished by a good amount ..
That's also my impression and I am wondering why. The price tag seems to shock many despite it meets about what had been speculated before by many. Envy is IMO pricewise about same catagory like Lumagen - precisely like it had to be assumed just due the hardware requirements.

I might be wrong but I exspect to get a very lean and optimized product that offers better DTM than Lumagen due to the unparalleled know-how of madshi and the high processing power that comes with Envy. That is why I have decided to await Envy's market entry and not to buy a Radiance.

My suspicion is that Envy is lacking the lobby by the opinion leaders in the industry to support it. I am puzzled that nobody dared to compare the PC based madVR with Lumagen so far and reported about the results. Lumagen is established and nobody seems wanting to mess up with them. However madVR must clearly challenge them and say so in order to prepare the market for Envy.

The market is actually such that the PC guys have installed the free madVR SW and are very happy with their low cost solution. Those guys with the big screens and deep pockets (owners of VW5000, RS4500, SIM 2 ... ) are typically already using a Lumagen (incl calibration) and seem to be happy as well, particularly since the recent updates. So no real immediate demand from those 2 customer groups. So why should they buy an Envy ? Why should anybody ?

So what is missing IMO is a clear statement and obvious evidence that madVR is indeed better than anything on the market for HDR tonemapping, upscaling etc. Of course people are wondering why they should by an Envy all of a sudden when a Radiance Pro including DTM is on the market since quite a while. Here the lobbying had done its job flanked of course by the recent software updates.

So my advice to madVR is to go out to the important dealer / installer to demonstrate that you are indeed better than anybody on the market.

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post #936 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 05:52 AM
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Maybe not. But is it completely fair to expect us to do something nobody else does (at the same price level)?
I don't think fairness comes into it, I am just commenting on what makes an appealing product. A GPU based product that is not upgradable is not one that is appealing to me (unless it is much cheaper).

I think the comparison is a bit of moot point as no one else has a hardware base that is a naturally modular one which you have to actively lock down, even something like a NUC has an upgrade path via an external GPU for example.
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post #937 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:02 AM
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Do all h265 decoders support that? If so, wouldn't they also support fully lossless decoding?
CU-lossless only allows the encoder to use lossless if the bitrate allows it. using it doesn't result in lossloss encode and as far as i can see it is part of the normal bitstream so every decoder should be able to handle that.
https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/lossless.html
i guess it is far more simple to ask someone that knows that.

i have just my doubt that hardware player can decode lossless just the throughput should be to much for it and it is only needed in this very special case.
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The EDID spec actually allows to specify any resolution and framerate to have 4:2:0 support.
looks like 2.1 can do it without any doubt:
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1511934073
maybe devices just uses 1.4 spec for everything in that is in that spec for compatibility and that's why it is not supported for sub 50 hz on most devices.
a PC can't do it for now.

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We actually did check out Nvidia 2080 Ti cards with factory installed watercooling. But we found that availability of such cards is pretty unreliable, which could put us into production trouble. Also, we were surprised to find that such an 2080 Ti still comes with an additional cooler with 3 big fans on it. So while it might help achieve lower temperatures on the GPU itself, we were not convinced it would be much more silent.

Custom installing watercooling ourselves is out of the question, of course. That would simply be too complicated and time consuming to build.
the laws of thermodynamic doesn't stop even at water cooling.
watercooling is pretty much just transferring the heat faster to the cooler the cooler still needs the same amount of cooling to get the heat out of the system.
GPU watercooling pretty much only exist so people can talk about how cool there system is or for overclocking it's not a real world advantage which makes financial sense.
in terms of reliability just the existent of a pump makes the water cooling system loose.
if you want to keep the noise level in check make sure the case has good ventilation that's far more important.

a 9900k has a TDP of 95 watts a 2080 ti of 250 watt that not comparable. AIO CPU cooler are far cheaper then GPU watercooler and have a far easier job.
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post #938 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:10 AM
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I think showing Envy on a 55 inch OLED 4K is unjustified - the best use of Envy is in high end 4K projector set ups with light control and large screen (12 feet and above) with Nuetral Gain.
DTM is a subtle but a huge impact - the first time I watched DV in a Dolby Atmos Cinema my jaw dropped and that is what I am expecting from the Envy once it is showcased in the environment it deserves.
Not sure what the result will be but if the picture is DV like then it is a home run.
And the setup being all sources going to the Trinnov and Trinnov going to the 5000 projector was exactly what I had in mind.
I hope Envy succeeds big time - we want competition and better products - as customers that is a win win.
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post #939 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
FWIW, I've asked Ric to get feedback from calibrators and installers at CEDIA about this. Ric says calibrators confirm that they would like to have some kind of preset or profile or virtual input or whatever to switch between calibrations/settings for different source devices. I've still asked Ric to gather more information about how and why and in which way they would need and use that.

Generally, I'm not a big fan of simply doing something the way it was always done. I prefer questioning old ways, if only to see if I can find a better solution to an underlying problem. But if none can be found, of course going back to proven methods makes sense.

But anyway, we are collecting the feedback we get here at AVSForum, at CEDIA and other meetings afterwards, and will adjust accordingly. One good thing about our platform is that it's very easy to develop for. So changes can be done relatively easily.
I'm glad you are getting some usable feedback, and more importantly you are flexible enough to implement significant structural changes. Your device is selling into a very small market, and so needs to be a veritable Swiss army knife, that meets the needs of all users however obscure their needs might seem at the outset. Flexibility is key with this type of device, and the more value added functionality you add, the great scope of customers it is likely to appeal to.

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One thing I need to check is if the AVR passes some information about the source device through to the Envy or not. If it does, it would make it possible to automatically switch profiles or virtual inputs or whatever.
I think you need to let go of this AVR idea - I keep seeing it mentioned (unless you're using it in some generic sense). Your Pro Cinema model at $10k is going to be used predominantly in the realm of high end installs with $100k+ equipment lists where AVR's will be very rarely specified. More likely you'll find high end pre-pros and power amp combos. Where those pre-pro's have been installed for some time, as I've mentioned previously, you'll find many will still have legacy HDMI 1.4 input boards (think old Datasat RS20i's, Theta Casablanca's, older Trinnov units, ADA units etc) which can't pass HDCP 2.2.

So the interface from your Cinema Pro is likely to be matrix HDMI switches and distribution systems and the like, so you should really focus on what the output from those devices deliver.

Auto-switching would be good, but the majority of those high end systems likely have Cestron/Control4/Savant etc style control systems also, so as long as the Cinema Pro allows selection of presets via IP or RS232 control using the protocols those systems require, you should be fine.
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post #940 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:22 AM
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Auto-switching would be good, but the majority of those high end systems likely have Cestron/Control4/Savant etc style control systems also, so as long as the Cinema Pro allows selection of presets via IP or RS232 control using the protocols those systems require, you should be fine.
I can't impress enough - how important Integration with Cestron etc is for such a device. Users don't just have time to doodle with the control and things once they are ready to watch a movie - that is why K Escape is so popular.
They also don't have the expertise and the know how to set up the system and need a outside Integrator - to install a 500 dollar blu ray player the integration cost would be 2000 by the time you are done with control programming and calibration blah blah - not to mention down time of the theater.
If one watches two or three movies a month in their Cinema they have no time to mess around and need the system to be up and working every time they walk in.
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post #941 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:23 AM
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the laws of thermodynamic doesn't stop even at water cooling.

watercooling is pretty much just transferring the heat faster to the cooler the cooler still needs the same amount of cooling to get the heat out of the system.

GPU watercooling pretty much only exist so people can talk about how cool there system is or for overclocking it's not a real world advantage which makes financial sense.

in terms of reliability just the existent of a pump makes the water cooling system loose.

if you want to keep the noise level in check make sure the case has good ventilation that's far more important.



a 9900k has a TDP of 95 watts a 2080 ti of 250 watt that not comparable. AIO CPU cooler are far cheaper then GPU watercooler and have a far easier job.
Of course the laws of thermodynamics still apply. But one of the benefits of liquid cooling is to be able to route the heat directly to the edge of the case, allowing larger fans to more easily dissipate the heat out. The larger fans can end up being fairly silent in that situation if you use the right fans.

In any case madshi answered on this one and I accept his answer. Plus when it comes to upgrades not using liquid cooling will make it easier.

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post #942 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:33 AM
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First of great to see the ENVY getting ready to be launched.


For myself the pro version will be out of range and even the decision for the standard version is tough.
Since I have a HTPC running and I am happy with it, the key benefit would be to have other sources especcially TV and streaming services like Netflix also optimized.
Looking at an invest of 5k I am pretty close to an upgrade of my 7900 JVC which would improve the experience even more then a switch from HTPC to ENVY.
Bottom line is I will wait and see and enjoy what I have atm and who knows the prices might drop after some time or getting a used ENVY at some point. But most likely if it keeps as is that the standard version is not supporting hardware updates not even that would be an option since I could easily upgrade my HTPC to newest funky technologies and I don't want to invest 5k and be stuck.

It's great to hear free madvr for HTPC will be still further worked on and I am happy to get a payed version with extra features once it comes out (for a hopefully reasonable price )
Some ideas for the payed version:
- easy setup/finetuning interface (without the need to copy JAVs and other settings to get the best result )
- not sure if thats possible but something like a ipad app connection controlling madvr on my HTPC so I can change settings on the fly without a madvr overlay or use of a second monitor. Not sure if that would be possible already with remote desktop but most likely not since windows would have to control the remote stream and leave the video output untouched.
- some funky new AI whatever technology to improve the result even further

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post #943 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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That's also my impression and I am wondering why. The price tag seems to shock many despite it meets about what had been speculated before by many. Envy is IMO pricewise about same catagory like Lumagen - precisely like it had to be assumed just due the hardware requirements.

I might be wrong but I exspect to get a very lean and optimized product that offers better DTM than Lumagen due to the unparalleled know-how of madshi and the high processing power that comes with Envy. That is why I have decided to await Envy's market entry and not to buy a Radiance.

My suspicion is that Envy is lacking the lobby by the opinion leaders in the industry to support it. I am puzzled that nobody dared to compare the PC based madVR with Lumagen so far and reported about the results. Lumagen is established and nobody seems wanting to mess up with them. However madVR must clearly challenge them and say so in order to prepare the market for Envy.

The market is actually such that the PC guys have installed the free madVR SW and are very happy with their low cost solution. Those guys with the big screens and deep pockets (owners of VW5000, RS4500, SIM 2 ... ) are typically already using a Lumagen (incl calibration) and seem to be happy as well, particularly since the recent updates. So no real immediate demand from those 2 customer groups. So why should they buy an Envy ? Why should anybody ?

So what is missing IMO is a clear statement and obvious evidence that madVR is indeed better than anything on the market for HDR tonemapping, upscaling etc. Of course people are wondering why they should by an Envy all of a sudden when a Radiance Pro including DTM is on the market since quite a while. Here the lobbying had done its job flanked of course by the recent software updates.

So my advice to madVR is to go out to the important dealer / installer to demonstrate that you are indeed better than anybody on the market.
Well in Germany we did such a comparison between madVR htpc and Lumagen pro with a jvc N5 a couple months ago for the dynamic tone mapping switching back and forth between the 2 solutions.

The result was that madVR was clearly superior at the time being in its capacity to adapt to both very bright and very dark scenes (the MEG, Blade Runner 2049.. ).
In comparison to madVR, some scene in the MEG were clearly blown out. Also dark scenes were brighter in madVR.

When we tried to change that, to expand the range of the Lumagen, we either made dark scene darker or bright scene even more blown out.

MadVR win over LUMAGEN was so clear at that time that we did not have to look for "details" differentiating the 2 solutions like "scene detection ", smooth and unvisible change within a scene etc...

Since then a couple update have been released by Lumagen. So the comparison will have to be performed again.

However the Lumagen owner (who was quite happy before the shot out) now knows what to look for and from what he had reported, this has not been really improved/solved.

Furthermore, madVR allows you to define your "Real Nits" so that when your frame peak gets lower, you can watch the movie 1:1 with no compression whatsoever and with the intended brightness coded on the uhd bluray. Lumagen does NOT have such a control for that which can result in either having a picture brighter that coded on the uhd bluray, or just throw brightness away.

Also, while Lumagen tone mapping, it is scene by scene (by design). MadVR combines both scene by scene and frame by frame without any adaptation visible. Here again madVR is more flexible. If the first frame of a scene has a peak of 500nits, but it increases slowly to 1000 nits, madVR will adapt as fast as possible without showing any adaptation artefacts. I can only imagine that if Lumagen is using a fixed tone mapping for a scene, it may end up clipping anything above the first detected 500nits...

MadVR has also dynamic clipping algorithm to clip on purpose very tiny bit of the picture to make the picture more dynamic. It has also the highlight recovery features which works very well for skys. I do not know of anything similar in Lumagen camp.

I also love the neural network NGU 4k upscaling of madVR for 1080p content. And there is likely so much more possible with AI training for other algo.

In any case, I was not impressed with what I had seen with the Lumagen.
A new shootout will be needed when the Envy is out to see how they compare. And of course in a dark room with a projector on a large screen where both hdr dynamic tone mapping and 4k upscaling algo of the 2 competiting product can show their strengths. ;-)


For 5000euros for both, the Envy seems to have more goodies than Lumagen concerning picture quality.

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post #944 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:44 AM
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In any case, I was not impressed with what I had seen with the Lumagen.
@Soulnight You are just spoilt by madVR
Many thanks for your report. I trust your qualified opinion a lot.

P.S. Did this comparison take place @oto 's in his setup ?
I agree of course that the update(s) by Lumagen ask for a second comparison nevertheless the Lumagen owner reported that critical details also after the update still are better with madVR.

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post #945 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:48 AM
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FWIW, from what I'm hearing from Ric, response at CEDIA is *fantastic*. The booth is very crowded and the feedback is generally very positive.
Ok excellent. I really want to see this product be very successful. MadVR is an outstanding product and its a shame if people don't get to see it at its best.
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The other thing to remember about Envy, too, is that while there is obviously the hardware component side of this equation, those of us using madvr on an HTPC have seen with our own eyes just how far madshi has been able to take the software side of this over the years. Development on the Envy is still fairly new, with features still being "finalized". If you know anything about madvr, you know that "finalized" is not a word in madshi's vocabulary. I don't know how software updates will be pushed to the Envy, but, this is an aspect that should not be discounted. Consider the work being done in concert with the community on dynamic tone mapping for the regular madvr releases....that will percolate into the Envy. There is a LOT to be said about that model of development and having a device with known hardware that is controlled by the developer.
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post #947 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

One thing I need to check is if the AVR passes some information about the source device through to the Envy or not. If it does, it would make it possible to automatically switch profiles or virtual inputs or whatever.
One thing to maybe consider if you need this to be a feature. You could perhaps have a way to capture a few frames of video to trigger a profile. For example, there could be an "add a profile", then you fire up your bluray player and on the logo screen when it boots, you press a button on ENVY remote then it captures a still frame of that. When ENVY senses this still frame, it auto switches profile. It could be an oppo screen main menu also (but there may be things there that change such as the time). Anyways, you get the idea if its useful. Of course the reliability of this type of switching relies on user presenting this screen every time switching.

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post #948 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 07:03 AM
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So my advice to madVR is to go out to the important dealer / installer to demonstrate that you are indeed better than anybody on the market.
The product that give more commission to dealers is the one that will win... generally speaking. That is prob one of the reason why the Envy is priced so high.

A lot of super rich people will just go to a dealer and say, build me the best home cinema... and then whatever the dealer proposes will be IT... the 'buyer' is 9 out of 10 times not one who's lurking on forums like this...
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
The product that give more commission to dealers is the one that will win... generally speaking. That is prob one of the reason why the Envy is priced so high.

A lot of super rich people will just go to a dealer and say, build me the best home cinema... and then whatever the dealer proposes will be IT... the 'buyer' is 9 out of 10 times not one who's lurking on forums like this...
In that case, madVR Labs could also ship direct to end customers for a discount since most folks that would buy that version wouldn't be the ones you describe above where dealers just come install their system.

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post #950 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I am puzzled that nobody dared to compare the PC based madVR with Lumagen so far and reported about the results. Lumagen is established and nobody seems wanting to mess up with them. However madVR must clearly challenge them and say so in order to prepare the market for Envy.
I have often wondered the same thing!!. This is precisely the type of comparison Envy needs to establish itself as a viable alternative to other solutions. In view of the length of time PC-based Madvr and Lumagen Pro have been around it is truly surprising that even an informal comparison/GTG hasn't been done.
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post #951 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You're absolutely correct, of course.

And if metadata were always perfect, then we would lose quality by not having access to it, because having the metadata would allow us to "look into the future". However, there's no guarantee that metadata will always be perfect, or is there? I mean either it gets created by some algorithm/software, in which case the algorithm could potentially make mistakes (e.g. it could miss a scene cut, or detect too many scene cuts). Or it gets created by a human being, in which case the human being could make mistakes. Considering that metadata isn't guaranteed to be perfect, it's possible that our algorithm could potentially beat it, no?

Do you have access to the UHD HDR Benchmark disc, by any chance?

One more thought: Even if metadata were always perfect, there's also a question of whether you want tone mapping to be 100% stable within each scene/shot, or whether you want dynamic adjustments within each shot? My impression is that HDR10+ and DV aim at keeping tone mapping stable within each shot? That's not actually what madVR does. What happens if you e.g. have a big explosion at night, and before and after the explosion the same shot is very dark? If you aim at using the same tone mapping during the whole scene, I think you'll end up optimizing for the explosion to look good, which may crush any shadow detail in the dark frames before and after the explosion (within the same shot). madVR actually tries to adjust, even within each shot. Of course it's a balance act: We don't want visible brightness pumping artifacts. But we also want both dark and bright frames in one shot to be optimized on their own.

If you agree with madVR's approach to dynamically adjust even within each shot, then having metadata information about the peak in each shot might not be overly useful. What would be useful instead would be to know the full measurement data of each frame of the shot in advance (or at least information about the frames in the next few seconds of playback). But I don't think this is what HDR10+ or DV metadata provides?
I do have the Stacey Spears UHD disc and (R. Masciola's), though I don't have any DV displays; I don't really watch TV (on a TV).
I agree with much of what you wrote, though of course the exact ins and outs of how the DV display mapper actually works (the bit that is embedded in the display) isn't public as far as I know, so it would only be possible to evaluate by inspection using some such scene as your nighttime explosion for that example. Do you have such a scene that exists in DV in mind - have you tried the comparison? Would be interesting to see.

I'm currently on the fence with regards to the approach at the moment as for projection at least it is a theoretical question only.
Currently DTM in the way we enjoy it via Lumagen / MadVR is better than no dynamic metadata - which is the only other option for projection folk.
Whether or not a DV display mapper targetting projection level nits, doing whatever it does internally, would give a better or worse result than best dynamic tone mappers - I don't know, no-one who's talking has seen one!
From my own part I'm very succeptible to noticing odd luma changes in scenes ant they pull me right out of a movie (I've never been able to get used to the JVC DI) and the DTM algos are just getting to the point fairly recently for me where this doesn't happen often enough to bother me, but I'd like the option to decide which I like more.

Maybe someone who's compared DTM vs DV on smaller screens like OLEDs might be able to comment on the pros and cons of each approach - though of course it would just be an interesting data point, not necessarily indicative of projection performance.

However, one other interesting point is that I understand for much DV content, the REC709 grade comes out of the Dolby Vision process (not sure how much user intervention there is though)... So they've probably got some pretty good smarts for getting to SDR levels of nits from DV HDR masters.
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post #952 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I feel like it's better to not show the ENVY at all than to put it on that QLED 55" TV. There's only one chance to make a first impression and the first impression received by the only report on it so far is "its not better than Lumagen". There's no way you can demo your awesome upscaling on that super tiny TV where you have to be 2 feet away to even see 4K and the need for tone mapping is diminished by having such a bright display there's no good before / after etc. I probably would have opted for no demo and just gone with the announcement.
No, when I was there the press was there and many channel people. This was the one concentrated opportunity to get word out fast. It wasn't really about the demo as much as the channel and press. It would cost a ton of money to get the same exposure without the show. They can correct me if I'm wrong.

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post #953 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
DTM is a subtle but a huge impact - the first time I watched DV in a Dolby Atmos Cinema my jaw dropped and that is what I am expecting from the Envy once it is showcased in the environment it deserves.
Not sure if you are aware - DV in Dolby Cinema is not dynamically tone mapped.
It is a static transfer that is made specifically targeting the ~100nit output of the Dolby Cinema projector.
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post #954 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
One thing I need to check is if the AVR passes some information about the source device through to the Envy or not. If it does, it would make it possible to automatically switch profiles or virtual inputs or whatever.
HDfury devices report the active source player name if the player reports it. My Vertex reports my Oppo 203 source device as "OPPO UDP-203".

Oppo 203 -> Denon X4200W > HDfury Vertex > LG B7A OLED Display

The Denon is passing the information along to the Vertex in an SPD Infoframe (Source Product Description). For Oppo UDP-203:

83:01:19:70:4f:50:50:4f:00:00:00:00:55:44:50:2d:32:30:33:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:0a
__________OPPO_______________UDP-203


If I power off the Oppo, the Vertex then reports the source device as "DENON AVR-X4200W".

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post #955 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
Not being critical of your technology at all . I Was very intrigued . I have been using Lumagen pro with eight HDMI Ins and 4 outs and all cards being 18 GHz . I input all my video sources into Lumagen and output HDMI audio from Lumagen to Trinnov . That for me works the best . I recently had issues with my Lumagen and have been trying to trouble shoot and decide whether to get it repaired or buy a new one when I incidentally saw this thread yesterday . I have never looked into MadVR before that . The reason I compared to the Pro envy was because , I was using Lumagen’️s highest end model for comparison . I understand that Envy pro would have lot more processing power , I haven’️t done enough reading into MadVR if it will translate into much better picture in my case ( I use Sony 5000 ES with ISCO DLP 1.25 lens on 16’️ wide Screen Excellence Neo AT screen ) . But dedicated Audio only HDMI out from video processor is a must for me . Again will look more into it .
Just because you've been using the lumagen this way doesn't mean it's the only way things can be set up. Why can you not have your sources all connected to your Trinnov and the output from that processed through the ENVY or Lumagen to the 5000ES? The Trinnov is made to handle HDMI input of both audio and video, right? And the Trinnov is capable of outputting whatever HDMI input it receives right back out just like all the cheaper AVR/processors on the market, right?
I never said that was the only way , but connecting all video sources directly to video processor makes sense as you can tweak video settings per input . Moreover it takes out one additional component in video chain to cause hand shake issues .
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post #956 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
In that case, madVR Labs could also ship direct to end customers for a discount since most folks that would buy that version wouldn't be the ones you describe above where dealers just come install their system.

As someone who works for a custom integrator, I can say with confidence that we would not work with a company that does this (not my choice).


This is the unfornatue model: Have a dealer network and build in enough margin to make them happy. Raises the cost significantly, but keeps the burden of marketing and sales off you mostly. You could also sell direct, but you would upset your dealers if you sold for less than they sell/below your own MSRP.


or


No dealer net work, direct sales only. Lowers cost cause less margin needed. Now you have to also do more marketing and sales. You rely solely on the consumer to make the decision. What if the consumer doesn't know about your product? What if they just go with something else because their integrator told them to?


As enthusiasts, we obviously know about this product. But the Envy Pro is trying to get into some BIG NAME CLIENTS theaters, not everyones media room. They clearly understand they might be leaving the enthusiast behind, hence the non Pro model. It not having an upgrade path planned at this time is definitely concerning. I'm sure though Ric and madshi are listening and will figure out the best way forward.


As I've said many times in the past, thank you so much for all your hard work madshi. I've enjoyed using madVR for nearly a decade, so I wish you all the success you deserve. I am definitely interested in a proposed madVR Pro software, but one thing at a time. Make the Envy a success!
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post #957 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post

HDfury devices report the active source player name if the player reports it. My Vertex reports my Oppo 203 source device as "OPPO UDP-203".

Oppo 203 -> Denon X4200W > HDfury Vertex > LG B7A OLED Display

The Denon is passing the information along to the Vertex in an SPD Infoframe (Source Product Description). For Oppo UDP-203:

83:01:19:70:4f:50:50:4f:00:00:00:00:55:44:50:2d:32:30:33:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:0a
__________OPPO_______________UDP-203


If I power off the Oppo, the Vertex then reports the source device as "DENON AVR-X4200W".
I wouldn't like to bet money this is always the case with other devices... but it would certainly be cool to use it if it is available.
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post #958 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
Not being critical of your technology at all . I Was very intrigued . I have been using Lumagen pro with eight HDMI Ins and 4 outs and all cards being 18 GHz . I input all my video sources into Lumagen and output HDMI audio from Lumagen to Trinnov . That for me works the best . I recently had issues with my Lumagen and have been trying to trouble shoot and decide whether to get it repaired or buy a new one when I incidentally saw this thread yesterday . I have never looked into MadVR before that . The reason I compared to the Pro envy was because , I was using Lumagen’️s highest end model for comparison . I understand that Envy pro would have lot more processing power , I haven’️t done enough reading into MadVR if it will translate into much better picture in my case ( I use Sony 5000 ES with ISCO DLP 1.25 lens on 16’️ wide Screen Excellence Neo AT screen ) . But dedicated Audio only HDMI out from video processor is a must for me . Again will look more into it .
Just because you've been using the lumagen this way doesn't mean it's the only way things can be set up. Why can you not have your sources all connected to your Trinnov and the output from that processed through the ENVY or Lumagen to the 5000ES? The Trinnov is made to handle HDMI input of both audio and video, right? And the Trinnov is capable of outputting whatever HDMI input it receives right back out just like all the cheaper AVR/processors on the market, right?
I never said that was the only way , but connecting all video sources directly to video processor makes sense as you can tweak video settings per input . Moreover it takes out one additional component in video chain to cause hand shake issues .
Just to add to it , in the past when I tried adding Datasat LS10 in the video chain , I would have very hard time getting the image to sync on my Sony 5000, but going through Lumagen only have had no problem using the same 75’ optical HDMI cable .
And still trying to get some clear answer what exactly is the hardware difference between Envy and Envy pro besides upgradability ? And what visual benefit I will get with Envy pro as opposed to Envy in my set up ? And how many HDMI ins and outs are there in each ?
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post #959 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zaockle View Post
As someone who works for a custom integrator, I can say with confidence that we would not work with a company that does this (not my choice).


This is the unfornatue model: Have a dealer network and build in enough margin to make them happy. Raises the cost significantly, but keeps the burden of marketing and sales off you mostly. You could also sell direct, but you would upset your dealers if you sold for less than they sell/below your own MSRP.


or


No dealer net work, direct sales only. Lowers cost cause less margin needed. Now you have to also do more marketing and sales. You rely solely on the consumer to make the decision. What if the consumer doesn't know about your product? What if they just go with something else because their integrator told them to?


As enthusiasts, we obviously know about this product. But the Envy Pro is trying to get into some BIG NAME CLIENTS theaters, not everyones media room. They clearly understand they might be leaving the enthusiast behind, hence the non Pro model. It not having an upgrade path planned at this time is definitely concerning. I'm sure though Ric and madshi are listening and will figure out the best way forward.


As I've said many times in the past, thank you so much for all your hard work madshi. I've enjoyed using madVR for nearly a decade, so I wish you all the success you deserve. I am definitely interested in a proposed madVR Pro software, but one thing at a time. Make the Envy a success!
Tesla is a good example.

They went the direct to customer route.. boy, did this piss off the entire dealership lobby... it's still banned in many states in the US...

But, hey, what do you do? EVs at this stage is already very expensive.. you add more cost to it, and it'll never even start... they did the right thing by bringing the cost down for consumers and now it's taking off like a rocket...

But for something like the Envy, which is such a niche market, the dealership way may be the only way to make it...
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post #960 of 1550 Old 09-13-2019, 09:06 AM
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I too agree it makes sense to make Base model upgradable. It would be cool to have a product line like this:
a) Base model - $5K = box with medium-level GPU = great quality
b) Pro model - $10K = the same box with top-level GPU = excellent quality
c) Pro GPU for Base - $5K - upgrade your Base model later for Pro quality

This way, when I pay $5K for Base I have a clear upgrade path if I "outgrow" the product (I would upgrade to Pro for $5K). Or this way I can get Pro without paying it all at once, but by buying Base first and then upgrading. Or some might use Base as a trial for MadVR to to see if they like what they see and they decide if they want the to upgrade to the full Pro version. So having upgradable Base is really cool, as it reduces the risks for the user (would it be too slow for what I want? what if some new amazing stuff is released in the future and Base wouldn't be up to it? wouldn't it become outdated too fast?).

Maybe when the Pro 2 is released with a Pro 2 GPU, Base users can pay $5K for Pro 2 GPU and upgrade to Pro 2. In this case, buying Base would be a wise investement, as you can live with its great quality for years and then upgrade to the latest and greatest Pro 2 for the same $5K.

The thing is, we all want Pro, but have (hardly) money only for the Base, but we're afraid it's not the top and the cool stuff we read here (or that would happen in the future) would have unexpected limitations on what we would like it to do. Having Base with a clear upgrade path could alleviate these fears and lower this "barrier to entry". As someone has said above, if you think the Pro is too expensive and the Base is a dead-end, you might freeze and buy neither. But the goal is to make these boxes moving! ))

I know you thought through the product bundle & pricing, maybe that wouldn't work cost-wise or otherwise, jus sharing these thoughts with you, maybe you find it useful.

Last edited by ArtemF; 09-13-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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