madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 33 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #961 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:11 AM
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Personally I think one HDMI input is a serious design flaw and a dealbreaker for me.
My sources require lots of different settings in my setup, especially when it comes to HDR, SDR, 3DLUT, 3D and anamorphic settings. That alone makes more than 12 different inputs (4 hardware, 8 virtual) necessary.
Also it seems a bit of an unfinished product with the software to evolve only in the next years. When the hardware and build-cost gets cheaper over the years and there will be more versatility (with more inputs) this might be more interesting for me.
There is no way I would like to combine any of my video processor with my AVR, especially not behind it.
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post #962 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Personally I think one HDMI input is a serious design flaw and a dealbreaker for me.
My sources require lots of different settings in my setup, especially when it comes to HDR, SDR, 3DLUT, 3D and anamorphic settings. That alone makes more than 12 different inputs (4 hardware, 8 virtual) necessary.
Also it seems a bit of an unfinished product with the software to evolve only in the next years. When the hardware and build-cost gets cheaper over the years and there will be more versatility (with more inputs) this might be more interesting for me.
There is no way I would like to combine any of my video processor with my AVR, especially not behind it.
So there is only one HDMI in and one out ??
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post #963 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
First of great to see the ENVY getting ready to be launched.


For myself the pro version will be out of range and even the decision for the standard version is tough.
Since I have a HTPC running and I am happy with it, the key benefit would be to have other sources especcially TV and streaming services like Netflix also optimized.
Looking at an invest of 5k I am pretty close to an upgrade of my 7900 JVC which would improve the experience even more then a switch from HTPC to ENVY.
Bottom line is I will wait and see and enjoy what I have atm and who knows the prices might drop after some time or getting a used ENVY at some point. But most likely if it keeps as is that the standard version is not supporting hardware updates not even that would be an option since I could easily upgrade my HTPC to newest funky technologies and I don't want to invest 5k and be stuck.

It's great to hear free madvr for HTPC will be still further worked on and I am happy to get a payed version with extra features once it comes out (for a hopefully reasonable price )
Some ideas for the payed version:
- easy setup/finetuning interface (without the need to copy JAVs and other settings to get the best result )
- not sure if thats possible but something like a ipad app connection controlling madvr on my HTPC so I can change settings on the fly without a madvr overlay or use of a second monitor. Not sure if that would be possible already with remote desktop but most likely not since windows would have to control the remote stream and leave the video output untouched.
- some funky new AI whatever technology to improve the result even further

NoTechi

I concur.

I would spend the cost for the Envy to upgrade to a higher tier projector before buying it, especially since I already use madVR...

I would definitely be interested in a paid version of madVR that provides better performance and/or features. Personally I feel that if the goal is to profitable, then paid software is where it's at versus the vast issues associated with a hardware release/marketing/sales/etc.

I feel that the hardware aspect of Envy will have limited long-term value in the market as more pj companies begin to implement better software platforms (JVC's recent firmware announcement with upgraded dtm for instance).

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post #964 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Personally I think one HDMI input is a serious design flaw and a dealbreaker for me.
My sources require lots of different settings in my setup, especially when it comes to HDR, SDR, 3DLUT, 3D and anamorphic settings. That alone makes more than 12 different inputs (4 hardware, 8 virtual) necessary.
Also it seems a bit of an unfinished product with the software to evolve only in the next years. When the hardware and build-cost gets cheaper over the years and there will be more versatility (with more inputs) this might be more interesting for me.
There is no way I would like to combine any of my video processor with my AVR, especially not behind it.

I think it´s a wise decision of the Envy team to focus on the strength of their technology and not try to replace devices like a Lumagen in the first step.
Engeneering a HDMI switcher/matrix is a complex thing and Lumagen and other competitors have a long experience in that.
Regardless how many inputs and outputs you add, there will always be complaints about to few.
As the Envy is designed now, it needs to have a switching input device if you want to process more than just one source.
This can be an AVR, prepo or a video matrix.
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post #965 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:31 AM
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Every time I want to send this comment out, there's a new comment to reply to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
You know i´m a strong supporter of the Envy. I´m challenging technical and business topics because i am. You should take the first feedback here in the forum and from the booth to rethink a few decisions. If, after that, you´re still confident with your line-up, great.
That makes perfect sense, we will do that, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
MadVR ( HTPC ) combined with my Z1/RS4500 is for me the "ultimate combination for front projection....so a HUGE "THANKYOU" for the privellage of being able to use the MadVR software ....... i really do hope the Envy is a huge success for you..
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
My suspicion is that Envy is lacking the lobby by the opinion leaders in the industry to support it.
This might have been a problem if we were a total newcomer nobody knew. But fortunately, that's not the case. I trust in that most people in the industry are ultimately most interested in getting the best quality they can (for themselves and for their users/customers). As such, I hope they'll give us a fair chance.

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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I don't think fairness comes into it, I am just commenting on what makes an appealing product. A GPU based product that is not upgradable is not one that is appealing to me (unless it is much cheaper).
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
as far as i can see it is part of the normal bitstream so every decoder should be able to handle that.
https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/lossless.html
i guess it is far more simple to ask someone that knows that.
Yeah, when I get to implementing that idea, I'll ask some HEVC experts about it, just to be safe that I choose the best possible encoding parameters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
the best use of Envy is in high end 4K projector set ups with light control and large screen (12 feet and above) with Nuetral Gain.
Agreed, of course. We'll do better for the next show(s). We actually were planning to also have an Envy in some front projection rooms at CEDIA. There was interest there. But we simply couldn't manage in time to get more than one Envy ready for the show. So we had to decide whether to put the one Envy in our booth, or whether to put it into a projection room and then leave our booth "empty". Tough decision. But considering that we just officially introduced our first product, we felt it was important to have the actual product at our booth. And from what Ric tells me, the decision wasn't wrong. At least the booth is crowded and feedback is positive.

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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
DTM is a subtle but a huge impact - the first time I watched DV in a Dolby Atmos Cinema my jaw dropped and that is what I am expecting from the Envy once it is showcased in the environment it deserves.
Well, I really hope we will meet your expectation!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
The product that give more commission to dealers is the one that will win... generally speaking. That is prob one of the reason why the Envy is priced so high.
What I can say is that we won't sell the Envy by "bribing" dealers with extra high commissions. We actually try to keep the commission as low as possible to be able to also keep the price as low as possible. But dealers have to make their living, too, and we absolutely need them, so obviously, we have to factor their margin into our prices. Of course I don't know the commission other manufacturers give their dealers, but I wouldn't expect there to be big differences.

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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
A lot of super rich people will just go to a dealer and say, build me the best home cinema... and then whatever the dealer proposes will be IT... the 'buyer' is 9 out of 10 times not one who's lurking on forums like this...
That is true, I think. Which means we cannot sell direct, but we have to go through dealers. Otherwise we would lose a big part of potential sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Your device is selling into a very small market, and so needs to be a veritable Swiss army knife, that meets the needs of all users however obscure their needs might seem at the outset. Flexibility is key with this type of device, and the more value added functionality you add, the great scope of customers it is likely to appeal to.
That is perfectly true. However, we also got the feedback from multiple sources that it's important that our device is easy to use and easy to setup. Which is a property which is in some ways fighting with flexibility. So we need to hit the sweet spot between being as easy to use as possible, but also being as flexible as necessary. That's not an easy mark to hit. Which is why I've been hard on you to explain your needs, so I could fully understand them. I'm double checking every requirement and try to implement every needed feature and flexibility in the best way I can think of, while keeping ease of use in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I think you need to let go of this AVR idea - I keep seeing it mentioned (unless you're using it in some generic sense). Your Pro Cinema model at $10k is going to be used predominantly in the realm of high end installs with $100k+ equipment lists where AVR's will be very rarely specified. More likely you'll find high end pre-pros and power amp combos. Where those pre-pro's have been installed for some time, as I've mentioned previously, you'll find many will still have legacy HDMI 1.4 input boards (think old Datasat RS20i's, Theta Casablanca's, older Trinnov units, ADA units etc) which can't pass HDCP 2.2.

So the interface from your Cinema Pro is likely to be matrix HDMI switches and distribution systems and the like, so you should really focus on what the output from those devices deliver.
Good point. I might be thinking too much about my own setup. In any case, whether the device which does the HDMI switching is an AVR or a dedicated matrix switch, the underlying idea is the same: Since we can't technically provide more than one HDMI input at this time, there needs to be some other device that performs the HDMI switching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Auto-switching would be good, but the majority of those high end systems likely have Cestron/Control4/Savant etc style control systems also, so as long as the Cinema Pro allows selection of presets via IP or RS232 control using the protocols those systems require, you should be fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
I can't impress enough - how important Integration with Cestron etc is for such a device. Users don't just have time to doodle with the control and things once they are ready to watch a movie - that is why K Escape is so popular.
We will absolutely have support for IP control. I've talked to a Cestron installer a while ago and he told me that Cestron is very flexible. So basically we just have to provide some sort of IP communication and the Cestron should be able to pick it up. So I believe this should be easy as cake for us to implement. It's not done yet, but as I said earlier, our platform is very easy to develop, so it shouldn't take me long. And I plan to make every single feature available via IP control. If anything is missing, just let me know and I'll add it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
Since I have a HTPC running and I am happy with it, the key benefit would be to have other sources especcially TV and streaming services like Netflix also optimized.
Looking at an invest of 5k I am pretty close to an upgrade of my 7900 JVC which would improve the experience even more then a switch from HTPC to ENVY.
Bottom line is I will wait and see and enjoy what I have atm and who knows the prices might drop after some time or getting a used ENVY at some point. But most likely if it keeps as is that the standard version is not supporting hardware updates not even that would be an option since I could easily upgrade my HTPC to newest funky technologies and I don't want to invest 5k and be stuck.

It's great to hear free madvr for HTPC will be still further worked on and I am happy to get a payed version with extra features once it comes out (for a hopefully reasonable price )
Some ideas for the payed version:
- easy setup/finetuning interface (without the need to copy JAVs and other settings to get the best result )
- not sure if thats possible but something like a ipad app connection controlling madvr on my HTPC so I can change settings on the fly without a madvr overlay or use of a second monitor. Not sure if that would be possible already with remote desktop but most likely not since windows would have to control the remote stream and leave the video output untouched.
- some funky new AI whatever technology to improve the result even further
Yes, to be honest, if I were in your shoes, I would probably also keep the HTPC and upgrade the projector. Of course it depends a bit on how much streaming you use.

The HTPC version will stay and be worked on, but to be honest, atm focus is on the Envy. But funky new AI algorithms are already in development...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Well in Germany we did such a comparison between madVR htpc and Lumagen pro with a jvc N5 a couple months ago for the dynamic tone mapping switching back and forth between the 2 solutions.

The result was that madVR was clearly superior at the time being in its capacity to adapt to both very bright and very dark scenes (the MEG, Blade Runner 2049.. ).
In comparison to madVR, some scene in the MEG were clearly blown out. Also dark scenes were brighter in madVR.

When we tried to change that, to expand the range of the Lumagen, we either made dark scene darker or bright scene even more blown out.

MadVR win over LUMAGEN was so clear at that time that we did not have to look for "details" differentiating the 2 solutions like "scene detection ", smooth and unvisible change within a scene etc...

Since then a couple update have been released by Lumagen. So the comparison will have to be performed again.

However the Lumagen owner (who was quite happy before the shot out) now knows what to look for and from what he had reported, this has not been really improved/solved.

Furthermore, madVR allows you to define your "Real Nits" so that when your frame peak gets lower, you can watch the movie 1:1 with no compression whatsoever and with the intended brightness coded on the uhd bluray. Lumagen does NOT have such a control for that which can result in either having a picture brighter that coded on the uhd bluray, or just throw brightness away.

Also, while Lumagen tone mapping, it is scene by scene (by design). MadVR combines both scene by scene and frame by frame without any adaptation visible. Here again madVR is more flexible. If the first frame of a scene has a peak of 500nits, but it increases slowly to 1000 nits, madVR will adapt as fast as possible without showing any adaptation artefacts. I can only imagine that if Lumagen is using a fixed tone mapping for a scene, it may end up clipping anything above the first detected 500nits...

MadVR has also dynamic clipping algorithm to clip on purpose very tiny bit of the picture to make the picture more dynamic. It has also the highlight recovery features which works very well for skys. I do not know of anything similar in Lumagen camp.

I also love the neural network NGU 4k upscaling of madVR for 1080p content. And there is likely so much more possible with AI training for other algo.

In any case, I was not impressed with what I had seen with the Lumagen.
A new shootout will be needed when the Envy is out to see how they compare. And of course in a dark room with a projector on a large screen where both hdr dynamic tone mapping and 4k upscaling algo of the 2 competiting product can show their strengths. ;-)

For 5000euros for both, the Envy seems to have more goodies than Lumagen concerning picture quality.
Thank you for your support!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Ok excellent. I really want to see this product be very successful. MadVR is an outstanding product
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
The other thing to remember about Envy, too, is that while there is obviously the hardware component side of this equation, those of us using madvr on an HTPC have seen with our own eyes just how far madshi has been able to take the software side of this over the years. Development on the Envy is still fairly new, with features still being "finalized". If you know anything about madvr, you know that "finalized" is not a word in madshi's vocabulary. I don't know how software updates will be pushed to the Envy [...]
Software updates will be available through the Envy menu (provided the Envy has access to the internet). It will be sort of an instant switch, no reboot needed. You will probably also be able to switch back to older software versions the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
One thing to maybe consider if you need this to be a feature. You could perhaps have a way to capture a few frames of video to trigger a profile. For example, there could be an "add a profile", then you fire up your bluray player and on the logo screen when it boots, you press a button on ENVY remote then it captures a still frame of that. When ENVY senses this still frame, it auto switches profile. It could be an oppo screen main menu also (but there may be things there that change such as the time). Anyways, you get the idea if its useful. Of course the reliability of this type of switching relies on user presenting this screen every time switching.
It's a good idea, but unfortunately, HDCP doesn't allow capture of any frames, not even if it's for a clearly "positive" purpose like this. So we can't do this, unless the source sends the first frames without HDCP active. But in my experience, most players switch on HDCP right away, even if the content being played wouldn't even require it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
In that case, madVR Labs could also ship direct to end customers for a discount since most folks that would buy that version wouldn't be the ones you describe above where dealers just come install their system.
We can't go into direct competition with our dealers by selling direct. That wouldn't be fair, and they wouldn't accept it (for a good reason). Of course we could sell direct world wide and skip dealers altogether, that would allow us to cut prices quite a bit. But we believe despite the lower prices we would sell significantly fewer units overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I do have the Stacey Spears UHD disc and (R. Masciola's), though I don't have any DV displays
The reason I asked is that Stacey's disc actually has a Dolby Vision encoding on it. So you can compare how Dolby Vision tone mapping (to 100nits BT.709) looks like compared to what your Lumagen DTM does. If you have a chance, please give it a try and compare, and let me know which you prefer. I bet you'll like the Lumagen DTM results more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Do you have such a scene that exists in DV in mind - have you tried the comparison? Would be interesting to see.
There's a scene in Batman vs Superman at the end where Wonder woman crosses her arms to reflect an explosion. It's extremely bright, and then quickly goes very dark. If you don't adjust you lose a *ton* of image detail in the dark frames. But I've no idea if this movie is available with DV or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Whether or not a DV display mapper targetting projection level nits, doing whatever it does internally, would give a better or worse result than best dynamic tone mappers - I don't know, no-one who's talking has seen one!
Shouldn't the hard coded DV encoding from Stacey's disc (see above) tell us that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
From my own part I'm very succeptible to noticing odd luma changes in scenes ant they pull me right out of a movie (I've never been able to get used to the JVC DI) and the DTM algos are just getting to the point fairly recently for me where this doesn't happen often enough to bother me, but I'd like the option to decide which I like more.
Hmmmm... Currently the "brightness adaptation speed" can be adjusted in the madVR settings. I planned to remove that at some point. But reading your comment, I guess I should make it a preference option between fast and slow speeds, so people who're sensitive to fast luma changes can slow adaptation speed down, on the cost of losing some dynamic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
However, one other interesting point is that I understand for much DV content, the REC709 grade comes out of the Dolby Vision process (not sure how much user intervention there is though)... So they've probably got some pretty good smarts for getting to SDR levels of nits from DV HDR masters.
Do they, though? See above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
HDfury devices report the active source player name if the player reports it. My Vertex reports my Oppo 203 source device as "OPPO UDP-203".

Oppo 203 -> Denon X4200W > HDfury Vertex > LG B7A OLED Display

The Denon is passing the information along to the Vertex in an SPD Infoframe (Source Product Description). For Oppo UDP-203:

83:01:19:70:4f:50:50:4f:00:00:00:00:55:44:50:2d:32:30:33:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:0a
__________OPPO_______________UDP-203


If I power off the Oppo, the Vertex then reports the source device as "DENON AVR-X4200W".
That sounds pretty good - thanks!

I've been told that only some devices output this information, though. Might need some testing to see which percentage of sources devices output SPD InfoFrames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaockle View Post
As someone who works for a custom integrator, I can say with confidence that we would not work with a company that does this (not my choice).
Exactly. And it's only fair. How are dealers/custom integrators supposed to earn money if we undercut them by selling direct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaockle View Post
As I've said many times in the past, thank you so much for all your hard work madshi. I've enjoyed using madVR for nearly a decade, so I wish you all the success you deserve. I am definitely interested in a proposed madVR Pro software, but one thing at a time. Make the Envy a success!
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
And still trying to get some clear answer what exactly is the hardware difference between Envy and Envy pro besides upgradability ? And what visual benefit I will get with Envy pro as opposed to Envy in my set up ? And how many HDMI ins and outs are there in each ?
HDMI ins/outs are the same. We're still working out how to differentiate Pro Cinema and base model. If you have a bit patience, more information about that will come soon(ish), as we collect the feedback we receive and "fine tune" our plans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtemF View Post
I too agree it makes sense to make Base model upgradable. It would be cool to have a product line like this:
a) Base model - $5K = box with medium-level GPU = great quality
b) Pro model - $10K = the same box with top-level GPU = excellent quality
c) Pro GPU for Base - $5K - upgrade your Base model later for Pro quality

This way, when I pay $5K for Base I have a clear upgrade path if I "outgrow" the product (I would upgrade to Pro for $5K). Or this way I can get Pro without paying it all at once, but by buying Base first and then upgrading. Or some might use Base as a trial for MadVR to to see if they like what they see and they decide if they want the to upgrade to the full Pro version. So having upgradable Base is really cool, as it reduces the risks for the user (would it be too slow for what I want? what if some new amazing stuff is released in the future and Base wouldn't be up to it? wouldn't it become outdated too fast?).

Maybe when the Pro 2 is released with a Pro 2 GPU, Base users can pay $5K for Pro 2 GPU and upgrade to Pro 2. In this case, buying Base would be a wise investement, as you can live with its great quality for years and then upgrade to the latest and greatest Pro 2 for the same $5K.

The thing is, we all want Pro, but have (hardly) money only for the Base, but we're afraid it's not the top and the cool stuff we read here (or that would happen in the future) would have unexpected limitations on what we would like it to do. Having Base with a clear upgrade path could alleviate these fears and lower this "barrier to entry". As someone has said above, if you think the Pro is too expensive and the Base is a dead-end, you might freeze and buy neither. But the goal is to make these boxes moving! ))

I know you thought through the product bundle & pricing, so just posting these thoughts, maybe you find it useful.
Thanks for your suggestions. The difference between Pro Cinema and base unit will be bigger than just the GPU. The Pro Cinema unit will have better hardware overall. If it were just the GPU, a price difference of $5k would not be really fair. I don't know if an upgrade from base model to Pro Cinema will be possible. I'll discuss this with Ric, maybe that could be a good idea. Or maybe not, I'm not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Personally I think one HDMI input is a serious design flaw and a dealbreaker for me.
My sources require lots of different settings in my setup, especially when it comes to HDR, SDR, 3DLUT, 3D and anamorphic settings.
Could you explain in detail how your settings differ, depending on your source? I'm really interested in understanding common reasons for such settings differences, to improve our product in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
So there is only one HDMI in and one out ??
Definitely only one HDMI input. In theory we could provide multiple outupts, but I'm not sure how useful that would be, with having only one input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
I would definitely be interested in a paid version of madVR that provides better performance and/or features. Personally I feel that if the goal is to profitable, then paid software is where it's at versus the vast issues associated with a hardware release/marketing/sales/etc.

I feel that the hardware aspect of Envy will have limited long-term value in the market as more pj companies begin to implement better software platforms (JVC's recent firmware announcement with upgraded dtm for instance).
It's so hard for us to estimate whether our hardware project will have more or less success than a paid pro version of the software. So we will simply try both approaches and see how it works out.

In regards to long-term value: We shall see. As long as we have dramatically more computational power, and put it to good use, it should be possible to achieve a quality improvement in processing. But only the future will tell how long that will last...
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post #966 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Personally I think one HDMI input is a serious design flaw and a dealbreaker for me.
My sources require lots of different settings in my setup, especially when it comes to HDR, SDR, 3DLUT, 3D and anamorphic settings. That alone makes more than 12 different inputs (4 hardware, 8 virtual) necessary.
Also it seems a bit of an unfinished product with the software to evolve only in the next years. When the hardware and build-cost gets cheaper over the years and there will be more versatility (with more inputs) this might be more interesting for me.
There is no way I would like to combine any of my video processor with my AVR, especially not behind it.

I think it´s a wise decision of the Envy team to focus on the strength of their technology and not try to replace devices like a Lumagen in the first step.
Engeneering a HDMI switcher/matrix is a complex thing and Lumagen and other competitors have a long experience in that.
Regardless how many inputs and outputs you add, there will always be complaints about to few.
As the Envy is designed now, it needs to have a switching input device if you want to process more than just one source.
This can be an AVR, prepo or a video matrix.
I seriously disagree . If for 10k I can’t have different video settings/ calibrations for different video sources and it can’t do HDMI switching that is a serious design flaw . I hope they fix it before the actual launch .
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post #967 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That is perfectly true. However, we also got the feedback from multiple sources that it's important that our device is easy to use and easy to setup. Which is a property which is in some ways fighting with flexibility. So we need to hit the sweet spot between being as easy to use as possible, but also being as flexible as necessary. That's not an easy mark to hit. Which is why I've been hard on you to explain your needs, so I could fully understand them. I'm double checking every requirement and try to implement every needed feature and flexibility in the best way I can think of, while keeping ease of use in mind.

Here's a suggestion.

Keep the main menu clutter free for ease of use. Most people who have expensive home theaters aren't technical anyways... They just want to enjoy their movies.

But then have an Advanced menu item which opens up the pandora box... this is where ppl who knows what they are doing can configure everything...
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post #968 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Every time I want to send this comment out, there's a new comment to reply to... [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
You know i´m a strong supporter of the Envy. I´m challenging technical and business topics because i am. You should take the first feedback here in the forum and from the booth to rethink a few decisions. If, after that, you´re still confident with your line-up, great.
That makes perfect sense, we will do that, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
MadVR ( HTPC ) combined with my Z1/RS4500 is for me the "ultimate combination for front projection....so a HUGE "THANKYOU" for the privellage of being able to use the MadVR software [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] ....... i really do hope the Envy is a huge success for you..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Thanks! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
My suspicion is that Envy is lacking the lobby by the opinion leaders in the industry to support it.
This might have been a problem if we were a total newcomer nobody knew. But fortunately, that's not the case. I trust in that most people in the industry are ultimately most interested in getting the best quality they can (for themselves and for their users/customers). As such, I hope they'll give us a fair chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I don't think fairness comes into it, I am just commenting on what makes an appealing product. A GPU based product that is not upgradable is not one that is appealing to me (unless it is much cheaper).
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
as far as i can see it is part of the normal bitstream so every decoder should be able to handle that.
https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/lossless.html
i guess it is far more simple to ask someone that knows that.
Yeah, when I get to implementing that idea, I'll ask some HEVC experts about it, just to be safe that I choose the best possible encoding parameters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
the best use of Envy is in high end 4K projector set ups with light control and large screen (12 feet and above) with Nuetral Gain.
Agreed, of course. We'll do better for the next show(s). We actually were planning to also have an Envy in some front projection rooms at CEDIA. There was interest there. But we simply couldn't manage in time to get more than one Envy ready for the show. So we had to decide whether to put the one Envy in our booth, or whether to put it into a projection room and then leave our booth "empty". Tough decision. But considering that we just officially introduced our first product, we felt it was important to have the actual product at our booth. And from what Ric tells me, the decision wasn't wrong. At least the booth is crowded and feedback is positive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
DTM is a subtle but a huge impact - the first time I watched DV in a Dolby Atmos Cinema my jaw dropped and that is what I am expecting from the Envy once it is showcased in the environment it deserves.
Well, I really hope we will meet your expectation!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
The product that give more commission to dealers is the one that will win... generally speaking. That is prob one of the reason why the Envy is priced so high.
What I can say is that we won't sell the Envy by "bribing" dealers with extra high commissions. We actually try to keep the commission as low as possible to be able to also keep the price as low as possible. But dealers have to make their living, too, and we absolutely need them, so obviously, we have to factor their margin into our prices. Of course I don't know the commission other manufacturers give their dealers, but I wouldn't expect there to be big differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
A lot of super rich people will just go to a dealer and say, build me the best home cinema... and then whatever the dealer proposes will be IT... the 'buyer' is 9 out of 10 times not one who's lurking on forums like this...
That is true, I think. Which means we cannot sell direct, but we have to go through dealers. Otherwise we would lose a big part of potential sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Your device is selling into a very small market, and so needs to be a veritable Swiss army knife, that meets the needs of all users however obscure their needs might seem at the outset. Flexibility is key with this type of device, and the more value added functionality you add, the great scope of customers it is likely to appeal to.
That is perfectly true. However, we also got the feedback from multiple sources that it's important that our device is easy to use and easy to setup. Which is a property which is in some ways fighting with flexibility. So we need to hit the sweet spot between being as easy to use as possible, but also being as flexible as necessary. That's not an easy mark to hit. Which is why I've been hard on you to explain your needs, so I could fully understand them. I'm double checking every requirement and try to implement every needed feature and flexibility in the best way I can think of, while keeping ease of use in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I think you need to let go of this AVR idea - I keep seeing it mentioned (unless you're using it in some generic sense). Your Pro Cinema model at $10k is going to be used predominantly in the realm of high end installs with $100k+ equipment lists where AVR's will be very rarely specified. More likely you'll find high end pre-pros and power amp combos. Where those pre-pro's have been installed for some time, as I've mentioned previously, you'll find many will still have legacy HDMI 1.4 input boards (think old Datasat RS20i's, Theta Casablanca's, older Trinnov units, ADA units etc) which can't pass HDCP 2.2.

So the interface from your Cinema Pro is likely to be matrix HDMI switches and distribution systems and the like, so you should really focus on what the output from those devices deliver.
Good point. I might be thinking too much about my own setup. In any case, whether the device which does the HDMI switching is an AVR or a dedicated matrix switch, the underlying idea is the same: Since we can't technically provide more than one HDMI input at this time, there needs to be some other device that performs the HDMI switching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Auto-switching would be good, but the majority of those high end systems likely have Cestron/Control4/Savant etc style control systems also, so as long as the Cinema Pro allows selection of presets via IP or RS232 control using the protocols those systems require, you should be fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
I can't impress enough - how important Integration with Cestron etc is for such a device. Users don't just have time to doodle with the control and things once they are ready to watch a movie - that is why K Escape is so popular.
We will absolutely have support for IP control. I've talked to a Cestron installer a while ago and he told me that Cestron is very flexible. So basically we just have to provide some sort of IP communication and the Cestron should be able to pick it up. So I believe this should be easy as cake for us to implement. It's not done yet, but as I said earlier, our platform is very easy to develop, so it shouldn't take me long. And I plan to make every single feature available via IP control. If anything is missing, just let me know and I'll add it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
Since I have a HTPC running and I am happy with it, the key benefit would be to have other sources especcially TV and streaming services like Netflix also optimized.
Looking at an invest of 5k I am pretty close to an upgrade of my 7900 JVC which would improve the experience even more then a switch from HTPC to ENVY.
Bottom line is I will wait and see and enjoy what I have atm and who knows the prices might drop after some time or getting a used ENVY at some point. But most likely if it keeps as is that the standard version is not supporting hardware updates not even that would be an option since I could easily upgrade my HTPC to newest funky technologies and I don't want to invest 5k and be stuck.

It's great to hear free madvr for HTPC will be still further worked on and I am happy to get a payed version with extra features once it comes out (for a hopefully reasonable price [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG])
Some ideas for the payed version:
- easy setup/finetuning interface (without the need to copy JAVs and other settings to get the best result [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG])
- not sure if thats possible but something like a ipad app connection controlling madvr on my HTPC so I can change settings on the fly without a madvr overlay or use of a second monitor. Not sure if that would be possible already with remote desktop but most likely not since windows would have to control the remote stream and leave the video output untouched.
- some funky new AI whatever technology to improve the result even further [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Yes, to be honest, if I were in your shoes, I would probably also keep the HTPC and upgrade the projector. Of course it depends a bit on how much streaming you use.

The HTPC version will stay and be worked on, but to be honest, atm focus is on the Envy. But funky new AI algorithms are already in development... [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Well in Germany we did such a comparison between madVR htpc and Lumagen pro with a jvc N5 a couple months ago for the dynamic tone mapping switching back and forth between the 2 solutions.

The result was that madVR was clearly superior at the time being in its capacity to adapt to both very bright and very dark scenes (the MEG, Blade Runner 2049.. ).
In comparison to madVR, some scene in the MEG were clearly blown out. Also dark scenes were brighter in madVR.

When we tried to change that, to expand the range of the Lumagen, we either made dark scene darker or bright scene even more blown out.

MadVR win over LUMAGEN was so clear at that time that we did not have to look for "details" differentiating the 2 solutions like "scene detection ", smooth and unvisible change within a scene etc...

Since then a couple update have been released by Lumagen. So the comparison will have to be performed again.

However the Lumagen owner (who was quite happy before the shot out) now knows what to look for and from what he had reported, this has not been really improved/solved.

Furthermore, madVR allows you to define your "Real Nits" so that when your frame peak gets lower, you can watch the movie 1:1 with no compression whatsoever and with the intended brightness coded on the uhd bluray. Lumagen does NOT have such a control for that which can result in either having a picture brighter that coded on the uhd bluray, or just throw brightness away.

Also, while Lumagen tone mapping, it is scene by scene (by design). MadVR combines both scene by scene and frame by frame without any adaptation visible. Here again madVR is more flexible. If the first frame of a scene has a peak of 500nits, but it increases slowly to 1000 nits, madVR will adapt as fast as possible without showing any adaptation artefacts. I can only imagine that if Lumagen is using a fixed tone mapping for a scene, it may end up clipping anything above the first detected 500nits...

MadVR has also dynamic clipping algorithm to clip on purpose very tiny bit of the picture to make the picture more dynamic. It has also the highlight recovery features which works very well for skys. I do not know of anything similar in Lumagen camp.

I also love the neural network NGU 4k upscaling of madVR for 1080p content. And there is likely so much more possible with AI training for other algo.

In any case, I was not impressed with what I had seen with the Lumagen.
A new shootout will be needed when the Envy is out to see how they compare. And of course in a dark room with a projector on a large screen where both hdr dynamic tone mapping and 4k upscaling algo of the 2 competiting product can show their strengths. 😉

For 5000euros for both, the Envy seems to have more goodies than Lumagen concerning picture quality.
Thank you for your support!! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Ok excellent. I really want to see this product be very successful. MadVR is an outstanding product
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
The other thing to remember about Envy, too, is that while there is obviously the hardware component side of this equation, those of us using madvr on an HTPC have seen with our own eyes just how far madshi has been able to take the software side of this over the years. Development on the Envy is still fairly new, with features still being "finalized". If you know anything about madvr, you know that "finalized" is not a word in madshi's vocabulary. I don't know how software updates will be pushed to the Envy [...]
Software updates will be available through the Envy menu (provided the Envy has access to the internet). It will be sort of an instant switch, no reboot needed. You will probably also be able to switch back to older software versions the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
One thing to maybe consider if you need this to be a feature. You could perhaps have a way to capture a few frames of video to trigger a profile. For example, there could be an "add a profile", then you fire up your bluray player and on the logo screen when it boots, you press a button on ENVY remote then it captures a still frame of that. When ENVY senses this still frame, it auto switches profile. It could be an oppo screen main menu also (but there may be things there that change such as the time). Anyways, you get the idea if its useful. Of course the reliability of this type of switching relies on user presenting this screen every time switching.
It's a good idea, but unfortunately, HDCP doesn't allow capture of any frames, not even if it's for a clearly "positive" purpose like this. So we can't do this, unless the source sends the first frames without HDCP active. But in my experience, most players switch on HDCP right away, even if the content being played wouldn't even require it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
In that case, madVR Labs could also ship direct to end customers for a discount since most folks that would buy that version wouldn't be the ones you describe above where dealers just come install their system.
We can't go into direct competition with our dealers by selling direct. That wouldn't be fair, and they wouldn't accept it (for a good reason). Of course we could sell direct world wide and skip dealers altogether, that would allow us to cut prices quite a bit. But we believe despite the lower prices we would sell significantly fewer units overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I do have the Stacey Spears UHD disc and (R. Masciola's), though I don't have any DV displays
The reason I asked is that Stacey's disc actually has a Dolby Vision encoding on it. So you can compare how Dolby Vision tone mapping (to 100nits BT.709) looks like compared to what your Lumagen DTM does. If you have a chance, please give it a try and compare, and let me know which you prefer. I bet you'll like the Lumagen DTM results more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Do you have such a scene that exists in DV in mind - have you tried the comparison? Would be interesting to see.
There's a scene in Batman vs Superman at the end where Wonder woman crosses her arms to reflect an explosion. It's extremely bright, and then quickly goes very dark. If you don't adjust you lose a *ton* of image detail in the dark frames. But I've no idea if this movie is available with DV or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Whether or not a DV display mapper targetting projection level nits, doing whatever it does internally, would give a better or worse result than best dynamic tone mappers - I don't know, no-one who's talking has seen one! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Shouldn't the hard coded DV encoding from Stacey's disc (see above) tell us that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
From my own part I'm very succeptible to noticing odd luma changes in scenes ant they pull me right out of a movie (I've never been able to get used to the JVC DI) and the DTM algos are just getting to the point fairly recently for me where this doesn't happen often enough to bother me, but I'd like the option to decide which I like more.
Hmmmm... Currently the "brightness adaptation speed" can be adjusted in the madVR settings. I planned to remove that at some point. But reading your comment, I guess I should make it a preference option between fast and slow speeds, so people who're sensitive to fast luma changes can slow adaptation speed down, on the cost of losing some dynamic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
However, one other interesting point is that I understand for much DV content, the REC709 grade comes out of the Dolby Vision process (not sure how much user intervention there is though)... So they've probably got some pretty good smarts for getting to SDR levels of nits from DV HDR masters.
Do they, though? See above... [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
HDfury devices report the active source player name if the player reports it. My Vertex reports my Oppo 203 source device as "OPPO UDP-203".

Oppo 203 -> Denon X4200W > HDfury Vertex > LG B7A OLED Display

The Denon is passing the information along to the Vertex in an SPD Infoframe (Source Product Description). For Oppo UDP-203:

83:01:19:70:4f:50:50:4f:00:00:00:00:55:44:50:2d:32:30:33:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:0a
__________OPPO_______________UDP-203


If I power off the Oppo, the Vertex then reports the source device as "DENON AVR-X4200W".
That sounds pretty good - thanks!

I've been told that only some devices output this information, though. Might need some testing to see which percentage of sources devices output SPD InfoFrames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaockle View Post
As someone who works for a custom integrator, I can say with confidence that we would not work with a company that does this (not my choice).
Exactly. And it's only fair. How are dealers/custom integrators supposed to earn money if we undercut them by selling direct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaockle View Post
As I've said many times in the past, thank you so much for all your hard work madshi. I've enjoyed using madVR for nearly a decade, so I wish you all the success you deserve. I am definitely interested in a proposed madVR Pro software, but one thing at a time. Make the Envy a success!
Thank you! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
And still trying to get some clear answer what exactly is the hardware difference between Envy and Envy pro besides upgradability ? And what visual benefit I will get with Envy pro as opposed to Envy in my set up ? And how many HDMI ins and outs are there in each ?
HDMI ins/outs are the same. We're still working out how to differentiate Pro Cinema and base model. If you have a bit patience, more information about that will come soon(ish), as we collect the feedback we receive and "fine tune" our plans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtemF View Post
I too agree it makes sense to make Base model upgradable. It would be cool to have a product line like this:
a) Base model - $5K = box with medium-level GPU = great quality
b) Pro model - $10K = the same box with top-level GPU = excellent quality
c) Pro GPU for Base - $5K - upgrade your Base model later for Pro quality

This way, when I pay $5K for Base I have a clear upgrade path if I "outgrow" the product (I would upgrade to Pro for $5K). Or this way I can get Pro without paying it all at once, but by buying Base first and then upgrading. Or some might use Base as a trial for MadVR to to see if they like what they see and they decide if they want the to upgrade to the full Pro version. So having upgradable Base is really cool, as it reduces the risks for the user (would it be too slow for what I want? what if some new amazing stuff is released in the future and Base wouldn't be up to it? wouldn't it become outdated too fast?).

Maybe when the Pro 2 is released with a Pro 2 GPU, Base users can pay $5K for Pro 2 GPU and upgrade to Pro 2. In this case, buying Base would be a wise investement, as you can live with its great quality for years and then upgrade to the latest and greatest Pro 2 for the same $5K.

The thing is, we all want Pro, but have (hardly) money only for the Base, but we're afraid it's not the top and the cool stuff we read here (or that would happen in the future) would have unexpected limitations on what we would like it to do. Having Base with a clear upgrade path could alleviate these fears and lower this "barrier to entry". As someone has said above, if you think the Pro is too expensive and the Base is a dead-end, you might freeze and buy neither. But the goal is to make these boxes moving! ))

I know you thought through the product bundle & pricing, so just posting these thoughts, maybe you find it useful.
Thanks for your suggestions. The difference between Pro Cinema and base unit will be bigger than just the GPU. The Pro Cinema unit will have better hardware overall. If it were just the GPU, a price difference of $5k would not be really fair. I don't know if an upgrade from base model to Pro Cinema will be possible. I'll discuss this with Ric, maybe that could be a good idea. Or maybe not, I'm not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Personally I think one HDMI input is a serious design flaw and a dealbreaker for me.
My sources require lots of different settings in my setup, especially when it comes to HDR, SDR, 3DLUT, 3D and anamorphic settings.
Could you explain in detail how your settings differ, depending on your source? I'm really interested in understanding common reasons for such settings differences, to improve our product in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
So there is only one HDMI in and one out ??
Definitely only one HDMI input. In theory we could provide multiple outupts, but I'm not sure how useful that would be, with having only one input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
I would definitely be interested in a paid version of madVR that provides better performance and/or features. Personally I feel that if the goal is to profitable, then paid software is where it's at versus the vast issues associated with a hardware release/marketing/sales/etc.

I feel that the hardware aspect of Envy will have limited long-term value in the market as more pj companies begin to implement better software platforms (JVC's recent firmware announcement with upgraded dtm for instance).
It's so hard for us to estimate whether our hardware project will have more or less success than a paid pro version of the software. So we will simply try both approaches and see how it works out.

In regards to long-term value: We shall see. As long as we have dramatically more computational power, and put it to good use, it should be possible to achieve a quality improvement in processing. But only the future will tell how long that will last...

Appreciate you being involved here in the conversation. Here are my thoughts :
- getting a component ( my audio processor ) out of video chain has helped me a lot at least in my setup
- having multiple HDMI inputs allows different settings for different video sources . Otherwise you are wasting some of the prowess of your computational advantage .
- moreover for 10k not to have built in high quality video switching is a deal breaker for most as a few hundred or $ 1500 Marantz AV processor does 4K switching flawlessly
- moreover it seems a little ironic that you will be claiming Envy pro as the best in the world video processor , but want an audio processor company to be expert in 4K 18G video switching ?
- regarding multiple outputs - my game room and theater are next to each other and My equipment room is between them. I have Sony 5000es in theater and Sony OLED in game room . So I can run HDMI cables to both and third HDMI dedicated audio out goes to Trinnov now . So for that kind of money that flexibility is important on setups like mine where automation and wiring has already been done for such set up .

I really wish you success and providing these comments as constructive inputs only

Regards
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post #969 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The difference between Pro Cinema and base unit will be bigger than just the GPU. The Pro Cinema unit will have better hardware overall. If it were just the GPU, a price difference of $5k would not be really fair. I don't know if an upgrade from base model to Pro Cinema will be possible.
Of course, you can read "Pro GPU for Base" as "Pro module for Base", as it can have other differentiating parts, besides GPU.
I can't know if that's possible cost-wise or parts-wise or feasible at all, still thank you for considering this idea!
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post #970 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Software updates will be available through the Envy menu (provided the Envy has access to the internet). It will be sort of an instant switch, no reboot needed. You will probably also be able to switch back to older software versions the same way.

Oh that's very nice. Just gonna throw this out there that a madvr pro feature for automatic updates from the preferences menu would be super awesome. hehe
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post #971 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Here's a suggestion.

Keep the main menu clutter free for ease of use. Most people who have expensive home theaters aren't technical anyways... They just want to enjoy their movies.

But then have an Advanced menu item which opens up the pandora box... this is where ppl who knows what they are doing can configure everything...

This is a good suggestion anyway because the majority of people buying these are going to be people who have installers setting up their equipment. Things like calibration, 3dlut, etc. Having a "service menu" to tweak things based on the equipment/video sources/etc would definitely be a value add.
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I can see having different settings for different input formats, but why do people need different settings for different input devices? It's not like you get that now with your projector. Think of the Envy as an extension of your projector's capabilities rather than an extension of your AVR/switcher capabilities.
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Here's a suggestion.

Keep the main menu clutter free for ease of use. Most people who have expensive home theaters aren't technical anyways... They just want to enjoy their movies.

But then have an Advanced menu item which opens up the pandora box... this is where ppl who knows what they are doing can configure everything...
This sounds ideal. So far ease of use/setup seems to be stressed more than flexibility. I think the goal should be to implement default settings that work well in the majority of setups. But then give the user the option of tweaking as many parameters as possible.

For example, how aggressively the tone mapping changes between bright and dark scenes. I'd assume a more aggressive setting could result in a more dynamic image, but come with more risk of transition artifacts. Everyone sees/experiences things like this differently so personal preference should be part of the equation.
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Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
I can see having different settings for different input formats, but why do people need different settings for different input devices? It's not like you get that now with your projector. Think of the Envy as an extension of your projector's capabilities rather than an extension of your AVR/switcher capabilities.
Because same settings don’t give me consistent quality of picture if I am watching Kscape 4K , or disc , or Dish receiver etc etc . So also my point is if few hundred dollar AVR can do that video switching , why shouldn’t a 10k video processor , which is its forte ??
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
Appreciate you being involved here in the conversation. Here are my thoughts :
- getting a component ( my audio processor ) out of video chain has helped me a lot at least in my setup
- having multiple HDMI inputs allows different settings for different video sources . Otherwise you are wasting some of the prowess of your computational advantage .
- moreover for 10k not to have built in high quality video switching is a deal breaker for most as a few hundred or $ 1500 Marantz AV processor does 4K switching flawlessly
- moreover it seems a little ironic that you will be claiming Envy pro as the best in the world video processor , but want an audio processor company to be expert in 4K 18G video switching ?
- regarding multiple outputs - my game room and theater are next to each other and My equipment room is between them. I have Sony 5000es in theater and Sony OLED in game room . So I can run HDMI cables to both and third HDMI dedicated audio out goes to Trinnov now . So for that kind of money that flexibility is important on setups like mine where automation and wiring has already been done for such set up .

I really wish you success and providing these comments as constructive inputs only

Regards
Do you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #976 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 11:10 AM
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Appreciate you being involved here in the conversation. Here are my thoughts :
- getting a component ( my audio processor ) out of video chain has helped me a lot at least in my setup
- having multiple HDMI inputs allows different settings for different video sources . Otherwise you are wasting some of the prowess of your computational advantage .
- moreover for 10k not to have built in high quality video switching is a deal breaker for most as a few hundred or $ 1500 Marantz AV processor does 4K switching flawlessly
- moreover it seems a little ironic that you will be claiming Envy pro as the best in the world video processor , but want an audio processor company to be expert in 4K 18G video switching ?
- regarding multiple outputs - my game room and theater are next to each other and My equipment room is between them. I have Sony 5000es in theater and Sony OLED in game room . So I can run HDMI cables to both and third HDMI dedicated audio out goes to Trinnov now . So for that kind of money that flexibility is important on setups like mine where automation and wiring has already been done for such set up .

I really wish you success and providing these comments as constructive inputs only

Regards
Do you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?

Posting from my iPhone so don’t know how to separate out the particular quote here
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post #977 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 11:32 AM
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The reason I asked is that Stacey's disc actually has a Dolby Vision encoding on it. So you can compare how Dolby Vision tone mapping (to 100nits BT.709) looks like compared to what your Lumagen DTM does. If you have a chance, please give it a try and compare, and let me know which you prefer. I bet you'll like the Lumagen DTM results more!

There's a scene in Batman vs Superman at the end where Wonder woman crosses her arms to reflect an explosion. It's extremely bright, and then quickly goes very dark. If you don't adjust you lose a *ton* of image detail in the dark frames. But I've no idea if this movie is available with DV or not.
Thanks for the replies, I'll have a look at those when I'm next in the room
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post #978 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 11:42 AM
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I can see having different settings for different input formats, but why do people need different settings for different input devices? It's not like you get that now with your projector. Think of the Envy as an extension of your projector's capabilities rather than an extension of your AVR/switcher capabilities.
This is quite often useful for folk with 3/4 way masking screen. Eg you might choose for football (coming off your TV box) that 16:9 content is shown with all masks open, but that for 16:9 movies from your movie server they are masked down to CIH. The image in both cases coming out of the source would be the same (full frame 16:9), so the fact it is coming from the TV box might be a useful indicator for different masking.

Other areas would be things like motion processing - you might choose to apply it to some sources but not to others. Or compensation for image artifacts from streaming services.

While you might not get that now with with your projector, if you have currently a Lumagen in your system you do get that kind of functionality. Comparing to what you get with a projector is a bit moot, this is going into the video processor market, and not the projector market.
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post #979 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 11:49 AM
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I can see having different settings for different input formats, but why do people need different settings for different input devices? It's not like you get that now with your projector. Think of the Envy as an extension of your projector's capabilities rather than an extension of your AVR/switcher capabilities.
This is quite often useful for folk with 3/4 way masking screen. Eg you might choose for football (coming off your TV box) that 16:9 content is shown with all masks open, but that for 16:9 movies from your movie server they are masked down to CIH. The image in both cases coming out of the source would be the same (full frame 16:9), so the fact it is coming from the TV box might be a useful indicator for different masking.

Other areas would be things like motion processing - you might choose to apply it to some sources but not to others. Or compensation for image artifacts from streaming services.

While you might not get that now with with your projector, if you have currently a Lumagen in your system you do get that kind of functionality. Comparing to what you get with a projector is a bit moot, this is going into the video processor market, and not the projector market. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Exactly my point . Asking for a huge premium to be the best video processor but not having any video input / output switching ( and asking a audio processor company to do it ) and not able to have different preset for different input source , I think is short sightedness . I think I am out for now , will check back when the final product is released and I hope they make these changes as I surely want them to succeed and have some competition in video processor field .
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post #980 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 12:08 PM
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Okay. Seems like an economical way to have multiple inputs would be to leave the envy alone and create a cheap switch box which communicates to the envy which input it is using in some fashion. I get that having multiple HDCP inputs would raise the cost significantly for the PC.
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post #981 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 12:13 PM
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Okay. Seems like an economical way to have multiple inputs would be to leave the envy alone and create a cheap switch box which communicates to the envy which input it is using in some fashion. I get that having multiple HDCP inputs would raise the cost significantly for the PC.
That won’t solve the problem of having different video settings for different sources/inputs unless they can integrate it into their box ?? I think for market and custom integrators they are targeting , that it is a very important and significant feature .
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post #982 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 12:19 PM
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That won’t solve the problem of having different video settings for different sources/inputs unless they can integrate it into their box ?? I think for market and custom integrators they are targeting , that it is a very important and significant feature .
If the switcher communicates to the envy as to which input it is on, then the Envy can have different settings for that input. The switch itself doesn't need to be integrated into the same box.
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post #983 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 12:21 PM
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That won’t solve the problem of having different video settings for different sources/inputs unless they can integrate it into their box ?? I think for market and custom integrators they are targeting , that it is a very important and significant feature .
So the actual requirement is to be able to distinguish between different sources and apply different settings to them. That´s sth i agree to.
How the different sources are fed into the Envy is a different story, that doesn´t neccessarily mean you need multiple HDMI-inputs.
i think it would make sense to separate these two requirements.
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post #984 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 12:44 PM
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Or an external HDMI switch which can be controlled via the Envy by USB. That may already exist as a product.
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post #985 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 03:35 PM
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The difference between Pro Cinema and base unit will be bigger than just the GPU. The Pro Cinema unit will have better hardware overall. If it were just the GPU, a price difference of $5k would not be really fair. I don't know if an upgrade from base model to Pro Cinema will be possible. I'll discuss this with Ric, maybe that could be a good idea. Or maybe not, I'm not sure.
Thanks for entertaining everyone's suggestions, amazing.

Here's another spin on possible upgrade-ability.


Mid level
Have a mid-level unit slotted between base and pro? "Enthusiast?" Basically a unit with base model components, but slightly higher cost to cover an upgrade-able chassis (for later CPU, GPU, and HDMI upgrades). Might not be able to ever upgrade everything all the way to the big boys' Pro units, but gives piece of mind as someone else mentioned earlier.
Pro
For the big boy's pro units, maybe throw in upgrade option for multiple HDMI's someday.
.



Throw in pre-order pricing ,and you would have at least one more customer! (probably more lol)


What ever you guys decide, thanks for your great work and good luck!

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post #986 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 03:37 PM
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I thought the Envy looked like a great DTM / video processing solution. A different solution than the Lumagen. More later after Cedia.


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post #987 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 03:41 PM
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Okay. Seems like an economical way to have multiple inputs would be to leave the envy alone and create a cheap switch box which communicates to the envy which input it is using in some fashion. I get that having multiple HDCP inputs would raise the cost significantly for the PC.
For 10k , why should we get an economical solution and an extra box ? Processors like Datasat , Trinnov , storm audio etc are all PC /motherboard based solutions and all have multiple HDMI Ins and switching . So I still don’t understand why can’t it be done with a top of the line PC based video processor?
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post #988 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 03:58 PM
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Ric asked me to not spill too many beans right away...
Now you've got my attention! Can't wait to learn more!
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post #989 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 04:16 PM
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... The HTPC version will stay and be worked on, but to be honest, atm focus is on the Envy. But funky new AI algorithms are already in development...
That sounds real exciting! Won't any new AI algorithms for Envy be automatically available for PC version? Or are you coding at the lowest level possible, for a specific known configuration, such as, Nvidia 2080/2080Ti? Couldn't you release a special (pre-configured) PC version with specific CPU/GPU/driver,etc. constraints and charge a bundle for it? Same look and feel as Envy. MadVR/PC on steroids! I'd buy it!

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post #990 of 1520 Old 09-13-2019, 04:27 PM
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For 10k , why should we get an economical solution and an extra box ? Processors like Datasat , Trinnov , storm audio etc are all PC /motherboard based solutions and all have multiple HDMI Ins and switching . So I still don’t understand why can’t it be done with a top of the line PC based video processor?
It's probably out of scope for this tiny team at this time who are focusing on getting a particular feature set out and working. People who need multiple inputs can use a competing product or wait until the Envy team has time to add this some months or years down the road.
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