madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 35 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1021 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 08:33 AM
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Man I was really hoping for something in the 1500 to 2k mark but 5.5 or 10k is just to much tbh..

For those prices I think it would be best to just buy a better projector / TV which will make a more noticeable difference..
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post #1022 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
My mum used to say... If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle . Santa Claus has more chance of delivering that to you than Panasonic...

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But if they did... Regardless, through “another” I am hopefully getting some info to Panasonic engineering. Look what Panasonic has done for JVC’s projectors re DTM. A pipe dream... likely but it doesn’t hurt to inquire.
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post #1023 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
But if they did... Regardless, through “another” I am hopefully getting some info to Panasonic engineering. Look what Panasonic has done for JVC’s projectors re DTM. A pipe dream... likely but it doesn’t hurt to inquire.
Why do you think the DTM came from Panasonic for JVC? Do you have a source for that?

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post #1024 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Man I was really hoping for something in the 1500 to 2k mark but 5.5 or 10k is just to much tbh..

For those prices I think it would be best to just buy a better projector / TV which will make a more noticeable difference..
But what do you do if you already did that?
However, DTM makes a different on every (even older) projectors, so i don´t think the decision is that easy.
It´s not even neccessary that your projector is HDR-capable. So if you´re happy with your older projector but want to have a great HDR-picture, then it could be a good investment anyway.
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post #1025 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Why do you think the DTM came from Panasonic for JVC? Do you have a source for that?

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Read that somewhere on these forums. I assumed it was accurate, but can not say for sure. If not, please clarify.
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post #1026 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 09:06 AM
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Perhaps in the future MadVR Labs could consider selling the HDMI capture card along with the MadVR pro License for around $1000. A user could then buy/configure the rest of the hardware themselves.

Support would then come from the existing MadVR community.


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post #1027 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Read that somewhere on these forums. I assumed it was accurate, but can not say for sure. If not, please clarify.
I'm not disputing it, but it surprises me a little. Yours was the first time I'd seen this point being made.
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post #1028 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Perhaps in the future MadVR Labs could consider selling the HDMI capture card along with the MadVR pro License for around $1000. A user could then buy/configure the rest of the hardware themselves.
AFAIK this will never happen because for HDCP, the whole chain from input to output needs to be closed and licensed.
The film industry will never allow to have capture cards being able to stream HDCP-content to an open PC.
There are HDMI input cards already available but these are not HDCP-capable. I myself did some tests in the past with such a capture card and was even able to handover a picture to madVR on a PC. But that was very experimental and the HDCP-issue alone let me drop that project.
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post #1029 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Perhaps in the future MadVR Labs could consider selling the HDMI capture card along with the MadVR pro License for around $1000. A user could then buy/configure the rest of the hardware themselves.

Support would then come from the existing MadVR community.


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They can't. Their HDCP license forbids it.
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post #1030 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Man I was really hoping for something in the 1500 to 2k mark but 5.5 or 10k is just to much tbh..

For those prices I think it would be best to just buy a better projector / TV which will make a more noticeable difference..
But what do you do if you already did that? [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
However, DTM makes a different on every (even older) projectors, so i don´t think the decision is that easy.
It´s not even neccessary that your projector is HDR-capable. So if you´re happy with your older projector but want to have a great HDR-picture, then it could be a good investment anyway.
Well here inlies the issue... If you have alread upgraded to a projector to a 10k projector might be able to afford the envy, that is if you know about it.. The market for this stuff is already super thin and by pricing it at the 5.5 and 10K you are probably only going to sell this to tens of people rather than 100s or many 1000s..
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post #1031 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
AFAIK this will never happen because for HDCP, the whole chain from input to output needs to be closed and licensed.
The film industry will never allow to have capture cards being able to stream HDCP-content to an open PC.
There are HDMI input cards already available but these are not HDCP-capable. I myself did some tests in the past with such a capture card and was even able to handover a picture to madVR on a PC. But that was very experimental and the HDCP-issue alone let me drop that project.
I see your point. Plugging any current UHD or regular bluray player into a non-HDCP HDMI input will be a no go. But what if we placed a HD Fury device in the middle.....would that work? I'm not trying to copy, I'm just trying to play my own legal copy of some media in my home theater.

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post #1032 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:19 AM
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My suspicion is that there's probably more money to be made in selling the software and/or licensing proprietary algorithms to other manufacturers, but only time will tell...
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post #1033 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
The market for this stuff is already super thin and by pricing it at the 5.5 and 10K you are probably only going to sell this to tens of people rather than 100s or many 1000s..
Depends on the market strategy of the Envy-team. Not everybody is aiming for high unit numbers. More customers means bigger organization in terms of sales, production, support.
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post #1034 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
The market for this stuff is already super thin and by pricing it at the 5.5 and 10K you are probably only going to sell this to tens of people rather than 100s or many 1000s..
Depends on the market strategy of the Envy-team. Not everybody is aiming for high unit numbers. More customers means bigger organization in terms of sales, production, support.
Well selling a product to 20 people is not good a business model, no matter how you look at it.. I could be wrong, maybe there are 100's or 1000's of people willing to spend this kind of money on this kind if product in this price range.
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post #1035 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
I see your point. Plugging any current UHD or regular bluray player into a non-HDCP HDMI input will be a no go. But what if we placed a HD Fury device in the middle.....would that work? I'm not trying to copy, I'm just trying to play my own legal copy of some media in my home theater.
Theoretically, yes (if you get all the other stuff working stable)
I think for playing local copies of your own media, an HTPC running madVR would be a reasonable alternative.

EDIT: Just saw SamuriHL´s post. I was thinking about the Fury as a HDCP-stripping device. If it´s not doing this, then it won´t help you.

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post #1036 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
I see your point. Plugging any current UHD or regular bluray player into a non-HDCP HDMI input will be a no go. But what if we placed a HD Fury device in the middle.....would that work? I'm not trying to copy, I'm just trying to play my own legal copy of some media in my home theater.

Nope, won't help you. The HD Fury is licensed, as well, afaik. Any licensed HDCP device is going to output HDCP, as well. Can you get an HDCP stripper? Yes, they exist. Usually in the form of splitters that "inadvertantly" strip HDCP. But, your luck with those may vary.
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post #1037 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:32 AM
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Well selling a product to 20 people is not good a business model, no matter how you look at it.. I could be wrong, maybe there are 100's or 1000's of people willing to spend this kind of money on this kind if product in this price range.
With 20 people, i totally agree with you - i guess that would not even pay the pizza bill.
But i´m pretty sure there will be more than that.
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post #1038 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:34 AM
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Isn't the fact that Lumagen is still around selling high priced VP's proof that there is a market for these?

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post #1039 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:53 AM
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Well selling a product to 20 people is not good a business model, no matter how you look at it.. I could be wrong, maybe there are 100's or 1000's of people willing to spend this kind of money on this kind if product in this price range.
What do you think people say about companies selling $250k pairs of speakers?

Is there a market for $40k processors?

People just wanted the Envy to be cheaper and now some are saddened....it will still sell, it's just not for everybody...much like any product in the world.
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post #1040 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:54 AM
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Isn't the fact that Lumagen is still around selling high priced VP's proof that there is a market for these? [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I don't this this is a good comparison.

1. Lumagen has built a business on the back of a real need (upscaling) in a time when it was really needed. Don't get me wrong tone mapping is nice but not nearly and important and proper upscaling of 720P contact to a 120 inch screen.

2. Lumagen already has a foundation with the people looking for products like this.

3. Madvr is primarily known by people not looking to spend money 6k on a video processor and instead are willing to use existing items to make it work (PC)

4 and most importantly Lumagen products are cheaper.
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post #1041 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 10:58 AM
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Well selling a product to 20 people is not good a business model, no matter how you look at it.. I could be wrong, maybe there are 100's or 1000's of people willing to spend this kind of money on this kind if product in this price range.
What do you think people say about companies selling $250k pairs of speakers?

Is there a market for $40k processors?

People just wanted the Envy to be cheaper and now some are saddened....it will still sell, it's just not for everybody...much like any product in the world.
I hope your right I honestly do.. If this is a successful venture it probably mean a cheaper solution down the road..

Also audiophiles are generally older wealthier people than videophiles at least that has been my experience
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post #1042 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 11:02 AM
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Well, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion about that. This is not being marketed to the HTPC crowd. I can't imagine madshi would take this concept this far without having first gauged the market for such a product and potential price points that high end installers are willing to spend. I think it's quite short sighted to think that for 4K sources the "only" benefit the Envy brings to the table is dynamic tone mapping. 1) Even if that were true, you'd have to really sit with the output of that to understand how much value it brings. 2) It's not true anyway. There's a ton of things you can do with a 4K signal to improve the visual quality of it. These are things madvr already does well. Given the hardware thrown into the Envy, these are things that the Envy is going to EXCEL at. We've yet to see what madshi can do with those tensor cores and trained AI neural networks. We've seen what NGU can do and I can tell you I VASTLY prefer the output of that over anything else I've got in my home theater setup. What we've "seen" so far from Envy is nothing more than a teaser. When I said that madshi doesn't understand the word "finalized" that was a compliment, not a detriment. He will CONSTANTLY refine the algorithms and capabilities of these boxes. I personally believe there is a market for these. I know madshi believes that, too. Otherwise we wouldn't be here today discussing it. What he said about the excitement at CEDIA is positive IMO. We shall see once it's released, out in the wild, proper reviews, etc if it's priced correctly or not and whether it can truly capture VP market share. I think it can.
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post #1043 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
Theoretically, yes (if you get all the other stuff working stable)
I think for playing local copies of your own media, an HTPC running madVR would be a reasonable alternative.

EDIT: Just saw SamuriHL´s post. I was thinking about the Fury as a HDCP-stripping device. If it´s not doing this, then it won´t help you.
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Nope, won't help you. The HD Fury is licensed, as well, afaik. Any licensed HDCP device is going to output HDCP, as well. Can you get an HDCP stripper? Yes, they exist. Usually in the form of splitters that "inadvertantly" strip HDCP. But, your luck with those may vary.
HDfury 4K devices do not strip HDCP for consumer use. They had to fight and win a lawsuit just to be able to convert HDCP 2.2 to 1.4 in order to support older displays.
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post #1044 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 11:25 AM
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I have to ageee with the vast majority I have spoken to about the size, cost and lack of hdmi ins and outs. I would seriously consider starting the next gen now and address those product killing issues. Maybe make a few of what you have and sell them as “special edition?’” Then come back with a new chassis, more HDMI flexibility and of course cost effect pricing. If anything we still have to give bonus points for putting in all this effort. That I definitely applaud. Envy 2 anyone?


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post #1045 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 12:54 PM
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Well selling a product to 20 people is not good a business model, no matter how you look at it.. I could be wrong, maybe there are 100's or 1000's of people willing to spend this kind of money on this kind if product in this price range.
There are roughly 11 million households in the US alone with a net worth of $1 million dollars. Even if only .01% are into high end AV gear that is a lot of households with more than enough discretionary spending for an outstanding video processor. Just not me.

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post #1046 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 01:10 PM
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Why do you think the DTM came from Panasonic for JVC? Do you have a source for that?

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Read that somewhere on these forums. I assumed it was accurate, but can not say for sure. If not, please clarify.
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I'm not disputing it, but it surprises me a little. Yours was the first time I'd seen this point being made.
This rumor is due to a misunderstanding. Panasonic has never developed JVC's tonemapping.

What has happened is that the two company have collaborated so that JVC would integrate Picture modes that are expected to be fed Panasonic's players static tonemapping.

This two picture modes were added by f/w update a few months ago.

So Panasonic does a first step of tonemapping in the player and outputs it to the JVC at a fixed brightness, I think 350nits or 500nits depending on the profile.

JVC takes this output from the player, and applies its own tonemapping, knowing that the peak remains the same the whole time.

This dual tonemapping is a collaboration between the two comapnies, but each one is using its own tech. They just agreed on an "handshake" to optimise the compatibility between their products.

Somehow, the internet converted that into "Panasonic is designing JVC's tonemapping".

Now back to the Envy

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post #1047 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 01:15 PM
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Question

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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
There are roughly 11 million households in the US alone with a net worth of $1 million dollars. Even if only .01% are into high end AV gear that is a lot of households with more than enough discretionary spending for an outstanding video processor. Just not me.

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I like your POST ^^^

Even if a household happens to have the necessary funds like as an example $10,000.00 US Dollars does not mean we are going to spend it for that in the H/T.
The one thing that I wish we could get a reply to from someone NOT selling those products is .........
The exact same movie in 4K just how great of a difference is there to a normal layman if No-One pointed out what to look for ???
Meaning as an example, no-one has to point out the difference to anyone when viewing say a DVD versus a Blu-ray DVD, right guys ???
I can't comment on what one should expect to see with the Lumagen or the latest ENVY both for around the same monies.
But, honestly I'm really-really thinking if we happen to own either the Sony ES5000 Laser or in my case the JVC RS4500 Laser that's been custom calibrated.
Just how much of an improvement can it really be to once again the layman that just loads up a 4K disc and watches that movie ???
And is NOT sitting right on top of their screen like as an example 8-10 feet from a 123" or certainly larger screens ???
It seems to me that what we have here on AVS are a few/some members that to me are much more into being Super-Critical at Analyzing the picture than actually just loading a disc and enjoying the movie.
And for what it's worth for those I just mentioned above ^^^ I say more power to you if that's what your into and what makes you happy.
In my case and I honestly think many-many other consumers we want to simply watch a movie for the joy of it without all the Super-Critical-Analyzing.

I doubt any of us will ever get a straight-forward down to earth reply to what I am posting.

Wait, guys, I have an idea ...........
Let's use the comparison of like the difference in viewing a DVD versus a Blu-Ray DVD ???
I'll make a stab at this even as a layman ........
Yes-Yes-Yes there is usually a Giant difference between a DVD & Blu-ray, right ???
Now next step, example, difference between a Blu-ray & 4K ???
Given we are referring to a good Blu-ray DVD as well as a good 4K to me video wise there is NOT anywhere near the difference as the difference between the DVD & Blu-ray, right guys ???

So, just maybe the above examples will give enough of an example so those that have or seen in a H/T NOT a DEMO what's the Real-World difference having either the Lumagen or the new/latest ENVY ???
Keep it simple guys if your going to answer, please so we as laymen can understand your example/examples without all the technical explanations.

Terry

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post #1048 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Read that somewhere on these forums. I assumed it was accurate, but can not say for sure. If not, please clarify.
Speaking with the Panasonic Rep in the JVC booth I did not get that impression from him. He thought that the algorithms in the new firmware will work well with the 820/9000 but he never said JVC was using their software.

I highly doubt it because what really does Panasonic get out of it even if they got $20 a unit. JVC had to modify things to take out the Pin cushion and it is not like there aren't a lot of software engineers working on DTM so I bet they had 1/2 done when they did the Panni profiles. But we don't know for sure.

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post #1049 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Well selling a product to 20 people is not good a business model, no matter how you look at it.. I could be wrong, maybe there are 100's or 1000's of people willing to spend this kind of money on this kind if product in this price range.
There are roughly 11 million households in the US alone with a net worth of $1 million dollars. Even if only .01% are into high end AV gear that is a lot of households with more than enough discretionary spending for an outstanding video processor. Just not me.

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Oh I have the funds to buy this I just refuse to spend that much money on it.

I have madvr setup on am htpc in my theater... it makes a noticable difference, not doubt but IMHO that difference is not worth 5.5 or 10K..

I was honestly ready to spend 2k though and that would have been the price I would be ready and in-line to purchase it..
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Last edited by Justin_Rogers; 09-14-2019 at 01:34 PM.
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post #1050 of 1571 Old 09-14-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
I like your POST ^^^



Even if a household happens to have the necessary funds like as an example $10,000.00 US Dollars does not mean we are going to spend it for that in the H/T.

The one thing that I wish we could get a reply to from someone NOT selling those products is .........

The exact same movie in 4K just how great of a difference is there to a normal layman if No-One pointed out what to look for ???

Meaning as an example, no-one has to point out the difference to anyone when viewing say a DVD versus a Blu-ray DVD, right guys ???

I can't comment on what one should expect to see with the Lumagen or the latest ENVY both for around the same monies.

But, honestly I'm really-really thinking if we happen to own either the Sony ES5000 Laser or in my case the JVC RS4500 Laser that's been custom calibrated.

Just how much of an improvement can it really be to once again the layman that just loads up a 4K disc and watches that movie ???

And is NOT sitting right on top of their screen like as an example 8-10 feet from a 123" or certainly larger screens ???

It seems to me that what we have here on AVS are a few/some members that to me are much more into being Super-Critical at Analyzing the picture than actually just loading a disc and enjoying the movie.

And for what it's worth for those I just mentioned above ^^^ I say more power to you if that's what your into and what makes you happy.

In my case and I honestly think many-many other consumers we want to simply watch a movie for the joy of it without all the Super-Critical-Analyzing.



I doubt any of us will ever get a straight-forward down to earth reply to what I am posting.



Wait, guys, I have an idea ...........

Let's use the comparison of like the difference in viewing a DVD versus a Blu-Ray DVD ???

I'll make a stab at this even as a layman ........

Yes-Yes-Yes there is usually a Giant difference between a DVD & Blu-ray, right ???

Now next step, example, difference between a Blu-ray & 4K ???

Given we are referring to a good Blu-ray DVD as well as a good 4K to me video wise there is NOT anywhere near the difference as the difference between the DVD & Blu-ray, right guys ???



So, just maybe the above examples will give enough of an example so those that have or seen in a H/T NOT a DEMO what's the Real-World difference having either the Lumagen or the new/latest ENVY ???

Keep it simple guys if your going to answer, please so we as laymen can understand your example/examples without all the technical explanations.



Terry
I have an analogy I think applies. Most people can tell the difference between a bad bottle of wine and a good bottle . Another smaller percentage can really discern the taste between a good $25 Bordeaux and a $100 Bordeaux. Then you have the .001% of people who have a sophisticated enough palate to actually be able to tell the difference between the $100 bottle and the $1000 or $10,000 Bordeaux. But many affluent people still buy really expensive wine, even if I blind taste tested those people they couldn't tell me which was the $1000 bottle. That is the evolution from DVD TO 4K with Dynamic Tone Mapping done via a video processor. Yes there are people who could tell the difference without being told what the differences are. But just like the expensive wine most people need to have the differences pointed out to them and they convince themselves they can then notice them. Most of them still cannot.

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