madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Read that somewhere on these forums. I assumed it was accurate, but can not say for sure. If not, please clarify.
The Panasonic players do not even do dynamic tone mapping. They do metadata based tone mapping that is similar to JVC auto-tone mapping. Not like the new JVC dynamic tone mapping.
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post #1052 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Perhaps in the future MadVR Labs could consider selling the HDMI capture card along with the MadVR pro License for around $1000. A user could then buy/configure the rest of the hardware themselves.
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Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
AFAIK this will never happen because for HDCP, the whole chain from input to output needs to be closed and licensed.
The film industry will never allow to have capture cards being able to stream HDCP-content to an open PC.
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
They can't. Their HDCP license forbids it.
I'm not so sure it would be forbidden. If it were, then the Envy product itself would likely be verboten too - because it would be doing risky things for the precious video content, and it wouldn't be hard to take the capture card out of a unit and have an HDCP buster (security by the obscurity of sales channel or packaging wouldn't be security at all).

Of course, if you made an HDCP capable capture card that was a generic Directshow device which any old video application could connect to and receive the decrypted video then you'd be up for court pretty quick. But if you take the example of an HDCP licensed piece of software like PowerDVD - that has all the tech implemented for HDCP descrambling; but the proviso is that descrambled output can only make it to the display via the Protected Media Path architecture (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ted-media-path). Even single frame screenshots are outlawed I believe. In order to have a licensed implementation @madshi will either have to be using PMP or have implemented something similarly secure himself. PMP prevents capture of the video per se to the OS, but does allow it to get to the graphics card in a safe manner.

There is a reason such a "capture" card doesn't exist yet - it would basically be useless to al intents and purposes for the usual market. Capture cards on PC basically exist for recording the video to disk, and that would be completely out of the question due to the HDCP license. But I don't see why an input card that was able to operate within the PMP architecture or alternative couldn't be sold along with the application that connected the video up to the graphics card in a safe manner.
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post #1053 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
The Panasonic players do not even do dynamic tone mapping. They do metadata based tone mapping that is similar to JVC auto-tone mapping. Not like the new JVC dynamic tone mapping.
I have owned many Panasonic 4k players, including the UB9000 presently. I never said it did DTM. I am quite aware their players use static/metadata tone mapping. It’s likely a matter of time before new (big $) models do DTM though. I have not owned a JVC projector since my RS20. I do pop in the JVC forums from time to time where I read this, but not enough to analyze the veracity of the posts.

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post #1054 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'm not so sure it would be forbidden. If it were, then the Envy product itself would likely be verboten too - because it would be doing risky things for the precious video content, and it wouldn't be hard to take the capture card out of a unit and have an HDCP buster (security by the obscurity of sales channel or packaging wouldn't be security at all).

Of course, if you made an HDCP capable capture card that was a generic Directshow device which any old video application could connect to and receive the decrypted video then you'd be up for court pretty quick. But if you take the example of an HDCP licensed piece of software like PowerDVD - that has all the tech implemented for HDCP descrambling; but the proviso is that descrambled output can only make it to the display via the Protected Media Path architecture (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ted-media-path). Even single frame screenshots are outlawed I believe. In order to have a licensed implementation @madshi will either have to be using PMP or have implemented something similarly secure himself. PMP prevents capture of the video per se to the OS, but does allow it to get to the graphics card in a safe manner.

There is a reason such a "capture" card doesn't exist yet - it would basically be useless to al intents and purposes for the usual market. Capture cards on PC basically exist for recording the video to disk, and that would be completely out of the question due to the HDCP license. But I don't see why an input card that was able to operate within the PMP architecture or alternative couldn't be sold along with the application that connected the video up to the graphics card in a safe manner.

Being on a PC it's likely to get hacked. I don't think they'd take the risk. The licensing terms you agree to when you become a licensee are very strict. There's absolutely no way he could take what's being used in the envy and legally sell it as a stand alone card, even if he did protect it like you're suggesting. I suspect most people haven't looked up what it takes to become an HDCP licensee. It's 15k a year plus ~2k for several thousand device keys. And again, the usage of said license is VERY strict when you sign up for it. Violating that opens you up to litigation and getting your license pulled. I very much doubt madshi would be willing to risk losing his HDCP license just to sell some cheap input cards to shut up the HTPC crowd because envy is "too expensive." I mean, that's just a guess on my part, but, I think it's a reasonable one.
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post #1055 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Well selling a product to 20 people is not good a business model, no matter how you look at it.. I could be wrong, maybe there are 100's or 1000's of people willing to spend this kind of money on this kind if product in this price range.
I think you’re right. The problem is most of them already have Lumagen (front-end processing) in their systems. I don’t see them wanting to throw that out the window and go to a back-end only VP solution, as Madshi is suggesting the Envy be connected (AVR>PJ). Maybe they don’t mind adding Envy to the back-end and keeping Lumagen in the front-end. Does seem redundant tho and maybe even problematic. Would be nice not to care about cost for the best experience!

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post #1056 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Being on a PC it's likely to get hacked. I don't think they'd take the risk. The licensing terms you agree to when you become a licensee are very strict. There's absolutely no way he could take what's being used in the envy and legally sell it as a stand alone card, even if he did protect it like you're suggesting. I suspect most people haven't looked up what it takes to become an HDCP licensee. It's 15k a year plus ~2k for several thousand device keys. And again, the usage of said license is VERY strict when you sign up for it. Violating that opens you up to litigation and getting your license pulled. I very much doubt madshi would be willing to risk losing his HDCP license just to sell some cheap input cards to shut up the HTPC crowd because envy is "too expensive." I mean, that's just a guess on my part, but, I think it's a reasonable one.
If as hinted it is a Windows 10 IOT or other binary compatible Windows variant the same applies, it would be just as easy to break. HDCP agreement is about technical solutions, not soft factors such as you are listing. You'd have to point at the bits of the agreement you believe are problematic for selling the card + SW vs the card in a box running said software...
For anyone else interested, the agreement is here:
https://digital-cp.com/sites/default...IEW%20ONLY.pdf
Exhibits C and D are the gory detail (page 36 onwards).

Of course it is a completely legitimate commercial decision not to unbundle the card and SW if the implementation meets the robustness requirements of the HDCP agreement. If it doesn't meet those requirements it can't happen either in the Envy or as a standalone.

I don't think there is any impediment to releasing the card + SW if they wanted to at a commercial level. That's not the same as thinking they should do it - I don't, as they'll then have to support a load of cards even more than if they were in Envy products while making tiny dollar amounts on them. It doesn't really make sense unless you could achieve huge volume.

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post #1057 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 02:49 PM
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madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
doesn't really make sense unless you could achieve huge volume.

Chances are that an HDMI input card + MadVR Pro software bundle would achieve high volume even if priced at $1000. Probably won’t happen but there are a lot of people out there that want to support MadVR + want the Envy but will find it difficult to justify at the current price points.



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post #1058 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 02:50 PM
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Given what madshi said about not even being able to "capture" a couple frames for identification of the source purposes, I'm sure something in there would preclude it. Nonetheless the discussion is academic. It's not super likely that madvr llc is going to offer such a product as they are currently focused on still getting the envy out the door. I agree that it doesn't make sense for them to go after this market. Selfishly I would LOVE a card that did that so I could essentially turn my 2070 HTPC into an envy, but, I don't think that's realistic. And as you said, it's not even a likely target they'd want to go after. Anyone is welcome to buy a base Envy and rip the card out of it. JOKING! I'm 100% kidding!
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post #1059 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Chances are that an HDMI capture card + MadVR Pro software bundle would achieve high volume even if priced at $1000. Probably won’t happen but there are a lot of people out there that want to support MadVR + want the Envy but will find it difficult to justify at the current price points.



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Ok, right here is the issue. Please don't call it a capture card. Yes, this is semantics but in terms of the license that DOES matter. Let's call it an input card. Maybe then there's a 0.01% chance of it happening vs calling it a "capture card" which automatically rules it out.
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post #1060 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Ok, right here is the issue. Please don't call it a capture card. Yes, this is semantics but in terms of the license that DOES matter. Let's call it an input card. Maybe then there's a 0.01% chance of it happening vs calling it a "capture card" which automatically rules it out.


Happy to comply.

Input card it is.


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post #1061 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 03:06 PM
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LOL! I don't think it's something they could consider doing. It would be pretty sweet, but, I don't think it's super realistic.
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post #1062 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Ok, right here is the issue. Please don't call it a capture card. Yes, this is semantics but in terms of the license that DOES matter. Let's call it an input card. Maybe then there's a 0.01% chance of it happening vs calling it a "capture card" which automatically rules it out.
Why doesn't someone create an (input only card with HDCP compliance) that only let's you watch the (bits) and not record? Impossible?
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post #1063 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 03:53 PM
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Why doesn't someone create an (input only card with HDCP compliance) that only let's you watch the (bits) and not record? Impossible?

I don't think it's impossible. It might be difficult. But it would be costly. And is there a huge market for it? I don't know.
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post #1064 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 03:57 PM
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I don't think it's impossible. It might be difficult. But it would be costly. And is there a huge market for it? I don't know.
If they could make one for less than say $500, I would love one on my PC. Think of all the devices you could connect!
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post #1065 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 03:58 PM
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If they could make one for less than say $500, I would love one one my PC. Think of all the devices you could connect!

Add a zero and I know where you'll be able to get one. LMAO
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post #1066 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Read that somewhere on these forums. I assumed it was accurate, but can not say for sure. If not, please clarify.
Yea that was misinformation spread by some other unknowing user.

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I'm not disputing it, but it surprises me a little. Yours was the first time I'd seen this point being made.
I am disputing it. It's not true.

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post #1067 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Perhaps in the future MadVR Labs could consider selling the HDMI capture card along with the MadVR pro License for around $1000. A user could then buy/configure the rest of the hardware themselves.

Support would then come from the existing MadVR community.


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Not only will their license prohibit this, but I can tell you that these captures cards are way expensive costing them way more than $1000. No way you can then buy it for that.

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My suspicion is that there's probably more money to be made in selling the software and/or licensing proprietary algorithms to other manufacturers, but only time will tell...
This won't be useful. Many people think its just that simple, but the amount of computing power to run these algorithms is simply not available on any other device. The algorithms are tied to specific hardware at the moment also.

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1. Lumagen has built a business on the back of a real need (upscaling) in a time when it was really needed. Don't get me wrong tone mapping is nice but not nearly and important and proper upscaling of 720P contact to a 120 inch screen.
MadVR's NGU AI based upscaling is the best I've ever seen. Upscaled 1080p to 4K is often better done on the fly with madVR than the movie studios UHD from 2K source material. Nothing else has ever taken 1080p and made it look 4K like scaling wise. Some of the better scalers I've seen have definitely improved the original source ever so slightly. With madVR's upscaler, you can often (but not always) get demo worthy upscaled content. It's in a completely different league than Lumagen's upscaler, which is more like a standard bicubic upscale with some anti-ringing applied. I consider the HDR tone mapping far less of a feature than this upscaler. You won't find another like it anywhere outside of madVR.

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post #1068 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
1. Lumagen has built a business on the back of a real need (upscaling) in a time when it was really needed. Don't get me wrong tone mapping is nice but not nearly and important and proper upscaling of 720P contact to a 120 inch screen.
MadVR's NGU AI based upscaling is the best I've ever seen. Upscaled 1080p to 4K is often better done on the fly with madVR than the movie studios UHD from 2K source material. Nothing else has ever taken 1080p and made it look 4K like scaling wise. Some of the better scalers I've seen have definitely improved the original source ever so slightly. With madVR's upscaler, you can often (but not always) get demo worthy upscaled content. It's in a completely different league than Lumagen's upscaler, which is more like a standard bicubic upscale with some anti-ringing applied. I consider the HDR tone mapping far less of a feature than this upscaler. You won't find another like it anywhere outside of madVR.
Exactly tone mapping is not nearly as important as the upscaling and upscaling is a much less needed tool today then it was when people were upscaling DVD's to 1080P..

Hence why I think a product like this in this price range is a very hard sell today.
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post #1069 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:23 PM
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...This won't be useful. Many people think its just that simple, but the amount of computing power to run these algorithms is simply not available on any other device. The algorithms are tied to specific hardware at the moment also....
Mark, check out my post #989 , page 33. I’m I totally off base? Wouldn’t a tied down architecture solve the hardware/software interface problem for a PC solution, at it's best and most easy to use? I want to be able to easily upgrade both software and hardware. Plug n' play, as much as possible.
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post #1070 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:29 PM
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Exactly tone mapping is not nearly as important as the upscaling and upscaling is a much less needed tool today then it was when people were upscaling DVD's to 1080P..

Hence why I think a product like this in this price range is a very hard sell today.
Sorry, I disagree with part of this. Most content is *not* native 4K. Most content is still 1080p. Yes, the latest movies get released on 4K but 99% of TV shows are still 1080p as is the huge collection of bluray disks people still own. If you have a native 4K projector, and I'm not talking some pixel shifter but a real 4K projector, then you can really see a difference between the 4K and 1080p if you sit close enough. This device is for those people. Right now, there aren't a ton of those folks but there will be more and more as real native 4K projectors gain popularity. Many of those people also do not have a lumagen yet so ENVY is still a consideration.

The value of upscaling of madVR quality levels is not going to be useful for those with "large" TVs. They're just too small to benefit from native 4K let alone upscaled 4K. The benefit on pixel shifted 4K projectors is also questionable, although I did get some good results on my RS640 using madVR's upscaler it was nothing like the RS4500.

This product was never intended to be marketed at someone that "is now out" because it wasn't $1500-2000. Those folks should just move on.

No one has talked street pricing either. The $5000 ENVY model is similarly priced to the top end Lumagen. If upscaling is your main need, then the ENVY would be by far the way to go here. Street pricing may be $4000-$4500 who knows. No one has called around asking yet. There aren't even any dealers.

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Exactly tone mapping is not nearly as important as the upscaling and upscaling is a much less needed tool today then it was when people were upscaling DVD's to 1080P..

Hence why I think a product like this in this price range is a very hard sell today.
Sorry, I disagree with part of this. Most content is *not* native 4K. Most content is still 1080p. Yes, the latest movies get released on 4K but 99% of TV shows are still 1080p as is the huge collection of bluray disks people still own. If you have a native 4K projector, and I'm not talking some pixel shifter but a real 4K projector, then you can really see a difference between the 4K and 1080p if you sit close enough. This device is for those people. Right now, there aren't a ton of those folks but there will be more and more as real native 4K projectors gain popularity. Many of those people also do not have a lumagen yet so ENVY is still a consideration.

The value of upscaling of madVR quality levels is not going to be useful for those with "large" TVs. They're just too small to benefit from native 4K let alone upscaled 4K. The benefit on pixel shifted 4K projectors is also questionable, although I did get some good results on my RS640 using madVR's upscaler it was nothing like the RS4500.

This product was never intended to be marketed at someone that "is now out" because it wasn't $1500-2000. Those folks should just move on.

No one has talked street pricing either. The $5000 ENVY model is similarly priced to the top end Lumagen. If upscaling is your main need, then the ENVY would be by far the way to go here. Street pricing may be $4000-$4500 who knows. No one has called around asking yet. There aren't even any dealers.
Dont get me wrong.. I use madvr on my computer projected to a 120 inch screen.. I have a pretty good idea of its benefits..

Madvr does not make 1080P bluray content look better than 4k bluray disks of the same film regardless of if they are studio upscaled 2k content or not..
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post #1072 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:39 PM
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That sounds real exciting! Won't any new AI algorithms for Envy be automatically available for PC version? Or are you coding at the lowest level possible, for a specific known configuration, such as, Nvidia 2080/2080Ti? Couldn't you release a special (pre-configured) PC version with specific CPU/GPU/driver,etc. constraints and charge a bundle for it? Same look and feel as Envy. MadVR/PC on steroids! I'd buy it!
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Mark, check out my post #989 , page 33. I’m I totally off base? Wouldn’t a tied down architecture solve the hardware/software interface problem for a PC solution, at it's best and most easy to use? I want to be able to easily upgrade both software and hardware. Plug n' play, as much as possible.
My opinion here is that madVR will continue development of new algorithms for a couple reasons:
1) It's a great way to get some free testing and feedback done by many users.
2) It's a great way to add tons of options in complex configurations at first, then limit them down to something easy after it's refined.
3) PC hardware can be upgraded regularly so you can test stuff on the latest, then refine it to something else later.
The PC version isn't going away.

As far as look and feel of ENVY, I just don't see this being needed. I use madVR daily and never go into the menus. Who cares what the GUI looks like to get the setup configured? Once it's done you dont use it or see it again. The ENVY needs to be controlled with a remote control. It's got to be easy to configure this way. The PC side can use a mouse and keyboard. Way more power to configuration and way more options can be presented. I don't desire something that looks like ENVY on PC side. I'm good with what we have now.

And btw, the madVR settings.bin file is just a binary file. l Some other app could be written to edit it that looks different. I just don't think anyone really cares.

I understand you seem to be looking for something that's more automatic. That means you load madVR and it automatically loads some options for you based on your hardware. That sounds great for a lot of users but it is also limiting. What if you prefer other settings than what madVR has decided is best for you? What if you like to add a little bit of post processing after upscaling in exchange for NGU High vs NGU very high?

I think the current madVR beta's look pretty complicated to setup but that's because they're still beta. Madshi has repeatedly stated that he wants to simplify those options for the actual release. Even so, as it stands, there are plenty of tutorials with photos to get setup on the current madVR so it's not so painful to follow along and start with those as baseline settings.

Also, someone could take madVR as it stands today and create presets for various video cards and save those settings.bin files. You could start by replacing your settings.bin file with one of those and tweak from there.
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post #1073 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:41 PM
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Dont get me wrong.. I use madvr on my computer projected to a 120 inch screen.. I have a pretty good idea of its benefits..

Madvr does not make 1080P bluray content look better than 4k bluray disks of the same film regardless of if they are studio upscaled 2k content or not..
Please read carefully, I never said madVR makes a bluray look better than a UHD. This is due to HDR being added on the studio upscaled 2K. They do a lot more than just upscale the bluray to get UHD.

However, often times madVR's 1080p bluray upscaled *is sharper* than the studio's equivalent UHD disk mastered from a 2K source. That says a lot for the tons of content that's not available in UHD being run through madVR vs some other upscaler.

Edit: also, how close are you sitting to that 120" screen? If you're further than say 10 feet, you may be outside the majority of the 4K benefits range anyway. And what projector are you using? These are all factors in whether or not you're able to see these benefits on your setup.

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post #1074 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Dont get me wrong.. I use madvr on my computer projected to a 120 inch screen.. I have a pretty good idea of its benefits..

Madvr does not make 1080P bluray content look better than 4k bluray disks of the same film regardless of if they are studio upscaled 2k content or not..
Please read carefully, I never said madVR makes a bluray look better than a UHD. This is due to HDR being added on the studio upscaled 2K. They do a lot more than just upscale the bluray to get UHD.

However, often times madVR's 1080p bluray upscaled *is sharper* than the studio's equivalent UHD disk mastered from a 2K source. That says a lot for the tons of content that's not available in UHD being run through madVR vs some other upscaler.
Lol I was just making sure.. Cause IMHO the 10bit HDR color gradient from the studio almost always makes the 4k bluray disks outshine the regular SDR 8bit content..

IMHO 4k and 1080P are super hard to tell apart from a resolution perspctuve on most displays unless you pixel peep anyways.. And yes the content actually has very little extra real resolution as almost all content is just 2k upscale anyways.

But from my perspective we have reached an era where more resolution is not really even helping.. which is why I think selling a product like this in this price range is a hard sale today.

I mean I really wish the team all the luck in the world and hope it's a hit.. There is just part if me that hoped this would be a little more affordable and sucsessful than it looks like it might turn out.. Fingers crossed though
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post #1075 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
IMHO 4k and 1080P are super hard to tell apart from a resolution perspctuve on most displays unless you pixel peep anyways.. And yes the content actually has very little extra real resolution as almost all content is just 2k upscale anyways.

But from my perspective we have reached an era where more resolution is not really even helping.. which is why I think selling a product like this in this price range is a hard sale today.

I mean I really wish the team all the luck in the world and hope it's a hit.. There is just part if me that hoped this would be a little more affordable and sucsessful than it looks like it might turn out.. Fingers crossed though
Right. All this is true if you sit too far away from your screen or do not have a native 4K projector. You will feel this way if you are further than 1 screen width away from your screen (you should be even closer) or if your projector is not native 4K.

However, if you sit within the proper viewing zone *for 4K resolution* and have a true native 4K projector then this is far from the truth. And it is for these people that they will be interested in this type of product. You don't need to be pixel peeping to notice the difference. Just have the proper equipment at the proper viewing distance. Then the upscaling is a real marvel, extremely noticeable and very much desirable.
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post #1076 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
As far as look and feel of ENVY, I just don't see this being needed.
But see, that is the main thing I want. A simple turn-key PC solution. I feel the Envy interface must/will allow for some tweaking. If it's good enough for a $10k machine crowd, it's good enough for me. Thanks for your input, Mark.
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post #1077 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 05:15 PM
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LOL! I don't think it's something they could consider doing. It would be pretty sweet, but, I don't think it's super realistic.
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Happy to comply.

Input card it is.


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You guys are incredible! Great idea, seriously i think.

Could it be a real option if rest of HTPC hardware was legal like using kaby lake cpu etc over in the hardware requirement thread? If so, could madshi set it up like power dvd and let the protected bits flow? Would be awesome! Not as nice and stable as an easy plug and play Envy, but still awesome if it could be locked down,

Kind of like a kit car version of shelby cobra. A lot more of a pain to set up (and not worth as much, even when done), but still rips when its done!

Dave
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post #1078 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 05:17 PM
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What do you think people say about companies selling $250k pairs of speakers?
Given the kind of speakers I can build myself for 5 grand... I call it highway robbery!
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post #1079 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 05:18 PM
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Hence why I think a product like this in this price range is a very hard sell today.
I disagree. I have been using MadVR for at least 6 or 7 years. To me being able to apply MadVR processing to streaming video is a win.

Is it expensive? Yes; but so is my projector, my Paladin lens, my pre-pro and amps, my guitars - you get the idea. It may be a hard sell to you. It may be be a hard sell in your circle of influence; doesn't mean it is a hard sell to everybody.

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post #1080 of 1467 Old 09-14-2019, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
IMHO 4k and 1080P are super hard to tell apart from a resolution perspctuve on most displays unless you pixel peep anyways.. And yes the content actually has very little extra real resolution as almost all content is just 2k upscale anyways.

But from my perspective we have reached an era where more resolution is not really even helping.. which is why I think selling a product like this in this price range is a hard sale today.

I mean I really wish the team all the luck in the world and hope it's a hit.. There is just part if me that hoped this would be a little more affordable and sucsessful than it looks like it might turn out.. Fingers crossed though
Right. All this is true if you sit too far away from your screen or do not have a native 4K projector. You will feel this way if you are further than 1 screen width away from your screen (you should be even closer) or if your projector is not native 4K.

However, if you sit within the proper viewing zone *for 4K resolution* and have a true native 4K projector then this is far from the truth. And it is for these people that they will be interested in this type of product. You don't need to be pixel peeping to notice the difference. Just have the proper equipment at the proper viewing distance. Then the upscaling is a real marvel, extremely noticeable and very much desirable.
You call it a marvel I call it a small improvement.. I never said it wasn't noticable but as with all things diminishing returns start to apply.
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