madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 39 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1141 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:13 AM
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My current PC madVR setup (test build 87) gives me a fantastic picture with rich colors and tons of detail. How much of an improvement Envy would make to this already great picture is really a question. IMO, improvement will definitely be there but it won't be a night and day difference. I will buy the paid version of PC madVR as a support to madshi no matter if it will make a difference or not. Thanks madshi for his great work. and wish him success in new business
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post #1142 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:34 AM
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Here's a great business idea for Madshi.

License the MadVR to projector makers... we usually don't hear about it, but a lot of billions of dollars are made via licenses alone with the license holder doing nothing.. and this actually makes even more money..

people don't realise that microsoft gets like $10-15 per smart phone from smartphone makers because of royalties for some of their invention that is used in all smartphones... that translated to billions for microsoft for doing nothing... but of course, their new CEO has a more brilliant idea, in exchange for that license fees, they made the phone makers incorporate or preinstall their office products in their phones.. this gave microsoft an IN to the mobile and cloud services unlike anything we have seen since Google...

I'll say charge from $15 to $100 depending on projector sale price...

Then just do nothing and see the millions roll in...
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post #1143 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
Count me in as interested in the Envy base version. By the way since Madvr are open to suggestion, could you please name the base model anything but base. This device will run MadVr the ultimate video processing software so this will not be basic in any way. Maybe call one the Envy Ultra and the top one the Envy Pro.

I think a lot of people could be interested in the base ...oups I mean the ... Ultra model. The price point of 5.5 (maybe less street) could be reach by a lot of home theater enthusiasms.

But to date we present this model as a non upgradable base model with cheaper equipment. No wonder nobody talk about it. But I am sure in reality this model will be great and with very good quality part. Ok not as good as the top Pro but it’s ok considering price difference.

Once people will start to look at the base (Ultra) model, they will want one. At 24fps a lot can be done on good quality gpu.

So please MadVr hear my suggestions:
- Rename base model to something a lot more sexy. Your MadVr software is the best and deserve to be name with strong adjectives.
- Make the base model upgradable. By charging for the upgrade you would have nothing to lose but that upgrade part will convince a lot more people. HDMI 2.1 is the best exemple. We know it will be there soon so who will pay a lot of money for the Envy to be limited from the start
- Make sure all MadVr functions are available on both models. Why blocking or limiting a functionality. The only difference with both model should be the hardware power and quality. I agree some algorithme may not run at the highest level on the base model but that is to be expected.


Everybody needs is different, and many want to push the Envy in many directions but MadVr is MadVr nothing more nothing less. Keep working on your strength, at the end of the day it is THE reason we want a Envy in our home Theater.

Cant wait to buy mine.
All good points :-)

I also feel that the name "base" does not at all represents what the 5000euros model really is. :-)

That's also why people keep comparing "the lumagen pro" with the "Envy pro". While the fair comparison would be:

Envy base(ultra) vs Lumagen pro.

And even the Envy "base" has more processing power, a better 4k upscaler, and from what I had seen a better dynamic tone mapping than the "Lumagen pro".
(And madVR dynamic tone mapping is still being worked on and further improved).

So looks like a better video processor at the same price.

The envy is not a splitter, but that's not its purpose. Any avr/hdfury can do that.

I agree that the only thing lacking to the "base model" compared to the Lumagen pro is the promise of being upgradable .
Would be nice if they could change that... and the name ;-)

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post #1144 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
I agree that the only thing lacking to the "base model" compared to the Lumagen pro is the promise of being upgradable .
Would be nice if they could change that... and the name ;-)
I would be happy if they´d just change the upgradeability and leave the name as it is.
Why not just remove the "base" from the name? So you have the "Envy" and the "Envy Pro".
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post #1145 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by alps006 View Post
My current PC madVR setup (test build 87) gives me a fantastic picture with rich colors and tons of detail. How much of an improvement Envy would make to this already great picture is really a question. IMO, improvement will definitely be there but it won't be a night and day difference. I will buy the paid version of PC madVR as a support to madshi no matter if it will make a difference or not. Thanks madshi for his great work. and wish him success in new business
.
Probably really no benefit. The ENVY isn't really targetted at madVR users but to those that need to do the same thing to streaming sources and/or cannot build an HTPC.

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post #1146 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post

I agree that the only thing lacking to the "base model" compared to the Lumagen pro is the promise of being upgradable .
Would be nice if they could change that... and the name ;-)
Perhaps it could be minimally upgraded (for example video card only) and perhaps the upgrade fee on the base model is a little steeper. This wouldn't bring it to the same level of performance as the pro model, but instead might bring it to the same level as the base model that's selling in 3-5 years when an upgrade is needed.

Or perhaps it can be setup as that. It's always going to be the base model but when it is time for upgrades the base model graphics card can be upgraded to match whatever the current base model graphics card is so its still not obsolete, but it still performance as the base model. I bet that would satisfy most.

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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Here's a great business idea for Madshi.

License the MadVR to projector makers... we usually don't hear about it, but a lot of billions of dollars are made via licenses alone with the license holder doing nothing.. and this actually makes even more money..
This isn't a licence-able technology for a couple reasons:
1) It's not patented so someone could just reinvent it.
2) Licensing the code directly isn't going to work either as it requires a very specific platform on which to run and specific operating system as well. It's not easily just ported to some projector platform and those devices just don't have the power to run these algorithms. This is high end stuff far beyond what is done in a projector.

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post #1147 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Here's a great business idea for Madshi.

License the MadVR to projector makers... we usually don't hear about it, but a lot of billions of dollars are made via licenses alone with the license holder doing nothing.. and this actually makes even more money..

people don't realise that microsoft gets like $10-15 per smart phone from smartphone makers because of royalties for some of their invention that is used in all smartphones... that translated to billions for microsoft for doing nothing... but of course, their new CEO has a more brilliant idea, in exchange for that license fees, they made the phone makers incorporate or preinstall their office products in their phones.. this gave microsoft an IN to the mobile and cloud services unlike anything we have seen since Google...

I'll say charge from $15 to $100 depending on projector sale price...

Then just do nothing and see the millions roll in...
Your projector does not have the processor power to run this software. They are using a Nvidia 2080ti in these boxes. The likelihood of that kind of processing power being introduced into a projector is close to zero.
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post #1148 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 05:39 AM
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One question regarding "the base is good for 24Hz material, the pro is good up to 60Hz".
What happens if 60hz material is fed to the base? Does it refuse to play (which would be bad) or is it just switching off some functionality (which would be fine for me)?
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post #1149 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 05:49 AM
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I'm pretty sure they mean with all the options cranked. It will definitely be able to support 60hz content. It just might not be able to max out all the algorithms while doing so.

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post #1150 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by malba2366 View Post
Your projector does not have the processor power to run this software. They are using a Nvidia 2080ti in these boxes. The likelihood of that kind of processing power being introduced into a projector is close to zero.
Yikes! With a 2080ti, how are they going to control the heat and noise? Is this unit designed for placement outside of the theater only? Water cooling or at least a vapor chamber should be looked into. Air cooling and a quiet theater just don’t mix.

When you look at the form factor, power and noise produced by an Xbox X with its vapor chamber, is there really a need to make this thing as big as a large 7 channel Krell amp? The Falcon Northwest Pcs small towers and Frag box form factors or the forthcoming PS5 and Xbox X2 form factors will be small, power will be huge, and the units will be on the quiet side. So why have a large Cyberpower/Alienware sized gaming PC case on its side with a nice faceplate slapped on it? It just screams air cooling with many fans. It just doesn’t scream refinement to me. Hopefully I’m wrong.

Why not present all the design specs to a company like Falcon? Then as a sub, Falcon can design the hardware and build the units for madVR in a small, quiet, cool running, and modern form factor.

https://www.falcon-nw.com/index.php/mobile

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post #1151 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I'm pretty sure they mean with all the options cranked. It will definitely be able to support 60hz content. It just might not be able to max out all the algorithms while doing so.

Yep, that´s what i´m expecting (hoping) as well. Just looking for official confirmation from madshi.
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post #1152 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Yikes! With a 2080ti, how are they going to control the heat and noise? Is this unit designed for placement outside of the theater only? Water cooling or at least a vapor chamber should be looked into. Air cooling and a quiet theater just don’t mix.



When you look at the form factor, power and noise produced by an Xbox X with its vapor chamber, is there really a need to make this thing as big as a large 7 channel Krell amp? The Falcon Northwest Pcs and Frag boxes, or very likely forthcoming PS5 and Xbox X2, form factors can be small, power can be huge, and the units van be on the quiet side.

Why have a large Cyberpower/Alienware gaming PC case on its side with a nice faceplate slapped on it? It just screams air cooling with many fans. It doesn’t scream refinement to me. Hopefully I’m wrong.
I asked about water cooling a few pages back and was told they looked into it but it complicates things. They've chosen air cooling and a hefty case.

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post #1153 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 06:11 AM
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Probably really no benefit. The ENVY isn't really targetted at madVR users but to those that need to do the same thing to streaming sources and/or cannot build an HTPC.
This is my big question....Streaming video is compressed not really great video in the first place and does a Envy or even Lumagen make that big of a difference in a not great source. For us JVC owners this is where the comparison with their DTM on streaming vs the other guys will be interesting. For 4K HDR and up-scaling that is a different story we know MadVR is amazing and the Envy I saw at the show is the same.

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post #1154 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 06:11 AM
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I asked about water cooling a few pages back and was told they looked into it but it complicates things. They've chosen air cooling and a hefty case.

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Very, very bad move in my opinion. A vapor chamber addition is not that cost prohibitive. The design is not consistent with the tech and the theater environment the Envy will typically be placed in. This will hurt sales and turn many people off.

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post #1155 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 06:36 AM
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One question regarding "the base is good for 24Hz material, the pro is good up to 60Hz".
What happens if 60hz material is fed to the base? Does it refuse to play (which would be bad) or is it just switching off some functionality (which would be fine for me)?
It will have to disable (a lot of) higher powered algorithm settings to still be smooth. In madVR you have profiles for these things so in ENVY it would be hard coded profiles. To be clear, the 2080TI card cannot max out madVR at 60fps today. So even the $10k pro unit will have to make compromises at that frame rate. Luckily, this isn't where most content lies.

In any case, its still going to work and still look better than without the ENVY in the chain.

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post #1156 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 07:24 AM
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So, just maybe the above examples will give enough of an example so those that have or seen in a H/T NOT a DEMO what's the Real-World difference having either the Lumagen or the new/latest ENVY ???
Keep it simple guys if your going to answer, please so we as laymen can understand your example/examples without all the technical explanations.

Terry
I think to have completely understood your question. My answer to your question(s) will hopefully give you some good reasons to understand why I have actually decided to spend a considerably amount of my money on the Envy. Basic Model btw.

I have read some of your posts in other threads so I know your setup (RS4500 and the calibration by Chad). I guess you are interested in a Lumagen (or an Envy) because other RS4500 owners are using it and recommending it because of better HDR reproduction quality and maybe also because it is useful with calibrations. I think their advice is justified and I have absolutely no objection against that advice or suggestion.

Yesterday a friend of mine called me and I explained him briefly why I am so sure about the Envy beeing a good investment. I had told him about my interest in the Envy already a few days and he could not understand why. He was pretty shocked about the Envy price tag first and probably originally thought that I became nuts now. I have to add that that friend is actually using the same projector and screen like me: a Sony VW885 (VW760) on a rather small screen, 110", 16:9. We are both using a Panasonic Ub9000 as a player. This setups looks really great with all kind of video material. Like a gigantic TV. So this probably about the same like how you would describe your setup. Of course we also watch 4K / HDR material. I had spend a lot of time to optimize picture quality including loading custumn made Arve curves for HDR. So I have absolutely no problems with picture too dim, lost shadow details or blown out highlights. That's probably why he is wondering why I am so interested and keen on that product.

Our situation is quite different compared to another friend of mine who happens to own the same projector but on a much larger screen having less the brightness / Nits on screen than we have (less than half). So for a long time this guy had problems trying to get good HDR playback. He was using madVR on his computer since the start of madVR. Thats how I came in contact with madVR.

For quite some time I was not really that impressed by madVR. But some guys here on AVS forum including madshi were working very hard on it and I noted that it got better and better. These guys are mad about picture quality. These are hardcore enthusiasts and step by step, update by update it got better.... Gradatim conscenditur ad alta: step by step you get to the top ...I rembember one evening when we were comparing picture quality of about 15 movies played either in BD (SDR) or UHD BD (HDR) format in his cinema room. Despite madVR was used at that time the result in his fully optimized setup was such that only in about half of those test movies the HDR playback looked actually better than SDR. It was more or less a draw. This was pretty frustrating for my friend. But eventually this changed somewhen last winter for the much better. Now in each case HDR material looks clearly better than SDR material also on very big screens. The playback looks as good as on our smaller screens just like our optimized Pansonic playback. Like a gigantic TV. Great. That's what madVR can do. And this works for every movie. So you do not need to change anything on your projector settings ( or on the Panasonic) to adopt settings for darker or brighter movies. But madVR was madefor a PC only. I do not like a PC in my living room or in my cinema. Now the Envy is finally a device that is far easier to use than a PC.

What makes madVR so good or different ? What is the reason behind it ? That's technical but still I try to explain ...
One setting in Envy / madVR will work for you for all kind of movies because the madVR program is all the time calculating how it can make best use of the brightness of your projector. It analyses the incoming data and calculates the output by a very smart algorithm. Such that you will always get the optimal brightness output for your projector and best contrast on your screen. MadVR (Envy) will calculate 24 times per second the optimal light output based on the signal it gets. So compared to that it is like my Panasonic does only one (!) for the whole movie. That is dynamic tonemapping versus static tonemapping. Therefore madVR is of course far advanced. So the picture pocessed by Envy (madVR) will look sharper and clearer than processed by any other product on the market.

That is the reason why those guys with the big screens are appreciating dynamic tonemapping so much. But how about smaller screens I hear you saying... My friend and me have also tested madVR in my setup with the much smaller screen. The result was confirming that I had found really good settings with my Panasonic. But madVR (dynamic tonemapping) was clearly better also in my setup. The difference is not subtle. It is clear. It is not as subtle like comparing upscaling quality of a player versus that of a projector. Any lawman will see the difference immediately during normal playback. You do not need to go close to the screen and do pixle peeping. It is like comparing a very good bluray disc like Skyfall to a good DVD. Also with the DVD you see many details and there are usually not too many obvious and disturbing artifacts but with Skyfall you are just very much impressed when you are looking at it using on high quality / high end setup that is properly installed.
By madVR not only highlights became more defined but also the whole picture got punchier and somehow more cleaner. Like the difference DVD vs BD to give you an analogy.

Or in school marks it is IMO like the difference between a "good" vs a "very good" mark. When a pupil gets a "good" this shows he has understood and can handle the subject. With a very good a pupil masters the stuff. That is madVR. And that's why I want it.

Finally I would like to report of another friend of mine. This guy is using a VW5000. He is not short of money. But somehow he is not interested - yet . I am sure this will change. I truly think that it is pretty silly to buy such an expensive projector and not using the best player for it. I am sure he will buy one when I will take my Envy to him to make a demo. People will eventually buy this expensive stuff but they need to see the difference first by comparing. That is why I am saying madVR needs to go out and demonstrate Envy. A 55" OLED at CEDIA in bright light conditions is not allowing this properly.

Finally it is important to note that Envy will not only improve HDR but also SDR playback due to its great 4K upscaling capabilities which are very useful on native 4K projectors. Apple TV, regular TV, DVD .... everything I exspect to look better. Easy connecting all kind of sources to Envy is something that no PC with madVR installed can do. With the Envy I need just to feed it with 1 HDMI cable coming the AVR and I do not need to care about how to feed my PC with various source material.

There is even more that the Envy will be able to do (according to the Info presented at CEDIA). Like black bar detection or support of calibration software incl pattern generator for calibration. But that alone would not trigger me. This is rather a welcome Add On for me.

Last edited by *Mori*; 09-15-2019 at 07:46 AM.
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post #1157 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 07:30 AM
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This is my big question....Streaming video is compressed not really great video in the first place and does a Envy or even Lumagen make that big of a difference in a not great source. For us JVC owners this is where the comparison with their DTM on streaming vs the other guys will be interesting. For 4K HDR and up-scaling that is a different story we know MadVR is amazing and the Envy I saw at the show is the same.

Yes, it absolutely does. I record stuff from my TiVo that's 720p 3mbps compressed to hell and back and madvr makes a very noticeable difference in viewing those sources.
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post #1158 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 07:46 AM
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Very, very bad move in my opinion. A vapor chamber addition is not that cost prohibitive. The design is not consistent with the tech and the theater environment the Envy will typically be placed in. This will hurt sales and turn many people off.

I voiced my concerns on that, as well, but, I accepted the answer madshi gave on this topic and moved on. I don't think it'll hurt sales as much as you think. I can't imagine given the size of the case that it's going to be a big noisy brute. But, the size of the case is not small. That might POTENTIALLY be an issue for SOME, but, these installations into high end theaters probably will not be in the theater room itself anyway in a lot of cases.
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post #1159 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 07:56 AM
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Wouldn't a HTPC lets say with a 1080 and a ENVY base model in a chain come to similar result as just the ENVY pro? Like one of them just doing upscaling and the other optimizations. If that would be the case some of the HTPC users who want to keep their PC might consider it. Could this cooperation between HTPC madvr and ENVY work out effectively?



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post #1160 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
It will have to disable (a lot of) higher powered algorithm settings to still be smooth. In madVR you have profiles for these things so in ENVY it would be hard coded profiles. To be clear, the 2080TI card cannot max out madVR at 60fps today. So even the $10k pro unit will have to make compromises at that frame rate. Luckily, this isn't where most content lies.

In any case, its still going to work and still look better than without the ENVY in the chain.

Not hardcoded. Smart selection based on what madshi said. This point matters. A lot. It will determine what will give you the "best" picture quality for your environment and compromise intelligently where compromise is needed. This point is overlooked and is one of the differentiators between madvr on a PC and envy.
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post #1161 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
I have an analogy I think applies. Most people can tell the difference between a bad bottle of wine and a good bottle . Another smaller percentage can really discern the taste between a good $25 Bordeaux and a $100 Bordeaux. Then you have the .001% of people who have a sophisticated enough palate to actually be able to tell the difference between the $100 bottle and the $1000 or $10,000 Bordeaux. But many affluent people still buy really expensive wine, even if I blind taste tested those people they couldn't tell me which was the $1000 bottle. That is the evolution from DVD TO 4K with Dynamic Tone Mapping done via a video processor. Yes there are people who could tell the difference without being told what the differences are. But just like the expensive wine most people need to have the differences pointed out to them and they convince themselves they can then notice them. Most of them still cannot.

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I follow what you said 100%.
And that's what also I'm thinking about just how much better to the average person will the Lumagen or ENVY really make.
Keep in mind that I do have the RS4500 and it has been Custom-Calibrated.
The H/T is Pitch-Black so an ideal room for a H/T.
I also have the Panasonic UB9000 now.

Thanks for taking the time to reply it's appreciated.

T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I think to have completely understood your question.
My answer to your question(s) will hopefully give you some good reasons to understand why I have actually decided to spend a considerably amount of my money on the Envy. Basic Model btw.

Finally it is important to note that Envy will not only improve HDR but also SDR playback due to its great 4K upscaling capabilities which are very useful on native 4K projectors.
Apple TV, regular TV, DVD .... everything I expect to look better.
Easy connecting all kind of sources to Envy is something that no PC with madVR installed can do.
With the Envy I need just to feed it with 1 HDMI cable coming the AVR and I do not need to care about how to feed my PC with various source material.

There is even more that the Envy will be able to do (according to the Info presented at CEDIA). Like black bar detection or support of calibration software incl pattern generator for calibration. But that alone would not trigger me. This is rather a welcome Add On for me.
Mori,

What really-really gets my immediate attention I highlighted in Blue above.
Maybe and I am saying maybe .........
The New ENVY would be of a noticeable benefit to me and I did not know it would Greatly improve All-Viewing-Sources NOT just HDR.
Also if you see this post do you know if the ENVY is a Stand Alone Box like as an example the Panasonic UB9000 ???
Let me add this to the line above, do you know if a person could buy/purchase the ENVY, set it in it's location, plug in the HDMI cable and then what ???
The what ^^^ I'm wondering is, does it have an Automatic-Setting and then it does it's thing without having a Custom Calibrator Person to actual set it up like I understand you need with the Lumagen ???
It would be nice for the normal end-users if either the Lumagen or the new ENVY was what I think is referred to as, Plug & Play ???
I know if I actually had either product I would not be the one installing it I just simply would immediately PANIC at even considering doing that.
So, with me NOT being the installer I'm wondering when my A/V Dealer sends his Lead-Tech to do the install is it as simple as placing it, turn it on, and selecting Auto ???
Where I am located there are No-Lumagen/ENVY professional installers if BOTH of those products actually require that ???

I think from what I have said above you get where I'm coming from hopefully.
I want and require SIMPLE not A/V gear/components that it takes an electronics expert to actually set them up and even effectively use them.

Thanks so much for taking the time with your in-depth reply.
Terry

Last edited by tigerhonaker; 09-15-2019 at 08:38 AM.
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post #1162 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Thing is you can't create data where data does not exist.. 2k is 2k for 90% of all 4k bluray. You can antialias fine details and make things seem sharper but in the end it's still 2k content..

And for the people complaining about my pixel shifting projector, thing is it still has a higher resolution then 2k..
You actually can create pixels where they don’️t exist. That’️s what upscaling is. Not sure why you’️re even bringing this up.

Epsons pixel shifting really doesn’️t increase resolution. It’️s like ivcs. It just smoothens our the jaggies. It doesn’️t product 4k of individually addressable pixels. Not sure why you are even debating this.
Lol you changed my wording. I said you can't create data aka real resolution. A pixel is just a point of light..

Epsons pixel shifting actually offsets 1080P images at an angle in effect doubling the pixel count.. Not really sure what you mean about not increasing resolution as I never said anything of the sort.. I did state that the pixel shifting solution produces a higher resolution than 2k, which it does..

It doesn't create data but if you feed it a 4k disk which was an upscale of just 2k data, the Epson should be able to display all original actual resolution and detail..

Sure there are techniques to make the images look as though they have more detail then what was really presented to environment from the source.. I have and always stand by the fact that madvr makes the image look better.. I just simply do not believe its worth 5.5 or 10k.

Also people who say the image differences are night and day are simply over reacting and overselling the product..

Also I have more than once stated my opinion. Some don't like it and that is fine.. If you disagree that is fine we can agree to disagree.

Last edited by Justin_Rogers; 09-15-2019 at 09:01 AM.
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post #1163 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I voiced my concerns on that, as well, but, I accepted the answer madshi gave on this topic and moved on. I don't think it'll hurt sales as much as you think. I can't imagine given the size of the case that it's going to be a big noisy brute. But, the size of the case is not small. That might POTENTIALLY be an issue for SOME, but, these installations into high end theaters probably will not be in the theater room itself anyway in a lot of cases.
It’s a niche product as it is, and to cater it to “theaters that have an external equipment room” limits the customer base even further. Regardless, I may be able to discretely place an Envy in the rear of my theater beneath my projector, but that would be fairly close to my seating. Perhaps Madshi could state the db levels and BTU output of the Base and Pro models?

The Base Envy being limited to 24hz is unfortunate. Is this 24hz limitation a realistic concern with the madVR software algorithms relative to 4k bluray and streaming (Amazon, Netflix, VUDU, ATV) on a 5000es projector? Appears to me that not being able to do 60hz will be quite the limitation.

Also is the Envy going to be easier to set up (DTM) than a Lumagen? Are there any simplified presets available where an extensive calibration/set up are not needed?

Last edited by G-Rex; 09-15-2019 at 09:12 AM.
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post #1164 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Perhaps in the future MadVR Labs could consider selling the HDMI capture card along with the MadVR pro License for around $1000. A user could then buy/configure the rest of the hardware themselves.

Support would then come from the existing MadVR community.


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Not only will their license prohibit this, but I can tell you that these captures cards are way expensive costing them way more than $1000. No way you can then buy it for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sd_smoker View Post
My suspicion is that there's probably more money to be made in selling the software and/or licensing proprietary algorithms to other manufacturers, but only time will tell...
This won't be useful. Many people think its just that simple, but the amount of computing power to run these algorithms is simply not available on any other device. The algorithms are tied to specific hardware at the moment also.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
1. Lumagen has built a business on the back of a real need (upscaling) in a time when it was really needed. Don't get me wrong tone mapping is nice but not nearly and important and proper upscaling of 720P contact to a 120 inch screen.
MadVR's NGU AI based upscaling is the best I've ever seen. Upscaled 1080p to 4K is often better done on the fly with madVR than the movie studios UHD from 2K source material. Nothing else has ever taken 1080p and made it look 4K like scaling wise. Some of the better scalers I've seen have definitely improved the original source ever so slightly. With madVR's upscaler, you can often (but not always) get demo worthy upscaled content. It's in a completely different league than Lumagen's upscaler, which is more like a standard bicubic upscale with some anti-ringing applied. I consider the HDR tone mapping far less of a feature than this upscaler. You won't find another like it anywhere outside of madVR.
So from reading the above, can take that you have done a personal comparison between the Lumagen and madVR?

Last edited by Des511; 09-15-2019 at 09:26 AM.
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post #1165 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
The Base Envy being limited to 24hz is unfortunate. Is this 24hz limitation a realistic concern with the madVR software algorithms relative to 4k bluray and streaming (Amazon, Netflix, VUDU, ATV) on a 5000es projector? Appears to me that not being able to do 60hz will be quite the limitation.
No, as madshi said earlier in the thread the base model can do 4K/60, it just can't use the highest quality settings like the pro model.

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post #1166 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 10:15 AM
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All arguments would be moot IF THE ENVY is good.. ie, creates a noticeable difference...

It's expensive and caters to people who really don't care about money. People buy the 870 for $10K more than the 760 just for a lens upgrade which personally after hours of side by side, I see almost no difference (other than an artificial DFO on setting)...

So, if this device creates a larger difference, then it's a no brainer for those people... it'll sell itself! Period!
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post #1167 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
Mori,

What really-really gets my immediate attention I highlighted in Blue above.
Maybe and I am saying maybe .........
The New ENVY would be of a noticeable benefit to me and I did not know it would Greatly improve All-Viewing-Sources NOT just HDR.
Also if you see this post do you know if the ENVY is a Stand Alone Box like as an example the Panasonic UB9000 ???
Let me add this to the line above, do you know if a person could buy/purchase the ENVY, set it in it's location, plug in the HDMI cable and then what ???
The what ^^^ I'm wondering is, does it have an Automatic-Setting and then it does it's thing without having a Custom Calibrator Person to actual set it up like I understand you need with the Lumagen ???
It would be nice for the normal end-users if either the Lumagen or the new ENVY was what I think is referred to as, Plug & Play ???
I know if I actually had either product I would not be the one installing it I just simply would immediately PANIC at even considering doing that.
So, with me NOT being the installer I'm wondering when my A/V Dealer sends his Lead-Tech to do the install is it as simple as placing it, turn it on, and selecting Auto ???
Where I am located there are No-Lumagen/ENVY professional installers if BOTH of those products actually require that ???

I think from what I have said above you get where I'm coming from hopefully.
I want and require SIMPLE not A/V gear/components that it takes an electronics expert to actually set them up and even effectively use them.

Thanks so much for taking the time with your in-depth reply.
Terry
The difference due to improved HDR tonemapping is very obvious to all of us including laymen because better tonemapping means better picture contrast. We note contrast differences better than anything else. Anyone will prefer a correct Gamma 2.2 (or 2.4) to gamma 1.8 or 2.6. This is not a matter of preference like with a "better" wine or food.
For the subject of increased sharpness due to better upscaling: here the differences become typically much smaller and not so obvious because many lack the trained eyes spotting artifacts and also not everybody has the sharp eyes or might also not sitting close enough in order to spot them. I can tell that I had found upscaling done by my projector to be better than that of the Panasonic but not as good as that by madVR. Since this will beneficial to me for many sources I consider it as a real plus for me. However I would not buy the Envy just for that reason. This is just to set those 2 things into perspective against each other.

I understand that the concept of the Envy is such that you still need a player like a Panasonic or Oppo player. It is no stand alone box.
As far as I have understood Envy is designed to be placed inbetween AVR and projector:
Envy is connected on 1 side to the AVR (by a HDMI cable) and on the other side (by another HDMI cable) to the projector. So the AVR is connected to the Panasonic, Apple TV or any other source and the AVR is feeding then the Envy. In other words: the AVR works as a switch. I think that this concept is pretty easy to install and run. Maybe too easy and simple for some.

So I exspect setting up the Envy is far less complicate than a Lumagen and can be done without a calibrator or installer. But since I have not installed it myself yet I can not really tell how simple or complicate it works in reality. It is just my guess. I hope there will be soon a manual in order to judge that matter better. On a personal note I may add that my impression is that Lumagen explanations / instructions are often quite confusing to me despite I have a scientific / technical background having worked many years in parmaceutical research. Therefore I am quick at learning new stuff and can usually set up technical hardware for measurements pretty fast. That's probably the reason why Lumagen products are often sold by calibrators coupled with a calibration.
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Last edited by *Mori*; 09-15-2019 at 10:49 AM.
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post #1168 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 11:53 AM
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Yes, you're missing the point that Dolby have no intention of ever certifying a projector for Dolby Vision since it can never deliver a fixed preset brightness level, which is a requirement of Dolby Vision.
I spoke with a rep from Dolby at CEDIA and they said they have no problem certifying a projector for Dolby Vision.

They said no projector company has come to them to ask for a projector certification yet and that he was going to talk to JVC about it later at the show.

He said its a misconception that they are blocking projectors from DV and that it wasn't true.
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post #1169 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
It’s a niche product as it is, and to cater it to “theaters that have an external equipment room” limits the customer base even further. Regardless, I may be able to discretely place an Envy in the rear of my theater beneath my projector, but that would be fairly close to my seating. Perhaps Madshi could state the db levels and BTU output of the Base and Pro models?

The Base Envy being limited to 24hz is unfortunate. Is this 24hz limitation a realistic concern with the madVR software algorithms relative to 4k bluray and streaming (Amazon, Netflix, VUDU, ATV) on a 5000es projector? Appears to me that not being able to do 60hz will be quite the limitation.

Also is the Envy going to be easier to set up (DTM) than a Lumagen? Are there any simplified presets available where an extensive calibration/set up are not needed?

(Catching up on posts again after being away for a bit so some of this is probably addressed by other people...but just in case)


They did post some db levels earlier in this thread and it was fairly silent but they said not to take those numbers as gospel as it's not finished yet.


I don't know where you got the "base model can't do 60hz" but that's wrong. It can't MAX EVERYTHING OUT at 60hz, but, that doesn't mean "doesn't support 60hz".



It looks like madshi is trying to keep setup VERY simple and let the AI algorithms do the work under the covers, so, I would say it won't be "presets" it'll be automatic tuning. Which is why I challenge the "no 60hz" comment. It'll be auto-tuned to match the hardware under the hood.
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post #1170 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Good point. I might be thinking too much about my own setup. In any case, whether the device which does the HDMI switching is an AVR or a dedicated matrix switch, the underlying idea is the same: Since we can't technically provide more than one HDMI input at this time, there needs to be some other device that performs the HDMI switching.
This is really late as I was busy at CEDIA, but why couldn't you just put an HDMI switch inside the Envy?

Provide the HDMI switch's inputs on the back of the Envy box, and internally wire it's output to your custom HDMI input chip.

You would also use an HDMI switch that you can control via RS232 or similar so that the madVR software can intelligently control which HDMI switch input is being used.
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