madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 40 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1824Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1171 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Killroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ninth Circle of Hell
Posts: 2,448
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I spoke with a rep from Dolby at CEDIA and they said they have no problem certifying a projector for Dolby Vision.

They said no projector company has come to them to ask for a projector certification yet and that he was going to talk to JVC about it later at the show.

He said its a misconception that they are blocking projectors from DV and that it wasn't true.
That rep must either have a legal degree or was very well coached by the Dolby lawyers. He is 100% correct in what he told you but what he did not say was that the "minimum" requirements that Dolby has placed on devices can almost never be achieved by mere consumer, and possibly commercial, projectors. Think about how projectors work and try to figure out what it would require for them to achieve the "minimum" nits that Dolby requires for a DV certification.
Killroy is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1172 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
SirMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 776
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 656 Post(s)
Liked: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
That rep must either have a legal degree or was very well coached by the Dolby lawyers. He is 100% correct in what he told you but what he did not say was that the "minimum" requirements that Dolby has placed on devices can almost never be achieved by mere consumer, and possibly commercial, projectors. Think about how projectors work and try to figure out what it would require for them to achieve the "minimum" nits that Dolby requires for a DV certification.
What are the minimum nits then?

I asked him all that and he said that wasn't an issue.
SirMaster is offline  
post #1173 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Killroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ninth Circle of Hell
Posts: 2,448
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
What are the minimum nits then?

I asked him all that and he said that wasn't an issue.
1,000nits. I am sure they have allowed some lower numbers but that's their published numbers. I believe their "Pulsar" req is 4,000nits.

BTW, I cannot find anything on their specs that makes any distinction for projectors versus direct view requirements so if there is someone please link them to correct me.
Killroy is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1174 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
SirMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 776
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 656 Post(s)
Liked: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
1,000nits. I am sure they have allowed some lower numbers but that's their published numbers. I believe their "Pulsar" req is 4,000nits.

BTW, I cannot find anything on their specs that makes any distinction for projectors versus direct view requirements so if there is someone please link them to correct me.
I was going to say, the iPhone is DV certified and doesn't do 1000 nits. I am sure there are other DV displays as well that are under 1000. Sure, projectors are even less, around 50-150 nits, but he told me that low nits wasn't something that would prevent them from getting certified.
SirMaster is offline  
post #1175 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Killroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ninth Circle of Hell
Posts: 2,448
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I was going to say, the iPhone is DV certified and doesn't do 1000 nits. I am sure there are other DV displays as well that are under 1000. Sure, projectors are even less, around 50-150 nits, but he told me that low nits wasn't something that would prevent them from getting certified.
I have seen mentions that mobile devices are "certified" differently than typical display devices due to their size. That's why I was asking for distinctions between projectors versus direct view display since there is no mentions about them.
Killroy is online now  
post #1176 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 12:38 PM
Senior Member
 
*Mori*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked: 349
Here Richard Litofsky, CEO of madVRLabs, says a few words about setting up the Envy. So according to him it is pretty easy and can be done in 2 minutes. That's about what I would have guessed based on the information I got so far.

G-Rex, Bytehoven, SamuriHL and 1 others like this.
*Mori* is offline  
post #1177 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
G-Rex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 2,458
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked: 763
Change the projector out, add a new source, add new FW with new features, change the screen material... no problem. You are still good to go with no need to fly a calibrator in for additional setup and recalibration. The simplicity of setup is encouraging.

Last edited by G-Rex; 09-15-2019 at 01:38 PM.
G-Rex is offline  
post #1178 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:43 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,467
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12502 Post(s)
Liked: 10127
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Now here is the question:

Could the Envy be used as a gaming machine? What´s the CPU and RAM situation?

Man, would I hate myself owning a 2080ti and not being capable of running video games with ultra settings

At least it would be well worth the +5k$...
Too much lag to use for gaming.
SoulOfUniverse likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1179 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,966
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
I have seen mentions that mobile devices are "certified" differently than typical display devices due to their size. That's why I was asking for distinctions between projectors versus direct view display since there is no mentions about them.

That's great and all but my LG C8 OLED, which hardly qualifies as a mobile device, maxes out at 700 nits. So I don't buy the 1000 nit minimum REQUIREMENT. I can see that for CONTENT, sure. But not for a display.
SamuriHL is offline  
post #1180 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:53 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,467
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12502 Post(s)
Liked: 10127
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
I was expecting Lumagen Radiance Pro pricing for at least the Basic unit. But having only a single HDMI 2.0 input fixed at 18 Gbps is an issue for people that have an older Trinnov Altitude 32 and didn't do the 18 Gbps HDMI 2.0 board upgrade for their own reasons, or have an AVR or pre/pro that's HDMI v1.4. With the Lumagen, you can have, say, an Oppo send HDMI 2.0 video directly to the Radiance Pro, and do an audio only signal to the processor where you don't need HDMI 2. 0 compatibility as such.
It is exactly Lumagen pro pricing, as long as you are comparing apples to apples. The cheapest 4K Lumagen 18Ghz unit has an MSRP of $5,495.
madshi, Manni01 and neo_2009 like this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1181 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SwiftsCreek, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,489
Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked: 2222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Des511 View Post
So from reading the above, can take that you have done a personal comparison between the Lumagen and madVR?
Not Mark, but i have been doing just that...
David Mathews likes this.
woofer is offline  
post #1182 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Killroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ninth Circle of Hell
Posts: 2,448
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
That's great and all but my LG C8 OLED, which hardly qualifies as a mobile device, maxes out at 700 nits. So I don't buy the 1000 nit minimum REQUIREMENT. I can see that for CONTENT, sure. But not for a display.
I am just going by what the Dolby DV certification white-sheet states. Like I said, I am positive that they have lower than 1,000nits displays certified but that's not what they "require" in the their specs. But projectors would take a lot to even reach 500nits so I think they might not allow it go that low.
Killroy is online now  
post #1183 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:58 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,467
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12502 Post(s)
Liked: 10127
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
I agree ...asking for almost double of what you can get fully loaded Lumagen pro realistically , doesn’t make sense .
So from what I understand it doesn’t have dedicated audio out like Lumagen pro ? I input all my video sources into Lumagen and use it for switching and take audio out from Lumagen and send it to my Audio processor’s HDMI-1 . That was you can keep audio and video chains completely separate .
First, you are comparing MSRP to street price. Second you can't get a full 18Ghz Lumagen anywhere close to half the price of the entry level MadVR unit. That would be way below cost of the Lumagen.
Manni01 likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1184 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 01:59 PM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,264
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2639 Post(s)
Liked: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
That's great and all but my LG C8 OLED, which hardly qualifies as a mobile device, maxes out at 700 nits. So I don't buy the 1000 nit minimum REQUIREMENT. I can see that for CONTENT, sure. But not for a display.
It's less than that if you look at the colour volume as a whole - I think they've only got the full saturation colour volume equivalent of a ~400 nit LCD (due to much of the brightness coming from the white subpixel that robs you of matching luminance for high saturation colours.)
bobof is offline  
post #1185 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 02:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,966
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
I am just going by what the Dolby DV certification white-sheet states. Like I said, I am positive that they have lower than 1,000nits displays certified but that's not what they "require" in the their specs. But projectors would take a lot to even reach 500nits so I think they might not allow it go that low.

I'll be blunt here on that. OH WELL. Yet another nail in the coffin that is proprietary closed Dolby Vision. Does it look good? Sure. Does it look better than a properly tuned madvr dynamic tone mapped image using a measurement file? Can't say that it does and I'm able to directly compare the two on my OLED. Bye, Dolby Vision, you'll not be missed. Seriously, projector owners who can get to ~110 nits will love what madvr can do for them. With hardware like the Envy, all the algorithms fine tuned to the highest quality, um, yea.


(I want to be SUPER clear on this...projector owners with LESS than ~110 nits will MAJORLY benefit from the Envy. I just meant that @ ~110 nits you're going to rival most theaters I was NOT suggesting that you NEED ~110 nits at all)
Killroy and BondDonBond like this.

Last edited by SamuriHL; 09-15-2019 at 02:05 PM.
SamuriHL is offline  
post #1186 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 02:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,966
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It's less than that if you look at the colour volume as a whole - I think they've only got the full saturation colour volume equivalent of a ~400 nit LCD (due to much of the brightness coming from the white subpixel that robs you of matching luminance for high saturation colours.)

Yes, I understand that it's not going to be a full 700 nits. I'm just going spec wise since that's what we were discussing in terms of Dolby Vision certification. Real world is a whole different story.
SamuriHL is offline  
post #1187 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 02:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Killroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ninth Circle of Hell
Posts: 2,448
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I'll be blunt here on that. OH WELL. Yet another nail in the coffin that is proprietary closed Dolby Vision. Does it look good? Sure. Does it look better than a properly tuned madvr dynamic tone mapped image using a measurement file? Can't say that it does and I'm able to directly compare the two on my OLED. Bye, Dolby Vision, you'll not be missed. Seriously, projector owners who can get to ~110 nits will love what madvr can do for them. With hardware like the Envy, all the algorithms fine tuned to the highest quality, um, yea.
Completely and wholeheartedly agree.
SamuriHL likes this.
Killroy is online now  
post #1188 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 03:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,212
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked: 3389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Lol you changed my wording. I said you can't create data aka real resolution. A pixel is just a point of light..
Yes you can actually create more resolution. That's what madVR's upscaler does. It creates more resolution that wasn't originally in the image through it's incredible AI trained algorithm. You should research a little about it. It's quite incredible and there's nothing like it elsewhere. It's not just the amount of processing power that makes madVR's upscaling so great. It's also the way the algorithm was uniquely AI trained. Seriously nothing like it.

I may be mis-stating this as it is straight from my memory. But the training was something like hundreds or thousands of 4K images were taken then reduced to 1080p. Then the upscaler was trained by upscaling each 1080p image and comparing the upscaled 1080p image to the original 4K image thousands of times until it got the best result possible. Madshi has outlined this elsewhere a few times it's quite interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Epsons pixel shifting actually offsets 1080P images at an angle in effect doubling the pixel count.. Not really sure what you mean about not increasing resolution as I never said anything of the sort.. I did state that the pixel shifting solution produces a higher resolution than 2k, which it does..

It doesn't create data but if you feed it a 4k disk which was an upscale of just 2k data, the Epson should be able to display all original actual resolution and detail..
Incorrect. It absolutely cannot display "all original actual resolution and detail". Just like JVC's eshift, it doubles the pixels which is *half* of what native 4K offers so right there, 1/2 of the image pixels (resolution and detail as you call it) are discarded. In addition, the pixels are very large and overlap so doubling up the pixels in an angled orientation does not really add detail due to the overlapped pixels. Instead it does a nice job smoothing out the jaggies and giving a nicer looking 4K image than regular 1080p. But it lacks all detail compared to a native 4K projector. Anyone with a native 4K projector easily understands this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Sure there are techniques to make the images look as though they have more detail then what was really presented to environment from the source.. I have and always stand by the fact that madvr makes the image look better.. I just simply do not believe its worth 5.5 or 10k.
Yes those are post processing tricks to add sharpness, detail enhancement etc. MadVR also supports this but it is not necessarily part of upscaling. These options can be enabled/disabled separately. I also like some of those features, but that's a separate discussion. These features, of course, can be fully benefitted from on a pixel shifter like your epson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Also people who say the image differences are night and day are simply over reacting and overselling the product..
Again, it depends on what your screen size is, your distance to that screen, and the capabilities of your projector. Unfortunately, you don't have equipment to make this determination because it for sure is not night and day on a pixel shifting projector. Still improves the image, but not to the point it does on a real 4K projector.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Also I have more than once stated my opinion. Some don't like it and that is fine.. If you disagree that is fine we can agree to disagree.
Unfortunately, your opinion gets loaded with misinformation and incorrect facts which require continually responding. If you want to state your opinion that you think madVR ENVY is not worth $5k or $10k that's great. No one can argue with that. But then when you come in and say things like "you cannot add resolution where there is none", "upscaling differences are subtle and minor", "pixel shifters display all resolution of native 4K" etc. Well that false information just has to be addressed.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.

Last edited by markmon1; 09-15-2019 at 03:11 PM.
markmon1 is offline  
post #1189 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 03:12 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Mahomet IL
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Lol you changed my wording. I said you can't create data aka real resolution. A pixel is just a point of light..
Yes you can actually create more resolution. That's what madVR's upscaler does. It creates more resolution that wasn't originally in the image through it's incredible AI trained algorithm. You should research a little about it. It's quite incredible and there's nothing like it elsewhere. It's not just the amount of processing power that makes madVR's upscaling so great. It's also the way the algorithm was uniquely AI trained. Seriously nothing like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Epsons pixel shifting actually offsets 1080P images at an angle in effect doubling the pixel count.. Not really sure what you mean about not increasing resolution as I never said anything of the sort.. I did state that the pixel shifting solution produces a higher resolution than 2k, which it does..

It doesn't create data but if you feed it a 4k disk which was an upscale of just 2k data, the Epson should be able to display all original actual resolution and detail..
Incorrect. It absolutely cannot display "all original actual resolution and detail". Just like JVC's eshift, it doubles the pixels which is *half* of what native 4K offers so right there, 1/2 of the image pixels (resolution and detail as you call it) are discarded. In addition, the pixels are very large and overlap so doubling up the pixels in an angled orientation does not really add detail due to the overlapped pixels. Instead it does a nice job smoothing out the jaggies and giving a nicer looking 4K image than regular 1080p. But it lacks all detail compared to a native 4K projector. Anyone with a native 4K projector easily understands this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Sure there are techniques to make the images look as though they have more detail then what was really presented to environment from the source.. I have and always stand by the fact that madvr makes the image look better.. I just simply do not believe its worth 5.5 or 10k.
Yes those are post processing tricks to add sharpness, detail enhancement etc. MadVR also supports this but it is not necessarily part of upscaling. These options can be enabled/disabled separately. I also like some of those features, but that's a separate discussion. These features, of course, can be fully benefitted from on a pixel shifter like your epson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Also people who say the image differences are night and day are simply over reacting and overselling the product..
Again, it depends on what your screen size is, your distance to that screen, and the capabilities of your projector. Unfortunately, you don't have equipment to make this determination because it for sure is not night and day on a pixel shifting projector. Still improves the image, but not to the point it does on a real 4K projector.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Rogers View Post
Also I have more than once stated my opinion. Some don't like it and that is fine.. If you disagree that is fine we can agree to disagree.
Unfortunately, your opinion gets loaded with misinformation and incorrect facts which require continually responding. If you want to state your opinion that you think madVR ENVY is not worth $5k or $10k that's great. No one can argue with that. But then when you come in and say things like "you cannot add resolution where there is none", "upscaling differences are subtle and minor", "pixel shifters display all resolution of native 4K" etc. Well that false information just has to be addressed.
There is so much misinformation in here I am not even going to attempt to respond.. Sure dude madvr is magic it's a shame we didnt have it in the 480P days if DVD..
Justin_Rogers is offline  
post #1190 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 03:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
G-Rex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 2,458
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked: 763
So when are the Envy VPs going to be demonstrated to the press and/or reviewers in a large screen projector venue? Q4 is fast approaching and impressions/feedback will be needed for many to take the plunge.

An interview...


Last edited by G-Rex; 09-15-2019 at 04:40 PM.
G-Rex is offline  
post #1191 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 05:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
RickAVManiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,126
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 354 Post(s)
Liked: 453
To be realistic, if the Envy is really release before Christmas I will be impress. Launching a new business involve a lot of things and in the case of the Envy there seem to be still a lot to be finalize and that will take couples mores months to iron out. The Envy team work hard no doubt but some aspect just take time.
RickAVManiac is offline  
post #1192 of 1467 Old 09-15-2019, 11:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,028
Mentioned: 490 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6916 Post(s)
Liked: 6619
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Incorrect. It absolutely cannot display "all original actual resolution and detail". Just like JVC's eshift, it doubles the pixels which is *half* of what native 4K offers so right there, 1/2 of the image pixels (resolution and detail as you call it) are discarded. In addition, the pixels are very large and overlap so doubling up the pixels in an angled orientation does not really add detail due to the overlapped pixels. Instead it does a nice job smoothing out the jaggies and giving a nicer looking 4K image than regular 1080p. But it lacks all detail compared to a native 4K projector. Anyone with a native 4K projector easily understands this.
Some of this is not accurate, or is worded in a way that drastically sells eshift short. The Eshift JVC's and Epsons cannot display 8 millions pixels, that's correct. However, they are not stuck at 2 million either. They display 4 million pixels, which is effectively 3k. In order to do that they are not 'doubling' anything, that term, and the way your post reads sounds like you are assuming that the two sets of pixels are the same that is what would happen if you double, they are not. The correct terminology would be to say that two independant unique frames are sub-sampled from the original and are projected offset from one another, there is actually a highly complex algorithm to do this too, so long as its fed a 4K image in the first place. With 1080p input, its not doing much of anything I would agree there, it just seems to smooth things out...

Thats why there is a huge difference between feeding 1080p and using eshift vs feeding UHD.

You saying it does not add any detail is completely inaccurate. I have tested this in quite ridiculous detail with multiple versions of eshift.

I actually cant believe I have to even say this to you, I know you know this, so why do you post to the contrary? Its only because you tried to tell another user they were incorrect I had to say something.

Also, when Justin said this:

Quote:
It doesn't create data but if you feed it a 4k disk which was an upscale of just 2k data, the Epson should be able to display all original actual resolution and detail..
I am pretty sure he is referring to the finite spacial resolution and MTF captured in the source in the first place. MadsVR however does do an amazing job at reconstructing the lost data when you up-scale though, that's why NGU is so damned good.

Spoiler!
Bytehoven, mikela and dimi123 like this.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves

Last edited by Javs; 09-15-2019 at 11:28 PM.
Javs is offline  
post #1193 of 1467 Old 09-16-2019, 01:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,212
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked: 3389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Some of this is not accurate, or is worded in a way that drastically sells eshift short. The Eshift JVC's and Epsons cannot display 8 millions pixels, that's correct. However, they are not stuck at 2 million either. They display 4 million pixels, which is effectively 3k. In order to do that they are not 'doubling' anything, that term, and the way your post reads sounds like you are assuming that the two sets of pixels are the same that is what would happen if you double, they are not. The correct terminology would be to say that two independant unique frames are sub-sampled from the original and are projected offset from one another, there is actually a highly complex algorithm to do this too, so long as its fed a 4K image in the first place. With 1080p input, its not doing much of anything I would agree there, it just seems to smooth things out...

Thats why there is a huge difference between feeding 1080p and using eshift vs feeding UHD.

You saying it does not add any detail is completely inaccurate. I have tested this in quite ridiculous detail with multiple versions of eshift.

I actually cant believe I have to even say this to you, I know you know this, so why do you post to the contrary? Its only because you tried to tell another user they were incorrect I had to say something.

Also, when Justin said this:

I am pretty sure he is referring to the finite spacial resolution and MTF captured in the source in the first place. MadsVR however does do an amazing job at reconstructing the lost data when you up-scale though, that's why NGU is so damned good.

Spoiler!
Hey I didn't mean that eshift doubles *the same pixels* over each other. I meant that it doubles the pixel count from 2 mil to 4 mil. But it's not quite that good because the pixels are still 1080p sized and overlap. Even so, that's not going to yield "all original actual resolution and detail" from a 4K (8 mil pixel) image. This was in context of comparing madVR's upscaler which Justin finds to be "a small improvement". Are saying that his Epson pixel shifter shows all that madVr's upscaler has to offer and agreeing that he can see all that 4K offers in that pixel shifter? If so then why are people upgrading to native 4K projectors from JVC eshift projectors and losing contrast but finding it a good upgrade?

Also, I feel like the images you posted in your spoiler tags prove my point. Obviously the 4K is the best of the bunch. To me, although not as pleasing looking, the 1080p image looks sharper than the eshift one and in fact, the writing on the car license plate especially is a bit blurrier in the pixel shifted than the 1080p. But the elimination of the pixel grid makes the eshifted picture generally look better and more pleasing. But neither the 1080p nor the pixel shifted image look anywhere close to that 4K one. Just look how much cleaner all the text is in the native 4K one.

Look at the M in "assembly" on the "emergency assembly area" sign. On the 4K you can see |V| but on the other two, the V is almost completely obscured. The pixel shifted V in that M isn't any more pronounced if anything (to me) the 1080p version is more pronounced although not much. The two look more alike than they do like the 4K image, however. The main difference is that without the pixel lines in the way the 4K image look cleaner. As I said, the pixel shifting has done a nice job of removing all the jaggies. But it hasn't added really any detail that I can see - minus the detail you get from the lack of pixel grid noise in the way.
}

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #1194 of 1467 Old 09-16-2019, 01:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,028
Mentioned: 490 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6916 Post(s)
Liked: 6619
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Hey I didn't mean that eshift doubles *the same pixels* over each other. I meant that it doubles the pixel count from 2 mil to 4 mil. But it's not quite that good because the pixels are still 1080p sized and overlap. Even so, that's not going to yield "all original actual resolution and detail" from a 4K (8 mil pixel) image. This was in context of comparing madVR's upscaler which Justin finds to be "a small improvement". Are saying that his Epson pixel shifter shows all that madVr's upscaler has to offer and agreeing that he can see all that 4K offers in that pixel shifter? If so then why are people upgrading to native 4K projectors from JVC eshift projectors and losing contrast but finding it a good upgrade?
We agree here mostly, was just making sure it was clarified...

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Also, I feel like the images you posted in your spoiler tags prove my point. Obviously the 4K is the best of the bunch. To me, although not as pleasing looking, the 1080p image looks sharper than the eshift one and in fact, the writing on the car license plate especially is a bit blurrier in the pixel shifted than the 1080p. But the elimination of the pixel grid makes the eshifted picture generally look better and more pleasing. But neither the 1080p nor the pixel shifted image look anywhere close to that 4K one. Just look how much cleaner all the text is in the native 4K one.

Look at the M in "assembly" on the "emergency assembly area" sign. On the 4K you can see |V| but on the other two, the V is almost completely obscured. The pixel shifted V in that M isn't any more pronounced if anything (to me) the 1080p version is more pronounced although not much. The two look more alike than they do like the 4K image, however. The main difference is that without the pixel lines in the way the 4K image look cleaner. As I said, the pixel shifting has done a nice job of removing all the jaggies. But it hasn't added really any detail that I can see - minus the detail you get from the lack of pixel grid noise in the way.
}
Umm, the UHD one, is an eshift JVC fed a UHD input vs a 1080p input... This is actually an eshift 4 X7000. Its not even my X9500 which has a much better lens.

All images are from the same exact projector. Granted, a native 4k projector does that better, but to me, and it seems to you, the difference is huge when using eshift via a UHD input vs letting it work via 1080p only. It also seems to show you just how much more actual information is gained by using eshift properly vs not...



Eshift 4 vs Eshift 5

Ill stop with the off-topic here. But summary, these projectors certainly take high advantage from MadVR, I feel its MORE necessary with eshift machines than it is with native machines to be frank.

Spoiler!

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves

Last edited by Javs; 09-16-2019 at 01:41 AM.
Javs is offline  
post #1195 of 1467 Old 09-16-2019, 06:03 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,212
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked: 3389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Umm, the UHD one, is an eshift JVC fed a UHD input vs a 1080p input... This is actually an eshift 4 X7000. Its not even my X9500 which has a much better lens.

All images are from the same exact projector. Granted, a native 4k projector does that better, but to me, and it seems to you, the difference is huge when using eshift via a UHD input vs letting it work via 1080p only. It also seems to show you just how much more actual information is gained by using eshift properly vs not...
Oh lol I misread what you posted on those. The eshift 4K image looks tons better than the 1080p one then. Most my experience with eshift is mostly using eshift 5 with 4K input. I remember it being better than 1080p but the real sharpness came from any and all native 4K projectors even the crappy sony 285ES.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #1196 of 1467 Old 09-16-2019, 06:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
BondDonBond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: US
Posts: 901
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 733 Post(s)
Liked: 660
It would be interesting to understand the difference and what one approach (Lumagen) to DTM vs Envy (AI Learning) does. I read Jim's post in the Lumagen thread and he is partially correct that they seem to be defending something that is not available. However where he is wrong is that MadVR has been out for years and the base code and scaling has been there.

But the question would be what are the advantages to Envy approach.

I know. myself included, that the box is ridiculously large, however if I can change out in the future when Nvidia has something like a 4080TI there is a lot of good for upgrade ability.

Honestly both products are good I am sure but it is just a different approach and for different situations. Not sure it makes sense to defend one over the other unless you are only talking DTM and upscaling. They both have a place.

Home Theater: JVC RS2000, Stewart 120" 2:35 StudioTech 130, Panamorph DCR Lens, B&W 802 Nautilus, HTM1, 4-B&W 805's for surround, 4-Martin Logan 22's ceiling speakers ATMOS, 2- PB-16 Ultra Subs, Marantz 8802A, MacIntosh 8207 AMP and Proceed AMP 5, Panasonic 820, Apple TV, XBox One, HTPC with MadVR, Qnap NAS
BondDonBond is offline  
post #1197 of 1467 Old 09-16-2019, 06:25 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,467
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12502 Post(s)
Liked: 10127
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
Not being critical of your technology at all . I Was very intrigued . I have been using Lumagen pro with eight HDMI Ins and 4 outs and all cards being 18 GHz . I input all my video sources into Lumagen and output HDMI audio from Lumagen to Trinnov . That for me works the best . I recently had issues with my Lumagen and have been trying to trouble shoot and decide whether to get it repaired or buy a new one when I incidentally saw this thread yesterday . I have never looked into MadVR before that . The reason I compared to the Pro envy was because , I was using Lumagen’s highest end model for comparison . I understand that Envy pro would have lot more processing power , I haven’t done enough reading into MadVR if it will translate into much better picture in my case ( I use Sony 5000 ES with ISCO DLP 1.25 lens on 16’ wide Screen Excellence Neo AT screen ) . But dedicated Audio only HDMI out from video processor is a must for me . Again will look more into it .
With the Envy placed after the processor, you would gain your on screen info from the processor. The Envy allows you to input the nit brightness for 16:9 without the lens in place and for scope with the lens in place. So HDR brightness would be correct for both situations. It would sure simplify your setup.
tigerhonaker and Manni01 like this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1198 of 1467 Old 09-16-2019, 06:26 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,467
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12502 Post(s)
Liked: 10127
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbochniak View Post
Yes, there is. There are no settings on the new JVC projectors that correctly format 3D for a DCR lens. Will Envy be able to do that?
Yes, this is a problem right now, but the new firmware solves this problem. Anamorphic functions will be available for 1080P 3D.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1199 of 1467 Old 09-16-2019, 06:36 AM
LJG
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LJG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Brookville, NY
Posts: 5,046
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 757 Post(s)
Liked: 480
How much additional cost would be added per additional HDMI input, HDMI output?

Reasons for additional HDMI inputs outputs:

Matrix Switching
Multi-Window Processing
Auto Aspect setting per input
Calibrations Per input
Output resolutions/Source Direct outputs
LJG is online now  
post #1200 of 1467 Old 09-16-2019, 06:36 AM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,264
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2639 Post(s)
Liked: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
It would be interesting to understand the difference and what one approach (Lumagen) to DTM vs Envy (AI Learning) does. I read Jim's post in the Lumagen thread and he is partially correct that they seem to be defending something that is not available. However where he is wrong is that MadVR has been out for years and the base code and scaling has been there.
Is there AI learning on the DTM side? I thought the AI / neural net stuff was limited to the NGU upscaler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
- Dynamic Tone Mapping with unique Highlight Recovery technology
- AI / Neural Network algorithms for upscaling, mosquito noise reduction etc
- 4K Anamorphic Stretch, using AI / Neural Network scaling
bobof is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Video Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off