madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 47 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1381 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Have you tried activating tone mapping in madVR, but still send the video to the OLED as HDR (as in activate the option "output video in HDR format")?

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post. That's EXACTLY how I have it set up. I set a real display nit of 760 with output video in HDR format. This achieves the best picture quality I've seen on my C8. I suspect the C8 is still applying some level of its own tone mapping, but, it's very minimal because the tone mapped image from madvr, plus the modified metadata, are within what the C8 considers its nit range. For me it works VERY well and I'm incredibly pleased with the results. What I was saying is that others disagree with how I have it set up and are doing straight passthrough of HDR. IMO, that's not the way to go, but, to each their own. With the Spears and Munsil UHD, the results I get for 4000 nit and 1000 nit look identical when madvr is tone mapping them to 760 real nit. Personally, I wouldn't go with anything else now that I've got this dialed in.
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post #1382 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
The DCR requires 4096*2160 output (17:9). The Sony projectors do not offer other motion flow than black frame insertion for this format.
Ah ok. Does the Sony do motion interpolation for 3840*2160?

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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post. That's EXACTLY how I have it set up. I set a real display nit of 760 with output video in HDR format. This achieves the best picture quality I've seen on my C8. I suspect the C8 is still applying some level of its own tone mapping, but, it's very minimal because the tone mapped image from madvr, plus the modified metadata, are within what the C8 considers its nit range. For me it works VERY well and I'm incredibly pleased with the results. What I was saying is that others disagree with how I have it set up and are doing straight passthrough of HDR. IMO, that's not the way to go, but, to each their own. With the Spears and Munsil UHD, the results I get for 4000 nit and 1000 nit look identical when madvr is tone mapping them to 760 real nit. Personally, I wouldn't go with anything else now that I've got this dialed in.
Good to hear! How low can I go with the peak nits setting before the result gets worse than pure HDR passthrough? Just wondering which default settings I should use for the Envy. 760 nits is very high, obviously, and not really suitable for projectors.

You do use the "apply target nits selection" option, correct?
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post #1383 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 05:28 AM
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Using Windows 7 and MadVR tells my Sony 760ES when an HDR movie is played. However if I thereafter switch back to SDR, my Sony doens't follow back to SDR and stays at HDR. No problem for me since I programmed around this by switching HDR on and off depending on movie meta data, but will the ENVY fix this? Independant of the OS?

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post #1384 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Good to hear! How low can I go with the peak nits setting before the result gets worse than pure HDR passthrough? Just wondering which default settings I should use for the Envy. 760 nits is very high, obviously, and not really suitable for projectors.

You do use the "apply target nits selection" option, correct?

That's a very good question. I'd have to do some additional testing on the low side. I was originally using 700 nits but we did some testing and the C8 doesn't seem to change the curve until it's above 760. I haven't tried going lower than 700 but maybe I can look at that this weekend and see how low we can go.


Yes, I have the apply target nits selection set.
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post #1385 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ah ok. Does the Sony do motion interpolation for 3840*2160?


Good to hear! How low can I go with the peak nits setting before the result gets worse than pure HDR passthrough? Just wondering which default settings I should use for the Envy. 760 nits is very high, obviously, and not really suitable for projectors.

You do use the "apply target nits selection" option, correct?
I hope you're not too focused on the user that brings the envy home, hooks it up, and absolutely never uses the menu even once and expects good results. How about this. When you ship an envy have a first-time-setup wizard with a few very basic questions. If that's not completed, when the envy boots up, it should come up with an overlay asking for some data. First would be something like your nits value, perhaps it can ask for projector vs tv, and figure out some stuff that way etc. I don't think its too much to expect the user to use the remote and enter a little data. It's one thing to expect a user not good with things to load up the menu and poke around himself. But if the envy asks the user some questions it seems pretty easy.
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post #1386 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I hope you're not too focused on the user that brings the envy home, hooks it up, and absolutely never uses the menu even once and expects good results. How about this. When you ship an envy have a first-time-setup wizard with a few very basic questions. If that's not completed, when the envy boots up, it should come up with an overlay asking for some data. First would be something like your nits value, perhaps it can ask for projector vs tv, and figure out some stuff that way etc. I don't think its too much to expect the user to use the remote and enter a little data. It's one thing to expect a user not good with things to load up the menu and poke around himself. But if the envy asks the user some questions it seems pretty easy.
Yes some standard setup questions will go a long way towards people really loving the Envy

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post #1387 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
Wouldn't a HTPC lets say with a 1080 and a ENVY base model in a chain come to similar result as just the ENVY pro? Like one of them just doing upscaling and the other optimizations. If that would be the case some of the HTPC users who want to keep their PC might consider it. Could this cooperation between HTPC madvr and ENVY work out effectively?

NoTechi
You would limit yourself to unprotected source content like you do today with MadVR. You could not add tone mapping of protected content such as from Netflix and Amazon since the HTPC won't support HDCP 2.2.

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post #1388 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmmm... This comparison image is interesting. How accurate is it? E.g. the colors look quite a bit different. I'm pretty sure that the Envy should produce very accurate colors, though. That makes me wonder if the OLED's tone mapping handles the colors correctly. I've seen many cases where a "simple" tone mapping algo produced more natural-looking results for the weird reason that it actually desaturated colors more than it should. However, the OLED image also seems to have a nicer/better "gamma curve", so to say. Which is not something I can argue about.

Just wondering: For the madVR tone mapping image, did you have the option "output video in HDR format" activated? Did you try it both activated and deactivated?


Have you tried activating tone mapping in madVR, but still send the video to the OLED as HDR (as in activate the option "output video in HDR format")?

The comparison is accurate(as accurate as a phone picture can get) and represent roughly the difference I'm seeing in real life. Tripod pictures with same camera setting in a pure black room.
I think the colors in HDR passthrough looks more natural while in tone mapped SDR, they look darker. I also find the picture sharper with less black crush in passthrough. (TV sharpning set to 0 in all modes).


This was a comparison with ''output video in HDR format" deactivated but I can try to compare with ''output video in HDR format" activated this weekend when i find some free time.
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post #1389 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
Are you talking about the Envy Pro? A DCR is 8.990 $. Can´t follow on this...
The DCR should bring more to the table than just brightness. If the Envy could add 30% brightness then that alone would justify the price...
My problem is that DTM is coming across all platforms so that feature does not really justify it´s price (personally). Time will tell if upscaling, debanding, motion interpolation etc. are on another planet that the Envy will be an essential buy.
If you are paying full MSRP on a DCR lens ( $ 8999.00 ) you aren't doing it right.
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post #1390 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ah ok. Does the Sony do motion interpolation for 3840*2160?

Absolutely. High and low settings (low is my favourite but not available for 4096*2160)!
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post #1391 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
You would limit yourself to unprotected source content like you do today with MadVR. You could not add tone mapping of protected content such as from Netflix and Amazon since the HTPC won't support HDCP 2.2.

The HTTPC would be just for playing movies where you could benefit of having madvr on the HTPC + the Envy. Netflix, Amazon etc. you can use other players so you would take the advantage of Envy also for streaming content. Actually thats what I do today already since the Windows apps cause more trouble then it's woth it and I get 4k HDR with Dolby Atmos just fine from my xbox for streaming content.


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post #1392 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
If you are paying full MSRP on a DCR lens ( $ 8999.00 ) you aren't doing it right.
That wasn´t what I was referring to: Kris said the DCR is cheaper than the Envy. But the Envy base model is only 5.500.-

And the DCR will probably outlast the Envy...
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post #1393 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Yes some standard setup questions will go a long way towards people really loving the Envy

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I agree.

Not to copy Panasonic, but a few basic questions, like if you are using TV (OLED or something else) or projector, at least the Envy would know how to set it's basic settings.

Not eveyone knows exactly how many Nits they have on-screen.
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post #1394 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
That wasn´t what I was referring to: Kris said the DCR is cheaper than the Envy. But the Envy base model is only 5.500.-

And the DCR will probably outlast the Envy...
And I love my DCR lens. I want it all !
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post #1395 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
And I love my DCR lens. I want it all !
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
The HTTPC would be just for playing movies where you could benefit of having madvr on the HTPC + the Envy. Netflix, Amazon etc. you can use other players so you would take the advantage of Envy also for streaming content. Actually thats what I do today already since the Windows apps cause more trouble then it's woth it and I get 4k HDR with Dolby Atmos just fine from my xbox for streaming content.


NoTechi
That is not going to work very well. Envy has only one input. To be able to off load some of the processing to your HTPC and let Envy do the rest means your HTPC would have to be connected to the Envy. There is not a second input on Envy for other sources to run through.
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post #1397 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

The option is already in the Envy menu right now. All we're discussing is the *default* behaviour.

For the default behaviour, we have 2 options:

1) The Envy could do what would bring highest quality in some cases, but could screw up the image completely in other cases.
2) The Envy could do what would bring a modest quality improvement in most (all?) cases, and which should (almost?) never harm.

I think it's wiser to go with 2).
So just to be sure that I am understanding this correctly :

1) this is removing the flag and the user makes sure that the display is using gamma 2.4 and 2020. Envy only does the HDR tonemapping

2) is maintaining the flag and the user sets the display the same way as envy wouldn't exist. So you have a kind of double tone mapping by display and Envy. But since the Envy is involved the tonemappig is improved (DTM) compared to a setup without Envy



is that correct like this ? If yes, then I agree that your idea using option 2 as a default might be better over all. Personally I would then most likely apply still option 1 (after careful evaluation of course )

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post #1398 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
The Spears and Munsil UHD provides a nice way to test it at various nit mastering levels. I suspect when people get their hands on the Envy, they're probably going to drive that UHD through it, as well, just to see what the various mastering nit levels look like. Spoiler alert, if you set the real nit level and have the Envy tone map, they should look identical.
Yes, I have the Spears & Munsil UHD benchmark disc and of course it is about the first thing that I am going to test with the Envy. The scene with the horses in the snow
If it turns out like you write above then this tells me Envy / madVR is doing a incredible good job. Actually what you are write above I consider nothing less than a great compliment for what madVR can do.
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post #1399 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Yes, I have the Spears & Munsil UHD benchmark disc and of course it is about the first thing that I am going to test with the Envy. The scene with the horses in the snow
If it turns out like you write above then this tells me Envy / madVR is doing a incredible good job. Actually what you are write above I consider nothing less than a great compliment for what madVR can do.

That scene is BRUTAL And yes, madvr IS doing an incredible job. Running that scene through the 10000 nit, 4000 nit, and 1000 nit versions all product the same results. madvr is tone mapping it down to 760 nits dynamically (I'm NOT using a measurement file for this use case) tone mapped. This is why I say this is the ONLY way I like to watch my movies anymore. I have a UB820 and Dolby Vision and all that, but, quite frankly I don't really need it. madvr, _*IN MY OPINION*_ is just that good. Now obviously my opinion doesn't count for much and I've only been at the UHD game for a little over a year, but, this is why I upgraded my HTPC to an RTX 2070. The quality we're getting out of madvr is astounding.
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post #1400 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
"Should" is a nice word in display land...

LG reportedly don't allow full panel luminance if the input isn't HDR PQ gamma (I don't have one, this is from another poster who had a Lumagen Pro).. Other displays like Benq LED projectors don't allow wide colour gamut unless they receive HDR PQ gamma. Some other displays like JVC projectors won't auto-switch display modes for SDR2020 signals but will switch display modes for HDR2020 signals, and their default with such a HDR2020 signal is to expect PQ gamma (but at least they do let you set 2.4 gamma).

The topic above all came about as much is being made of the plug and play features, which @madshi expanded upon to say that it should be just as good or better than without Envy (but perhaps not as good as it could be with tweaking). I was giving some real-world examples where the settings that were being suggested as being the defaults - SDR 2.4 gamma 2020 - when sent to several displays would result in an image that would likely be measurably worse by some metrics.

Setting the output to default to HDR gamma 2020 would seem to avoid many of these issues out of the box for the uninitiated, but actually wouldn't likely be what you'd set it to ultimately for high performance, which is why some of the comments above are asking for it to be left as it was expected (sacrificing plug and play for some folk).

I personally don't care either way for myself because I understand enough to change the settings so I get the most out of the display capabilities. But many folk wouldn't know what best to set, so claims of plug and play need testing against real-world examples.
I still don't understand why there should be any difference between an SDR2020 and HDR2020 signal (though, I suppose, technically, there is no such thing as HDR2020, both are really just Rec. 2020 colorspace with HDR using a different gamma curve). Either way, I don't see how there would be different light requirements between the two.

That said, I'm sure there are better video experts out there who may be able to explain it. However, to me, on the face of it, it sounds like if there are many differences in how the units handle "SDR2020" (i.e., non-HDR flagged Rec. 2020) then there's an engineering competency problem somewhere. I say this because, IMO, at the conceptual level at least, Rec. 2020 and Rec. 2100 have been fairly well standardized and I believe the HDMI signal meta-data is sufficient to describe the various formats.
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Did you know some programming languages always evaluate all parts of an "OR" structure? It's completely weird to me!!
*snip*
Sounds like a recipe for disaster -- but I think many languages that didn't short-circuit either do now through the use of new keywords or are relics. Either way, I don't see any reason it'd be necessary to bypass short-circuiting, unless the code is side-effect riddled garbage. However, I can certainly see cases where short-circuiting is completely necessary -- I'm sure every C-coder has written "if (a && *a <expression>)" which would blow up pretty good without short-circuiting.
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post #1401 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
That scene is BRUTAL And yes, madvr IS doing an incredible job. Running that scene through the 10000 nit, 4000 nit, and 1000 nit versions all product the same results. madvr is tone mapping it down to 760 nits dynamically (I'm NOT using a measurement file for this use case) tone mapped. This is why I say this is the ONLY way I like to watch my movies anymore. I have a UB820 and Dolby Vision and all that, but, quite frankly I don't really need it. madvr, _*IN MY OPINION*_ is just that good. Now obviously my opinion doesn't count for much and I've only been at the UHD game for a little over a year, but, this is why I upgraded my HTPC to an RTX 2070. The quality we're getting out of madvr is astounding.


Couldn’t agree more .. the only way to watch HDR movies is by using MadVR.




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post #1402 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I still don't understand why there should be any difference between an SDR2020 and HDR2020 signal (though, I suppose, technically, there is no such thing as HDR2020, both are really just Rec. 2020 colorspace with HDR using a different gamma curve). Either way, I don't see how there would be different light requirements between the two.
They are just design decisions by the display manufacturer.

Technically for a standards focussed display in SDR gamma there is no reason for it to be able to output much over 100nits D65, but the brightness wars mean that most TVs in SDR mode can do much more than that. LG just decided not to expose full panel capabilities when they are in SDR mode, reserving it for when they receive a PQ gamma signal.

Similarly for SDR2020 vs WCG - from what I understand there aren't actually significant SDR2020 content sources (as opposed to devices converting to it), so while annoying for using external tone mapping solutions that would prefer to output SDR2020, there isn't really an obvious reason to support it well. UHD disc, for example, is either SDR709 or HDR2020.

The kind of things above - that weren't obvious to you and don't have an obvious explanation, but just are "the way these things are" - are examples of situations where a good pro calibrator is clearly worth the money as without that knowhow you could be watching something well below par.

It's hard to imagine a true plug and play system that could provide ways to deal with the above and other situations. I can think of a couple of ways that you could provide useful optimisation and prompting to the end user (even possibly display settings auto-optimisation and / or control) but they'd all be fairly significant bits of work.
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post #1403 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
LG just decided not to expose full panel capabilities when they are in SDR mode, reserving it for when they receive a PQ gamma signal.

Twist the knife a little more. Yea, that's exactly right. I recall someone measuring theirs if I'm not mistaken and with the OLED and brightness cranked in SDR mode, I think they were somewhere around 400 nits. Not BAD by any means, but, falls short of the ~700 or so these displays can drive in HDR mode. And who wants to calibrate their brightness when switching between true SDR upscaled sources vs HDR tone mapped SDR sources...that gets old really quick. So in my case I chose to go with HDR output for madvr tone mapping. Others disagree with that decision so I don't think there's going to be an easy way to "default" this and please everyone. Yes, they can go change it. But, talking defaults, it's a difficult issue.
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post #1404 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
That is not going to work very well. Envy has only one input. To be able to off load some of the processing to your HTPC and let Envy do the rest means your HTPC would have to be connected to the Envy. There is not a second input on Envy for other sources to run through.
This could be solved by having an option within the Envy to have multiple settings. Then you could switch either manual or even better automatic by somehow identifying the input source. If this is not possible manual would be fine. You would get the same automation if you could control the Envy manual settings e.g. by a harmony remote. E.g. select HTPC on the harmony control would activate the Envy HTPC settings and switch all other devices as required for HTPC watching. Same for other sources. My guess is Envy will have harmony control support wouldn‘t it since you don‘t want to wake up the Envy separately to all the other electronic gadgets.

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post #1405 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
They are just design decisions by the display manufacturer.

Technically for a standards focussed display in SDR gamma there is no reason for it to be able to output much over 100nits D65, but the brightness wars mean that most TVs in SDR mode can do much more than that. LG just decided not to expose full panel capabilities when they are in SDR mode, reserving it for when they receive a PQ gamma signal.

Similarly for SDR2020 vs WCG - from what I understand there aren't actually significant SDR2020 content sources (as opposed to devices converting to it), so while annoying for using external tone mapping solutions that would prefer to output SDR2020, there isn't really an obvious reason to support it well. UHD disc, for example, is either SDR709 or HDR2020.

The kind of things above - that weren't obvious to you and don't have an obvious explanation, but just are "the way these things are" - are examples of situations where a good pro calibrator is clearly worth the money as without that knowhow you could be watching something well below par.

It's hard to imagine a true plug and play system that could provide ways to deal with the above and other situations. I can think of a couple of ways that you could provide useful optimisation and prompting to the end user (even possibly display settings auto-optimisation and / or control) but they'd all be fairly significant bits of work.
I...kind of...agree with what you're saying. But, there is still no such thing as "SDR2020" and "HDR2020"; Rec. 2020 is the colorspace and Rec. 2100 defines the optical-transfer functions for Rec. 2020 when flagged as HDR. But, it's all Rec. 2020. Moreover, WCG comes with that because the color primaries of Rec. 2020 are outside Rec. 709 (thus, it's "wider") -- there is no "SDR2020 vs. WCG", Rec. 2020 is WCG.

I guess my real question is, can Rec. 2020 hit all the same colors as Rec. 2100 (HDR flagged Rec. 2020) with the same intensities? If so, then both Rec. 2020 without HDR and Rec. 2020 with HDR need the same amount of light and thus should put the projector in the same HDR-like mode. If not, then I guess I can understand why they don't, but then I have no idea how something could ever hope to emit a very bright tone-mapped picture without using the HDR flags -- and it should be possible to do so within the Rec. 2020 color-space.

I suppose there's also the RGB, YCbCr, and ICtCp color representations, of which the latter is only defined under Rec. 2100. And, maybe that's another fly in the ointment, because maybe it's not possible to hit the entire HDR luma range with YCbCr in Rec. 2020 without Rec. 2100. Maybe it's not even possible in RGB -- I mean, there are only 10bits of each color primary to represent every possible value in RGB...so, you know, just 1,073,741,824 different colors in full-range 10bit RGB (less in limited range where certain values are reserved for below-black, above-white, and timing).

Ugh...this whole thing, lol.

If I'm being honest, my guess is the "best" format to supply is ICtCp in Rec. 2020 color-space wrapped in Rec. 2100 "HDR container" -- any device take that and "accurately" reproduce it, lol?
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post #1406 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmmm... This comparison image is interesting. How accurate is it? E.g. the colors look quite a bit different. I'm pretty sure that the Envy should produce very accurate colors, though. That makes me wonder if the OLED's tone mapping handles the colors correctly. I've seen many cases where a "simple" tone mapping algo produced more natural looking results for the weird reason that it actually desaturated colors more than it should. However, the OLED image also seems to have a nicer/better "gamma curve", so to say. Which is not something I can argue about.
Just wondering: For the madVR tone mapping image, did you have the option "output video in HDR format" activated? Did you try it both activated and deactivated?
Have you tried activating tone mapping in madVR, but still send the video to the OLED as HDR (as in activate the option "output video in HDR format")?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
The comparison is accurate(as accurate as a phone picture can get) and represent roughly the difference I'm seeing in real life. Tripod pictures with same camera setting in a pure black room.
I think the colors in HDR passthrough looks more natural while in tone mapped SDR, they look darker. I also find the picture sharper with less black crush in passthrough. (TV sharpning set to 0 in all modes).


This was a comparison with ''output video in HDR format" deactivated but I can try to compare with ''output video in HDR format" activated this weekend when i find some free time.
passthrough vs ''output video in HDR format" 760nits
it looks pretty much the same in real life and not much difference with the screenshot as well. -----> https://slowpics.org/comparison/937c...1-f8c0644bb88a

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post #1407 of 1467 Old 09-20-2019, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I...kind of...agree with what you're saying. But, there is still no such thing as "SDR2020" and "HDR2020"; Rec. 2020 is the colorspace and Rec. 2100 defines the optical-transfer functions for Rec. 2020 when flagged as HDR. But, it's all Rec. 2020. Moreover, WCG comes with that because the color primaries of Rec. 2020 are outside Rec. 709 (thus, it's "wider") -- there is no "SDR2020 vs. WCG", Rec. 2020 is WCG.

I guess my real question is, can Rec. 2020 hit all the same colors as Rec. 2100 (HDR flagged Rec. 2020) with the same intensities? If so, then both Rec. 2020 without HDR and Rec. 2020 with HDR need the same amount of light and thus should put the projector in the same HDR-like mode. If not, then I guess I can understand why they don't, but then I have no idea how something could ever hope to emit a very bright tone-mapped picture without using the HDR flags -- and it should be possible to do so within the Rec. 2020 color-space.

I suppose there's also the RGB, YCbCr, and ICtCp color representations, of which the latter is only defined under Rec. 2100. And, maybe that's another fly in the ointment, because maybe it's not possible to hit the entire HDR luma range with YCbCr in Rec. 2020 without Rec. 2100. Maybe it's not even possible in RGB -- I mean, there are only 10bits of each color primary to represent every possible value in RGB...so, you know, just 1,073,741,824 different colors in full-range 10bit RGB (less in limited range where certain values are reserved for below-black, above-white, and timing).

Ugh...this whole thing, lol.

If I'm being honest, my guess is the "best" format to supply is ICtCp in Rec. 2020 color-space wrapped in Rec. 2100 "HDR container" -- any device take that and "accurately" reproduce it, lol?
I think you're really not understanding the difference between a technical ideal and an actual implementation in a display.

The SDR2020 vs WCG comment isn't pitting SDR2020 and WCG against each other (I clearly know what WCG is and that SDR2020 does have WCG) - it is relating to a particular display which I've mentioned a couple of times. If you send a BENQ LED projector (which has native gamut that can hit what would be termed WCG - close to 100% of P3) content as SDR2020 (ie 2020 with power law gamma) then the primaries the projector allows you to hit are narrower than if you send it REC2020 with PQ gamma - it has some unavoidable gamut management. It's an implementation detail of what BENQ have decided to do - they've decided that the only input they'll map into those wide native primaries has to be presented with PQ gamma. It's arguably a bug, but it is the actual reality of that display.

SDR2020 (ie 2020 with power law gamma) has no guarantee to be able to represent all the same colours (where you're defining a colour as xyY - ie chroma + luma) on a display as something sent as 2020 with HDR PQ gamma because of the above relating to the primaries, and also because SDR power law gamma is relative to peak white, and peak white is colloquially defined as "whatever the manufacturer God-damn wants it to be allowed to be for that input mode".

But if you defined the output from SDR2020 and HDR2020 input signals as having the same peak white and same primaries then ignoring differences in where each exact integer numeric colours end up in the volume because of the differences in gamma curve, the colour volume should be the same - they represent the same colour volume. The thing is there is no guarantee that a display presented with SDR2020 instead of HDR2020 will use either the same peak luminance (eg LG OLED) or same saturation primaries (eg BENQ LED).

You need to understand this is not a standards matter, it is an implementation matter, and what a video processor has to deal with is the reality of the products it will actually be interfaced to, and not to some ideal "If I send it 2020 with 2.4 power gamma it should give me the panel's full peak white and widest native gamut because that is what would happen in an ideal world".
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post #1408 of 1467 Old 09-21-2019, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I recall someone measuring theirs if I'm not mistaken and with the OLED and brightness cranked in SDR mode, I think they were somewhere around 400 nits. Not BAD by any means, but, falls short of the ~700 or so these displays can drive in HDR mode.
I think if you manage to get 350 nits in SDR with 10% white, you are lucky. But even then the more aggressive ABL dimming algos kick in, ruining everything even worse than the enhancements you looked for in the first place.
Maybe you refer to a person, who accidentally disabled "HDR module" in Service Menu and got only 400 nits in HDR mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmmm... This comparison image is interesting. How accurate is it? E.g. the colors look quite a bit different. I'm pretty sure that the Envy should produce very accurate colors, though. That makes me wonder if the OLED's tone mapping handles the colors correctly. I've seen many cases where a "simple" tone mapping algo produced more natural looking results for the weird reason that it actually desaturated colors more than it should. However, the OLED image also seems to have a nicer/better "gamma curve", so to say. Which is not something I can argue about.

Just wondering: For the madVR tone mapping image, did you have the option "output video in HDR format" activated? Did you try it both activated and deactivated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
The comparison is accurate(as accurate as a phone picture can get) and represent roughly the difference I'm seeing in real life. Tripod pictures with same camera setting in a pure black room.
I think the colors in HDR passthrough looks more natural while in tone mapped SDR, they look darker. I also find the picture sharper with less black crush in passthrough. (TV sharpning set to 0 in all modes).

This was a comparison with ''output video in HDR format" deactivated
Yes, that's how SDR tonemapped images works. Here there *is* a clear, visible difference between the use cases.
So, with an HDR capable TV display with high nits (~700) there's no point going for SDR tonemapped image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
My understanding was that the latest LG OLEDs are clever enough to disable their tone mapping if the incoming signal is within the OLED's luminance capability. Is that not true? If it's true, then letting madVR tone map and then output the tone mapped image as HDR but with a proper metadata information set (indicating a peak luminance which is within the OLED's capability) should work reasonably well?
I can only say the following regarding to recent LG TVs (2017-2019): unfortunately it's not true, the tonemapping of the TV can't be disabled.

A small technical info:
- LG OLEDs have 3 tone curves based on the HDR data (here is which madvr settings trigger which, thanks to @jk82 )
-- the one that belongs to 100-760 nits in madvr is the less aggressive, but it still applies to the image
- to make it worse, they have at least (!) 3 ABL dimming algos - only 1 can be disabled in Service menu - that can dim the image any time (in the best case it's even unnoticable, worst case it's clear that dimming happened)
-- meaning, no matter what nit settings you set in madrv, the TV can/will alter the image any time
- they have their own dynamic tonemapping (from 2018, it's available in PC mode as well), that I like pretty much

Use cases with HDR output:
- 1. passthrough + LG's DTM is off
- 2. madvr's DTM + LG's DTM is off
- 3. passthrough + LG's DTM is on

As I mentioned above, we tested 1. and 2. here with 8 (!) videos (there's no point to apply the TV's DTM on top of madvr's), 2 results are here and here.

I short, there are only small (unnoticable in real playback) differences between the 2 here and there, but (unfortunately) nothing groundbraking.

Note that nobody tested the above videos who stated the opposite results, let alone mentioning reproducible timestamps.

In summary, using an LG OLED:
- there are big differences between:
-- "SDR tonamepped image" vs "passthrough + LG's DTM is off"
-- "passthrough + LG's DTM is off" vs "passthrough + LG's DTM is on"
- there are only small differences between: "passthrough + LG's DTM is off" vs "madvr's DTM + LG's DTM is off"

So, I'd say who state the opposite the one only experiencing placebo effect IMO it's a waste of energy.

The good news is that SDR 720p/1080p to 4k NGU upscalings (both chroma and luma) are gorgeous in PC mode!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
passthrough vs ''output video in HDR format" 760nits
it looks pretty much the same in real life and not much difference with the screenshot as well. -----> https://slowpics.org/comparison/937c...1-f8c0644bb88a
Yes, exactly like our findings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
How low can I go with the peak nits setting before the result gets worse than pure HDR passthrough? Just wondering which default settings I should use for the Envy. 760 nits is very high, obviously, and not really suitable for projectors.
I'll try out later and report back.
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post #1409 of 1467 Old 09-21-2019, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
That is not going to work very well. Envy has only one input. To be able to off load some of the processing to your HTPC and let Envy do the rest means your HTPC would have to be connected to the Envy. There is not a second input on Envy for other sources to run through.
It would work just fine. You'd use one of those AVR type devices. I'm sure you've heard of them Envy connects between AVR and projector. All those other sources also connect to that AVR thingamajig and everything works fine.
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post #1410 of 1467 Old 09-21-2019, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post

So, I'd say who state the opposite the one only experiencing placebo effect IMO it's a waste of energy.
As I've said before we clearly disagree on this point and that's fine. Applying madvr's tone mapping while keeping the c8 in its least aggressive curve is far more than a placebo effect. With straight passthrough you're allowing these c8 to use the more aggressive PQ curves, which if you believe matches what madvr is doing, so be it. I do not agree with that assertion.

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