madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 1520 Old 09-23-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Not to get too far off topic here, although I think this discussion ultimately could impact Envy, but, there are "SDR purists" who believe 0-100 nits should never be touched vs "SDR maybes" who believe that when it makes sense, e.g. keeping shadow detail, then it SOMETIMES makes sense to mess with 0-100 nit range.

Yes but this was about darkerning the SDR range to leave more headroom for highlights vs leaving it untouched and is only relevant to projectos because of the low birghtness output. It's not about brightening up the SDR range for no reason like LG DTM would do. On an Oled TV with like 700 nits there is absolutely no reason to mess with the 0-100 nits range.
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post #1442 of 1520 Old 09-23-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Yes but this was about darkerning the SDR range to leave more headroom for highlights vs leaving it untouched and is only relevant to projectos because of the low birghtness output. It's not about brightening up the SDR range for no reason like LG DTM would do. On an Oled TV with like 700 nits there is absolutely no reason to mess with the 0-100 nits range.

Yes, I agree. We have a lot of room to play with on our OLED screens using HDR output. However, for a projector owner with say ~110 nit max (if they're lucky) there's definitely going to be some kind of compression of the SDR range which can lead to shadow detail loss. I suppose the Envy can judge what to do based on the real display nits entered by the customer. But for us with regard to LG's DTM, I'll have to look at what quietvoid is saying about highlight details, but, even so, it'd have to be a super compelling difference for me to want to turn that on. And if there's that big of a difference in highlight detail, then something is going very wrong with madvr's tone mapping IMO. With highlight recovery turned on, it shouldn't be losing that much highlight detail vs what LG is able to bring out with their DTM.
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post #1443 of 1520 Old 09-23-2019, 05:10 PM
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@quietvoid is 100% correct. There is a NOTICEABLE difference in highlight detail with LG DTM on vs with it off. Well this has now made me depressed. Thanks for that. LOL My choice is overly bright SDR range vs loss of highlight detail. And the loss really is noticeable. I'll just go pout in the corner now.
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post #1444 of 1520 Old 09-23-2019, 05:22 PM
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Something posted a few pages back, of which many have been talking about privately. Call me old school, but my (and many others) order of preference is vastly different than some here, and may be helpful to the lurkers.

I believe in building a rock solid foundation first, before I get to the frosting on the cake, which is exactly what I have done in my theater and have zero regrets.

1) Get the best projector I can buy/afford that matches up with the biggest screen I can accommodate with the best lens (glass). The ability to light up a properly large screen is monumental. Start with a dim image then it’s a never ending battle, that is rarely winnable. I hate nothing more than being behind the ansi lumens eight ball (or the ANSI contrast eight ball for that matter). Having a bright image on too small a screen with many common seating distances solves one, but creates another, that has a way of eating at you once the mistake is acknowledged. DTM, improved scaling, sharpening ability, calibration ability etc.. or not.... size and proper brightness trumps everything to my eyes and is the building block for a realistic and immersive theater experience.

2) Next, add a DCR type lens if feasible to maximize brightness and resolution (unfortunately in my theater the Paladin is not feasible). This I, and many others, prioritize over a VP.

3) Next up, the frosting... if budget permits, add a VP such as an Envy or Lumagen with high quality DTM to assist in producing a brighter HDR image to all sources. AR control is just another perk to add instantaneous aspect control, and limit wear and tear on the motorized lens assembly for memory positions. Beyond that all other VP features are great to have: upscaling, debanding, madVR motion, sharpening etc...

4) Finally, do a 3d LUT full calibration... but that’s a separate matter of which I have not focused on as yet, but may at some point. For now, I am quite confident the Envy will get me where I want to go (at least initially) without breaking a sweat. To me, that matters. I’m not saying the benefits of professional calibration are not beneficial as I have had it done on 2 former Sony projectors, but the order of an expensive full professional calibration comes AFTER the above checklist is completed. To put it before or in lieu of purchasing the proper hardware for a theater, in the first place is nothing short of building a glass house.

So that’s my order of preference. All day long...

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post #1445 of 1520 Old 09-23-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm pretty sure this is Windows 7 specific. It might even be possible for me to fix that, but it's hard to do without having a Windows 7 PC available, anymore.
OK, my question was if I were to put an Envy in my Windows 7 chain, would the Envy solve this problem? So would the Envy tell my Sony to switch between HDR and back to SDR based on meta data received from my Windows 7 HTPC?
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post #1446 of 1520 Old 09-23-2019, 06:00 PM
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OK, my question was if I were to put an Envy in my Windows 7 chain, would the Envy solve this problem? So would the Envy tell my Sony to switch between HDR and back to SDR based on meta data received from my Windows 7 HTPC?
I’m on Windows 7 with MadVR and have the same issue with HDR not switching back to SDR after stopping movie playback on my JVC RS540. I have a heck of a time getting my PJ out of HDR mode when this happens. Sounds like Madshi doesn’t have access to Windows 7 PC to work on and validate a fix (if possible). I’m guessing the solution for you and me is Windows 10? Wouldn't think the Envy would make a difference.
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post #1447 of 1520 Old 09-23-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
I’m on Windows 7 with MadVR and have the same issue with HDR not switching back to SDR after stopping movie playback on my JVC RS540. I have a heck of a time getting my PJ out of HDR mode when this happens. Sounds like Madshi doesn’t have access to Windows 7 PC to work on and validate a fix (if possible). I’m guessing the solution for you and me is Windows 10? Wouldn't think the Envy would make a difference.
I Work around it by giving an rs232 command that simply turns off HDR and the same goes for turning it back on because I read the metadata from the movies myself and decide if HDR needs to be on. I even read the nits and use HDR Reference for 1000 nits and below and HDR10 for anything above.

I am not sure if the Envy could alter the meta data stream to the projector so it would react correct with the projector set at HDR Auto. I would certainly hope so but the question still stands. I am not expecting a fix for W7 though.
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post #1448 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
IMHO, if you have a display that supports it, for most current content it would be to output DCI-P3 with either power law gamma 2.4, or native gamma adjusted via 1D/3DLUT to 2.4. There are reasons why if you can you might prefer to leave the display in its native gamma (like the wild gamma for the JVC units without autocal correction) and do the gamma adjustment to 2.4 in the 1DLUT/3DLUT.

By keeping in DCI-P3 you have maximal utilisation of the bits available in yous chosen output space between the processor and the display - using 2020 when your display is incapable of reaching it is a waste. Doing gamma correction on a JVC outside of the display in the 1D or 3DLUT allows you to use a much better probe than the JVC autocal supports, and avoids correcting the greyscale twice (once internally in the display, a second time in the 1D/3DLUT).

I don't know how many displays support the above. You can do it on JVC projectors without too much difficulty, and it's how I currently calibrate mine via my Lumagen.
I agree with the most part except the parts in bold.

With madVR (and Envy unless that changes by the time it's released. which is unlikely AFAIK) you have to target 2.2 if you use a 3D LUT, because that's what madVR expects internally. Your display baseline can be anything you want, but the 3D LUT should be generated with a 2.2 target. It's counter-intuitive for bat cave owners, but that's how to get accurate tonemapping from madVR with an SDR 3D LUT. I discussed this with madshi on a few occasions, and it might change in the future, but at the moment that's how it should be done.

Not saying the following for you but for others reading this, it's important to realize that because PQ is absolute, the gamma target you specify as a baseline for the display or for the SDR 3D LUT doesn't make any difference. A display calibrated to 2.2 or 2.4 will produce the same results when tonemapping to it if you tell the truth to madVR (in the calibration tab, for the "this display is calibrated to) when not using a 3D LUT (assuming the display is exactly calibrated to what you tell madVR it is). But with a 3D LUT, you don't have the choice. The baseline can be anything you want, but the target of the SDR DCI-P3/BT2020 3D LUT has to be 2.2 because that's the input level that madVR is expecting. Of course, you can lie to madVR to get results you prefer, but the tonemapped curve will not be correct.
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post #1449 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I agree with the most part except the parts in bold.

With madVR (and Envy unless that changes by the time it's released. which is unlikely AFAIK) you have to target 2.2 if you use a 3D LUT, because that's what madVR expects internally. Your display baseline can be anything you want, but the 3D LUT should be generated with a 2.2 target. It's counter-intuitive for bat cave owners, but that's how to get accurate tonemapping from madVR with an SDR 3D LUT. I discussed this with madshi on a few occasions, and it might change in the future, but at the moment that's how it should be done.

Not saying the following for you but for others reading this, it's important to realize that because PQ is absolute, the gamma target you specify as a baseline for the display or for the SDR 3D LUT doesn't make any difference. A display calibrated to 2.2 or 2.4 will produce the same results when tonemapping to it if you tell the truth to madVR (in the calibration tab, for the "this display is calibrated to) when not using a 3D LUT (assuming the display is exactly calibrated to what you tell madVR it is). But with a 3D LUT, you don't have the choice. The baseline can be anything you want, but the target of the SDR DCI-P3/BT2020 3D LUT has to be 2.2 because that's the input level that madVR is expecting. Of course, you can lie to madVR to get results you prefer, but the tonemapped curve will not be correct.
2.4 came from @madshi himself in a post. It raised an eyebrow from me as I'm not that familiar with madVR but I am aware of the 2.2 gamma default, but I wasn't going to question it as I guess he knows

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
By default, the Envy outputs BT.2020 with a power gamma of 2.4, with the HDR flag cleared. This is to ensure that the downstream devices don't add their own tone mapping on top.
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post #1450 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
2.4 came from @madshi himself in a post. It raised an eyebrow from me as I'm not that familiar with madVR but I am aware of the 2.2 gamma default, but I wasn't going to question it as I guess he knows
Yes, but madshi's statement has got nothing to do with using a 3D LUT

By default, the Envy has no 3D LUT loaded, so it makes sense to use a "this display is already calibrated to" gamma 2.4, as this is the most likely situation for an Envy user (although the default will probably change to HDR now if I followed correctly, not to SDR 2.4).

I was talking specifically about the gamma target of a 3D LUT, which is what you specifically referenced in your post. This is why I specifically mentioned the parts in bold, i.e. those about using a 3D LUT. In this case, you're not using the "Your display is already calibrated to" and specify a gamma, you're using the "This display uses a 3D LUT for calibration" option, and you can't select the gamma target. As madVR has no way to know, with the current LUT format, which target was used, the convention is to use 2.2. You were recommending a 2.4 gamma in that case, and that wasn't correct. You have to specify a 2.2 gamma for the target of the 3D LUT if you want madVR's tone mapping to be correct when using a 3D LUT to correct the SDR P3/BT2020 calibration.

The display baseline can be calibrated to whatever gamma you like (so for example you could set it to 2.4 so that when you don't use a 3D LUT with madVR it gives good results with say the SDR BT2020 output of a standalone UHD Bluray player, which will target 2.4) , but the 3D LUT target should be 2.2 as that is, at the moment, what madVR expects internally when an SDR LUT is used with its HDR to SDR tonemapping.
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post #1451 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
"passthrough + LG's DTM is off" vs "passthrough + LG's DTM is on"
Which is better?
It's a personal preference as you see above, but I personally like LG's DTM on (with all its flaws).

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Did you test with The Meg or with the UHD HDR Benchmark test video? E.g. those horses in the snow? I can't imagine those looking anything close to decent with static tone mapping?
No, I didn't test with the UHD HDR Benchmark test video since I don't have it. As I said, there are small differences but nothing big. See examples posted above.


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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Why not testing:
- 4. madVR's DTM + LG's DTM?

Maybe LG's DTM is clever enough to disable tone mapping if madVR outputs a low enough "peak" metadata number? Maybe that only works if LG DTM is on, but not if it's off? No idea, just wondering why you excluded 4. from your tests.
No, unfortunately not that clever That's why:

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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
... lg dtm brightens the mid range sdr. ...Only the sdr range in an HDR video! When lg dtm is enabled the mid range of sdr can become brighter. It doesn't seem to bother most people.
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Just forget about LG's DTM if an intended accurate look is what you're after. That's not what LG's DTM implementation does. It's more of a bright room/showroom mode for the average consumer who likes a bright picture...

It will brighten up almost all scenes that are below the Oleds peak luminance output. For example a scene with a peak of 100 nits becomes 150 nits with DTM turned on. Or a 250 nits scene will be stretched to more than 400 nits. For most scenes it will go way above the intended EOTF...
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
LG's DTM is actually dynamic, in very bright scenes it might actually do something good and reveal some more details within highlights but it just doesn't respect the PQ EOTF and does whatever it wants so for people wanting an accurate representation it's just no good. A proper DTM algorithm shouldn't mess with scenes that are below the displays peak brightness.
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Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
LG's DTM off for everything, I REALLY hate LG's DTM: everything becomes way too bright or way too dark. IMO it destroys the intended look of the movie.
That's right, actually, LG's DTM not just brightens the image all the time but sometimes:
- brightens it
- leaves it untouched
- darkens it!

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Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
However, from my testing (The Meg, UHD HDR benchmark), using LG's DTM still brings out quite a bit of highlight detail even with madVR tonemapping to 760 nits.
Not sure why that is though, the output from madVR should already be resolving these details.
It's because the TV's built-in tonemapping can't be turned off.

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Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
So while I don't like the overall brightness increase, highlight detail is more important to me.
Agreed, that's why I like LG's DTM as well. Compromises ...

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Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
Do note that these were done with madVR capped at 760 nits (v86, maximal target nits set to 760 instead of 10,000 nits).
Both The Meg & the UHD HDR benchmark disc usually tonemap to at least 1500 nits dynamically.
And since were are here, outputting HDR with madvr has another issue in the latest build.

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Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
yes, the camera picture slightly over-saturate the colors but there is small blue tint compared to the HDR10 passthrough in real life. Over-all, the colors are really different: less vivid & darker, that's for sure.
Btw, which madvr build do you use? b86 or the latest? The latest has some issue with colorspaces.

But as @SamuriHL said we are getting off topic here I just wanted you to know how it behaves on a HDR capable TV where tonemapping can't be turned off.
The ideal TV/monitor would be which is capable of high nits and its tonemapping can be turned off, but I wonder if it will ever happen. And even if it will, a display like this has different requirements than a projector, so who knows without proper testing.

But as I said, Envy can provide its other goodies for such displays as well: upscaling, other algos, 3dlut, etc.

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post #1452 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 04:44 AM
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displaycal(fhoech) was ready to add the target gamma to the 3D LUT header which would easily fix this issue but nothing come out of it never heard anything from madshi on this topic.
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post #1453 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 05:11 AM
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displaycal(fhoech) was ready to add the target gamma to the 3D LUT header which would easily fix this issue but nothing come out of it never heard anything from madshi on this topic.
We have discussed it with madshi and Florian on a couple of occasions, but changing this default apparently causes some wider compatibility issues, as it would mean a new LUT format. DisplayCAL isn't the only software involved in calibrating for madVR/Envy. It might change in the future, possibly with a new 3D LUT format, but for now, I only wanted to point out that the correct way to use a 3D LUT with madVR/Envy when tonemapping to SDR is to select a 2.2 target. Competent calibrators know this, so it's not as if it's a problem.

Anyway, this is pretty much off topic, as it's something that a calibrator should know when generating 3D LUTs for madVR. It's none of the end user's business. The end user not using a 3D LUT can specify any gamma target in the menu, and as long as this is really what the display is calibrated to, it will work fine

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post #1454 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 05:57 AM
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it is a huge issue because if the envy doesn't support profiles you are screwed you currently "need" 2 3D LUTs.
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post #1455 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 06:46 AM
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it is a huge issue because if the envy doesn't support profiles you are screwed you currently "need" 2 3D LUTs.
Why don't you wait to see how the Envy handles this instead of declaring it's a "huge issue"?

All I know is that at the moment, it's not an issue with madVR as long as you're aware of the convention / requirement.

Anyway, I'll let madshi take over, I was only correcting some possibly misleading information, my intention wasn't to be dragged into an endless debate...

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post #1456 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes, but madshi's statement has got nothing to do with using a 3D LUT

By default, the Envy has no 3D LUT loaded, so it makes sense to use a "this display is already calibrated to" gamma 2.4, as this is the most likely situation for an Envy user (although the default will probably change to HDR now if I followed correctly, not to SDR 2.4).

I was talking specifically about the gamma target of a 3D LUT, which is what you specifically referenced in your post. This is why I specifically mentioned the parts in bold, i.e. those about using a 3D LUT. In this case, you're not using the "Your display is already calibrated to" and specify a gamma, you're using the "This display uses a 3D LUT for calibration" option, and you can't select the gamma target. As madVR has no way to know, with the current LUT format, which target was used, the convention is to use 2.2. You were recommending a 2.4 gamma in that case, and that wasn't correct. You have to specify a 2.2 gamma for the target of the 3D LUT if you want madVR's tone mapping to be correct when using a 3D LUT to correct the SDR P3/BT2020 calibration.

The display baseline can be calibrated to whatever gamma you like (so for example you could set it to 2.4 so that when you don't use a 3D LUT with madVR it gives good results with say the SDR BT2020 output of a standalone UHD Bluray player, which will target 2.4) , but the 3D LUT target should be 2.2 as that is, at the moment, what madVR expects internally when an SDR LUT is used with its HDR to SDR tonemapping.
OK fine, I'm not across the finer details of how MadVR is set up. I would say that the setup as described sounds error prone, confusing and sub-optimal in that case, where you'd have a 3DLUT targetting a different gamma to the display gamma, with an additional gamma adjustment process to get between the two which should be unnecessary. I would suggest not following that scheme for Envy, certainly don't do it that way just because that is how the PC app works.

The Lumagen setup is much simpler and sensible in this respect. Output SDR gamma is expected to be 2.4 and you create a 2.4 gamma target 1D/3DLUT set if you're doing LUT based calibration. Your 1D/3D lut is attempting to create a "perfect" version of the expected output.
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post #1457 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
All I know is that at the moment, it's not an issue with madVR as long as you're aware of the convention / requirement.
Having to be aware of seemingly nonsensical (I guess historical) conventions / requirements is probably the antithesis to a plug-and-play goal
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post #1458 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
OK fine, I'm not across the finer details of how MadVR is set up. I would say that the setup as described sounds error prone, confusing and sub-optimal in that case, where you'd have a 3DLUT targetting a different gamma to the display gamma, with an additional gamma adjustment process to get between the two which should be unnecessary. I would suggest not following that scheme for Envy, certainly don't do it that way just because that is how the PC app works.

The Lumagen setup is much simpler and sensible in this respect. Output SDR gamma is expected to be 2.4 and you create a 2.4 gamma target 1D/3DLUT set if you're doing LUT based calibration. Your 1D/3D lut is attempting to create a "perfect" version of the expected output.
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Having to be aware of seemingly nonsensical (I guess historical) conventions / requirements is probably the antithesis to a plug-and-play goal
One last time: I was only correcting misinformation you posted due to the fact that you have never calibrated for madVR.

I have discussed this at length with madshi. He is aware of the issues / confusion that this 2.2 gamma standard / convention /requirement for 3D LUTs might cause with people who, like you, are not familiar with madVR and have never generated a 3D LUT for madVR. For everyone else, the requirement is known and makes sense.

Why don't you guys wait and see how it's handled in the Envy when it's released?

Plug an play is for the user. I don't think anyone is expecting a plug and play calibration, whether for the Lumagen or the Envy. That would be, I think, a bit unrealistic.

You calibrate the display to 2.2 (normal), and you create a 2.2 3D LUT that delivers that standard. 2.4 or 2.2 is irrelevant for PQ gamma, but too many people fail to understand this. There is no such thing as a "perfect output" for PQ when it's tonemapped to power gamma. It can really be any target, it makes zero difference to the result.

There is nothing more "intuitive" saying that the LUT is expected to be 2.4 rather than 2.2. It's more intuitive if you're in a bat cave with a projector, it's not more intuitive if you're in a living room with a flat panel.

Anyway, I'll leave it here. Next time I'll let someone else correct your mistakes
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post #1459 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 08:49 AM
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One last time: I was only correcting misinformation you posted due to the fact that you have never calibrated for madVR.

I have discussed this at length with madshi. He is aware of the issues / confusion that this 2.2 gamma standard / convention /requirement for 3D LUTs might cause with people who, like you, are not familiar with madVR and have never generated a 3D LUT for madVR. For everyone else, the requirement is known and makes sense.

Why don't you guys wait and see how it's handled in the Envy when it's released?

Plug an play is for the user. I don't think anyone is expecting a plug and play calibration, whether for the Lumagen or the Envy. That would be, I think, a bit unrealistic.

You calibrate the display to 2.2 (normal), and you create a 2.2 3D LUT that delivers that standard. 2.4 or 2.2 is irrelevant for PQ gamma, but too many people fail to understand this. There is no such thing as a "perfect output" for PQ when it's tonemapped to power gamma. It can really be any target, it makes zero difference to the result.
I think you're comment about perfect output is silly; you can of course apply the same to 2.2. When you're calibrating to any standard (be it 2.2 or 2.4) of course what you are targeting is a LUT that creates a perfect display of that standard. That later you will use it as a basis for a further conversion of PQ gamma content through a dynamic tone mapper is irrelevant.

The reason it is less intuitive is that the standard MadVR is expecting an external display to be calibrated to is 2.4 for the tone mapping, yet you'd then ask that if you're generating a LUT it be to 2.2. Seeing as Envy hasn't made the light of day yet (in the wider world) it would perhaps make sense to take on board and attempt to alleviate sources of confusion (be they for the end user or calibrator's eyes). Or not, and just take the occasional support requests, but generally if something keeps coming up it's worth understanding why - which it sounds like you're involved in. I don't really care much either way as I understand enough to use the appropriate option once I know what that is.

Anyway, I've edited my original post to show the 2.2 info, thanks for the correction.
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post #1460 of 1520 Old 09-24-2019, 08:55 AM
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I think you're comment about perfect output is silly; you can of course apply the same to 2.2. When you're calibrating to any standard (be it 2.2 or 2.4) of course what you are targeting is a LUT that creates a perfect display of that standard. That later you will use it as a basis for a further conversion of PQ gamma content through a dynamic tone mapper is irrelevant.

The reason it is less intuitive is that the standard MadVR is expecting an external display to be calibrated to is 2.4 for the tone mapping, yet you'd then ask that if you're generating a LUT it be to 2.2. Seeing as Envy hasn't made the light of day yet (in the wider world) it would perhaps make sense to take on board and attempt to alleviate sources of confusion (be they for the end user or calibrator's eyes). Or not, and just take the occasional support requests, but generally if something keeps coming up it's worth understanding why - which it sounds like you're involved in. I don't really care much either way as I understand enough to use the appropriate option once I know what that is.

Anyway, I've edited my original post to show the 2.2 info, thanks for the correction.
Which part of "all this is known and has been discussed at length with madshi and Florian already" do you not get?

I'm giving up. Have fun on your own

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One last thing on the LG tone mapping. I'm really ugly right now with LG. As we've noticed, we "lose highlight detail" when madvr is tone mapping and the LG DTM is set to off. Well, those of you who believe you're recovering all that lost highlight detail with LG DTM enabled I got some very bad news for you. You're recovering some of it, but, not nearly all of it. As a test I disabled output HDR in madvr's tone mapping, cranked the highlight recovery to Are you nuts?!, and set a real display nit of 100. Obviously I lose all brightness in the HDR range because I'm not triggering HDR mode on this tv nor did I bother to crank the OLED and brightness to 100. Nevertheless, the detail I see in the Spears and Munsil demo at 10k nits is far greater than with anything HDR enabled on these displays. So it is not madvr that is losing the highlight details when it's tone mapping as far as I can see. It's whatever LG's static tone mapping is doing and DTM does not recover anywhere near everything. Now I'm depressed.


EDIT:


So those of you who are willing to sacrifice for highlight detail, just how much are you willing to compromise? I challenge you to try this:


Set madvr to NOT output HDR. Set the real display nits to ~400 or less (play with this). Set your LG to OLED 100, Contrast 100, gamma 2.2. You WILL lose brightness, obviously. You can lower the real display nit if you want to crank more brightness out of the image. But try our Spears and Munsil demo with those settings. Look at the clouds. Then look at our favorite horse in snow scene.
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post #1462 of 1520 Old 09-25-2019, 05:47 AM
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Set your LG to OLED 100, Contrast 100, gamma 2.2. You WILL lose brightness, obviously.
This one will raise issues with calibration/profiling, trigger agressive ABL, etc. Unfortunately there's no ideal solution, compromises ...

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post #1463 of 1520 Old 09-25-2019, 05:51 AM
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This one will raise issues with calibration/profiling, trigger agressive ABL, etc. Unfortunately there's no ideal solution, compromises ...
Yes of course it will. But you guys said you wanted highlight details.

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post #1464 of 1520 Old 10-04-2019, 12:36 PM
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The nvidia shield can output at native resolution of the content. As will a tivo. The very two devices I'd love to run through an envy if I had the cash to buy one. With the shield I can stream vudu Netflix Amazon prime hulu etc.
So I have a Shield now - it doesn't automatically output native resolution or frame rate for Netflix as far as I can see, so previous comments on how useful the upscaler ends up being when used with streaming boxes stands. All SDR is output at 59.94p and upscaled to 4K if your Shield is set to 4K; only HDR content appears to change display modes.

If you want to check, use the Test Patterns set (search in Netflix for it). If I'm missing a setting, let me know.
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post #1465 of 1520 Old 10-04-2019, 01:26 PM
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So I have a Shield now - it doesn't automatically output native resolution or frame rate for Netflix as far as I can see, so previous comments on how useful the upscaler ends up being when used with streaming boxes stands. All SDR is output at 59.94p and upscaled to 4K if your Shield is set to 4K; only HDR content appears to change display modes.

If you want to check, use the Test Patterns set (search in Netflix for it). If I'm missing a setting, let me know.

Netflix must not be using the SHIELD's auto-switching capability. That's lovely. Plex does as does Kodi. The streaming apps like Vudu/Netflix/Amazon may not have put a lot of effort into it and just output at whatever the SHIELD is set to. That's annoying.
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Netflix must not be using the SHIELD's auto-switching capability. That's lovely. Plex does as does Kodi. The streaming apps like Vudu/Netflix/Amazon may not have put a lot of effort into it and just output at whatever the SHIELD is set to. That's annoying.
Yeah, for ripped content I have no end of pretty good solutions. The quest to find a streaming player that just plays video properly(!) continues.
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post #1467 of 1520 Old 10-04-2019, 01:37 PM
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Yeah, for ripped content I have no end of pretty good solutions. The quest to find a streaming player that just plays video properly(!) continues.

Somehow I don't think such a beast exists. Not in what you're trying to accomplish, anyway.
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post #1468 of 1520 Old 10-24-2019, 05:08 AM
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Has anyone new news about the Envy release?
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post #1469 of 1520 Old 10-24-2019, 08:16 AM
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Based upon the lack of recent activity in this thread, I think the announced pricing has scared away many who were hoping for a more affordable product.

I too will likely not be purchasing one and instead will apply the unspent cash towards upgrading to a new JVC projector that features built-in Dynamic Tone Mapping.

I just purchased an RTX-2080 Super video card that arrives tomorrow. My plan will be PC based MadVR DTM for UHD disc playback and JVC DTM for Netflix and Amazon HDR.

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post #1470 of 1520 Old 10-24-2019, 08:28 AM
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Based upon the lack of recent activity in this thread, I think the announced pricing has scared away many who were hoping for a more affordable product.



I too will likely not be purchasing one and instead will apply the unspent cash towards upgrading to a new JVC projector that features built-in Dynamic Tone Mapping.



I just purchased an RTX-2080 Super video card that arrives tomorrow. My plan will be PC based MadVR DTM for UHD disc playback and JVC DTM for Netflix and Amazon HDR.
It's what makes sense.. I think to get them moving they need to get down to 2000 or 2500 bucks which is impossible. Then they can keep their high end item for their high end consumers..

Right now a lumagen 1/8 the size fits better in my room or I can sell my 640 and buy a new projector.
The plus to this would be one last piece of hardware in my room. The plus of keeping the 640 is that I'll have better blacks but I'll definitely go for the lumagen over the madvr..



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