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post #121 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Is this with HDR using pixel shader dynamic tonemapping in one of the latest test builds that delivers better than HDR10+ on all HDR10 content, NGU anti-alias chroma upscaling (best chroma upsaling I've seen), a 64x64x64 3D LUT for reference calibration with HDR and SDR content, excellent dithering that doesn't add any banding, black bars detection to automatically shift the picture according to content and without any performance compromise that reduces picture accuracy?

My 1080ti is only just able to keep up, at least when using D3D11 copyback to detect black bars and play UHD Bluray menus with jRiver. And I have no interest in pixel peeping with my nose up to the screen, I'm talking about features and PQ improvements visible from my sitting position (1.2 screen width).

So if you don't play HDR content, don't care about calibration, and/or settle for a loss of features/performance/picture accuracy, i.e. if you only use a small fraction of madVR's power, then sure a 1060 might be enough. But in that case, I don't think the Envy will be for you, as its focus is clearly on those who want the best HDR tonemapping from any source.

Otherwise I'd like to know your settings and config if you can enable all the above and get a rendering time below 35ms (that's what I consider a safe margin to make sure there is no frame drop/repeat at 23p) with 16/9 content using HDR pixel shader dynamic tonemapping calibrated to reference

I'm not saying that the Envy will have any or all of the above features, I'm only correcting your statement about which hardware is necessary with madVR when you care about all the visible improvements it can bring with HDR content.
Well, I can have what you listed enabled minus the 3D LUT on my laptop's GTX 1060 max-Q.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57600310

I've never messed with 3D LUT so I don't know the performance impact of that. I would have thought going up from a 1060 to a 1070 would add enough perf to add 3D LUT unless that option is super intensive.

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
For HDR tone mapping, yes you can get away with something in the GTX 1060 range and be mostly there. For 1080p to 4K upscaling, not even close.
Hmm, for chroma I have on NGU anti-aliasing medium and for luma I have on NGU sharp high and on my laptop's GTX 1060 max-Q see about 18-20ms render times up-scaling 1080p to 4K. I guess I need to be turning on other further enhancement options for my upscale?

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post #122 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 08:09 AM
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Yea, all this changes when you ditch the small 55" TV and get a 135" projector screen. Even my wife notices a difference and she doesn't' care about this stuff *at all*. Honestly at 2.5 meters from a 55" TV, I'm not convinced you can actually even see the difference between 1080p and 4K (taking HDR out of the equation, which you probably can't do for a fair comparison).
I'd take that challenge and bet I could see the difference
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post #123 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Well, I can have what you listed enabled minus the 3D LUT on my laptop's GTX 1060 max-Q.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57600310

I've never messed with 3D LUT so I don't know the performance impact of that. I would have thought going up from a 1060 to a 1070 would add enough perf to add 3D LUT unless that option is super intensive.



Hmm, for chroma I have on NGU anti-aliasing medium and for luma I have on NGU sharp high and on my laptop's GTX 1060 max-Q see about 18-20ms render times up-scaling 1080p to 4K. I guess I need to be turning on other further enhancement options for my upscale?
I love it when someone says "except one thing" when about everything isn't enabled or active

- I use NGU High AA for chroma, but okay, let's say NGU medium. Upscaling doesn't matter, we're talking about native 4K HDR content here as this is clearly the main focus of the Envy.
- The picture on your OSD isn't 16/9, it's widescreen. Rendering time will go up with 16/9 content (say Pacific Rim, it has to be 1.78 ratio to have the worst case scenario, otherwise you might be fine with 2.40 content and drop frames with 1.78 content)
- You have no 3D LUT enabled as you mentioned, so no calibration
- You have no black bar detection enabled (or they are not shifting the picture on your screenshot), so you might be using D3D11 exclusive, which as I said is faster but doesn't work with black bar detection or UHD Bluray menus with jRiver), so please use copyback to make sure all features can actually be used/enabled
- The live algo for dynamic tonemapping is not active on your OSD screenshots. In your settings, the display you show the HDR settings for is not active either. So make sure that you show the settings of the active display, and let's see rendering times when the live algo from the latest test build is actually enabled. The HDR settings have to be enabled when you take the screenshot.
- You need to select bicubic150 in the downscaling algo to get the best results with the live tonemapping algo.

Looks like you're not not using half of what you think you are using, so no wonder you are thinking that you don't need more power as settings don't seem to make a difference!

Please don't post here to debug your settings, better debugging in a thread in which it will be on topic. Once you have debugged, please post screenshots showing that all that I mentioned is actually being used (you can't use D3D11 native for that), and let's see your rendering times on your laptop's GTX 1060.

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post #124 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I love it when someone says "except one thing" when about everything isn't enabled or active

- I use NGU High, but okay, let's say NGU medium
- The picture on your OSD isn't 16/9, it's widescreen. Rendering time will go up with 16/9 content (say Pacific Rim, it ahs to be 1.78 ratio to have the worst case scenario)
- You have no 3D LUT enabled as you mentioned, so no calibration
- You have no black bar detection, so you might be using D3D11 exclusive, which as I said is faster but doesn't work with black bar detection or UHD Bluray menus with jRiver
- The live algo is not active on your OSD screeshots. In your settings, the display you show the HDR settings for is not active either. So make sure that you show the settings of the active display, and let's see rendering times when the live algo from the latest test build is actually enabled

Looks like you not not using half of what you think you are using, so no wonder you are thinking that you don't need more power as settings don't seem to make a difference!

Please don't post here to debug your settings, better debugging in a thread in which it will be on topic. Once you have debugged, please post screenshots showing that all that I mentioned is actually being used (you can't use D3D11 native for that), and let's see your rendering times.
I am using DXVA2 Copyback. And yes, the live algorithm is certainly enabled and functioning. Of course it's an older build, I took the screenshots last month. I am on the latest madVR test builds and it only added 1-2ms with the latest 2-metric scene detection, so it's around 35ms now.

I don't normally use black bar detection, but I have used it before and it actually reduced the render time in scope content by 2-3ms as it uses the CPU to detect the bars, not the GPU, and it results in fewer pixels for madVR to process once removed.

I think it's fair to give results without 3D LUT as not that many people use 3D LUT. What % of people would you really say use a 3D LUT? Sure if you are going to use a 3D LUT in your future then you need a faster GPU.

Full 16:9 will increase render times yes, but remember, this is a laptop GTX 1060 max-Q (which is the low power 65W maximum power version). A desktop 1060 is quite a bit faster, around 10-15% faster. It should not have a problem with full 16:9 then on a desktop model, especially if you overclock it.

I could do some new screenshots tonight on the latest build on 16:9 and enable black bar detection.

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post #125 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I am using DXVA2 Copyback. And yes, the live algorithm is certainly enabled and functioning. Of course it's an older build, I took the screenshots last month. I am on the latest madVR test builds and it only added 1-2ms with the latest 2-metric scene detection, so it's around 35ms now.

I don't normally use black bar detection, but I have used it before and it actually reduced the render time in scope content by 2-3ms as it uses the CPU to detect the bars, not the GPU, and it results in fewer pixels for madVR to process once removed.

I think it's fair to give results without 3D LUT as not that many people use 3D LUT. What % of people would you really say use a 3D LUT? Sure if you are going to use a 3D LUT in your future then you need a faster GPU.

Full 16:9 will increase render times yes, but remember, this is a laptop GTX 1060 max-Q (which is the low power 65W maximum power version). A desktop 1060 is quite a bit faster, around 10-15% faster. It should not have a problem with full 16:9 then on a desktop model, especially if you overclock it.
The live algo with dynamic tonemapping is not enabled on the screenshots with rendering times, because it doesn't show the dynamic target, and the HDR settings you are providing are on a disabled display (your enabled display is the CMN one, not the Generic one). The settings you are showing have zero impact on the picture you are watching (at the time you took the screenshots). These are facts.

Correct this, i.e. show the HDR settings of a display that is enabled, and a screenshot of the OSD with the latest build where the live algo with dynamic tonemapping (dynamic targets) is actually running, and we'll take it from there. By the way, last month in madVR development time, given the speed at which it's going at the moment, is like being a year behind. Get up to speed!

Black bars detection can save rendering time if you use it to crop black bars, it doesn't save any time if you use it to shift the picture on a 16/9 screen so that you have only one larger black bar to facilitate manual masking.

To me it looks like those boasting about being able to use low-end GPUs with madVR either have a puny screen and sit at 5 screen width, or have a laptop and are not using madVR's full potential, even when they think they are.

Users that I know who have a proper home cinema setup able to display 4K HDR content and actually know how to use madVR and make the most of it on a large screen don't seem to be making ridiculous claims about a $150 GPU being more than enough to do the job.

Make your own conclusions
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post #126 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
But MadVr upscaling can bring a 1080p movie to almost 4k quality given the right settings, although its pretty demanding, my gtx 1080ti cannot even handle the highest settings without stuttering.
I know its wishful thinking but one can dream of a box that brings ALL madvr features to any source.
Perhaps he'll use an FPGA which is designed to handle the algorithms. That would increase the performance, reduce the cost, and reduce power consumption.
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post #127 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 08:51 AM
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Will this natively force match framerate for the display?

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post #128 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
The live algo with dynamic tonemapping is not enabled on the screenshots with rendering times, because it doesn't show the dynamic target, and the HDR settings you are providing are on a disabled display (your enabled display is the CMN one, not the Generic one). The settings you are showing have zero impact on the picture you are watching (at the time you took the screenshots). These are facts.
I'm sorry, but you are mistaken here.

First, the display is absolutely not disabled, there are only 3 displays there, a JVC projector (JKC ILAFJ...) not connected, the laptop's built in display (CMS N156HHE...), and the 4K TV I had it running on (Generic PnP Monitor). Both the Generic PnP and CMN N156HHE were activated and outputting at the time of the screenshots.

Second, the target nits only shows when you create a folder inside your madVR folder named "ShowHdrMode". I do not have this folder, so it does not show the target nits. That does't mean dynamic tone-mapping isn't working. I can literally see it working.

All you other points are valid though and I can take new screenshots tonight.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
To me it looks like those boasting about being able to use low-end GPUs with madVR either have a puny screen and sit at 5 screen width, or have a laptop and are not using madVR's full potential, even when they think they are.

Users that I know who have a proper home cinema setup able to display 4K HDR content and actually know how to use madVR and make the most of it on a large screen don't seem to be making ridiculous claims about a $150 GPU being more than enough to do the job.

Make your own conclusions
I use a RTX 2060 on my HTPC and sit 13ft from a 10.5ft wide screen.

I've been using madVR for 8 years and tone-mapping since the first time tone-mapping was released in madVR. My conclusion is that you don't know what you are talking about as you have demonstrated by your false assessment and assumptions about my setup.

I pulled out my laptop with a 1060 to see what it could do as far as performance because people were asking about a 1060 in the HTPC thread. No other reason than that.

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post #129 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I'm sorry, but you are mistaken here.

First, the display is absolutely not disabled, there are only 3 displays there, a JVC projector (JKC ILAFJ...), the laptop's built in display (CMS N156HHE...), and the 4K TV I had it running on (Generic PnP Monitor). Both the Generic PnP and CMN N156HHE were activated and outputting at the time of the screenshots.

Second, the target nits only shows when you create a folder inside your madVR folder named "ShowHdrMode". I do not have this folder, so it does not show the target nits. That does't mean dynamic tone-mapping isn't working. I can literally see it working.

All you other points are valid though and I can take new screenshots tonight.
What is the display you are watching? Please make sure it's bold and not disabled when you are showing the settings, so that we can see that the settings are actually impacting the enabled display. Or show the settings of the enabled (bold) display. And yes please add the showHDRmode folder, otherwise how do we know what's going on? Why should I trust you that you are seeing it working, when you are telling me you only need a laptop with a 1060 to do it

And please enable a dummy 3D LUT so that we can get closer to the statement I made. Because if you take half the points away, well, then of course you can do it.

I don't know how many people use a 3D LUT, but there should be more, that's for sure. That's the main reason why I decided not to upgrade my Radiance 3D mini and went for madVR. Otherwise I'd have a Radiance Pro right now. With a good 3D LUT, the difference in PQ between LUT on and LUT off is not marginal. There is a split screen feature, so it's easy to see it.

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post #130 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 09:08 AM
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Perhaps he'll use an FPGA which is designed to handle the algorithms. That would increase the performance, reduce the cost, and reduce power consumption.
As pointed out earlier in this thread, high performance FPGA's are not cheap. The Lumagen Radiance Pro is priced according to the high performance FPGA that it utilises, together with the development and support costs needed to release the product, and maintain and improve it over a long lifespan. MadVR's processing appears to be significantly more resource intensive than Lumagens, so I can only assume the FPGA requirements will be higher also, whilst the development and support costs will be similar.
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post #131 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 09:36 AM
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What colorimeter/spectrophotometer are you using for your madVR 3D LUT calibration?

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post #132 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 09:44 AM
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@Manni01


What colorimeter/spectrophotometer are you using for your madVR 3D LUT calibration?
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post #133 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post

I use a RTX 2060 on my HTPC and sit 13ft from a 10.5ft wide screen.

I've been using madVR for 8 years and tone-mapping since the first time tone-mapping was released in madVR. My conclusion is that you don't know what you are talking about as you have demonstrated by your false assessment and assumptions about my setup.

I pulled out my laptop with a 1060 to see what it could do as far as performance because people were asking about a 1060 in the HTPC thread. No other reason than that.
You are right, I don't know what I'm talking about

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post #134 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You are right, I don't know what I'm talking about
Alright, I believe this is what you were asking for:

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post #135 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 06:09 PM
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As pointed out earlier in this thread, high performance FPGA's are not cheap. The Lumagen Radiance Pro is priced according to the high performance FPGA that it utilises, together with the development and support costs needed to release the product, and maintain and improve it over a long lifespan. MadVR's processing appears to be significantly more resource intensive than Lumagens, so I can only assume the FPGA requirements will be higher also, whilst the development and support costs will be similar.
Yea, FPGAs are great for emulating a piece of hardware or running RTL code for a device before manufacturing that device. But they're not inherently high performance, and I doubt you're going to find FPGA setup that emulates what a GTX 1080TI can do. And if you could, it would probably require a huge array of FPGAs and cost tons more than a GTX 1080TI. I think Envy could even be implemented as a stand alone windows machine with some custom HDMI input card. There are windows builds that are for this type of thing.

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post #136 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 06:16 PM
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Alright, I believe this is what you were asking for:

https://youtu.be/-xkbOQBVzPA
Correct, that's what I was asking for, though you're tonemapping to rec-709, I would rather get at least P3 with that content (not that it should change performance much).

You are using NGU med (I'm using NGU High) and your rendering times are close to 39ms in the The Dark Knight (16/9, busy scene), your time before a frame drop/repeat is 42 secs. Your present queue and render queue are almost empty, so clearly you are getting frame drops, whether you see them or not.

That's not what I call usable.

You want rendering times at or below 35ms (like on your Sully clip, though your time before a frame drop/repeat is also every 42 secs) and no frame drop for at least one hour (I get anything between one hour and a day with a custom refresh rate, and I never see a frame drop/repeat).

But I will concede that it's not as bad as I would have thought with a 1060, which is good news. It means that with some compromises on features/PQ it might be usable.

What's the GPU/memory on that laptop, and how much RAM and overclock on the 1060? Does it cost less than 500/600 Euros (new, with a warranty)?

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post #137 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 06:19 PM
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FPGAs can be as fast or faster, but the issue is this would require a different type of programming and then debugging to get specific functions to work properly. Right now he is able to use a general purpose of sorts processor to accomplish tasks. Now you would be moving to a blank page where you have to tell the processor how to work. I doubt he would use an FPGA or ASIC because of this, just because of the effort and support required. It would be easier for him to use a current off the shelf processor whether that is a gpu or a possibly already developed FPGA that does most of what he needs but I’m not aware of something like that.
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post #138 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Correct, that's what I was asking for.

You are using NGU med (I'm using NGU High) and your rendering times are close to 39ms in the The Dark Knight (16/9, busy scene), your time before a frame drop/repeat is 42 secs. Your present queue and render queue are almost empty, so clearly you are getting frame drops, whether you see them or not.

That's not what I call usable.

You want rendering times at or below 35ms (like on your Sully clip, though your time before a frame drop/repeat is also every 42 secs) and no frame drop for at least one hour (I get anything between one hour and a day with a custom refresh rate, and I never see a frame drop/repeat).

But I will concede that it's not as bad as I would have thought with a 1060, which is good news. It means that with some compromises on features/PQ it would be usable.

What's the GPU/memory on that laptop, and how much RAM and overclock on the 1060? Does it cost less than 500/600 Euros (new, with a warranty)?
Well, this is a 1060 Max-Q laptop model (6GB) which is capped at 65W power. The clock speed boost maxes out at about 1350MHz hitting it's power limit which I cannot bypass. A desktop 1060 is at least 10%-15% faster if not more when overclocked, and can easily reach 1700MHz.

https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compar.../m325746vs3639

CPU is a i5-7300HQ and RAM is 8GB 2400MHz. I picked this up from Dell outlet about 8 months ago for $579. It's a Dell 7577. New, I think this laptop was around $800 near it's end of production.

Personally, I would be very impressed if you could tell NGU medium from NGU very high for Chroma up-scaling in a blind test. Luma sure, but Chroma, I doubt it. I have yet to see a difference even pixel peeping myself. That being said, sure, my own HTPC is a RTX 2060 and I run higher settings. I was just doing this as a test and demonstration of what the capabilities of a lesser GPU are at this point.

Sure this is very, very borderline at 16:9, but shouldn't madVR report frame drops in it's stats if there are any? I am not really noticing them, but again I'm just playing clips and haven't watched a full movie. I just ran this sort of test originally on my laptop when someone was asking what settings could be used on a 1060 in the HTPC thread. It was actually a couple ms faster on rendering back in the madVR dynamic tone-mapping test build 40's. But yeah, who knows if the madVR tone-mapping algorithm will get a litter faster or slower in the future. Probably even slower, but you never know.

Certainly I would hope that given what madshi said is the goal for this madVR box that it has at least a bit more power than a full 1060.
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post #139 of 1536 Old 03-05-2019, 06:55 PM
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Certainly I would hope that given what madshi said is the goal for this madVR box that it has at least a bit more power than a full 1060.
Yes, that was exactly my point, as I don't think a 1060 is enough to make the most of what madVR has to offer

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post #140 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 12:49 AM
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Aaah man, just don't know what to do.....
Wait for the envy or build a HTPC now.
If the Envy is to expensive, like 2000 dollar I don't know if I want to buy it.....
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post #141 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 12:51 AM
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Aaah man, just don't know what to do.....
Wait for the envy or build a HTPC now.
If the Envy is to expensive, like 2000 dollar I don't know if I want to buy it.....
If an HTPC satisfies your needs, build one. We don't know for sure if or when an Envy will really exist nor do we know the price. My guess is it will be more than $2000.
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post #142 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 12:55 AM
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Aaah man, just don't know what to do.....
Wait for the envy or build a HTPC now.
If the Envy is to expensive, like 2000 dollar I don't know if I want to buy it.....
I'm not being funny but what has the envy got to do with you making a decision in building a HTPC or not? The Envy is going to probably be a device like the Darbee Darblet. It's not going to be a media player so I would say go ahead with your HTPC build.. Also madshi hasn't even confirmed a date or mentioned it coming out this year... A HTPC is a HTPC and I can't be sure but I don't believe this device will be a HTPC replacement...

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post #143 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 01:36 AM
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I'm not being funny but what has the envy got to do with you making a decision in building a HTPC or not? The Envy is going to probably be a device like the Darbee Darblet. It's not going to be a media player so I would say go ahead with your HTPC build.. Also madshi hasn't even confirmed a date or mentioned it coming out this year... A HTPC is a HTPC and I can't be sure but I don't believe this device will be a HTPC replacement...

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Only reason for me to build a HTPC is for madvr tonemapping. I don't need a mediaplayer.
But you are right, not enough info right now for the Envy, I going ahead with my htpc build.
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post #144 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 01:58 AM
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I would think they would utilize a FPGA. It is more cost effective, and avoids all the thermal and stability issues that will come with trying to cram a HTPC with a high end CPU/GPU into a device that will fit onto an AV rack. A windows PC based device would end up being more expensive than Lumagen, once you factor in the markup needed to build and support the devices.
Exactly. Using a configurable existing board is doable - designing their own chip? Not so much.

Something like this (haven't verified full specs but something similar):

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/produ...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
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post #145 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 03:29 AM
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Exactly. Using a configurable existing board is doable - designing their own chip? Not so much.



Something like this (haven't verified full specs but something similar):



https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/produ...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
I doubt that board would have enough processing power or memory for the Madvr stuff.

Even with the reduced overhead of an minimal embedded OS you are going to need a lot of processing power and memory.

Remember the algorithms used in the existing products available are much less demanding than what's available in Madvr.

Really also depends how of the existing development Madshi has done for Madvr in Windows he wants to reuse as the existing algorithms, code, etc has really been tuned for that platform and the further he moves away from that the more development and testing he needs to do.

Being a high end device it could well use something like a NVIDIA MXM card for the processing power.

Madvr uses DirectX on Windows which means that some sort of Embedded Windows solution that allows use of Direct X might save development time just depends on what HDMI input hardware and associated SDK are available on the Windows embedded platform.

If using Open GL or similar then of course can use Linux....

Really depends on how tied to the existing development platform / technologies this new stuff is.
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post #146 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 04:45 AM
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Maybe madshi is envisioning a partnership with a company with a product like the Digital Storm Spark, "a powerful gaming PC the size of a shoebox". Prices begin at $999.

It's upgradable, and an RTX 2080 model was announced at CES 2019. A similar custom Envy box could use a much less powerful CPU, much less storage, and no water-cooling.
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post #147 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 05:37 AM
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as I don't think a 1060 is enough to make the most of what madVR has to offer
Well, I think the other guys are true as well: it all depends on the given setup that we use
A 1060 6GB is more than enough for me with my setup.

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post #148 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 05:41 AM
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Well, I think the other guys are true as well: it all depends on the given setup that we use
A 1060 6GB is more than enough for me with my setup.
...which is absolutely fine if you don't want to make the most of what madVR has to offer
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post #149 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 06:07 AM
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...which is absolutely fine if you don't want to make the most of what madVR has to offer
Can we get it as an app running on the Xbox One and call it day?
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post #150 of 1536 Old 03-06-2019, 06:27 AM
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More baseless speculation: what if it was a box that required you to plug in a video card, and then automatically created appropriate settings based on what video card you plugged in? That would reduce the cost of the box, reduce the complexity, but still allow for a wide range of user outcomes? If he controlled every other element (the CPU, ram, etc), then maybe that would give him enough fixed variables to do the automatic-options-selection programming?
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