madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 51 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1501 of 1646 Old 11-05-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I would't need any more pixel.
I don´t either. But I can imagine quite a few great 8k downscaling options with the Envy
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post #1502 of 1646 Old 11-05-2019, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Yes, at the moment it looks like a super small niche with Lumagen already sitting in. I have seen both the Lumagen Radiance Pro and also MadVR incl HDTM. Unfortunatelly not side by side. But even it was a side by side comparion people would argue that at least one of them was not set up properly. So that does not really matter since I have only to convince myself about the best choice for me

I could see why people like the DTM of the Radiance. There was nothing wrong with it as far I could see. The settings were conservatively choosen following the recommendation you find here in this forum. Personally I am much more thrilled by MadVR and what it eventually could do with Envy. So Lumagen's DTM is no option for me. Even more after the introduction of HSTM which I like a lot when settings are choosen wisely. For me HSTM has so much impact on the picture quality that most likely I will found my buying decison on what kind of settings will be in the Envy. With poor HSTM settings picture quality is reduced. The (dis)advantage of the Envy is less flexibility in that respect. At the moment I am a bit worried about that but I try to think positive. If that goes wrong I might consider building up a PC. Then at least I can adjust the settings better to my preferences.

I am more convinced than ever that after seeing it and comparing many will consider buying an Envy despite they already have a Radiance Pro.
What is HSTM?
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post #1503 of 1646 Old 11-05-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
For me I just want dynamic tone mapping for disc and streaming. Nothing else..
Make that happen for half the cost and I'm in..

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I just bought a used Lumagen for exactly that. Started to go down the MadVR path but didn't want to rip all my movies and doesn't work for streaming. Outstanding purchase. Does some other stuff I never considered like allows me to set EDID on a memory button so that I can force my Panny UB 900 to send 1080p to the Lumagen and use that unit's 4k scaling. Panny doesn't do "source direct" so I was considering buying a used OPPO 203 … money saved!

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post #1504 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 02:38 AM
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What is HSTM?
I try to explain it despite I am aware that others can do that much better than me

HSTM stands for Histogram Shaped Tonemapping. It is the latest algorithm that Madshi included in his MadVR dynamic tonemapping of HDR material. Again each frame is analyzed and then a histogram is calculated. Relative to the average height of this histogram then 12 groups (columns) are defined depending how often the brightness of these pixels are used in that frame. Now you can define how much compression is applied to each group. Generally you want that pixels that are often used in that frame (column height is then above average) are less compressed.

Depending on the settings that you are using it is possible to get a brighter picture whithout loosing contrast. Even better you often get more contrast and more brightness at the same time. The benefit is more picture depth and 3D effect. That's why I consider HSTM as a further milestone improving madVR very significantly.
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post #1505 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
For me I just want dynamic tone mapping for disc and streaming. Nothing else..
Make that happen for half the cost and I'm in..

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Would it be possible for MadVR to port their dynamic tone mapping to the Nvidia Shield TV? I would be happy to pay for the software if they could do that.
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post #1506 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 07:11 AM
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you are aware that the shield has a about 0.6 tflop GPU?
that ab 1/4 the processing power of a 1050 none TI.

there is no question if it can be ported it clearly can but that doesn't change that you can't run it on a smart phone.
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post #1507 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you are aware that the shield has a about 0.6 tflop GPU?
that ab 1/4 the processing power of a 1050 none TI.

there is no question if it can be ported it clearly can but that doesn't change that you can't run it on a smart phone.
I'm going to take that as a definite maybe...

I would be very interested if madVR comes out with a lower dollar, much lower feature device just for applying DTM to Amazon/Netflix/Vudu streams.
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post #1508 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I try to explain it despite I am aware that others can do that much better than me

HSTM stands for Histogram Shaped Tonemapping. It is the latest algorithm that Madshi included in his MadVR dynamic tonemapping of HDR material. Again each frame is analyzed and then a histogram is calculated. Relative to the average height of this histogram then 12 groups (columns) are defined depending how often the brightness of these pixels are used in that frame. Now you can define how much compression is applied to each group. Generally you want that pixels that are often used in that frame (column height is then above average) are less compressed.

Depending on the settings that you are using it is possible to get a brighter picture whithout loosing contrast. Even better you often get more contrast and more brightness at the same time. The benefit is more picture depth and 3D effect. That's why I consider HSTM as a further milestone improving madVR very significantly.
Thank you, great explanation
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post #1509 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by chasiliff View Post
I'm going to take that as a definite maybe...
Bear in mind the current solution requires something like a 2060 Super to use fully. This isn't a port, it's writing a new algo.
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post #1510 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 02:46 PM
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Bear in mind the current solution requires something like a 2060 Super to use fully. This isn't a port, it's writing a new algo.
Considering the significantly lower processing power of the 2019 Shield has (at least compared to the high end Envy) it is astounding how good the Shield’s AI upscaling is with 1080p material upscaled to 4k.
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post #1511 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Considering the significantly lower processing power of the 2019 Shield has (at least compared to the high end Envy) it is astounding how good the Shield’s AI upscaling is with 1080p material upscaled to 4k.
I am talking purely about tone mapping with cheap as chips chroma scaling so this is not the same thing at all.
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post #1512 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 03:02 PM
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I am talking purely about tone mapping with cheap as chips chroma scaling so this is not the same thing at all.
Yes, I am aware of that. Interesting nonetheless, what the Shield is capable of re its AI upscaling. I do wonder why madVR’s DTM algorithms require such enormous processing power? I’m sure Lumagen’s processing power pulls off DTM well with substantially less power. In the future when baked in DTM is integrated into projectors, UHD players and smaller boxes, it will take substantially less compute power to do so. I’m sure the Envy results will be spectacular, but the code requiring high tflops certainly drives the cost up.
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post #1513 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Yes, I am aware of that. Interesting nonetheless, what the Shield is capable of re its AI upscaling. I do wonder why madVR’s DTM algorithms require such enormous processing power? I’m sure Lumagen’s processing power pulls off DTM well with substantially less power. In the future when baked in DTM is integrated into projectors, UHD players and smaller boxes, it will take substantially less compute power to do so. I’m sure the Envy results will be spectacular, but the code requiring high tflops certainly drives the cost up.
@madshi

Im curious as well. And why not release a DTM only box?
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post #1514 of 1646 Old 11-06-2019, 05:49 PM
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@madshi

Im curious as well. And why not release a DTM only box?
How about Dolby's player led protocol (LLDV), where the DV tone mapping is done in the source device, instead of the display?

If the Oppo 203/205, Sony x700, x800m2, x1100es and ATV4K 64 can all do a decent job heavy lifting LLDV, a box which takes just another step with an additional dynamic luminance adjustment, seems like what might fill the gap.
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Yes, I am aware of that. Interesting nonetheless, what the Shield is capable of re its AI upscaling. I do wonder why madVR’s DTM algorithms require such enormous processing power? I’m sure Lumagen’s processing power pulls off DTM well with substantially less power. In the future when baked in DTM is integrated into projectors, UHD players and smaller boxes, it will take substantially less compute power to do so. I’m sure the Envy results will be spectacular, but the code requiring high tflops certainly drives the cost up.
ok did you ever read the spec of lumagen?
Quote:
-10 bit front-end, with 12+ bits in calibration pipeline
madVR is shader based which are using 32 bit floatpoint math for pretty much everything this precision alone needs much more processing power.

about nvidia shield 2019 ai what ever scaling.
maybe it's just me but it reminds me of DLSS which has problems beating an image upscaled by bilinear followed by relative simply sharpening filter except for nvidias specially selected image which where trained for that image.
you should not believe such statements in general the same counts for this envy product. the difference here is that everyone with a windows PC can test it right now and verify these statements.

the nvidia shields was an awful product for the majority of it's life span unable to do a proper colorspace conversation.
guess what happens to the new one: https://9to5google.com/2019/11/06/sh...x-color-space/ i'm impressed.
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post #1516 of 1646 Old 11-07-2019, 12:43 AM
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How about Dolby's player led protocol (LLDV), where the DV tone mapping is done in the source device, instead of the display?

If the Oppo 203/205, Sony x700, x800m2, x1100es and ATV4K 64 can all do a decent job heavy lifting LLDV, a box which takes just another step with an additional dynamic luminance adjustment, seems like what might fill the gap.
I think that misses how the tech works. With LLDV the player is given on a platter all the relevant metadata by a process that happens on the powerful mastering rigs with the colourist input. madVR is having to in part calculate and in part guess at what that metadata should have looked like in order to feed it to the tone mapping.

LLDV isn't really doing "heavy lifting" - it was just too hard for Sony to do in their TV with the tools they had in that generation of product.
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post #1517 of 1646 Old 11-07-2019, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
How about Dolby's player led protocol (LLDV), where the DV tone mapping is done in the source device, instead of the display?

If the Oppo 203/205, Sony x700, x800m2, x1100es and ATV4K 64 can all do a decent job heavy lifting LLDV, a box which takes just another step with an additional dynamic luminance adjustment, seems like what might fill the gap.
I think that misses how the tech works. With LLDV the player is given on a platter all the relevant metadata by a process that happens on the powerful mastering rigs with the colourist input. madVR is having to in part calculate and in part guess at what that metadata should have looked like in order to feed it to the tone mapping.

LLDV isn't really doing "heavy lifting" - it was just too hard for Sony to do in their TV with the tools they had in that generation of product.
And it is broken which is why it is always recommended to use TV led vs player unless you have to (Sony). On top of that the Dolby solution is only as good as the info it has to work with (what the display reports specifically) and only works with DV content for true DTM. I love DV in a true end to end solution that does it properly, but outside of that they leave a lot to be desired.

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post #1518 of 1646 Old 11-12-2019, 09:27 AM
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Are these units (the base model & pro model) scheduled to be released by the end of this year?
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Are these units (the base model & pro model) scheduled to be released by the end of this year?
Good question. I submitted a form to indicate I was interested, but never heard back. Then again, maybe under "Equipment" I shouldn't have listed Pioneer Laserdisc player...
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post #1520 of 1646 Old 11-12-2019, 06:33 PM
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Good question. I submitted a form to indicate I was interested, but never heard back. Then again, maybe under "Equipment" I shouldn't have listed Pioneer Laserdisc player...
Haha, I still have my Pioneer Elite CLD-79 but, I'm not using it.
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post #1521 of 1646 Old 11-13-2019, 04:30 PM
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Can't believe how time flies! Sorry for the lack of replies recently.

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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I wonder what @madshi would say is the "most pure" output format his box is capable of. Then, I am curious how many display devices both accept and accurately render it.
How do you define "most pure"?

I would say (hope) that probably the Envy will have higher quality processing than most (all?) displays. So ideally I would want to choose an output setting which minimizes the processing in the display. But how do we do that? With some displays it might be better to output YCbCr, but with other displays it might be possible to output RGB and not have the display convert it back to YCbCr internally. So in that case RGB output would be "more pure". Generally, I like the idea of outputting a gamma curve to the display, instead of using PQ. This way we can be 100% sure that the display doesn't do tone mapping. However, we know that some displays (e.g. LG OLEDs) run with higher luminance if they receive an HDR signal. So driving these with a gamma curve comes with a luminance hit.

So overall, there's no simple answer. I wish there was.

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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
I believe in building a rock solid foundation first, before I get to the frosting on the cake, which is exactly what I have done in my theater and have zero regrets.

1) Get the best projector I can buy/afford [...]

2) Next, add a DCR type lens if feasible to maximize brightness and resolution (unfortunately in my theater the Paladin is not feasible). This I, and many others, prioritize over a VP.
Just wondering: Do you need more brightness for SDR content? I guess I can see that need for 3D. But for 2D? Most people complaining about the lack of brightness are talking about HDR, and there a good dynamic tone mapping implementation will give you much more brightness gain than a DCR type lens. However, the lens will help with 3D, as well, of course.

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OK, my question was if I were to put an Envy in my Windows 7 chain, would the Envy solve this problem? So would the Envy tell my Sony to switch between HDR and back to SDR based on meta data received from my Windows 7 HTPC?
Why don't you let the HTPC do tone mapping? Then you don't need it to switch the output into SDR vs HDR modes. That would probably be the easiest solution to your problem. Provided, of course, your GPU is fast enough to perform the tone mapping. Otherwise, I don't think the Envy will help in this situation, because the problem occurs on your HTPC, and the Envy doesn't have enough information to detect the problem.

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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
For the cost of envy I would rather spend that money and upgrade from a X790 to an RS2000.

I was very interested at first but once JVC announced their DTM i have no need for an external solution.
FWIW, have you seen this article?

http://cine4home.de/dynamisches-hdr-...lich-klarheit/

It's written in German, but google translator should help.

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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I must say I don't currently keep up much with the very latest MadVR developments in the DTM thread as it isn't so relevant to my usage (until an Envy is delivered). I always thought that the big requirements came from not the tone mapping but the scaling (or at least, I thought that was the case at some point in the development). Has that changed, or was I always mistaken?
There are various parts to tone mapping. Some are more demanding than others. Over time I've added more processing steps to tone mapping which are quite demanding. E.g. there's one step which repairs damage that tone mapping did to the luminance channel. Or there's another algorithm called "Highlight Recovery" which splits the image into low and high frequency components and only tone maps the low frequencies. This basically prevents texture detail from being compressed (= reduced in visibility) by tone mapping. These processing steps can be performed using different underlying filters. But if you want to do these kind of algorithms without any halo (or other) image artifacts, you need filters which are computationally quite expensive.

FYI, I think no other tone mapping algorithm on the market (at least none used for real time playback) does any of what I described above. And my business partner would probably like me to add now that our algos are patent pending... Anyway...

There's probably still some room left to optimize madVR's tone mapping algorithms. But if you want the highest possible quality, there's no avoiding the need for relatively high computational power.

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Originally Posted by megamanwilson View Post
Talking crazy here, would it be possible for madvr pro to have a madvr video player where you type a web address and all of the video in that webpage be view with madvr video player or have a madvr internet browser add on where you use firefox,ie,chrome and all the videos in the browser have madvr video quality.
As several users already commented (thanks guys), this doesn't seem very feasible. There are two main reasons: 1) Streaming services are copy protected. 2) madVR is only a video renderer, it's not a player and it's not a decoder. You could ask your favorite media player why they don't do this sort of hacks. It seems more like a job for the media player. madVR only renders video within a DirectShow graph, nothing else. I don't have the resources to do more than that.

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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
If the upscaling is superior than what the RC of my Sony Pj is capable of, it is a buy. If I understand correctly, it will be 8k ready in the future.
It should be 8k ready (probably including 1080->8K and 4K->8K neural network upscaling, although I haven't tested that yet) out of the box - provided your TV has an up-to-date DisplayPort input.

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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
What is HSTM?
What Mori said. Or in simple words: It's sort of a contrast enhancer (which works by analyzing the histogram of each frame) - but it has limiters in place to not violate director's intent. Basically it enhances contrast, but it doesn't go beyond the contrast you would get on a true 10,000nits display. "HSTM" is the technical term. The Envy name for this new algorithm will probably be "Contrast Recovery". Of course, this one is patent pending, as well...

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Originally Posted by chasiliff View Post
Would it be possible for MadVR to port their dynamic tone mapping to the Nvidia Shield TV? I would be happy to pay for the software if they could do that.
Not enough processing power. At least not for the full blown algorithms. Maybe a very very dumbed down version of the tone mapping could run on the latest Shield, I've no idea.

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Originally Posted by MJ DOOM View Post
Im curious as well. And why not release a DTM only box?
Any box that can run the full blown DTM algos smoothly automatically also has enough processing power to do upscaling etc. It might be possible to do a lower spec box which runs a slightly dumbed down version of the DTM algos. But I'm not sure how much cost that would really save. Sure, the GPU could be cheaper, but most other parts, especially the very expensive HDMI HDCP input port, would still stay the same.

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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
Are these units (the base model & pro model) scheduled to be released by the end of this year?
That's the plan, although time is flying like crazy. Supply might be limited at first, which means it might be sort of a soft launch, with only the earliest adopters getting units this year, and the remaining orders being fulfilled very early next year. But we'll see how it goes.

Since we'll build these units manually (at least in the beginning), it's not like we have to build a factory first or an assembly line, or anything fancy like that. So the only things holding us back are things like getting the legal stuff cleared, like HDCP, CE certification etc. And some seemingly simplistic problems to solve, e.g. how to prevent the Nvidia GPU from damaging the mainboard during shipping etc. See here for a sarcastic - but sadly somewhat true - view on software (and product) development:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-ninety_rule

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Originally Posted by bjorg View Post
Good question. I submitted a form to indicate I was interested, but never heard back. Then again, maybe under "Equipment" I shouldn't have listed Pioneer Laserdisc player...
Haha! I don't think the Laserdisc player played a role there. I'm sure Ric will get back to you soon(ish). Sorry for the lack of reply so far...
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post #1522 of 1646 Old 11-13-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
How do you define "most pure"?

I would say (hope) that probably the Envy will have higher quality processing than most (all?) displays. So ideally I would want to choose an output setting which minimizes the processing in the display. But how do we do that? With some displays it might be better to output YCbCr, but with other displays it might be possible to output RGB and not have the display convert it back to YCbCr internally. So in that case RGB output would be "more pure". Generally, I like the idea of outputting a gamma curve to the display, instead of using PQ. This way we can be 100% sure that the display doesn't do tone mapping. However, we know that some displays (e.g. LG OLEDs) run with higher luminance if they receive an HDR signal. So driving these with a gamma curve comes with a luminance hit.

So overall, there's no simple answer. I wish there was.
I suppose that's it then, "most pure" is what would cause the display to output exactly what MadVR says (i.e., as if it came from the display's own internal processor). I suppose now that we look at it this way, it makes sense why "it depends" is pretty much the only answer without knowing the display its attached to.

That said, I guess my original question was driven more by my interest in what the final format of the MadVR rendering pipeline is. Supposing the display could accept that, without processing, this would be the "most pure" output format as neither MadVR nor the display is performing any extraneous colorspace or image processing.
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post #1523 of 1646 Old 11-13-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
See here for a sarcastic - but sadly somewhat true - view on software (and product) development:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-ninety_rule
Sadly, this also applies to DIY home theater building.
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post #1524 of 1646 Old 11-13-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I suppose that's it then, "most pure" is what would cause the display to output exactly what MadVR says (i.e., as if it came from the display's own internal processor). I suppose now that we look at it this way, it makes sense why "it depends" is pretty much the only answer without knowing the display its attached to.

That said, I guess my original question was driven more by my interest in what the final format of the MadVR rendering pipeline is. Supposing the display could accept that, without processing, this would be the "most pure" output format as neither MadVR nor the display is performing any extraneous colorspace or image processing.
The reality is in consumer displays you can't really get a bit perfect output from the HDMI through to the panels because there is just too much else going on.
For example, in a projector you will typically have uniformity processing, which applies colour shading to areas of the screen to counteract optical / panel issues. In an OLED display you have all the stuff to do with panel lifetime management. Then there is the lining up of the display native gamma, etc.

About the closest I know of is the Profile off mode in the JVC projectors, which removes the panel gamma compensation and colour space processing, and has a linear response all the way to the gamut edges.

Don't forget that HDMI 2.0 doesn't actually have the bandwidth necessary to ferry unadulterated full display pixels at high framerate - it ends up having to drop bits of chroma information or lose panel bit depth once you get up to 60Hz.
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post #1525 of 1646 Old 11-13-2019, 05:45 PM
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Probably the least thing on people's minds are the looks. I'm interested in the (base) model. I hate saying that for something costing $5,500 so I'll just call it "Envy" and the other model can be the "Envy Pro". I hope the enclosure will at least look high end. A nice brushed aluminum front panel and metal case. I did see a video from CEDIA and it looked like a cheap black plastic box but, I'm sure it was just a working prototype. I actually like to show/display my gear outside of my theater.
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post #1526 of 1646 Old 11-13-2019, 06:02 PM
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The reality is in consumer displays you can't really get a bit perfect output from the HDMI through to the panels because there is just too much else going on.
For example, in a projector you will typically have uniformity processing, which applies colour shading to areas of the screen to counteract optical / panel issues. In an OLED display you have all the stuff to do with panel lifetime management. Then there is the lining up of the display native gamma, etc.

About the closest I know of is the Profile off mode in the JVC projectors, which removes the panel gamma compensation and colour space processing, and has a linear response all the way to the gamut edges.

Don't forget that HDMI 2.0 doesn't actually have the bandwidth necessary to ferry unadulterated full display pixels at high framerate - it ends up having to drop bits of chroma information or lose panel bit depth once you get up to 60Hz.

And we don't know what the display is doing with whatever signal it's getting. madshi said this earlier but it needs to be understood. If your display is "expecting" ycbcr and uses that internally then sending an rgb signal may mean that it gets converted internally...and with our LG OLED's that doesn't always go well as there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of dithering going on which introduces banding. madvr as we know processes everything internally as rgb which is why it's best to output rgb if your display can handle it. However, madshi said the Envy is processing both in both rgb in some stages and ycbcr in others and by default outputs ycbcr (which can obviously be changed in the settings). Since madvr uses pretty advanced dithering those conversions inside the Envy won't result in any quality loss or banding. And only God knows what the display does with the signal after it gets it....and I don't just mean color space conversions. The LG OLED will tone map any HDR signal it receives, but, doesn't allow us to access the brightness of HDR mode in SDR. You can attempt to limit the impact of the internal processing but on some displays you can't disable it all.



Nonetheless, at the end of the day, Envy will give you as much of a chance to get the absolute best possible quality that your display will allow.
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post #1527 of 1646 Old 11-14-2019, 03:35 AM
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For the cost of envy I would rather spend that money and upgrade from a X790 to an RS2000.
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FWIW, have you seen this article?

http://cine4home.de/dynamisches-hdr-...lich-klarheit/

It's written in German, but google translator should help.
I have seen this article and for that reason I have been giving MadVR a go in my desktop and let me say I am very impressed, thank you and keep up the good work!

MadVR does a phenomenal job with 4K HDR and it is the best I have ever seen it on my X790 look. I have played around with the upscaling but not too much as of yet as I have been focusing on the HDR side of things.

But my statement will still stand as both a lumagen and Envy are just more money then I would like to spend no matter how amazing they are.
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post #1528 of 1646 Old 11-14-2019, 04:17 AM
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Die eine Fraktion rief den direkten „Siegeszug“ JVCs aus und deklarierte (wie so oft ohne Sachverstand) die sofortige Obsoleszenz von madVR.
JVC fanatics in a nut shell.
black clipping we don't talk about black clipping there is nothing wrong with JVC.

ohh and don't worry as soon as you release your algorithm i'm going to find the bugs and short comings.
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post #1529 of 1646 Old 11-14-2019, 08:13 AM
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ohh and don't worry as soon as you release your algorithm i'm going to find the bugs and short comings.
I am sure you'll find some.

In case you didn't know: the MadVR algorithm is available since quite a while. So you can already have a look at it. But be warned: it is not finished yet. Probably - maybe even hopefully - it will never be. Short comings are addressed and then usually reduced.
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post #1530 of 1646 Old 11-14-2019, 09:50 AM
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i know i'm breaking madVR for years.
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