madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 54 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1591 of 1650 Old 11-21-2019, 12:44 PM
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@madshi @lovingdvd - For those of us who have alternative tone mapping solutions and no means (or desire) to get together any time soon a PC to run MadVR at the appropriate levels; it is possible to provide pre-tone mapped videos in REC2020 SDR 2.4 at varying peak nit targets, together with the original source? This way we should be able to compare solutions on screen with our existing setups. It would be nice to see it in action.
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post #1592 of 1650 Old 11-21-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
HSTM is a substantial advancement with DTM that is likely going to remain unrivaled for quite some time.

I've gone back and watched many familiar UHD titles, it's like watching them again for the first time with the veil lifted. every scene looks remarkable and can finally enjoy an HDR movie end to end without thinking about how it could have been better.

envy owners are certainly going to benefit from the amazing commitment of the forum members helping tune the curves, literally on on a hourly basis until HDR perfection is achieved. major kudos to everyone investing their time in this excellent product.
What does hstm stand for and what's the difference between hstm and dynamic tone mapping

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post #1593 of 1650 Old 11-21-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
What does hstm stand for and what's the difference between hstm and dynamic tone mapping

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Stands for Histogram.

I found this. Let it soak in.

High dynamic range (HDR) images require tone-mapping to be displayed properly on lower dynamic range (LDR) devices. In this paper, a tone-mapping algorithm that uses histogram of luminance to construct a look-up table (LUT) for tone-mapping is presented. Characteristics of the human visual system (HVS) are used to give more importance to visually distinguishable intensities while constructing the histogram bins. The method begins with constructing a histogram of the luminance channel, using bins that are perceived to be uniformly spaced by the HVS. Next, a refinement step is used which removes the pixels from the bins that are indistinguishable by the HVS. Finally, the available display levels are distributed among the bins proportionate to the pixels counts thus giving due consideration to the visual contribution of each bin in the image. Quality assessment using both quantitative evaluations and user studies suggests that the proposed algorithm produces tone-mapped images that are visually pleasant, and preserve details of the original image better than the existing methods. Finally, implementation details of the algorithm on GPU for parallel processing are presented, which could achieve a significant gain in speed over CPU based implementation.
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post #1594 of 1650 Old 11-21-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

High dynamic range (HDR) images require tone-mapping to be displayed properly on lower dynamic range (LDR) devices. In this paper, a tone-mapping algorithm that uses histogram of luminance to construct a look-up table (LUT) for tone-mapping is presented. Characteristics of the human visual system (HVS) are used to give more importance to visually distinguishable intensities while constructing the histogram bins. The method begins with constructing a histogram of the luminance channel, using bins that are perceived to be uniformly spaced by the HVS. Next, a refinement step is used which removes the pixels from the bins that are indistinguishable by the HVS. Finally, the available display levels are distributed among the bins proportionate to the pixels counts thus giving due consideration to the visual contribution of each bin in the image. Quality assessment using both quantitative evaluations and user studies suggests that the proposed algorithm produces tone-mapped images that are visually pleasant, and preserve details of the original image better than the existing methods. Finally, implementation details of the algorithm on GPU for parallel processing are presented, which could achieve a significant gain in speed over CPU based implementation.
Wow. Seriously great post.
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post #1595 of 1650 Old 11-21-2019, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
Stands for Histogram.

I found this. Let it soak in.

High dynamic range (HDR) images require tone-mapping to be displayed properly on lower dynamic range (LDR) devices. In this paper, a tone-mapping algorithm that uses histogram of luminance to construct a look-up table (LUT) for tone-mapping is presented. Characteristics of the human visual system (HVS) are used to give more importance to visually distinguishable intensities while constructing the histogram bins. The method begins with constructing a histogram of the luminance channel, using bins that are perceived to be uniformly spaced by the HVS. Next, a refinement step is used which removes the pixels from the bins that are indistinguishable by the HVS. Finally, the available display levels are distributed among the bins proportionate to the pixels counts thus giving due consideration to the visual contribution of each bin in the image. Quality assessment using both quantitative evaluations and user studies suggests that the proposed algorithm produces tone-mapped images that are visually pleasant, and preserve details of the original image better than the existing methods. Finally, implementation details of the algorithm on GPU for parallel processing are presented, which could achieve a significant gain in speed over CPU based implementation.
Yeah, but can it actually help me pick which movie to watch?
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post #1596 of 1650 Old 11-22-2019, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
HSTM is a substantial advancement with DTM that is likely going to remain unrivaled for quite some time.

I've gone back and watched many familiar UHD titles, it's like watching them again for the first time with the veil lifted. every scene looks remarkable and can finally enjoy an HDR movie end to end without thinking about how it could have been better.

envy owners are certainly going to benefit from the amazing commitment of the forum members helping tune the curves, literally on on a hourly basis until HDR perfection is achieved. major kudos to everyone investing their time in this excellent product.
When I got to see HSTM for the first time I considered it as an important milestone as well. Also Ekki made a very clear statement about HSTM in his report. I couldn't agree more. Since I am going to buy an Envy I thought that it would pay off to invest some time into optimize HSTM now. I really wanted to have a good preset on the Envy that I'd like. I think that's now garanteed.

Yesterday I had a look on various HDR scenes. I compared several HSTM settings to HSTM off. With HSTM it was far better. More contrast, clearer details, more pop. Like a veil got removed. Projector was a Sony VW760, 82 nits, screen width is 3.5 m. It was clearly the best picture that I have ever seen projected. IMO proper HDR tonemapping has a huge impact on picture quality. I have friends with a Sony VW5000 or Sim2 projectors all being considerably more expensive. IMO it's a waste of money not to run them with madVR. We all know how important calibration is. For HDR to have the best possible tonemapping is IMO even more important.
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post #1597 of 1650 Old 11-22-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
When I got to see HSTM for the first time I considered it as an important milestone as well. Also Ekki made a very clear statement about HSTM in his report. I couldn't agree more. Since I am going to buy an Envy I thought that it would pay off to invest some time into optimize HSTM now. I really wanted to have a good preset on the Envy that I'd like. I think that's now garanteed.

Yesterday I had a look on various HDR scenes. I compared several HSTM settings to HSTM off. With HSTM it was far better. More contrast, clearer details, more pop. Like a veil got removed. Projector was a Sony VW760, 82 nits, screen width is 3.5 m. It was clearly the best picture that I have ever seen projected. IMO proper HDR tonemapping has a huge impact on picture quality. I have friends with a Sony VW5000 or Sim2 projectors all being considerably more expensive. IMO it's a waste of money not to run them with madVR. We all know how important calibration is. For HDR to have the best possible tonemapping is IMO even more important.
i m willing to bet that ur Sony VW760 with latest madVR looks better than ur friend's Sony VW5000 without it.

Now VW5000 with madVR is another story

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post #1598 of 1650 Old 11-23-2019, 08:58 AM
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Sorry this is probably somewhere in the thread (tried to search but I can’t find the info), but what is the size for the Envy box, or is the design of the actual box not final?
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post #1599 of 1650 Old 11-23-2019, 06:02 PM
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Sorry this is probably somewhere in the thread (tried to search but I can’t find the info), but what is the size for the Envy box, or is the design of the actual box not final?
17.32" (W) x 6.89" (H) x 17.13" (D). Rack mountable, 4RU.
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post #1600 of 1650 Old 11-25-2019, 11:58 AM
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17.32" (W) x 6.89" (H) x 17.13" (D). Rack mountable, 4RU.

So both the Basic and Pro model will have same size?

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post #1601 of 1650 Old 11-25-2019, 10:49 PM
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So both the Basic and Pro model will have same size?
Yes, you got it.
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post #1602 of 1650 Old 11-29-2019, 03:19 PM
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post #1603 of 1650 Old 11-30-2019, 12:49 AM
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I think the report by W.Mayer is a great example why even the best setups and projectors will profit by the Envy: smarter tonemapping allows reducing laser output (therefore better black floor), and better differentiated highlights. Like I said: when you own such expensive projectors you wouldn't like to use anything else than the best tonemapping solution on the market. "Hope I can get one unit soon."

P.S. It is also a great example why I said here :
Quote:
So my advice to madVR is to go out to the important dealer / installer to demonstrate that you are indeed better than anybody on the market.
Seeing is believing ...





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post #1604 of 1650 Old 11-30-2019, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I think the report by W.Mayer is a great example why even the best setups and projectors will profit by the Envy: smarter tonemapping allows reducing laser output (therefore better black floor), and better differentiated highlights. Like I said: when you own such expensive projectors you wouldn't like to use anything else than the best tonemapping solution on the market. "Hope I can get one unit soon."

P.S. It is also a great example why I said here :
Seeing is believing ...





also Mori this is a great shift from 2 years ago , when everybody was asking for brighter projectors to do HDR well , now with madVR even if u have a bright projector u lower the light output to get better blacks and u would even have brighter picture at the same time, really game changing specially for projetors.

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post #1605 of 1650 Old 11-30-2019, 02:50 AM
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@tnaik4
Yes, and furthermore this may also influence your the screen selection: because people have often suffered by dim HDR reproduction they have gone for screens with higher gains (or bought expensive anamorphic lense systems that increase brightness). Potential problems with high gain screens are sparkles and hotspot (besides increased black floor). So when I had realized that HDR tonemapping is likely becoming better by time I started to advice not to go for too high gain screens anymore ...
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post #1606 of 1650 Old 11-30-2019, 04:43 AM
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It's a shame it sounds like the Lumagen W.Meyer was shown was running the first version of firmware to add the Adaptive HDR feature - current advice is to disable that feature on that version because of the luminance jumps. There was a beta available that fixes the issues. Sounds like he didn't get to be able to look past that issue.

I'd love to see some more comparisons.
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post #1607 of 1650 Old 12-02-2019, 05:41 PM
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I'm sure at some point a proper comparison of the Envy and Radiance will happen. It is only a matter of time. Both solutions would be a big improvement over projector tone mapping available today (JVC is the only one doing anything approaching dynamic). Glad to see more people realizing that a bright projector is not what is needed for good HDR, I felt like I was hitting a wall on that for a long time. Still excited to see what the Envy brings to the market!
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post #1608 of 1650 Old 12-03-2019, 12:42 AM
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I'm sure at some point a proper comparison of the Envy and Radiance will happen. It is only a matter of time.

Still excited to see what the Envy brings to the market!
Hi Kris, myself being a current user of madVR via HTPC , and having seen the DTM via the Lumagen, i think your in for a "pleasent" surprise..
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post #1609 of 1650 Old 12-03-2019, 01:51 PM
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Hi Kris, myself being a current user of madVR via HTPC , and having seen the DTM via the Lumagen, i think your in for a "pleasent" surprise..
Lumagen has a new firmware coming soon though, right?

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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
HSTM is a substantial advancement with DTM that is likely going to remain unrivaled for quite some time.
Is HSTM proprietary or does Lumagen do something similar? Also, is HSTM unlikely to be implemented by JVC (in projectors) or perhaps even Panasonic (in UHD player)?

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post #1611 of 1650 Old 12-03-2019, 03:01 PM
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Is HSTM proprietary or does Lumagen do something similar? Also, is HSTM unlikely to be implemented by JVC (in projectors) or perhaps even Panasonic (in UHD player)?


Tone mapping based on a histogram is not proprietary and I see no reason why other companies couldn’t do something similar in their tone-mapping algorithms.
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post #1612 of 1650 Old 12-03-2019, 03:52 PM
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Tone mapping based on a histogram is not proprietary and I see no reason why other companies couldn’t do something similar in their tone-mapping algorithms.
If I recall, it was mentioned recently that this method was now patented. even if possible, it would be curious if the FPGA in the competing products have the computational horsepower to do it effectively.
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post #1613 of 1650 Old 12-03-2019, 04:21 PM
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If I recall, it was mentioned recently that this method was now patented. even if possible, it would be curious if the FPGA in the competing products have the computational horsepower to do it effectively.
You can't patent histogram-based tone-mapping. Histogram-based tone-mapping has been a concept for well over a decade. It's not a new or unique idea or concept at all. It predates HDR and all that. It's an old computer graphics concept and was used in HDR photography long before HDR video even existed. If it was possible to patent, it would have been patented decades ago by nobody even related to the video processing industry.

It would be like patenting frame interpolation.

Histogram-based or histogram-shaped tone-mapping is just a general mathematical concept.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/re...vel-histogram-

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5397652

https://www.cs.utah.edu/~shirley/papers/gi93.pdf

You can certainly patent a specific implementation of a histogram-based tone-mapping algorithm, but that's about it. There is no telling whether the specific implemented algorithm in madVR is even the best possible implementation of a histogram-based tone-mapping approach. It certainly could be the best so far, or the best at doing it in real-time, or the best in a consumer product. However there is nothing stopping someone from using a generic histogram approach to shape their own tone-mapping math and algorithm. madVR is certainly not the first software to even do it.

Also there is nothing very computationally intensive about histogram-based tone-mapping. The only real intensive part is the data gathering, the measuring of each frame. If someone really wanted to, they could design a relatively inexpensive chip to do this. If a device already has the horsepower to measure the frames and apply a dynamic frame-by-frame tone-mapping solution, then using a histogram to dictate the shape of the tone mapping curve is not adding all that much to the computation intensiveness.
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post #1614 of 1650 Old 12-03-2019, 04:38 PM
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HDMI2.1 output?
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HDMI2.1 output?


Not at first, but at a later upgrade.

They are limited by what nVidia GPUs have for HDMI outputs.
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You can't patent histogram-based tone-mapping..
perhaps but there is a difference between saying it's possible and actually doing it.. and doing it well.

When the rubber meets the road, good luck to the others trying to emulate what has been accomplished here. With excellent feedback coming in from all over the world and continuous visible improvements.
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post #1617 of 1650 Old 12-03-2019, 07:46 PM
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It's highly unlikely anyone is going to (easily) replicate what madvr can do. Tone mapping has been in the works for well over a year now. HSTM has taken weeks and weeks of intensive user testing to find the best settings. And that's just one part of what madvr does for tone mapping. (Yes, it's been one of the most dramatic in terms of picture enhancement, I'll grant you, but, it's hardly sitting alone). There's a reason that madvr tone mapping takes so much GPU power....it's because it's doing a LOT to keep the best possible picture quality while keeping director intent. That last part is important. Because while tone mapping can be done by all kinds of different devices, ensuring you don't "overcook" the picture is very important. Personally I want for a day when tone mapping is no longer required and we can watch all this content natively on our 10000 nit displays. Until then, I will be using madvr's exceptional tone mapping. It keeps getting better and better each iteration. The best part about that concept is that the Envy will get each update as things are improved. Fantastic.
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post #1618 of 1650 Old 12-04-2019, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
perhaps but there is a difference between saying it's possible and actually doing it.. and doing it well.

When the rubber meets the road, good luck to the others trying to emulate what has been accomplished here. With excellent feedback coming in from all over the world and continuous visible improvements.

From seeing both the Lumagen and madVR in my setup.....i am even more impressed now with what madVR provides image wise than before ....

"IF" the Envy improves opon what the PC verison of what madVR achieves, those that purchase the Envy will be VERY VERY happy campers!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
perhaps but there is a difference between saying it's possible and actually doing it.. and doing it well.

When the rubber meets the road, good luck to the others trying to emulate what has been accomplished here. With excellent feedback coming in from all over the world and continuous visible improvements.

From seeing both the Lumagen and madVR in my setup.....i am even more impressed now with what madVR provides image wise than before ....[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

"IF" the Envy improves opon what the PC verison of what madVR achieves, those that purchase the Envy will be VERY VERY happy campers!![IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I was really looking forward to get the Envy , at least the 5k version , but since i am a huge gamer, and Madshi's comment about it not being good for gaming since it add significant lag made me look at the radiance pro.
Will always use madVR / HTPC combo for my movies and i doubt anything will come close to it, was drooling at the fact of using its feature with HDR gaming but that is out of the window now unless they improve the lag.

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and the radiance will add latency too so. an inbetween processing box will simply add a noticeable input lag that's just as it is.
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