madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 58 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 2748 Old 01-14-2020, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
Anything at ALL??


I didn’t bother going this year. Cedia is where it’s at man !


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post #1712 of 2748 Old 01-14-2020, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I am guessing that Madshi is probably busy getting results from beta testers and addressing issues found, and the beta testers are under NDA.
Indeed claw, the beta is going extremely well and smooth. As you have guessed, things are very busy aka https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...l#post59064764 and are only getting busier . Supply will be limited especially early. Those wanting an Envy - we really appreciate the great interest and the best path for that is to sign up on the Envy Buyer Interest List if you haven't already. We will be sending announcements to that list soon. There's a link to it at the top of the madVR Labs LLC web site (which you can also find your way easily to from the madVR web site). Note that this is a different list than the general madVR Envy mailing list. Thanks again for the all the support guys.
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post #1713 of 2748 Old 01-15-2020, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I didn’t bother going this year. Cedia is where it’s at man !


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Oh, I wasn't concerned with CES. That was the person before me. I was wanting to know if there was any news on the Envy yet or maybe from a tester.

Yes, Cedia is where it's at!
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post #1714 of 2748 Old 01-17-2020, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
3) Haha - thanks for considering that valuable! I would, if I could, and if you really wanted that. But it looks like the boxes are going to be built in the USA, while I'm located in Germany. So they won't actually go through my hands at all.
Scan your signature and get the front plate laser carved.
Or get a nicely designed plate, sign on it and send them to the production so they can add it on the front plate.

May be cool for the first 10 buyers and/or beta testers to get some distinction.
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post #1715 of 2748 Old 01-17-2020, 10:22 AM
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or you don't do that and spend all your time and effort to make it a better product.
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post #1716 of 2748 Old 01-26-2020, 10:10 AM
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@madshi

Will any of the Envy models come with some type of Aspect Ratio management where the user can save different AR modes for the purpose of not having to use the zoom on the projector when switching from 16:9 to scope as an example?

If not, is this something you can consider adding as a feature ahead?

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post #1717 of 2748 Old 01-26-2020, 10:30 AM
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madVR is able to do that so would be odd if that would be missing in the envy.
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post #1718 of 2748 Old 02-01-2020, 12:19 PM
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Envy availability update

Hi guys - The private Envy beta has been going great. Reports have been excellent and we've squashed the few bugs that have come up. The next (and last) round of beta units ship out in a few days. We have a couple of small things left to add, like auto updates, which we'll do while awaiting feedback from these next beta testers. Assuming that goes well, we will start shipping this month! Preference (but not a guarantee, as it can depend on your location, distributors/dealers and general availability which will be tight initially) will be given to those who have joined Envy Buyers Interest List, available for signup on our website. As a little teaser I've attached a picture of our remote control (which supports both IR and RF, and yes, Envy will support IP control and automation such as Crestron very soon). And in case you’re wondering, the button with the screen and arrow is for virtual inputs and profiles.

In other news, we have a big announcement going out to the Envy mailing list this weekend! Thanks for your continued support and we're excited to be coming down the home stretch.
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post #1719 of 2748 Old 02-01-2020, 04:36 PM
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Excellent news - thanks !


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post #1720 of 2748 Old 02-02-2020, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
I would fly out to Germany just to get mine signed....
Hehe, you're welcome to come for a visit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
Will the base model in the years to come stay up with the latest generation video cards? Not rtalking about a hardware upgrade after an Envy base was already bought, but what if somebody decides to wait another year before buying, will that person get and RTX 30xx instead of an RTX 20xx?
It's very likely we'll switch to 30xx generation at some point to get HDMI 2.1 output. In the "years to come" after that I don't really know what will happen. I assume that 5 years from now 30xx generation may no longer be produced, so we can't stay with 30xx forever. But I can't predict right now how often and how quickly we will upgrade to new GPU generations. Or if we will even stick with Nvidia at all in the long run.

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Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
Is it possible to either have the MadVR envy either send the signal to the projector via IR or somehow tell my control4 to send a signal to change the projector using rs-232 connection it currently has.?
You mean HDR vs SDR?

What I can say is that Envy will have IP control functionality. I'm not sure what kind of control4 system you have, if it supports IP control? In theory control4 could connect to Envy to be notified about all kinds of events, like the source device switching between HDR <-> SDR and then control4 could switch your projector using rs-232. Does that make sense? I'm not an expert on control4, though, so I'm not sure if the hardware you have supports getting notifications from Envy via IP control.

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Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
And what about the OSD of the receiver? anyway to input that and show that? Or is the only way to do device --> receiver> MadVR? I found that when I did that, HDMI handshake slowed things quite a bit when appletv or nvidia was switching between HDR, non HDR or 24HZ or 60HZ content with the lumagen.
I can't comment on your Lumagen experience, but we're reasonably happy with how handshaking works through a receiver with the Envy. That's just testing with one specific brand of AVR atm, though (Marantz in this case), so it might make sense to wait for user reports on handshaking speed.

FYI, there's one issue we've run into with our recommended device -> receiver -> Envy -> display chain: The OSD of the receiver can actually screw up the automatic aspect ratio detection - e.g. imagine the OSD being drawn into the black bar of a scope movie! But I'm hoping to find a way to work around that somehow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robena View Post
Can the Envy convert SDR to HDR REC 2020 the way a Dune Pro does (but better of course)?
What does the Dune Pro do there exactly?

Envy can without any problem receive BT.709 content and send it out as BT.2020, but actually this will just "reformat" the pixels, it will not actually modify the saturation in any way. So although the pixels will be sent as BT.2020, they will only use the BT.709 "sub area" within the BT.2020 gamut. So I assume it will not look any different than sending them as BT.709 to the display.

Envy currently does not support sending SDR content to the display converted to HDR. In my experience doing that would actually make things look worse, because the display would apply tone mapping, which would harm the image quality. Why would you want to do that?

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Originally Posted by BakeApples View Post
Will any of the Envy models come with some type of Aspect Ratio management where the user can save different AR modes for the purpose of not having to use the zoom on the projector when switching from 16:9 to scope as an example?
Both Base and Pro models are able to detect the black bars - and thus the AR - of any incoming video signal automatically. Envy will even detect window boxed content (black bars all around) and handle it properly. There are various options for you to customize the zooming behaviour to make things work completely automatically for you. For example, Envy will automatically zoom the content (even if it has hard coded window boxing) to your screen AR in such a way that you will never get window boxing. Also, you can choose if you want Envy to zoom black bars away (not recommended, but possible), or if you want to always see every pixel of the video signal, with preserved (or even added) black bars if need be. Also, there are various additional options to let you specify exactly how to handle IMAX movies (which are switching between 1.85:1 and scope back & forth in the middle of the movie).
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post #1721 of 2748 Old 02-02-2020, 05:17 AM
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Hello Madshi,

We have an idea of hardware differences between the base and Pro models. Would it be ok to talk more about the software picture processing features and how they differ between both models?

Thanks for all the great work and cant wait to add an envy to my chain!
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post #1722 of 2748 Old 02-02-2020, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What does the Dune Pro do there exactly?

Envy can without any problem receive BT.709 content and send it out as BT.2020, but actually this will just "reformat" the pixels, it will not actually modify the saturation in any way. So although the pixels will be sent as BT.2020, they will only use the BT.709 "sub area" within the BT.2020 gamut. So I assume it will not look any different than sending them as BT.709 to the display.

Envy currently does not support sending SDR content to the display converted to HDR. In my experience doing that would actually make things look worse, because the display would apply tone mapping, which would harm the image quality. Why would you want to do that?
Actually, you should try a Dune pro on an OLED display, you will be surprised how much this conversion improves the apparent dynamic of the image.
The color are not more saturated of course, that would be idiotic and lead to an unwatchable image, but the grey scale is expanded. Also, the Dune cannot fabricate real 10 bit content, so it does not add the details in low and high brightness scenes that HDR does. As you say so well, colors are the same.

With real HDR content, whites subs are too bright and so I use custom subs which would look grey on an SDR video. Their values is is 0x919191 (145 while full white is 255) to look (on my TV) just bright enough.

The Dune conversion does not bring the same dynamic, but still white subs are too bright, so I use 0xAEAEAE (174, so brighter than with a real HDR source).

The effect is an image which has more punch, and does not look unnatural at all. Maybe it brings some banding in some rare scenes, I'm not even sure of that.

Since, unfortunately, 90% of the available material (series+movies) is SDR, that's something that makes the pro be much better with regular HD, so most content, than any other player. There is one brand (I forgot which one) that does the same, but the effect is so small that I don't need to darken the subs, so it's useless.

But the Dune does not do it quite perfectly: it raises the black level too much, so I have to use different settings for upconverted to HDR than for real HDR, by lowering the brightness. That works well only because the OLED has infinite CR, on a PJ I think that losing half the contrast would be disastrous.

I'm sure that if you analyze what the Dune does (again, using an OLED), you can do better to avoid this pitfall and make work it with lower CR devices. And better than the Dune on every aspect.

Robert

Last edited by robena; 02-02-2020 at 05:25 AM.
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post #1723 of 2748 Old 02-02-2020, 09:06 AM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Hi guys - The private Envy beta has been going great. Reports have been excellent and we've squashed the few bugs that have come up. The next (and last) round of beta units ship out in a few days. We have a couple of small things left to add, like auto updates, which we'll do while awaiting feedback from these next beta testers. Assuming that goes well, we will start shipping this month! Preference (but not a guarantee, as it can depend on your location, distributors/dealers and general availability which will be tight initially) will be given to those who have joined Envy Buyers Interest List, available for signup on our website. As a little teaser I've attached a picture of our remote control (which supports both IR and RF, and yes, Envy will support IP control and automation such as Crestron very soon). And in case you’re wondering, the button with the screen and arrow is for virtual inputs and profiles.

In other news, we have a big announcement going out to the Envy mailing list this weekend! Thanks for your continued support and we're excited to be coming down the home stretch.
I'm pleased that things are going well for you guys.

Nice remote

Terry
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post #1724 of 2748 Old 02-03-2020, 12:42 PM
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Thanks for the updates, good to hear. What was the big announcement over the weekend? (I guess I wasn't yet signed up to the list)

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post #1725 of 2748 Old 02-03-2020, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by robl2 View Post
Thanks for the updates, good to hear. What was the big announcement over the weekend? (I guess I wasn't yet signed up to the list)
The Envy Pro will be showcased with a demo at ISE 2020 in Amsterdam, 2/11 - 2/14.
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post #1726 of 2748 Old 02-04-2020, 09:30 AM
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The Envy Pro will be showcased with a demo at ISE 2020 in Amsterdam, 2/11 - 2/14.
Thanks Josh!

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post #1727 of 2748 Old 02-10-2020, 11:37 AM
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post #1728 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 12:47 AM
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Hello from ISE 2020!
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post #1729 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 08:39 AM
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With all those Sentinel 10's and what appears to be a Storm preamp in the photo, are you showcasing the Envy in the Alcons Pro-Ribbon booth?

https://www.alconsaudio.com/alcons-e...w-to-remember/

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post #1730 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 09:48 AM
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Greeting to all from ISE 2020!

So I just finished an in depth demonstration of the MadVR Envy at ISE 2020, and yes this is indeed situated within the Alcons Pro-Ribbon booth

In short, the MadVR Envy is absolutely incredible. The demo was utterly mind-blowing. And this is despite the fact that the room was not perfectly blacked out (it's a trade show after all).

A massive congratulations and thank you to both @lovingdvd and @madshi for all their hard work and Mathias' creative genius in developing and bringing these products to market.

The improvements that MadVR Envy makes with respect to the video performance is way, way above and beyond 'just' dynamic tone-mapping with respect to HDR.

The difference in video performance is not slight or subtle.

It's literally as if everything is better. Furthermore, the resultant image that is produced looks practically 3D and the vanillla baseline in comparison extremely 2D. The image looks more real. The colors are better. The luminance dynamic range is very considerably increased. And this is merely the tip of the iceberg.

I have to admit that I was somewhat dubious regarding how effective the claimed artificial intelligence bright highlight and shadow detail recovery and optimisation would actuall be in reality. Furthermore, when I heard that the maximum setting is labelled 'Insane' I took this to be hyperbole... but it's not. Seriously, it really IS completely INSANE! I don't know how @madshi has done it but I am convinced that voodoo is involved!

One particular video clip in this regard was as shocking as being hit in the face with a baseball bat. It was a shot of clouds in the sky on a bright day, wherein with the vanilla a lot of the image is blown out to white, and seriously we are talking about 1/4 of the screen here; and yet the MadVR Envy fixed the image 100% to perfection. There were literally gasps from everyone in the room, myself included.

@lovingdvd and @madshi congratulations again. You have one hell of a product here.

And I hope that I am not going to upset the apple cart by saying this, but I consider it to be important.

There has been very understandably a lot of comparison versus the Lumagen PRO and questioning regards which is better.

Well I am going to answer that question for you.

It's the MadVR Envy, pure and simple. And it's not even close. Seriously, as compared with the Lumagen PRO it's on a totally different level. Which I have to say I was somewhat expecting given the difference in raw processing power for starters, let alone @madshi genius programming and algorithms etc.

Don't get me wrong. The MadVR Envy does not make Lumagen PRO any less or worse of a product that it is; wherein it really is a fantastic product. It's simply that the MadVR Envy is way, way, better.

Personally, I consider the pricing to be absolutely worth it and suffice to say I ordered one immediately on the spot.

I very much look forward to spending some considerable handson time with the MadVR Envy ASAP.

Hands down winner of BEST NEW PRODUCT at ISE 2020!!!

Very, very, well done!!!

.
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post #1731 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x21inc View Post
Would it be ok to talk more about the software picture processing features and how they differ between both models?
That's a very good question. We've been working on a product comparison sheet. Atm it's only meant for distributors and dealers, but we may make it public soon, maybe in a slightly more "polished" version. We're also still taking feedback from distributors and dealers on that work-in-progress feature comparison. So it's not 100% set in stone yet. If you have just a *bit* more patience, we'll have more information pretty soon. I'm sorry that it all takes so long...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robena View Post
Actually, you should try a Dune pro on an OLED display, you will be surprised how much this conversion improves the apparent dynamic of the image.
The color are not more saturated of course, that would be idiotic and lead to an unwatchable image, but the grey scale is expanded. Also, the Dune cannot fabricate real 10 bit content, so it does not add the details in low and high brightness scenes that HDR does. As you say so well, colors are the same.
I'd really like to understand what kind of processing is actually done here, from a technical point of view. My understanding is that "converting" SDR content to HDR should in most cases make the image look "different", but usually worse. So I'm not sure what Dune does exactly. Does anybody know? It can't be very complicated because they don't have a ton of computational power.

I've one thought, though: The LG OLEDs are known to switch into a brighter mode when playing HDR content. So is it possible that the only reason why letting the Dune convert SDR to HDR improves image quality for you is that your OLED switches into a different mode? I've read somewhere that it's possible to force the same mode in the service menu somewhere for SDR content, but I'm not really an expert on LG OLEDs. Would love to have one, though. Maybe some time soon, I don't know...

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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
Nice remote
Thank you! Glad you like it. To be honest, I was a bit worried that users would be put off by our remote having so few buttons. Personally, I like that, but it's simply not usual for a CE device. But fortunately, so far all the feedback I received about the remote was positive. Which I'm relieved about.

In any case, we assume the many users will use their learning remote to replace our's, anyway. But still, we wanted ours to be pretty and effective. It's both IR and RF, btw, not sure if I mentioned that before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
So I just finished an in depth demonstration of the MadVR Envy at ISE 2020, and yes this is indeed situated within the Alcons Pro-Ribbon booth

In short, the MadVR Envy is absolutely incredible. The demo was utterly mind-blowing. And this is despite the fact that the room was not perfectly blacked out (it's a trade show after all).

A massive congratulations and thank you to both @lovingdvd and @madshi for all their hard work and Mathias' creative genius in developing and bringing these products to market.

The improvements that MadVR Envy makes with respect to the video performance is way, way above and beyond 'just' dynamic tone-mapping with respect to HDR.

The difference in video performance is not slight or subtle.

It's literally as if everything is better. Furthermore, the resultant image that is produced looks practically 3D and the vanillla baseline in comparison extremely 2D. The image looks more real. The colors are better. The luminance dynamic range is very considerably increased. And this is merely the tip of the iceberg.

I have to admit that I was somewhat dubious regarding how effective the claimed artificial intelligence bright highlight and shadow detail recovery and optimisation would actuall be in reality. Furthermore, when I heard that the maximum setting is labelled 'Insane' I took this to be hyperbole... but it's not. Seriously, it really IS completely INSANE! I don't know how @madshi has done it but I am convinced that voodoo is involved!

One particular video clip in this regard was as shocking as being hit in the face with a baseball bat. It was a shot of clouds in the sky on a bright day, wherein with the vanilla a lot of the image is blown out to white, and seriously we are talking about 1/4 of the screen here; and yet the MadVR Envy fixed the image 100% to perfection. There were literally gasps from everyone in the room, myself included.

@lovingdvd and @madshi congratulation again. You have one hell of a product here.

And I hope that I am not going to upset the apple cart by saying this, but I consider it to be important.

There has been very understandably a lot of comparison versus the Lumagen PRO and questioning regards which is better.

Well I am going to answer that question for you.

It's the MadVR Envy, pure and simple; and it's not even close. Seriously, as compared with the Lumagen PRO it's on a totally different level. Which I have to say I was somewhat expecting given the difference in raw processing power for starters, let alone @madshi genius programming and algorithms etc.

Don't get me wrong. The MadVR Envy does not make Lumagen PRO any less or worse of a product that it is; wherein it really is a fantastic product. It's simply that the MadVR Envy is way, way, better.

Personally, I consider the pricing to be absolutely worth it and suffice to say I ordered one immediately on the spot.

I very much look forward to spending some considerable handson time with the MadVR Envy ASAP.

Hands down winner of BEST NEW PRODUCT at ISE 2020!!!

Very, very, well done!!!
@ Nigel, thank you *very* much for the positive feedback. I'm happy to have you in "our corner"...

Last edited by madshi; 02-11-2020 at 10:23 AM.
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post #1732 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 10:15 AM
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Damn you @madshi and @ARROW-AV ,

I just paid off ALL my credit cards and now I have to find a way to save up for one after that incredible review.
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post #1733 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 10:33 AM
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post #1734 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 10:38 AM
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Thanks for sharing that feedback. It's pretty much what I think most of us here were expecting, especially those of us that use madvr on some hefty PC hardware. Really exciting to see things moving forward and such glowing reviews so far. Well done guys!

LG C8 OLED | Pioneer VSX-LX303 | HTPC (9900k, RTX 2070) | nVidia SHIELD 2019 | Panasonic UB820
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post #1735 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 10:40 AM
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@ARROW-AV Have you seen MADVR previously or is the Envy your first go with it? This is an extremely positive review.

Was the demo showcasing only Tonemapping? Or other features as well?

Based on the pricing structure of the Envy, and my need/want to build a new PC anyway I've been considering just running MadVR on a PC, but interested in the envy as well. From previously, stated they should be the same, besides hardware components?
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post #1736 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Hello from ISE 2020!

Stacked like this, the Envy Pro somehow looks even more monstrous than the last photo from a few months ago. Do we have the dimensions yet? Is the base model going to be the same size as the Pro? I think I'd have to custom build a shelf for it.

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post #1737 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

Hands down winner of BEST NEW PRODUCT at ISE 2020!!!

Very, very, well done!!!

.
Great feedback Nigel...
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post #1738 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I'd really like to understand what kind of processing is actually done here, from a technical point of view. My understanding is that "converting" SDR content to HDR should in most cases make the image look "different", but usually worse. So I'm not sure what Dune does exactly. Does anybody know? It can't be very complicated because they don't have a ton of computational power.

I've one thought, though: The LG OLEDs are known to switch into a brighter mode when playing HDR content. So is it possible that the only reason why letting the Dune convert SDR to HDR improves image quality for you is that your OLED switches into a different mode? I've read somewhere that it's possible to force the same mode in the service menu somewhere for SDR content, but I'm not really an expert on LG OLEDs. Would love to have one, though. Maybe some time soon, I don't know...
You are 100% right, when I use the conversion, I have to lower the brightness by 50% to make it ok. But that's all, every other setting is the same as for UHD. Since the LG does not have several memory banks by input (idiots!), I use a Vertex to split the signal, and 2 different inputs.

So, I'm not impressed just by it being bright, since I compensate for that.

As I said, white subs need to be grey not to be blinding, even with the brightness lowered, similar but less than with real HDR content, so something special is done.

One important question for me: how is the noise level of the box? Similar to a PC with the same components or were you able to hush it?

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post #1739 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 12:59 PM
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Greeting to all from ISE 2020!



So I just finished an in depth demonstration of the MadVR Envy at ISE 2020, and yes this is indeed situated within the Alcons Pro-Ribbon booth



In short, the MadVR Envy is absolutely incredible. The demo was utterly mind-blowing. And this is despite the fact that the room was not perfectly blacked out (it's a trade show after all).

.



Hands down winner of BEST NEW PRODUCT at 2020!!!



Very, very, well done!!!



.

Have you seen MadVR as well? Just wondering if Envy in terms of performance as good or better than HTPC with MadVR ... with the obvious and huge advantage of being plug and play to any source. All my content is in a HTPC and you am wondering if Envy adds a lot more value over my HTPC.

Between HTPC with MadVR and With the DTM in NX series now I am having a very hard time judging the performance gain and pulling out the credit card to hit purchase!

Any enlightened view would be much appreciated



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post #1740 of 2748 Old 02-11-2020, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Have you seen MadVR as well? Just wondering if Envy in terms of performance as good or better than HTPC with MadVR ... with the obvious and huge advantage of being plug and play to any source. All my content is in a HTPC and you am wondering if Envy adds a lot more value over my HTPC.

Between HTPC with MadVR and With the DTM in NX series now I am having a very hard time judging the performance gain and pulling out the credit card to hit purchase!

Any enlightened view would be much appreciated



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If you want to DTM content from AppleTV, an Nvidia Shield, Amazon Prime, Netflix, Roku, etc... you will need the Envy over the HTPC since the latter cannot DTM those. As far as the JVC DTM (RS & NX series), I have done side-by-side and there is no comparison to MadVR. I know people will say they are close but NOPE! Give me MadVR DTM every single time.
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