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post #1831 of 2745 Old 02-17-2020, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
So suggested retail on the lower end Envy is around $5,000 and the Pro is just under $10,000 correct?


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I thought the Envy base was $5,495.
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post #1832 of 2745 Old 02-17-2020, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
I thought the Envy base was $5,495.

Thanks I believe you are correct.

I guess I could purchase the “low end” version instead of buying a new 4K projector if the image will be that much improved. It will be interesting to see the reviews.


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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
I thought the Envy base was $5,495.
The base model is being called the Envy pro. There is not a name yet for the higher priced model. I know I was confused because the original press release stated the Envy Pro was the upper tier model and the more expensive model.Click image for larger version

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Obviously it's going to be called the Envy Extreme! LMAO (Yes, this is a joke....)

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post #1835 of 2745 Old 02-17-2020, 01:56 PM
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Are there dealers for Envy in this crazy north country called Canada ?


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Are there dealers for Envy in this crazy north country called Canada ?


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Honestly I am not sure of the sales and marketing strategy at this point. Is their a dealer network, internet direct, chosen AV professionals with already established sales base, etc. ? I wish I knew.

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madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread!

Will we need to compensate for the slight image delay due to processing in order to maintain lip sync ?

And i assume the delay is not perfectly constant ( due to differing levels of adjustments added based on each frame) or is it ?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Honestly I am not sure of the sales and marketing strategy at this point. Is their a dealer network, internet direct, chosen AV professionals with already established sales base, etc. ? I wish I knew.

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So... @madshi et al : how do we buy your product ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Will we need to compensate for the slight image delay due to processing in order to maintain lip sync ?

And i assume the delay is not perfectly constant ( due to differing levels of adjustments added based on each frame) or is it ?


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Yes, that is something I'm concerned about. Constant (and especially if it is given as a figure from the device) would be preferred so I could just adjust the profile on the AVR and all done. If it is all over the place, frankly I'm going to get pretty sick of using it... I don't really want to have to deal with some other switching device before it so it just feeds the AVR. I'd rather have it at the projector end of the room.
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Hi Guys

The two versions of the Envy are Base and the Pro with Pro offering considerably extended processing capabilities for future planned algorithms.

A lot of work has been done by the team since the high pressure launch at CEDIA and there were much better plans in place for go to market. It would be best not to speculate on launch plans or pricing until they are officially confirmed by MadVR.

It is really hard to bring such a powerful and complex system to market and ensure that it can be properly supported by good partners and those are not just technical challenges.

I was extremely impressed by the performance of the headline features such as DRM, highlight recovery etc but all those other non video features are important as well. I have been solidly reassured by the roadmap I seen and with the skills of the team and the advantages of the “Trinnov Style” general platform making updates fast and new ideas entirely possible to implement. I will also say the gui was a joy to behold in all its simple and logically designed glory!!!
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Originally Posted by blake View Post
So... @madshi et al : how do we buy your product ?
Thanks for your interest blake! The best bet is to join the Buyer Interest List. You can find it by going to the madVR Labs corporate website or from the link to the corporate website from the general madvr site. Getting on this list is not a guarantee to get one right at launch because supply will be limited, and it will be somewhat dependant on location as well. But Envy will be available in Canada (and worldwide, mostly) and in fact Canada seems to be good for beta testing even.
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Could someone please explain the concept of "highlight recovery"? The term was recently used in the discussion of the S&M UHD disc when commenting on the horses in the snow. Thanks!

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Could someone please explain the concept of "highlight recovery"? Thanks!
I think of it in Photoshop terms, which while it might not be an exact analogy, probably comes close enough.

If you take a photo of a scene with a very wide dynamic range, the camera will have a hard time capturing the full range. If you're shooting Jpeg, the camera will process an image, and the whites may be clipped, with blown out highlights (think clouds for example). If you shoot in Raw Format, and take the image into Photoshop, you can use the Shadow & Highlights Tool to 'recover' the detail that is lost in the Jpeg, but still present in the Raw file, since it can capture a wider range than the Jpeg.

You can then make adjustments there, such that the highlights previously clipped are now recovered, with detail present, vs just detail-less whited out space.

I know nothing about how MadVR is doing its processing, but people speak of the 'Histogram' approach it uses as being somewhat revolutionary. Histograms are obviously of crucial importance when processing images in Photoshop, so this suggests to me that this analogy might not be too far off the mark.
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Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post
Hi Guys

The two versions of the Envy are Base and the Pro with Pro offering considerably extended processing capabilities for future planned algorithms.

A lot of work has been done by the team since the high pressure launch at CEDIA and there were much better plans in place for go to market. It would be best not to speculate on launch plans or pricing until they are officially confirmed by MadVR.

It is really hard to bring such a powerful and complex system to market and ensure that it can be properly supported by good partners and those are not just technical challenges.

I was extremely impressed by the performance of the headline features such as DRM, highlight recovery etc but all those other non video features are important as well. I have been solidly reassured by the roadmap I seen and with the skills of the team and the advantages of the “Trinnov Style” general platform making updates fast and new ideas entirely possible to implement. I will also say the gui was a joy to behold in all its simple and logically designed glory!!!
Are you positive the models are base and pro with Pro being the more robust model?

Several people who attended the demo last week indicated the base model was to be called Pro and the more expensive model has yet to be named.

I know that the September press release stated Base and Pro but that seems to have been changed. Maybe Base was too generic a term for a $5500 video processor?

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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Will we need to compensate for the slight image delay due to processing in order to maintain lip sync ?

And i assume the delay is not perfectly constant ( due to differing levels of adjustments added based on each frame) or is it ?
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Yes, that is something I'm concerned about. Constant (and especially if it is given as a figure from the device) would be preferred so I could just adjust the profile on the AVR and all done. If it is all over the place, frankly I'm going to get pretty sick of using it... I don't really want to have to deal with some other switching device before it so it just feeds the AVR. I'd rather have it at the projector end of the room.
I really don't think we will have to deal with multiple delays. There will incur a delay just running the device, but it has to keep up rendering to within the time frame of 1 frame. Adding more algorithms cant cause that to increase or it would never be able to keep up. So at 24fps, running with processing or without should still render the frame in 42ms either way. You should be able to add a single delay to your AVR.
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I really don't think we will have to deal with multiple delays. There will incur a delay just running the device, but it has to keep up rendering to within the time frame of 1 frame. Adding more algorithms cant cause that to increase or it would never be able to keep up. So at 24fps, running with processing or without should still render the frame in 42ms either way. You should be able to add a single delay to your AVR.
I think the "issue" is that your minimum video delay through the device is likely fixed in terms of some number of frames, which of course have different duration depending on frame rate. You might want to be able to add a video delay to 60fps to bring it into line with 24fps pipeline delay, otherwise you may need different lipsync settings for the framerates. At a design level you could choose to always delay 60fps to match 24fps pipeline delay. To be honest I don't watch enough 60fps to care though...

I think @madshi mentioned the total delay through the system is more than 1 frame, which makes sense. You have to first have at least the entire frame to be able to make a tone mapping decision based on that frame, which means if the frame content will be altered based on that information you can't start outputting it until you've assessed it as a whole, and then performed the adjustments. If you were brave you could start outputting it I guess as soon as the first pixels are processed; however as the video input and output clocks aren't locked though from discussions earlier - you have to have a small buffer between input and output to prevent running out of video data as the clocks drift relative to each other.

Whether that relative clock drift causes a noticeable drift in lipsync is something I guess we'll find out more about later. I'm sure it will be measurable over time, but might not be noticeable.
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Could someone please explain the concept of "highlight recovery"? The term was recently used in the discussion of the S&M UHD disc when commenting on the horses in the snow. Thanks!
HDR highlights and in general parts of an HDR image that contain very brightly encoded data like close to 1000 or 4000 or even 10000 nits tend to lose their details with tone-mapping to low nit levels like projectors have (think like 50-150 nits). Highlight recovery restores the details in these HDR highlight areas (so they are not clipped anymore) without affecting any other part of the the image.
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Are you positive the models are base and pro with Pro being the more robust model?

Several people who attended the demo last week indicated the base model was to be called Pro and the more expensive model has yet to be named.

I know that the September press release stated Base and Pro but that seems to have been changed. Maybe Base was too generic a term for a $5500 video processor?

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Well I was also there and have spent quite a bit of time in discussion with the commercial guys. All the internal documents use Pro and Base to differentiate between models. Perhaps simply MadVR Envy and MadVR Envy Pro would be the best way to think of it.

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Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post
Well I was also there and have spent quite a bit of time in discussion with the commercial guys. All the internal documents use Pro and Base to differentiate between models. Perhaps simply MadVR Envy and MadVR Envy Pro would be the best way to think of it.



One man knows for sure and he posted a couple of messages up the thread - @lovingdvd
Thank you for your response. There seems to be some confusion. I appreciate your input.

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I guess the comparison is more of an indictment of how shockingly bad the tone mapping capabilities of the flagship Sony projector are for the money!

You can see clearly it is awful without the Envy. It's hard to make any sort of qualitative judgement really of the Envy pic. In isolation it looks nice (with the exception of the odd pink posterisation which I'm sure must be a photo artifact...); compared to the original stock footage (is that even a fair thing to do?) at MammothHD ( https://www.mammothhd.com/8K/8KGalle...D8_vv2517.html ) the photo at least seems to over-represent the detail in the background (it is much more contrasty and "present") and loses some of the differentiation in tone of the horses. When I looked on my own setup (with a Lumagen) those elements look more like the stock footage linked, with the colours distinct, and the background detail present but not strongly defined.

More than anything it really serves to show to me just how little use photos often are. This photo raises more questions that it answers when you dig into it (at least for me); there can clearly be no substitute for seeing in person. Look forward to someone in the UK having it on demo.
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
I would have liked to see a side by side between the base model Envy and the Pro. There is a price difference of about $5000 MSRP between the two. I know one of the major differences is the ability for the Pro to have hardware upgrades in the future I believe not just upgrades for the software via firmware updates.

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Surely, if it is working like that now, why would it need new hardware? That to me means that if the lower model performs like that, then it will be the one to go for.

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Better trademark that @ARROW-AV cause that is my vote for the name!!!
My name for it would be the 'Envy Ultimate'. Nick name: 'The Greenwith ….'

Or failing that 'Envy Mc Envyface'.

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My name for it would be the 'Envy Ultimate'. Nick name: 'The Greenwith ….'



Or failing that 'Envy Mc Envyface'.
My name for the top model is the madVR Resentment. @madshi what do you think?

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Surely, if it is working like that now, why would it need new hardware? That to me means that if the lower model performs like that, then it will be the one to go for.
in the original discussion between the base and pro, the base could run the MadVR features available today at max settings for 24 frame content and some compromises with 60 frame content. the pro could run 60 frame with max settings + future upgrades.

Nvidia 2080Ti is top dog today but they are announcing their next gen 7nm products soon and could be 50% faster than the current Turing series. New software updates to the pro model could take advantage of the extra horsepower, offer new features, etc.

being able to upgrade an HTPC + MadVR with a faster GPU is a great option and glad they are offering this ability for the Envy Pro model which adds extra future-proofing.
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Could someone please explain the concept of "highlight recovery"? The term was recently used in the discussion of the S&M UHD disc when commenting on the horses in the snow. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
I think of it in Photoshop terms, which while it might not be an exact analogy, probably comes close enough.

If you take a photo of a scene with a very wide dynamic range, the camera will have a hard time capturing the full range. If you're shooting Jpeg, the camera will process an image, and the whites may be clipped, with blown out highlights (think clouds for example). If you shoot in Raw Format, and take the image into Photoshop, you can use the Shadow & Highlights Tool to 'recover' the detail that is lost in the Jpeg, but still present in the Raw file, since it can capture a wider range than the Jpeg.

You can then make adjustments there, such that the highlights previously clipped are now recovered, with detail present, vs just detail-less whited out space.

I know nothing about how MadVR is doing its processing, but people speak of the 'Histogram' approach it uses as being somewhat revolutionary. Histograms are obviously of crucial importance when processing images in Photoshop, so this suggests to me that this analogy might not be too far off the mark.
@DLCPhoto - It sounds like you may be confusing Highlight Recovery with HSTM (Histogram-based DTM). Both these patent-pending algorithms help make madVR unique, but it completely different ways.

@docrog and all - The best way to describe Highlight Recovery is to consider the compression that happens to highlights as a result of tone mapping... Let's say you have an explosion or very bright highlights with two adjacent pixels, one encoded at 3000 nits and one at 4000 nits. This 1000 nit difference is very significant and would be clearly visible on a reference studio monitor that did not need tone mapping, as HDR masters may be typically encoded. Now, a tone mapping curve applies dramatically more compression at the top of the luminance range than it applies in shadow regions. Actually, it might not compress shadow regions at all. But it might apply a 1000:1 compression at the top of the luminance range. So 2 neighboring pixels with 3000 and 4000 nits after tone mapping might actually end up at 39 and 40 nits.

In that case there is a measly one nit difference in brightness between these two pixels, whereas the master had a significant different between the pixels. The result is that there is now no visible difference between these two pixels, and the same thing is happening across a huge number of pixels in the bright areas. This results in a significant loss of resolution in the brightest areas of the image, where we are most concerned about having great detail in a HDR image.

Our Highlight Recovery algorithm helps to prevent this crush, which results in much more defined and detailed highlight regions. In fact, it so effective that often times people incorrectly think that our Highlight Recovery is some sort of sharpening filter, but it is not - rather, it is just preventing the loss of detail that occurs in the highlights otherwise. So yes it does look a lot sharper and more defined, well, because it is, but not because we sharpened it, but because we prevented the loss in the first place. This algorithm is very complex and to do it right and at our quality level requires a tremendous amount of GPU power that only madVR can deliver.

Likewise madVR uses other such techniques to restore damage to the luminance channel, to shadow detail, and contrast, but that's a bit off topic and too much to explain right now.
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I guess the comparison is more of an indictment of how shockingly bad the tone mapping capabilities of the flagship Sony projector are for the money!

You can see clearly it is awful without the Envy. It's hard to make any sort of qualitative judgement really of the Envy pic. In isolation it looks nice (with the exception of the odd pink posterisation which I'm sure must be a photo artifact...); compared to the original stock footage (is that even a fair thing to do?) at MammothHD ( https://www.mammothhd.com/8K/8KGalle...D8_vv2517.html ) the photo at least seems to over-represent the detail in the background (it is much more contrasty and "present") and loses some of the differentiation in tone of the horses. When I looked on my own setup (with a Lumagen) those elements look more like the stock footage linked, with the colours distinct, and the background detail present but not strongly defined.

More than anything it really serves to show to me just how little use photos often are. This photo raises more questions that it answers when you dig into it (at least for me); there can clearly be no substitute for seeing in person. Look forward to someone in the UK having it on demo.
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As do I.
Very soon guys, stay tuned.
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post #1857 of 2745 Old 02-18-2020, 04:15 PM
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I think the "issue" is that your minimum video delay through the device is likely fixed in terms of some number of frames, which of course have different duration depending on frame rate. You might want to be able to add a video delay to 60fps to bring it into line with 24fps pipeline delay, otherwise you may need different lipsync settings for the framerates. At a design level you could choose to always delay 60fps to match 24fps pipeline delay. To be honest I don't watch enough 60fps to care though...

I think @madshi mentioned the total delay through the system is more than 1 frame, which makes sense. You have to first have at least the entire frame to be able to make a tone mapping decision based on that frame, which means if the frame content will be altered based on that information you can't start outputting it until you've assessed it as a whole, and then performed the adjustments. If you were brave you could start outputting it I guess as soon as the first pixels are processed; however as the video input and output clocks aren't locked though from discussions earlier - you have to have a small buffer between input and output to prevent running out of video data as the clocks drift relative to each other.

Whether that relative clock drift causes a noticeable drift in lipsync is something I guess we'll find out more about later. I'm sure it will be measurable over time, but might not be noticeable.
It would be nice if the delay was then constant and given as a specific value in doco, or on the UI, so you could just configure your AVR. If it is trial and error it'd be a little annoying. If different for 24 and 60, a wee bit annoying - but like you I don't watch much 60fps stuff.
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post #1858 of 2745 Old 02-18-2020, 04:25 PM
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@ docrog and all - The best way to describe Highlight Recovery is to consider the compression that happens to highlights as a result of tone mapping... Let's say you have an explosion or very bright highlights with two adjacent pixels, one encoded at 3000 nits and one at 4000 nits. This 1000 nit difference is very significant and would be clearly visible on a reference studio monitor that did not need tone mapping, as HDR masters may be typically encoded. Now, a tone mapping curve applies dramatically more compression at the top of the luminance range than it applies in shadow regions. Actually, it might not compress shadow regions at all. But it might apply a 1000:1 compression at the top of the luminance range. So 2 neighboring pixels with 3000 and 4000 nits after tone mapping might actually end up at 39 and 40 nits.

In that case there is a measly one nit difference in brightness between these two pixels, whereas the master had a significant different between the pixels. The result is that there is now no visible difference between these two pixels, and the same thing is happening across a huge number of pixels in the bright areas. This results in a significant loss of resolution in the brightest areas of the image, where we are most concerned about having great detail in a HDR image.

Our Highlight Recovery algorithm helps to prevent this crush, which results in much more defined and detailed highlight regions. In fact, it so effective that often times people incorrectly think that our Highlight Recovery is some sort of sharpening filter, but it is not - rather, it is just preventing the loss of detail that occurs in the highlights otherwise. So yes it does look a lot sharper and more defined, well, because it is, but not because we sharpened it, but because we prevented the loss in the first place. This algorithm is very complex and to do it right and at our quality level requires a tremendous amount of GPU power that only madVR can deliver.

Likewise madVR users other such techniques to restore damage to the luminance channel, to shadow detail, and contrast,but that's a bit off topic and too much to explain right now.
That is a highly informative and easily digestible explanation, which I truly appreciate! The fact that the algorithm is proprietary makes sense, since a similar concept has never been discussed in the Lumagen Radiance Pro forum. It's been stated that Lumagen essentially substitutes FPGA programming to do tasks which the PC's GPU normally manages. In your opinion, can the properly programmed FPGA ever run those algorithm calculations comparable to madVR????

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post #1859 of 2745 Old 02-18-2020, 09:14 PM
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That is a highly informative and easily digestible explanation, which I truly appreciate! The fact that the algorithm is proprietary makes sense, since a similar concept has never been discussed in the Lumagen Radiance Pro forum. It's been stated that Lumagen essentially substitutes FPGA programming to do tasks which the PC's GPU normally manages. In your experience can the properly programmed FPGA ever run those algorithm calculations comparable to madVR????
Aside from Highlight Recovery being a patent pending technique of ours, there is the matter of required performance. To try and answer your own question you may want to reread my post.
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post #1860 of 2745 Old 02-18-2020, 09:32 PM
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Aside from Highlight Recovery being a patent pending technique of ours, there is the matter of required performance. To try and answer your own question you may want to reread my post.
OK. BTW, I'm unfamiliar with the term "required performance" and I have only the most bare boned understanding of FPGAs, especially whether or not they're capable of emulating high end GPUs (as per my query). Thanks, again, for your primer course!

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