madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 73 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2161 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
M.i.a ??
Everyone has kind of disappeared.

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post #2162 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
everyone has kind of disappeared.

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:d:d:d:d
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post #2163 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 02:43 PM
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Well, I can tell you that I have been testing hours and hours with the new toy, even got a few people over that wanted to have a first hand demo.
all of them where impressed with the extra value that the Envy brings to the table, I wont make the mistake again by posting pictures, been there done that not a good idea :-)
But all I can tell you is that the Envy brings the HDR viewing to another level where you can enjoy and appreciate what the madVR team has been putting together.
I know a lot of you are impatient, I guess that's normal, but the wait will be worth it and every day that goes by Matthias is tweaking and improving the very last details.
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post #2164 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsen View Post
Well, I can tell you that I have been testing hours and hours with the new toy, even got a few people over that wanted to have a first hand demo.

all of them where impressed with the extra value that the Envy brings to the table, I wont make the mistake again by posting pictures, been there done that not a good idea :-)

But all I can tell you is that the Envy brings the HDR viewing to another level where you can enjoy and appreciate what the madVR team has been putting together.

I know a lot of you are impatient, I guess that's normal, but the wait will be worth it and every day that goes by Matthias is tweaking and improving the very last details.
Please do not post any more pictures I don't think I could take it today LOL

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post #2165 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Please do not post any more pictures I don't think I could take it today LOL

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Are you sure, I have some nice ones
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post #2166 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jetsen View Post
Are you sure, I have some nice ones
I would love to see them. You have my email

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post #2167 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 06:46 PM
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Post all the pictures you want with Envy. I am sure they look very good, since MadVR is well respected.
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post #2168 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 08:00 PM
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madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsen View Post
Well, I can tell you that I have been testing hours and hours with the new toy, even got a few people over that wanted to have a first hand demo.

all of them where impressed with the extra value that the Envy brings to the table, I wont make the mistake again by posting pictures, been there done that not a good idea :-)

But all I can tell you is that the Envy brings the HDR viewing to another level where you can enjoy and appreciate what the madVR team has been putting together.

I know a lot of you are impatient, I guess that's normal, but the wait will be worth it and every day that goes by Matthias is tweaking and improving the very last details.


Have you looked at familiar content with the Envy and Lumagen (I believe you have both). Sorry don’t want to make this a comparison thread but it’s an obvious question as they do the same (okay, similar) thing.

How much beyond the Lumagen does the Envy take you in regards to picture quality ? 80 to 100 % 95 to 100%?
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post #2169 of 2495 Old 03-14-2020, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jetsen View Post
... I wont make the mistake again by posting pictures, been there done that not a good idea
Sadly true, this is a demanding crowd. Maybe just post popular movie scenes, without comparing to anything. I'm sure many would love to see them.
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post #2170 of 2495 Old 03-15-2020, 04:32 AM
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I wouldn't poste pictures for at least 3 reasons:
1) judging and comparing HDR pictures on SDR monitors is far from ideal by principle
2) you need a good camera and good skills
3) whenever people don't like the message illustrated by pictures - particularly on AVSforum - there are always some who jump in saying you did not properly calibrate, it was an apple to pears comparison, the setup was not correct and with the new update it was completely different anyway ... yes, sometimes with good reasons but this happenso even when independant and professional calibrators that own and know both apple and pear are reporting

At the moment I am not interested to see any more pictures but to hear any comments for the differences between madVR from PC versus Envy. I understand that the Envy is able to use its hardware resources in a smart and automated way - something the PC software doensn't do. I have a highend PC (incl. 2080 Ti ) and so I don't have too much restrictions in my view. I wonder how the processing of an Envy Pro (the smaller version) compares to a highend PC. Maybe the cheaper Envy can do DTM incl HSTM and some other modest processing as good (or at least nearly as good) as a highend PC. That would be great of course for potential customers. I hope to hear any comments from testers about that soon.
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post #2171 of 2495 Old 03-15-2020, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I wouldn't poste pictures for at least 3 reasons:
1) justing and comparing HDR pictures on SDR monitors is far from ideal by principle
2) you need a good camera and good skills
3) whenever people don't like the message illustrated by pictures - particularly on AVSforum - there are always some who jump in saying you did not properly calibrate, it was an apple to pears comparison, the setup was not correct and with the new update it was completely different anyway ... yes, sometimes with good reasons but this happenso even when independant and professional calibrators that own and know both apple and pear are reporting

At the moment I am not interested to see any more pictures but to hear any comments for the differences between madVR from PC versus Envy. I understand that the Envy is able to use its hardware resources in a smart and automated way - something the PC software doensn't do. I have a highend PC (incl. 2080 Ti ) and so I don't have too much restrictions in my view. I wonder how the processing of an Envy Pro (the smaller version) compares to a highend PC. Maybe the cheaper Envy can do DTM incl HSTM and some other modest processing as good (or at least nearly as good) as a highend PC. That would be great of course for potential customers. I hope to hear any comments from testers about that soon.

I absolutely agree with this
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post #2172 of 2495 Old 03-15-2020, 04:56 AM
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Totally agree. I am much more interested to know about how the units are running in real systems than seeing pictures of pretty much anything (well, I guess from geek point of view a pic of the capture solution would be interesting.). But really pics of video add so little other than noise.

Hopefully we will get to a stage soon where NDAs are lifted and details can flow.

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post #2173 of 2495 Old 03-15-2020, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsen View Post
Are you sure, I have some nice ones
I'm a madVR-HTPC die-hard, but Envy might change my thinking. I'm just curious how it compares to madVR on a PC. An Envy phone pic would work fine for me, plus I have an HDR monitor for viewing. I also trust your photography skills. Probably never be able to see an Envy in person either. So photos are the most I can hope for now, would love to see your photos.

edit: I will PM you my email for pics, if you feel twice shy about uploading here.
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post #2174 of 2495 Old 03-16-2020, 01:40 AM
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I'm a madVR-HTPC die-hard, but Envy might change my thinking. I'm just curious how it compares to madVR on a PC.
As stated before even by madshi himself, at the moment the Envy are mostly based on the same code, so picture quality is more or less identical between the two solutions.
This might change in the future as the Envy software gets new algoriths that probably won´t go into madVR.
However, the Envy automatically provides the optimal settings, whereas for madVR, the users have to fiddle them out for themselves (and probably get non-optimal results).
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post #2175 of 2495 Old 03-16-2020, 01:58 AM
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Do we have even an estimate on date of Envy full release ?
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post #2176 of 2495 Old 03-16-2020, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
... However, the Envy automatically provides the optimal settings, whereas for madVR, the users have to fiddle them out for themselves (and probably get non-optimal results).
This is one of the main reasons why I'm looking at Envy for my next VP purchase. The photos should help substantiate and colabarate the reported findings. I would never buy a $10k VP without some visible proof of concept. If photos/videos are a problem I'll just wait until they are not.

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post #2177 of 2495 Old 03-17-2020, 01:37 AM
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This is one of the main reasons why I'm looking at Envy for my next VP purchase. The photos should help substantiate and colabarate the reported findings. I would never buy a $10k VP without some visible proof of concept. If photos/videos are a problem I'll just wait until they are not.
I would never buy a $10k VP based on photos/videos. You won´t notice a difference on a photo between a madVR HTPC and an Envy.
I would also want to see it in real action before making a buying decision.
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Yes, but like I said my chance of seeing Envy in person is nil and void. I guess I just don’t understand why an online promotion would not work. When I have seen Lumagen (online videos) I can clearly see the magic. Why not Envy?

edit: Talking about Brolicbeast Lumagen posts, as an example. That man is king of AV!

Maybe Madshi should have hired him for marketing!
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post #2179 of 2495 Old 03-18-2020, 01:22 AM
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Yes, but like I said my chance of seeing Envy in person is nil and void. I guess I just don’t understand why an online promotion would not work. When I have seen Lumagen (online videos) I can clearly see the magic. Why not Envy?

Well, in post #2173 , you stated you would like to see the difference between madVR on a PC and the Envy.
And as said multiple times, there is no (at least compared to well configured madVR PC). So there´s nothing to see on comparison photos/video.

However, there are tons of photos and videos about madVR - what you can see there is true for the Envy as well.
If you want madVR for all sources in a black box with OSD, IF/RF/IP Remote Control, then the Envy is the right box for you.
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post #2180 of 2495 Old 03-18-2020, 02:19 AM
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And as said multiple times, there is no (at least compared to well configured madVR PC). So there´s nothing to see on comparison photos/video.
This sounds good ; but did you compare an Envy Pro or an Extreme to a PC ?
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post #2181 of 2495 Old 03-18-2020, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
This sounds good ; but did you compare an Envy Pro or an Extreme to a PC ?
I´m currently waiting for my demo unit to be delivered (hope it will at all due to Coronoa...). My comment is based on what madshi himself said, that there´s (almost) no difference in algorithms between madVR and the Envy atm. The difference between Pro and Extreme depends on the functionality you use - of course the more functionality/algos you use, the more the difference in processing power will affect the quality. How much that will be can´t be said right now since - AFAIK - no Pro has been built yet, just Extremes...
However, the demo units (Extremes) will have an emulator mode so that you can switch between Extreme and Pro for demo purposes. With that, it should be able to show the difference. However, this hasn´t been implemented yet. I guess with that functionality in place, that might be the right time to provide comparison photos / videos
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post #2182 of 2495 Old 03-18-2020, 04:31 AM
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Thank you, hockeyAVS ! So it looks like we have to wait a little bit longer. At least the emulator mode sounds like a cool feature to study differences between the 2 models.
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post #2183 of 2495 Old 03-24-2020, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
Wouldn't it be possible to find a business model where everyone could benefit?

Something like having the MadVR HTPC software being available through dealers only, at a reasonable price that would allow the current large madVR base to buy it legally?
New major versions could be released frequently (every year, every two years ???), that would require a new license, or some type of upgrade option?
Could that generate an interesting volume of sales to minimize the loss of potential Envy sales?

Even the Envy users may benefit from that, as it would provide useful feedback to improve the Envy, potentially driving new interesting features ???
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@madshi it would be great if you could offer future features to the HTPC platform ....FOR A FEE..... I think every madVR users would acknowledge its been a "Free Ride" for quite some time, so i ( and i am sure many many others) would glady "Pay" for the privilege of adding new features to the HTPC version when possible..
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
It seems a lot of consideration here is being given to what to give away on the HTPC version of madVR vs what not to. I don't see these as competing products. If someone has an HTPC and is fully HTPC focused, I doubt that person is going to dump that platform and buy an ENVY. I think your ENVY buyers are folks that need the HDMI input to handle processed video of streaming and those that cannot handle building and configuring an HTPC. Those that are staying with HTPC are users that do not require streaming inputs processed and those that are priced out of ENVY regardless of feature set. The two just aren't competing. Therefore, your distributors shouldn't care what you do with madVR.
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
That's a great idea. The majority of HTPC users seeking the top stand out features of MadVR are already using Nvidia cards and waiting to hear if the software will utilize the tensor cores. I would buy a 2080Ti tomorrow + a commercial license if those feature become available. sell the license through the envy distributors and dealers.

there is a large user base all over the world providing valuable feedback and helping fine tune the product with HSTM being the most recent topic. imo that would be a loss if the HTPC community willing to pay for a commercial product wouldn't have the chance to provide that feedback on next gen algorithms.

If it does become a commercial product for the HTPC, future Envy owners will be thankful that this dedicated DIY community exists.
I mostly agree with you guys, but recently one of our distributors told me that their Lumagen sales went through the floor when a local company started selling commercial madVR HTPCs (which isn't really what madVR was intended to be used for, btw). So although I think that the madVR HTPC software is not really competing with the Envy, we do need to carefully consider what to do. I'm in your camp, but I can't just brush off my business partner and all the distributors and dealers. But to be honest, atm we're so focused on (finally) bringing the Envy to market, that we're not really having a lot of headspace left to discuss the HTPC software. There will be a time for that later.

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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
The lack of communication from a company attempting to roll out a product is disturbing. Honestly my neighbor's son's lemonade stand had better communication , sales and marketing than this product.
If we did active marketing right now, we would only annoy people because Envy is not on the market yet. If we had known in advance how long it would take to bring Envy to market, we would have kept it a secret much longer. At this point we're limiting communication, sales and marketing simply because we're not selling yet. Things will change when we're ready.

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Originally Posted by blake View Post
Do we have even an estimate on date of Envy full release ?
As soon as our beta testers tell us it's ready. Just yesterday W.Mayer asked me when we would start sales because he's happy with his Envy right now (see his latest post on the dci forum, not sure if I'm allowed to post a direct link). But there are still some things that need work, so we will wait just a little bit longer. Well, "wait" is the wrong word, it sounds passive. I'm very actively working on this 24/7, seriously.

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Originally Posted by blake View Post
Is the remote control for the Envy IR or RF? Many of us will have the video processor is a separate room.
It's IR+RF, and the RF works pretty well even through (light) walls. However, I would assume that most users who have the video processor in a separate room will use some sort of automation system (Crestron, RTI etc)? Envy will have IP control.

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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
M.i.a ??
It feels more like a classified mission than mia to me...

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Originally Posted by jetsen View Post
Well, I can tell you that I have been testing hours and hours with the new toy, even got a few people over that wanted to have a first hand demo.
all of them where impressed with the extra value that the Envy brings to the table, I wont make the mistake again by posting pictures, been there done that not a good idea :-)
But all I can tell you is that the Envy brings the HDR viewing to another level where you can enjoy and appreciate what the madVR team has been putting together.
I know a lot of you are impatient, I guess that's normal, but the wait will be worth it and every day that goes by Matthias is tweaking and improving the very last details.
Thank you!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
At the moment I am not interested to see any more pictures but to hear any comments for the differences between madVR from PC versus Envy. I understand that the Envy is able to use its hardware resources in a smart and automated way - something the PC software doensn't do. I have a highend PC (incl. 2080 Ti ) and so I don't have too much restrictions in my view. I wonder how the processing of an Envy Pro (the smaller version) compares to a highend PC. Maybe the cheaper Envy can do DTM incl HSTM and some other modest processing as good (or at least nearly as good) as a highend PC. That would be great of course for potential customers. I hope to hear any comments from testers about that soon.
Well, at 4K24, currently there's not much (if anything) the Pro model has to give up compared to the Extreme. At least right now. Of course in the long run the Extreme will have more room to get more algorithms added in the future, or to run new algos at very high quality settings. E.g. if you're a fan of motion interpolation (or one of the other planned future algos), you may have to go with the Extreme. Or if you want highest quality at 4K60, the Extreme should be a worthy upgrade, as well. Although of course the Pro model will render beautiful 4K60 HDR, as well.

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Originally Posted by catav View Post
I'm a madVR-HTPC die-hard, but Envy might change my thinking. I'm just curious how it compares to madVR on a PC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
As stated before even by madshi himself, at the moment the Envy are mostly based on the same code, so picture quality is more or less identical between the two solutions.
This might change in the future as the Envy software gets new algoriths that probably won´t go into madVR.
However, the Envy automatically provides the optimal settings, whereas for madVR, the users have to fiddle them out for themselves (and probably get non-optimal results).
^ Exactly.

Well, not necessarily the same "code", but at least the same algorithms. Whether or not new algos will go into the madVR HTPC software (and with which quality levels) is not decided yet.
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post #2184 of 2495 Old 03-24-2020, 12:16 PM
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I mostly agree with you guys, but recently one of our distributors told me that their Lumagen sales went through the floor when a local company started selling commercial madVR HTPCs
I’d bet that those same HTPCs will affect your Envy sales too.
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post #2185 of 2495 Old 03-24-2020, 03:52 PM
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So although I think that the madVR HTPC software is not really competing with the Envy, we do need to carefully consider what to do. I'm in your camp, but I can't just brush off my business partner and all the distributors and dealers.
I hate to say this guys, but I told you so.

IMHO, I would focus on getting this product (madvr), although a watered down version depending on available resources, implemented internally into devices (projectors, TVs, Blu-ray players), somewhat like Faroudja did a few decades ago. Licensing your product would bring in millions, selling a few envy’s, probably not. Yes I know, easier said than done. But it’s just my “free” advice, so take it for what it is worth.
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I hope that madVR, Labs will find the balancing point between the Envy release and the PC solution, without any cannibalization. As madshi has said, they shouldn’t compete much in the beginning. But down the road, that could change. If only Envy is afforded the best algo’s with the highest quality settings, the PC version would start to look inferior. I think that’s understandable. Sales & Marketing is important.

But, I personally would want the PC solution to have the same offerings as Envy, but at a reasonable cost. I’m more than willing to pay extra for the best madVR has to offer on a PC. That’s why I have been pushing madVR software at a premium. Not $20-50 bucks, guys. But maybe $999 for Envy Extreme look alike, including menus and (look and feel). That should make Sales & Marketing happy. I wish I owned a company with this marketing plan.

At what cost (if ever) does a madVR-PC user want to convert to Envy? Well, if Envy pricing could be closer to what a similarly, top of the line madVR PC would cost, that might change everything. Maybe not possible.

Good luck, madVR Labs…
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I'm going to be the outlier here, but as someone who has run a hardware and then software company, I must say that doing anything with hardware is insanity, plain and simple. It doesn't make financially sense to build custom devices unless you're really, really well funded or you have a solid alternative revenue stream.

My unsolicited advice would be to publish a HTPC spec and license the software only. It's much, much simpler than managing inventory, suppliers, and production schedules. Unless you have scale, you have no control over when parts get discontinued and who gets priority when shipments are tight. It's a business I never want to be in again. However, with software, life is much easier. Boot it up, check if the HTPC follows the spec, show warning otherwise, done.

My W.A.G. is that Envy would have to retail around $30K to $40K to create a sustainable business. Not sure how big the market is at that price point, but I suspect it's going to be pretty small. Fingers crossed for the madVR team that I'm totally wrong and that everything goes as planned, or better, for them!
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post #2188 of 2495 Old 03-24-2020, 08:03 PM
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You obviously have experience in all of this. Diversity is the name of the game to stay alive. When one product’s sales slows, you had an opposing one that takes over to keep you solvent. That’s another good reason for madVR Labs to support both software and hardware marketing revenue.

Last edited by catav; 03-24-2020 at 10:40 PM.
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post #2189 of 2495 Old 03-24-2020, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
I’d bet that those same HTPCs will affect your Envy sales too.
Honestly, I doubt they would impact it much. The use case for the two devices is quite different. The HTPC compared to a Lumagen is different IMO since the HTPC is superior. It's not superior to an ENVY. Also, ENVY owners will want the HDMI input and the ability to use it for other sources. That's really the big differentiator. A simple licensing agreement with madVR that prohibits it being sold with a PC sort of solves the problem also.

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I hope that madVR, Labs will find the balancing point between the Envy release and the PC solution, without any cannibalization. As madshi has said, they shouldn’t compete much in the beginning. But down the road, that could change. If only Envy is afforded the best algo’s with the highest quality settings, the PC version would start to look inferior. I think that’s understandable. Sales & Marketing is important.

But, I personally would want the PC solution to have the same offerings as Envy, but at a reasonable cost. I’m more than willing to pay extra for the best madVR has to offer on a PC. That’s why I have been pushing madVR software at a premium. Not $20-50 bucks, guys. But maybe $999 for Envy Extreme look alike, including menus and (look and feel). That should make Sales & Marketing happy. I wish I owned a company with this marketing plan.

At what cost (if ever) does a madVR-PC user want to convert to Envy? Well, if Envy pricing could be closer to what a similarly, top of the line madVR PC would cost, that might change everything. Maybe not possible.

Good luck, madVR Labs…
I'm out at $999 and I'm out on having all the ENVY menus. I am not looking to turn my HTPC into a ENVY. I just want the added algorithms as they become available.
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post #2190 of 2495 Old 03-25-2020, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjorg View Post
I'm going to be the outlier here, but as someone who has run a hardware and then software company, I must say that doing anything with hardware is insanity, plain and simple. It doesn't make financially sense to build custom devices unless you're really, really well funded or you have a solid alternative revenue stream.

My unsolicited advice would be to publish a HTPC spec and license the software only. It's much, much simpler than managing inventory, suppliers, and production schedules. Unless you have scale, you have no control over when parts get discontinued and who gets priority when shipments are tight. It's a business I never want to be in again. However, with software, life is much easier. Boot it up, check if the HTPC follows the spec, show warning otherwise, done.

My W.A.G. is that Envy would have to retail around $30K to $40K to create a sustainable business. Not sure how big the market is at that price point, but I suspect it's going to be pretty small. Fingers crossed for the madVR team that I'm totally wrong and that everything goes as planned, or better, for them!

How has Lumagen been so successful then ?


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