madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread! - Page 74 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2191 of 2268 Old 03-25-2020, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by blake View Post
How has Lumagen been so successful then ?
Lumagen has been around for 20 years. It would be fascinating to hear how they arrived a their current generation of products. Was Lumagen started as a spin-out from an existing business? Was it a bunch of hardware engineers who banded together? I don't know, but I'd love to!

Wasn't Teranex king-of-the-hill back then for video processing? Didn't they cost $30,000 as well initially? My memory is fuzzy. Seems like a lifetime ago!

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post #2192 of 2268 Old 03-25-2020, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bjorg View Post
Lumagen has been around for 20 years. It would be fascinating to hear how they arrived a their current generation of products. Was Lumagen started as a spin-out from an existing business? Was it a bunch of hardware engineers who banded together? I don't know, but I'd love to!

Wasn't Teranex king-of-the-hill back then for video processing? Didn't they cost $30,000 as well initially? My memory is fuzzy. Seems like a lifetime ago!
Teranex, Snell and Wilcox, and Faroudja were king of the hills at a price of $30,000 plus. Theater Automation Wow did introduce a HTPC based solution called the Rock at that time also.
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post #2193 of 2268 Old 03-25-2020, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bjorg View Post
Lumagen has been around for 20 years. It would be fascinating to hear how they arrived a their current generation of products. Was Lumagen started as a spin-out from an existing business? Was it a bunch of hardware engineers who banded together? I don't know, but I'd love to!

Wasn't Teranex king-of-the-hill back then for video processing? Didn't they cost $30,000 as well initially? My memory is fuzzy. Seems like a lifetime ago!
Jim owned a company that did high end video cards/processing for PCs and then retired from that and started Lumagen. They've competed against multiple video processors from their arrival on the market including Teranex, S&W, Faroudja, DVDO, and some PC based ones as well. Most of those were limited in their scope and didn't do anything except a base need (scaler/de-interlacer) rather than the wealth of features that help with video systems like the Radiance products. This is why I've said before that I'm interested to see/hear more about the Envy outside of the base tone mapping/scaling comments that most seem to obsess over. As a calibrator, I've used the Lumagen products to fix a multitude of issues and improve overall usability of systems. Since the Envy is a video processor, I want to see what it does with those kinds of setups and the solutions it offers in that respect. When they initially said they didn't have virtual inputs, that immediately had me worried. But I will reserve judgement on it until I can test it myself and see how it does in a variety of different setups. It is no surprise that people like the tone mapping and scaling they offer, they've been doing a bang up job on that for some time. I want to see what it does for setup solutions that I commonly encounter in the field.
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post #2194 of 2268 Old 03-25-2020, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
... I'm out at $999 and I'm out on having all the ENVY menus. I am not looking to turn my HTPC into a ENVY. I just want the added algorithms as they become available.
Madshi says: ... Whether or not new algos will go into the madVR HTPC software (and with which quality levels) is not decided yet... end quote.

This is exactly why I want to encourage a madR-PC, Envy like solution to be brought into the fold. MadVR, Labs will be trying to decide on the marketing difference they want to portray between Envy and PC delivery.

I see a common cross-platform product possibility. All of madshi’s hard work could easily be shared between implementations.

Markmon1, at what price point do you see a madVR-PC with Envy Extreme algos to be offered at?

Last edited by catav; 03-25-2020 at 08:33 PM.
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post #2195 of 2268 Old 03-25-2020, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
Madshi says: ... Whether or not new algos will go into the madVR HTPC software (and with which quality levels) is not decided yet.

This is exactly why I want to encourage a madR-PC, Envy like solution to be brought into the fold. MadVR, Labs will be trying to decide on the marketing difference they want to portray between Envy and PC delivery.

I see a common cross-platform product possibility. All of madshi’s hard work could easily be shared between implementations.

Markmon1, at what price point do you see a madVR-PC with Envy Extreme algos to be offered at?
As I indicated above, perhaps each algorithm could be sold as an add-on for $50-ish. I'd probably pay that for each algorithm if it was something useful and something I'd use.

I really have no interest in ENVY's menus or other features. Just the algorithm quality. Those could possibly be sold as addon dlls.
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post #2196 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post

I'm out at $999 and I'm out on having all the ENVY menus. I am not looking to turn my HTPC into a ENVY. I just want the added algorithms as they become available.
I would be definitely up for 999$ HTPC Envy software. I would consider it a steal. MadVR is just terrible to use and extremely user-unfriendly. If they had Envy software it would enlarge their users and they could receive valuable feedback for their product.
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post #2197 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
Let's just hope the PC implementation doesn’t degrade against Envy. I will always want the best madVR/Envy has to offer, but I‘m not flush with cash. The pricing needs to stay simple and straight forward for marketing reasons. Price per algo seems Extreme (pun intended). Thanks, Mark.
The big distinction between the PC implementation and the Envy is, and always will be, that the PC implementation will never work with anything that requires HDCP handshaking. That lets out, among other things, disc players and most (if not all) streaming sources, i.e. anything that must be delivered via HDMI.
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post #2198 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
The big distinction between the PC implementation and the Envy is, and always will be, that the PC implementation will never work with anything that requires HDCP handshaking. That lets out, among other things, disc players and most (if not all) streaming sources, i.e. anything that must be delivered via HDMI.
Hasn't HDCP been cracked? Why wouldn't some people then use MadVR for other HDCP sources?

Note, I'm not for illegal software cracks.

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post #2199 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Hasn't HDCP been cracked? Why wouldn't some people then use MadVR for other HDCP sources?
In that case you still need an HDMI-input card that works perfectly together with Windows and madVR. That piece is exactly what took most of the time in developing the Envy (and the main problem wasn´t HDCP).
Guys, just believe that it´s not that easy than some of you think it is, otherwise somebody would have done it already...
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post #2200 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
In that case you still need an HDMI-input card that works perfectly together with Windows and madVR. That piece is exactly what took most of the time in developing the Envy (and the main problem wasn´t HDCP).
Guys, just believe that it´s not that easy than some of you think it is, otherwise somebody would have done it already...
There are HDMI input cards that work fine with Windows. Although madVR does not work with them now, I believe that it would be relatively easy to add that functionality for non-HDCP video if it would be of value. Video that includes HDCP, whether originating internal to the PC or external, will not work (and never will) since HDCP requires licensing for the entire video path in a box, not just for the HDMI input card.

As I understand it, one of the big problems (maybe the biggest) of Envy development was an HDMI card that could be licensed under HDCP and then going through the licensing process for the entire box. So, HDCP WAS a main problem.

HDCP is High Definition Content Protection. It is there to protect the content from being COPIED. Anything, hardware or software, that allows the video to be copied is not allowed and the HDCP licensing process insures that.

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post #2201 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 08:20 AM
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As I understand it, one of the big problems (maybe the biggest) of Envy development was an HDMI card that could be licensed under HDCP and then going through the licensing process for the entire box. So, HDCP WAS a main problem.
No, it wasn´t. Believe me, i talked with madshi about that. HDCP was one of the major requirements on the list, and in terms of licensing it´s a big deal. But technically, the main issue was to get a stable input stream that remains stable even with a diverse set of input sources attached to it with changing frame rate, frequency, color depth, etc.
If you think it´s that easy feel free to just do it.
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post #2202 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
No, it wasn´t. Believe me, i talked with madshi about that. HDCP was one of the major requirements on the list, and in terms of licensing it´s a big deal. But technically, the main issue was to get a stable input stream that remains stable even with a diverse set of input sources attached to it with changing frame rate, frequency, color depth, etc.
If you think it´s that easy feel free to just do it.
I never said (or implied) that there were not other big problems and I never said anything about any part of the development being 'easy'. I certainly remember a statement earlier in this thread from one of the Envy principals that the HDCP licensing was a big problem. Anyone who's been involved with licensing of this sort will testify that you have to jump through a lot of hoops to accomplish it. (And if you don't have it, you have nothing.)
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post #2203 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
I never said (or implied) that there were not other big problems and I never said anything about any part of the development being 'easy'. I certainly remember a statement earlier in this thread from one of the Envy principals that the HDCP licensing was a big problem. Anyone who's been involved with licensing of this sort will testify that you have to jump through a lot of hoops to accomplish it. (And if you don't have it, you have nothing.)
OK - reset, back to the start.
You assumed a few posts before without HDCP it would be easy, but it´s not. EOD from my side.
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post #2204 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by hockyAVS View Post
OK - reset, back to the start.
You assumed a few posts before without HDCP it would be easy, but it´s not. EOD from my side.
Of course, these things are relative. I did say 'relatively easy'. What I was trying to say was that HDCP is the deal breaker. If you handle everything else and you don't handle that you have nothing (at least for the non-techies). I'm sorry if that did not come across in my post.

(Note that when I talk about easy or difficult here, I am not talking about just technically easy and difficult, but about things like dealing with organizations that impose standards such as HDCP. Often that can be much more difficult than the technical problems.)
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post #2205 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 10:24 AM
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@madshi has provided an amazing product for free for over a decade. Anyone who thinks he has turned his back on that community wasn't really a part of that community to begin with. When a bull hears a jacksass braying in the field he just goes about his day. Please go about your day. We have your back . Thanks for everything you have done and everything you continue to do.

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post #2206 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 10:29 AM
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Of course, these things are relative. I did say 'relatively easy'. What I was trying to say was that HDCP is the deal breaker. If you handle everything else and you don't handle that you have nothing (at least for the non-techies). I'm sorry if that did not come across in my post.

(Note that when I talk about easy or difficult here, I am not talking about just technically easy and difficult, but about things like dealing with organizations that impose standards such as HDCP. Often that can be much more difficult than the technical problems.)
The thing is it doesn´t make sense to market a device that can only handle non-HDCP-sources or leave it up to the user to use illegal techniques to remove HDCP.
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post #2207 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 10:42 AM
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The thing is it doesn´t make sense to market a device that can only handle non-HDCP-sources or leave it up to the user to use illegal techniques to remove HDCP.
Of course. I just said specifically that without HDCP you have nothing. Was I not clear? Or are you just preaching to the choir?
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post #2208 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 11:47 AM
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Of course. I just said specifically that without HDCP you have nothing. Was I not clear?
Ah OK, that probably got lost in translation. So i guess we finally agree.
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post #2209 of 2268 Old 03-26-2020, 12:18 PM
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There are HDMI input cards that work fine with Windows. Although madVR does not work with them now.
Fwiw madvr is a renderer so it works with hdmi input just fine if you have a player that uses madvr and can read from the device. I use mpc-be for this purpose, works fine for what I need it for (1080p).
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post #2210 of 2268 Old 03-28-2020, 02:41 PM
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Could you in theory use a card like this:

Elgato 4K60 Pro MK.2 Video Capture (which captures 4k @ 60fps)

https://www.elgato.com/en/gaming/game-capture-4k60pro

In your HTPC, and then render it using MadVR?

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post #2211 of 2268 Old 03-28-2020, 02:54 PM
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in theory yes.

but i don't know how this point got missed again you can only do that for content that is not protected like games.
neither this capture card nor madVR are HDCP complain why would you even go this way if you are going to play none protected content anyway. this cheopo card is not even RGB complain.

then we have sync and so on it's not that easy.
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post #2212 of 2268 Old 03-28-2020, 03:32 PM
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in theory yes.

but i don't know how this point got missed again you can only do that for content that is not protected like games.
neither this capture card nor madVR are HDCP complain why would you even go this way if you are going to play none protected content anyway. this cheopo card is not even RGB complain.

then we have sync and so on it's not that easy.
You can use an HDMI splitter to bypass HDCP. For example: Orei UltraHD 4K

This 'cheapo card' is the only one which can capture [email protected] - it's actually quite good.

Sync would be a problem, yes. I'm going to try this though, just for fun. I will report back.

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post #2213 of 2268 Old 03-28-2020, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
You can use an HDMI splitter to bypass HDCP. For example: Orei UltraHD 4K

This 'cheapo card' is the only one which can capture [email protected] - it's actually quite good.

Sync would be a problem, yes. I'm going to try this though, just for fun. I will report back.

Well as far as I know you have to use a HDFury Integral which is a device that legally downgrades HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.4. And then there are some HDMI switches out there that will strip HDCP 1.4 but they are indeed grey market products.

But yes I believe it would be possible to create a setup like this with some HDMI capture card then.
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post #2214 of 2268 Old 03-29-2020, 12:27 AM
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This 'cheapo card' is the only one which can capture [email protected] - it's actually quite good.
yes this is a cheapo card.
this is a decent if not good one:
https://www.magewell.com/products/pr...e-hdmi-4k-plus
even has RGB support as it should be it's not truely lossless as all capture cards but that's the first card in the right direction.

audio is still a gonna but that's a whole different topic.
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post #2215 of 2268 Old 03-29-2020, 01:18 AM
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You can use an HDMI splitter to bypass HDCP. For example: Orei UltraHD 4K

This 'cheapo card' is the only one which can capture [email protected] - it's actually quite good.

Sync would be a problem, yes. I'm going to try this though, just for fun. I will report back.
I´ve done these kind of experiments early 2019 - i don´t know which card i used but it was also a consumer card.
I was able to get a stream into MPC and let madVR process it. I realized pretty quick that it would be a PITA to get it stable with different kind of input formats.
For instance the stream broke up when the input signal changed so i had to reestablish it manually in the player.
That was the time i reached to madshi for help and he told me he was working on a madVR black box.
So i dropped all my efforts and let it up to him. That it took over a year since then for a wizard like him told me that was a wise decision.
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Based on some of the comments I see here, it is very clear that many don’t have any idea of sales and marketing world. One of the most important things for any commercial venture is sustainability.

Sustainability comes from sustained sales compared to expenses, in other words cash flow and profit. Sustained sales comes from value of product being sold as perceived by the market. That value proposition is created through marketing.

The value of a product is in most cases perceived first before being experienced. If you could get a product for $1000 and try to sell a similar product for $10k, regardless of limitations of the cheaper product, you have made your premium product be perceived as being of lesser value. Don’t get me wrong, there will still be some who see the real value, but most would feel that the premium product is just overpriced.

That’s the reason why car makers tend to have different brands, cheaper mainstream brand and a different one for luxury.

If madshi wants to sell madvr for PC for $1k let alone $50 or $100, that’s the techie within that’s talking.
The business aspect of it is completely different from the techie side.

I do want madvr to be free or be cheap to buy, but the reality is if envy is to be a sustained venture, then the differences have to be stark in terms of capabilities and functionality. At this time, the ability to use envy with any source is a key differentiator, but not the capabilities themselves. That area has to be the main focus.

There is only so much time in a day and from a business standpoint that is better spent developing for the commercial product rather than free or community product.

Just my 2 cents. I wish all the best to Envy team.
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post #2217 of 2268 Old 03-29-2020, 01:49 PM
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Based on some of the comments I see here, it is very clear that many don’t have any idea of sales and marketing world. One of the most important things for any commercial venture is sustainability.

Sustainability comes from sustained sales compared to expenses, in other words cash flow and profit. Sustained sales comes from value of product being sold as perceived by the market. That value proposition is created through marketing.

The value of a product is in most cases perceived first before being experienced. If you could get a product for $1000 and try to sell a similar product for $10k, regardless of limitations of the cheaper product, you have made your premium product be perceived as being of lesser value. Don’t get me wrong, there will still be some who see the real value, but most would feel that the premium product is just overpriced.

That’s the reason why car makers tend to have different brands, cheaper mainstream brand and a different one for luxury.

If madshi wants to sell madvr for PC for $1k let alone $50 or $100, that’s the techie within that’s talking.
The business aspect of it is completely different from the techie side.

I do want madvr to be free or be cheap to buy, but the reality is if envy is to be a sustained venture, then the differences have to be stark in terms of capabilities and functionality. At this time, the ability to use envy with any source is a key differentiator, but not the capabilities themselves. That area has to be the main focus.

There is only so much time in a day and from a business standpoint that is better spent developing for the commercial product rather than free or community product.

Just my 2 cents. I wish all the best to Envy team.

Yes, i have a feeling that it may be the "End Of The Road" in respect to the PC based madVR software... It will be a shame, BUT sort of expected ....
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"here is a new algo i'm playing around with maybe not part of madVR at all in the end or may miss settings/been massively slower so how do you think this looks and what can be improved?"

not so sure the turn out will be so high.
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post #2219 of 2268 Old 03-30-2020, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Yes, i have a feeling that it may be the "End Of The Road" in respect to the PC based madVR software... It will be a shame, BUT sort of expected ....
Nonsense. MadVR exists today and isn't going anywhere. No one can take that away from me or the thousands of others currently using it.
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post #2220 of 2268 Old 03-30-2020, 02:03 AM
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Nonsense. MadVR exists today and isn't going anywhere. No one can take that away from me or the thousands of others currently using it.
I meant in the context of any further development / features to the PC version...

Truthfully though, it wouldnt worry me if that were the case as the current state of madVR PC version performs superbly...better than ANY other option currently available.
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