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post #2311 of 2720 Old 04-07-2020, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Today I had the great opportunity and pleasure to see and test the much anticipated Envy. I am happy to report it was such a great event that I am sure to remember still in a few years. A couple of friends could convince the local Swiss dealer to show the Envy Extreme to us. He got it just the other day. The demo took place not in the dealers show room but in the fully optimized homecinema of a friend of mine. Some of us (including me) are already very much familiar with the advantages of the PC based madVR. But for sure we were very keen to learn how the Envy would compare. Another friend of us still uses his Panasonic on his VW870 but is avoiding a PC ...


In order to make best use of the limited time we had first installed my Panasonic UB9004 and compared the Pansasonic tonemapping vs PC based tonemapping by madVR. Projector: SonyVW760 with 84 nits on 3.5m screen width. AVR was a Denon 8500 in between player and projector. We then decided on the scenes we wanted to check later on with the Envy. When Reto Wäffler (the local dealer) brought his Envy Extreme it took us just a couple of minutes to install everything: We connected the Panasonic player with the Envy by an HDMI cable. From the Envy another HDMI was used to connect the Envy with the projector. Settings on the projector's side were identical to those when using the PC based madVR: HDR off (to allow tonemapping by the Envy), gamma 2.2 and BT2020. Tonemapping on the Pansonic side was off: particularly the Pansonic optimizer was off and we gave out HDR/2020 - so this was like playing a disk. With the Envy I learnt that there was also a second HDMI entry port if you want to bypass the tonemapping by the Envy. In the menu of the Entry we entered the nits (84 nits) and Reto Wäffler went quickly through the setting options. He had with him a USB stick including many difficult test pictures (many from the Spears & Munsil test disk and from Aquaman). I am very familiar with the disk from S&M so I could immediately tell that the Envy did a great job : these pictures look very much like when I use madVR in my setup. So we compared the Sony tonemapping vs the Envy and it was very obvious how much more brillant the Envy tonemapping was. Brighter and more contrast. Better and more lifelike colours. Simply more picture depth. Reto has a JVC N9 incl FA in his demo room and explained with every picture what to look for. With many pictures he reported that the FA failed compared to the Envy.

We then compared the Envy tonemapping vs the PC based tonemapping by playing scenes from MEG, the Revenant and Valerian. The typical scenes that we are familar with and that we had seen so often in all those time on our long and hard way to get the best tonemapping in our homecimemas. We could not tell any shortcomings by the Envy. Everything looked great. Ok, nearly everything ... The HDMI handshakes were quite fast considering we had a a player, an AVR and the Envy. It was never annoying and playback worked at least to me pretty smooth and surpringly well. The only scene when the PC based tonemapping was obviously better was end of chapter 4 in the Revenant when Glass was speaking to his son leaning versus a tree. A dark picture. With the Sony tonemapping there is is a grey veil, a lack of contrast and not enough shadow detail. With madVR there is no grey veil, the contrast and details are superb when all is set up properly. Now with the Envy there was no veil in that scene as well but less contrast and less details compared to the PC. We tried various levels of shadow recovery but this did not help much: the PC based tonemapping was just better here. Having said this: the Envy was all in all higly convincing and did a great job. Very, very well done Madshi. Congratulations !!! A friend of mine - still without a madVR based PC but owner of a VW870 - decided on the spot to buy the Envy Pro and placed today the order with Reto. It's graphic card is better than that of the PC we were using for the event He said it was a no brainer to go for the Pro . Something I had actually exspected from the very beginning

So this was already a great event so far but it even got better. Another friend of us showed then up and brought his Radiance Pro with him. He quickly installed it and briefly explained the parameters as he is an experienced user. We repeated then various scenes from the Revenant, Valerian and the MEG and compred the Lumagen tonemapping to that of the Envy. First we noticed that also the Lumagen could beat the Sony tonemapping. Generally speaking the Lumagen did a good job. But again there was a clear winner: the Envy. Sometimes the Radiance tonemapping was bright but lacked the contrast of the Envy. We started using the Lumagen recommendation of about a factor 4 of actual nits. But with MEG this was bright but lacked the contrast we are used to. With many scenes only by going from 440 to 1300 the contrast looked good. But the shadow details got then lost in darker scenes. General consensus of all of us: The Envy plays in a different and better league when it comes to DTM. The Envy was brilliant. I'd say: HDR at its best. With Envy you set it up once with one setting and you are home and dry. With the Envy we had used just one setting. With any other solution you are either continously changing the settings or you will see most scenes far from optimal.

Again my respect to Madshi for developping such a great product.
It is not nits, it is DynPad and 4 is an old recommendation. If you are running the firmware that came out early January (latest), dpad should be set to 1.

Per JRP
"- DynPad: Dynamic Tone Mapping detects scene cuts on the first frame of a new scene. Because scenes can get brighter within the scene, the Radiance Pro adds a small pad to its calculation of scene brightness to avoid the scene “crushing” later within the scene. The addition of “adaptive” changes within a scene this pad does not need to be as large. We started with DynPad = 6 as default. Now we use DynPad = 3 as default. The value of 3 works very well in conjunction with the Adaptive nature of the DTM. So well that I recommend trying DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. Even with a DynPad = 1 we see virtually no scenes that have any clipping as they get brighter. In fact we are considering changing the default for DynPad to 1. So I suggest you try DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. You can of course use a value of 2 or 3 and get excellent results. However, a value of 1 will increase the perceived brightness, which can be helpful on projector based theaters."

When comparing a scene, it is probably advisable to start the playback a little before the scene you want to compare, so that the tone mapping solution can do its best on the actual scene being compared.

Added
I am really looking forward to seeing the Envy on a front projector setup and see how easy it is to set up.
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Last edited by Mike Garrett; 04-07-2020 at 04:49 PM.
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post #2312 of 2720 Old 04-07-2020, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I'm looking forward to how the Envy handles HDR with a single value like that. The reason I say this is because a single value doesn't do a very good job of representing projection system brightness. For example, if you have 85 nits on a 160" scope screen vs 85 nits on a 100" 16x9 screen, the subjective luminance of those two displays will be vastly different.
Hi Kris,

No worries, the Envy allows you to enter two peak nits values for your screen: one for 16/9, one for scope.

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post #2313 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
It is not nits, it is DynPad and 4 is an old recommendation. If you are running the firmware that came out early January (latest), dpad should be set to 1.

Per JRP
"- DynPad: Dynamic Tone Mapping detects scene cuts on the first frame of a new scene. Because scenes can get brighter within the scene, the Radiance Pro adds a small pad to its calculation of scene brightness to avoid the scene “crushing” later within the scene. The addition of “adaptive” changes within a scene this pad does not need to be as large. We started with DynPad = 6 as default. Now we use DynPad = 3 as default. The value of 3 works very well in conjunction with the Adaptive nature of the DTM. So well that I recommend trying DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. Even with a DynPad = 1 we see virtually no scenes that have any clipping as they get brighter. In fact we are considering changing the default for DynPad to 1. So I suggest you try DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. You can of course use a value of 2 or 3 and get excellent results. However, a value of 1 will increase the perceived brightness, which can be helpful on projector based theaters."

When comparing a scene, it is probably advisable to start the playback a little before the scene you want to compare, so that the tone mapping solution can do its best on the actual scene being compared.

Added
I am really looking forward to seeing the Envy on a front projector setup and see how easy it is to set up.
Mike i think you got it wrong.

the factor of 4-5 of actual nits is the correct setting when inputting how much light u have from ur projector and that is what Mori is talking about, he is not talking about DynPad.
The Dynpad is a different setting and yes the new recommendation is between 1-3 and 1 being what most like to use.

so if he has 85 nits light output he has to put Maxlight : 340-400 , between that range and that is the recomendation directly from JRP .
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post #2314 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Today I had the great opportunity and pleasure to see and test the much anticipated Envy. I am happy to report it was such a great event that I am sure to remember still in a few years. A couple of friends could convince the local Swiss dealer to show the Envy Extreme to us. He got it just the other day. The demo took place not in the dealers show room but in the fully optimized homecinema of a friend of mine. Some of us (including me) are already very much familiar with the advantages of the PC based madVR. But for sure we were very keen to learn how the Envy would compare. Another friend of us still uses his Panasonic on his VW870 but is avoiding a PC ...


In order to make best use of the limited time we had first installed my Panasonic UB9004 and compared the Pansasonic tonemapping vs PC based tonemapping by madVR. Projector: SonyVW760 with 84 nits on 3.5m screen width. AVR was a Denon 8500 in between player and projector. We then decided on the scenes we wanted to check later on with the Envy. When Reto Wäffler (the local dealer) brought his Envy Extreme it took us just a couple of minutes to install everything: We connected the Panasonic player with the Envy by an HDMI cable. From the Envy another HDMI was used to connect the Envy with the projector. Settings on the projector's side were identical to those when using the PC based madVR: HDR off (to allow tonemapping by the Envy), gamma 2.2 and BT2020. Tonemapping on the Pansonic side was off: particularly the Pansonic optimizer was off and we gave out HDR/2020 - so this was like playing a disk. With the Envy I learnt that there was also a second HDMI entry port if you want to bypass the tonemapping by the Envy. In the menu of the Entry we entered the nits (84 nits) and Reto Wäffler went quickly through the setting options. He had with him a USB stick including many difficult test pictures (many from the Spears & Munsil test disk and from Aquaman). I am very familiar with the disk from S&M so I could immediately tell that the Envy did a great job : these pictures look very much like when I use madVR in my setup. So we compared the Sony tonemapping vs the Envy and it was very obvious how much more brillant the Envy tonemapping was. Brighter and more contrast. Better and more lifelike colours. Simply more picture depth. Reto has a JVC N9 incl FA in his demo room and explained with every picture what to look for. With many pictures he reported that the FA failed compared to the Envy.

We then compared the Envy tonemapping vs the PC based tonemapping by playing scenes from MEG, the Revenant and Valerian. The typical scenes that we are familar with and that we had seen so often in all those time on our long and hard way to get the best tonemapping in our homecimemas. We could not tell any shortcomings by the Envy. Everything looked great. Ok, nearly everything ... The HDMI handshakes were quite fast considering we had a a player, an AVR and the Envy. It was never annoying and playback worked at least to me pretty smooth and surpringly well. The only scene when the PC based tonemapping was obviously better was end of chapter 4 in the Revenant when Glass was speaking to his son leaning versus a tree. A dark picture. With the Sony tonemapping there is is a grey veil, a lack of contrast and not enough shadow detail. With madVR there is no grey veil, the contrast and details are superb when all is set up properly. Now with the Envy there was no veil in that scene as well but less contrast and less details compared to the PC. We tried various levels of shadow recovery but this did not help much: the PC based tonemapping was just better here. Having said this: the Envy was all in all higly convincing and did a great job. Very, very well done Madshi. Congratulations !!! A friend of mine - still without a madVR based PC but owner of a VW870 - decided on the spot to buy the Envy Pro and placed today the order with Reto. It's graphic card is better than that of the PC we were using for the event He said it was a no brainer to go for the Pro . Something I had actually exspected from the very beginning

So this was already a great event so far but it even got better. Another friend of us showed then up and brought his Radiance Pro with him. He quickly installed it and briefly explained the parameters as he is an experienced user. We repeated then various scenes from the Revenant, Valerian and the MEG and compred the Lumagen tonemapping to that of the Envy. First we noticed that also the Lumagen could beat the Sony tonemapping. Generally speaking the Lumagen did a good job. But again there was a clear winner: the Envy. Sometimes the Radiance tonemapping was bright but lacked the contrast of the Envy. We started using the Lumagen recommendation of about a factor 4 of actual nits. But with MEG this was bright but lacked the contrast we are used to. With many scenes only by going from 440 to 1300 the contrast looked good. But the shadow details got then lost in darker scenes. General consensus of all of us: The Envy plays in a different and better league when it comes to DTM. The Envy was brilliant. I'd say: HDR at its best. With Envy you set it up once with one setting and you are home and dry. With the Envy we had used just one setting. With any other solution you are either continously changing the settings or you will see most scenes far from optimal.

Again my respect to Madshi for developping such a great product.

Great social distancing :-(


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post #2315 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Mike i think you got it wrong.

the factor of 4-5 of actual nits is the correct setting when inputting how much light u have from ur projector and that is what Mori is talking about, he is not talking about DynPad.
The Dynpad is a different setting and yes the new recommendation is between 1-3 and 1 being what most like to use.

so if he has 85 nits light output he has to put Maxlight : 340-400 , between that range and that is the recomendation directly from JRP .
Okay. The Dpad setting used would have been nice to know.
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Great social distancing :-(

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post #2317 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 08:44 AM
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Hi Kris,

No worries, the Envy allows you to enter two peak nits values for your screen: one for 16/9, one for scope.
This is slightly different than what I was referring to. That would be more like a setup memory (I've done setups with Lumagen's where client's have two screens (Craig Peer is an example) and the calibration is completely separate for each, so he simply uses a different memory). I was talking more about a one number fits all for the same measured light. If you have a 100" 16x9 screen and measure 100 nits, it isn't the same thing as a 160" 16x9 screen that measures 100 nits in terms of subjective light. Dolby has even written a white paper about this. It would be an interesting experiment to try with something like the Envy. If it was an issue, I'm sure it wouldn't be a big deal to compensate for, Madshi could add something where you enter your screen size and it could compensate.
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post #2318 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
This is slightly different than what I was referring to. That would be more like a setup memory (I've done setups with Lumagen's where client's have two screens (Craig Peer is an example) and the calibration is completely separate for each, so he simply uses a different memory). I was talking more about a one number fits all for the same measured light. If you have a 100" 16x9 screen and measure 100 nits, it isn't the same thing as a 160" 16x9 screen that measures 100 nits in terms of subjective light. Dolby has even written a white paper about this. It would be an interesting experiment to try with something like the Envy. If it was an issue, I'm sure it wouldn't be a big deal to compensate for, Madshi could add something where you enter your screen size and it could compensate.
Sure, but there is also a "brightness" setting to compensate for that. I guess taking the screen size into account could be done automatically, possibly following Dolby's paper, but what really counts from a tonemapping point of view is how many nits are available. That might change with the same screen, for example if you use the zoom method with a scope screen. Then the additional brightness setting allows to tune to taste. Even if @madshi was to follow the Dolby paper, some might still find the result too dark or too bright, so as long as the algo can deal with the possible different peak brightness with the same screen, as well as a way to adjust to taste, that sounds good enough. Then of course madshi could add different memories etc, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

Again, I don't think there is any reason to worry, there are more than enough settings to accommodate most situations perfectly.

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post #2319 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I was talking more about a one number fits all for the same measured light. If you have a 100" 16x9 screen and measure 100 nits, it isn't the same thing as a 160" 16x9 screen that measures 100 nits in terms of subjective light. Dolby has even written a white paper about this. It would be an interesting experiment to try with something like the Envy. If it was an issue, I'm sure it wouldn't be a big deal to compensate for, Madshi could add something where you enter your screen size and it could compensate.
That is a very interesting point and reminds first of all of what I had realized when I had set up madVR (PC based) in my homecinema. I use a screen with gain 1.4 (about). Why do I mention this ?
Because such a screen has typically a hotspot. In my case it is about 20% from the centre to the edges. It depends also on the position of the projector. So imagine you want to determine first the real target nits of your setup in order for madVR / the Envy to do the correct calculations of the optimal DTM for your setup. This implies that the calculations will be fine for the center but necessarily for the corners.


So based on that thoughts I did mesurements on various parts of the screen, calulated the average and used that value then in madVR. Guess what ? It looked even better and actually more precise than before. This I took as a clear indication how precisely madVR actually works.

Another thought: The other day a friend of mine was argueing that because of Helmholtz Kohlrausch effect you might treat an LED projector that covers the DCI-P3 completely (and so has better colour saturation than other projectors) in a different way. I did not agree with that because I think it is all about the optimal slope of the EOTF for one particular frame. If you enter a value that is too low I think that you waste a little bit of potential but the result will be correct. If you enter a nit number that is too high it will probably tend to get more errors in the higher nit range.

Of course this is quite theoretical and others who know more about the applied algorithms in madVR may please correct me if I am wrong. And I also would like to add that all that does not really matter that much if you are a few nits apart. MadVR will still look great. So don't worry if you have no measurement tools.

P.S. the screen we were using for the comparion is even for brightness and has no hotspot.
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Last edited by *Mori*; 04-08-2020 at 09:57 AM.
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post #2320 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
This is why I've said before that I'm interested to see/hear more about the Envy outside of the base tone mapping/scaling comments that most seem to obsess over. As a calibrator, I've used the Lumagen products to fix a multitude of issues and improve overall usability of systems. Since the Envy is a video processor, I want to see what it does with those kinds of setups and the solutions it offers in that respect. When they initially said they didn't have virtual inputs, that immediately had me worried.
Please don't worry. We do listen to feedback. For your interest, our remote control even has a dedicated button now for virtual inputs and profiles. It's not working just yet, but it's the very next thing on my to do list. And I dare say, I believe you'll like how it will work (fully planned out in my head already).

If you find anything missing in the Envy (once you get to test it), I'm quite willing to listen to improvement suggestions.

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Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
trying to get my $1,000+ video card set up to handle custom resolutions, sub-sampling and bit-depth correctly dwarfed anything that i had to do to get madvr setup correctly - jmo.
Yes. This is exactly the kind of thing that is a pain to get right. Which is why Envy has a patent pending algorithm which performs audio/video sync adjustments invisibly during scene changes, which makes it unnecessary to use custom resolutions and basically should produce similar results as to what "genlock" does in other products.

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Can it keep the height within a scope screen on a 16:9 movie, but stretch it out to fill the entire scope screen?

I believe thats called the non linear scaling from Lumagen, isn't it? recall seeing a video where you can set this up.

My previous Jriver madvr htpc had this option within Jriver, although not as advanced as NLS, it basicly just chopped things off as I recall with a sort of zoom to fill the scope screen.
Personally, I don't like the idea of distorting parts of the image, so I'm not a fan of NLS. However, it's easy enough to add, so if there's enough demand, Envy will get this feature sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Today I had the great opportunity and pleasure to see and test the much anticipated Envy. I am happy to report it was such a great event that I am sure to remember still in a few years. A couple of friends could convince the local Swiss dealer to show the Envy Extreme to us. He got it just the other day. The demo took place not in the dealers show room but in the fully optimized homecinema of a friend of mine. Some of us (including me) are already very much familiar with the advantages of the PC based madVR. But for sure we were very keen to learn how the Envy would compare. Another friend of us still uses his Panasonic on his VW870 but is avoiding a PC ...

In order to make best use of the limited time we had first installed my Panasonic UB9004 and compared the Pansasonic tonemapping vs PC based tonemapping by madVR. Projector: SonyVW760 with 84 nits on 3.5m screen width. AVR was a Denon 8500 in between player and projector. We then decided on the scenes we wanted to check later on with the Envy. When Reto Wäffler (the local dealer) brought his Envy Extreme it took us just a couple of minutes to install everything: We connected the Panasonic player with the Envy by an HDMI cable. From the Envy another HDMI was used to connect the Envy with the projector. Settings on the projector's side were identical to those when using the PC based madVR: HDR off (to allow tonemapping by the Envy), gamma 2.2 and BT2020. Tonemapping on the Pansonic side was off: particularly the Pansonic optimizer was off and we gave out HDR/2020 - so this was like playing a disk. With the Envy I learnt that there was also a second HDMI entry port if you want to bypass the tonemapping by the Envy. In the menu of the Entry we entered the nits (84 nits) and Reto Wäffler went quickly through the setting options. He had with him a USB stick including many difficult test pictures (many from the Spears & Munsil test disk and from Aquaman). I am very familiar with the disk from S&M so I could immediately tell that the Envy did a great job : these pictures look very much like when I use madVR in my setup. So we compared the Sony tonemapping vs the Envy and it was very obvious how much more brillant the Envy tonemapping was. Brighter and more contrast. Better and more lifelike colours. Simply more picture depth. Reto has a JVC N9 incl FA in his demo room and explained with every picture what to look for. With many pictures he reported that the FA failed compared to the Envy.

We then compared the Envy tonemapping vs the PC based tonemapping by playing scenes from MEG, the Revenant and Valerian. The typical scenes that we are familar with and that we had seen so often in all those time on our long and hard way to get the best tonemapping in our homecimemas. We could not tell any shortcomings by the Envy. Everything looked great. Ok, nearly everything ... The HDMI handshakes were quite fast considering we had a a player, an AVR and the Envy. It was never annoying and playback worked at least to me pretty smooth and surpringly well. The only scene when the PC based tonemapping was obviously better was end of chapter 4 in the Revenant when Glass was speaking to his son leaning versus a tree. A dark picture. With the Sony tonemapping there is is a grey veil, a lack of contrast and not enough shadow detail. With madVR there is no grey veil, the contrast and details are superb when all is set up properly. Now with the Envy there was no veil in that scene as well but less contrast and less details compared to the PC. We tried various levels of shadow recovery but this did not help much: the PC based tonemapping was just better here. Having said this: the Envy was all in all higly convincing and did a great job. Very, very well done Madshi. Congratulations !!! A friend of mine - still without a madVR based PC but owner of a VW870 - decided on the spot to buy the Envy Pro and placed today the order with Reto. It's graphic card is better than that of the PC we were using for the event He said it was a no brainer to go for the Pro . Something I had actually exspected from the very beginning

So this was already a great event so far but it even got better. Another friend of us showed then up and brought his Radiance Pro with him. He quickly installed it and briefly explained the parameters as he is an experienced user. We repeated then various scenes from the Revenant, Valerian and the MEG and compred the Lumagen tonemapping to that of the Envy. First we noticed that also the Lumagen could beat the Sony tonemapping. Generally speaking the Lumagen did a good job. But again there was a clear winner: the Envy. Sometimes the Radiance tonemapping was bright but lacked the contrast of the Envy. We started using the Lumagen recommendation of about a factor 4 of actual nits. But with MEG this was bright but lacked the contrast we are used to. With many scenes only by going from 440 to 1300 the contrast looked good. But the shadow details got then lost in darker scenes. General consensus of all of us: The Envy plays in a different and better league when it comes to DTM. The Envy was brilliant. I'd say: HDR at its best. With Envy you set it up once with one setting and you are home and dry. With the Envy we had used just one setting. With any other solution you are either continously changing the settings or you will see most scenes far from optimal.

Again my respect to Madshi for developping such a great product.
Quoted in full cause I like it a lot... I didn't even know that this event would take place, took me by surprise reading about it now!

Two comments:

1) The second HDMI port is not an input port but an output port which simply mirrors the input. It's basically a mini HDMI switch built into the Envy. Can be used e.g. for low latency gaming.

2) I assume that the quality difference you noticed in one scene, compared to the HTPC, was caused by the HSTM curve. The general algorithms are (currently) the same, so there's no reason why the HTPC should look better than the Envy. Still working on finalizing the HSTM curves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
On my madVr/PC with GTX 1070, I have subtle or maybe very different Nvidia “contrast, brightness, gamma, digital vibrance” settings per film. I always leave my JVC RS540 (flat) on factory settings.

I wonder if Madshi is applying some sort of algo to control the best Nvidia settings per film? That would be fantastic. And if so, I would pay dearly for a PC/madVR algo to do the same.
Uh, not a fan of digital vibrance, or using those other Nvidia controls. My recommendation would be to keep all those Nvidia controls at "media player controlled" (or whatever the setting is called) and use madVR's algos instead.

But no, Envy is not adjusting Nvidia settings per film.
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post #2321 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Sure, but there is also a "brightness" setting to compensate for that. I guess taking the screen size into account could be done automatically, possibly following Dolby's paper, but what really counts from a tonemapping point of view is how many nits are available. That might change with the same screen, for example if you use the zoom method with a scope screen. Then the additional brightness setting allows to tune to taste. Even if @madshi was to follow the Dolby paper, some might still find the result too dark or too bright, so as long as the algo can deal with the possible different peak brightness with the same screen, as well as a way to adjust to taste, that sounds good enough. Then of course madshi could add different memories etc, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

Again, I don't think there is any reason to worry, there are more than enough settings to accommodate most situations perfectly.
Certainly not worried about it, just bringing up some thoughts based on my experience with LOTS of different rooms/screen sizes. It is easy to get trapped into thinking about your own situation and applying that to everything. As a professional calibrator that travels around to LOTS of different setups, I see WAY more variation that I think most ever experience.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Please don't worry. We do listen to feedback. For your interest, our remote control even has a dedicated button now for virtual inputs and profiles. It's not working just yet, but it's the very next thing on my to do list. And I dare say, I believe you'll like how it will work (fully planned out in my head already).

If you find anything missing in the Envy (once you get to test it), I'm quite willing to listen to improvement suggestions.
Fantastic Madshi, and I had zero doubt that you'd be open to ideas and suggestions. I'm chomping at the bit for the opportunity to check out the product!

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Personally, I don't like the idea of distorting parts of the image, so I'm not a fan of NLS. However, it's easy enough to add, so if there's enough demand, Envy will get this feature sooner or later.
I'm not a fan of NLS either, but I'm surprised how many of my clients really like it. But I have found some usage cases that some have found work well for them. I have some clients that have scope screens with masking that is not variable, so only masks for 16x9. With so much content now at 2.0 and 2.2, they like NLS because the amount of stretch isn't that extreme but eliminates the little bit of bars from the sides. So while they don't care for it when it comes to 16x9 content, for wider aspects it isn't as bad. I have even setup some where I keep a 1.85 image inside the a 1.78 container so they can use their masks without cropping the sides off the 1.85 image. This leaves really small black bars above and below, but they would rather have that then chopping off the sides for the mask or leaving the masks off and having even larger bars to the sides. SO many different cases for people to think about that probably never even occur to them based on their own situations.


Quoted in full cause I like it a lot... I didn't even know that this event would take place, took me by surprise reading about it now!

Two comments:

1) The second HDMI port is not an input port but an output port which simply mirrors the input. It's basically a mini HDMI switch built into the Envy. Can be used e.g. for low latency gaming.

2) I assume that the quality difference you noticed in one scene, compared to the HTPC, was caused by the HSTM curve. The general algorithms are (currently) the same, so there's no reason why the HTPC should look better than the Envy. Still working on finalizing the HSTM curves.


Uh, not a fan of digital vibrance, or using those other Nvidia controls. My recommendation would be to keep all those Nvidia controls at "media player controlled" (or whatever the setting is called) and use madVR's algos instead.

But no, Envy is not adjusting Nvidia settings per film.[/QUOTE]

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@madshi
it was an inofficial meeting. Not public - a few insiders who took the opportunity to have a look on the Envy due to our network. It got its own dynamics since it is hard to control freaks like us. I would like to note that there were never more than 5 people in the room. So everything was in line with the official social distancy policy given out by our goverment. Admittedly we streched it a bit . So no chance here for people with the disgusting mindset of an IM of STASI. And sorry in case of any problems which my report may have caused for your business relationships. I hope that Richard is fine again.


I hope that the Envy that my friend has just ordered will be here soon. Then we will have plenty of time to analyse and test it. I will report again
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Sure, but there is also a "brightness" setting to compensate for that. I guess taking the screen size into account could be done automatically, possibly following Dolby's paper, but what really counts from a tonemapping point of view is how many nits are available. That might change with the same screen, for example if you use the zoom method with a scope screen. Then the additional brightness setting allows to tune to taste. Even if @madshi was to follow the Dolby paper, some might still find the result too dark or too bright, so as long as the algo can deal with the possible different peak brightness with the same screen, as well as a way to adjust to taste, that sounds good enough. Then of course madshi could add different memories etc, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

Again, I don't think there is any reason to worry, there are more than enough settings to accommodate most situations perfectly.
I thought the Envy DID allow for multiple memories i.e. multiple virtual inputs (Envy auto-detects your difference sources based on their EDID) ?
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post #2324 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
[snip]

1) The second HDMI port is not an input port but an output port which simply mirrors the input. It's basically a mini HDMI switch built into the Envy. Can be used e.g. for low latency gaming.

[snip]
Why couldn't a designated/primary HDMI output simply operate in a "passthru" so no processing is applied, thereby reducing latency? I assume there must be a technical limitation a dedicated port is needed.

Since my rack is 50 feet outside the theater, I want to avoid running a second hybrid-fiber HDMI cable to the projector for gaming mode. In this use-case, would you recommend an HDMI switcher (ex HD Fury) to merge the two Envy outputs to one cable? I am worried this would add a LOT of HDMI handshakes to the video chain (AVP-Envy-HD Fury-projector) which may cause issues.
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post #2325 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I'm not a fan of NLS either, but I'm surprised how many of my clients really like it. But I have found some usage cases that some have found work well for them. I have some clients that have scope screens with masking that is not variable, so only masks for 16x9. With so much content now at 2.0 and 2.2, they like NLS because the amount of stretch isn't that extreme but eliminates the little bit of bars from the sides. So while they don't care for it when it comes to 16x9 content, for wider aspects it isn't as bad. I have even setup some where I keep a 1.85 image inside the a 1.78 container so they can use their masks without cropping the sides off the 1.85 image. This leaves really small black bars above and below, but they would rather have that then chopping off the sides for the mask or leaving the masks off and having even larger bars to the sides. SO many different cases for people to think about that probably never even occur to them based on their own situations.
Yeah, I guess for very small aspect ratio mismatches, NLS might actually be usable. Didn't think about that, thanks for the heads-up. Should be pretty easy to add.

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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
it was an inofficial meeting. Not public - a few insiders who took the opportunity to have a look on the Envy due to our network. It got its own dynamics since it is hard to control freaks like us.
Haha, it's fine! Very happy about the positive feedback, of course!

Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
I thought the Envy DID allow for multiple memories i.e. multiple virtual inputs (Envy auto-detects your difference sources based on their EDID) ?
The EDID is only sent by HDMI input ports, not by HDMI output ports. After all, "EDID" stands for "Extended *Display* Identification Data", so it's an information block which describes a Display, not of a Source device. However, the source device can send an identification "info frame" to the AVR and the AVR hopefully forwards it to the Envy. And of course you'll be able to use IP control to switch virtual inputs, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Why couldn't a designated/primary HDMI output simply operate in a "passthru" so no processing is applied, thereby reducing latency? I assume there must be a technical limitation a dedicated port is needed.

Since my rack is 50 feet outside the theater, I want to avoid running a second hybrid-fiber HDMI cable to the projector for gaming mode. In this use-case, would you recommend an HDMI switcher (ex HD Fury) to merge the two Envy outputs to one cable? I am worried this would add a LOT of HDMI handshakes to the video chain (AVP-Envy-HD Fury-projector) which may cause issues.
Would have been nice, but it was technically not possible for us to implement for our first generation product. It would have required a dramatically more complex hardware design.

I don't have extensive experience with HDMI switchers. Hopefully there are some which have reliable & fast handshake ability? That would certainly be the nicest solution for cabling.
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post #2326 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 12:50 PM
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[snip] Fantastic Madshi, and I had zero doubt that you'd be open to ideas and suggestions. I'm chomping at the bit for the opportunity to check out the product![snip]
@madshi - let's get this gentleman an Envy to review I am sure many on this forum (including myself) would have their purchasing plans swayed towards Envy if this review was in-line with the other 2 reports now posted to AVS forums.
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post #2327 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 12:51 PM
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(Ric is perfectly fine, must have been a misunderstanding.)
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post #2328 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 01:34 PM
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(Ric is perfectly fine, must have been a misunderstanding.)
It was meant as a reply to that
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Kann sein, daß wenn Ric heute nachmittag aufwacht (USA Zeitzone), daß er ne Krise kriegt, weil eigentlich noch keine Vorführungen sein sollten.
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post #2329 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 01:36 PM
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Ah, makes sense now!
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post #2330 of 2720 Old 04-08-2020, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
*snip*
You are right, such a hard power down would indeed be a very bad idea, but I would expect most sensible people not to go that route.
*snip*
Might be off-topic, but if I had all the money to do whatever, I would have each of my software-having pieces of equipment on an independent switchable outlet so that when they inevitably lock-up I can flip a "switch" to "hard reboot" them (and, if it's software-controlled, hope it works, lol).


Too many times I've found myself cussing and crawling around my TV stand to pull a plug because the device on the other end locked up and won't respond to its front-panel or remote or anything else except a plug-pull event.


Point is, were I designing my "be-all-end-all system" I would employ a combination of both "hard power" and "soft power" remote commands and it would feel very "sensible" to me in the current landscape of bug-laden beta crap I pay good money for (well, I did, no longer, they can keep it or "pay" (I'll take a discount) me to test it). At least this way I don't have to explain to my wife which plug to pull, I can just pull it for her; even better if I can do it while logged into my VPN from anywhere in the world, lol.
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post #2331 of 2720 Old 04-09-2020, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Might be off-topic, but if I had all the money to do whatever, I would have each of my software-having pieces of equipment on an independent switchable outlet so that when they inevitably lock-up I can flip a "switch" to "hard reboot" them (and, if it's software-controlled, hope it works, lol).
Yes, that´s usually part of the solution when we do a design for an automated home cinema (or home).

So yes, that´s a good idea.
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post #2332 of 2720 Old 04-09-2020, 09:14 PM
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Yes, that´s usually part of the solution when we do a design for an automated home cinema (or home).

So yes, that´s a good idea.
I'm not very sophisticated so I use a simple control system like (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...4dUDCAw&uact=5). It has worked wonderfully for me. I had to control the sequence of power on "handshakes" to make it all work. I turn on source equip. first (PC in my case), then amps (Denon and Crown 1080P) and then PJ (JVC 4K). Then I use an HDFury Vertex as a last power on to pull the (1080p/4K devices) together. Never do I have handshake (EDID) issues. System ALWAYS comes up working. Hope this helps someone.

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post #2333 of 2720 Old 04-11-2020, 07:48 AM
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Are devices (PC-based or other) using Nvidia GPUs able to produce perfectly lossless image quality?

Someone raised doubts about this in another thread. Originally, I didn't really plan to comment on this topic. I thought my fellow AVSForum users would be able to recognize those comments for what they are. But I was asked to comment on this topic, anyway, so here goes:

When I received the final HDMI input hardware for the Envy, the very first thing I did was create proper test software to verify if the HDMI input is able to deliver the incoming pixel data perfectly losslessly. The test software consists of 2 parts:

1) One part runs on an HTPC. This part produces fullscreen lossless test videos, running in full framerate, with a stamped in frame counter.

2) The other part runs on the Envy, analyzing the incoming video signal. This part automatically detects which test video is running, reads the stamped in frame counter and is thus able to test if each incoming bit of each frame comes through perfectly losslessly, and also if any frames are dropped or repeated.

I ran this test multiple times for hours with 4K60 8bit RGB, 4K60 8bit YUV 4:4:4, 4K60 8-12bit YUV 4:2:2, 4K24 10/12bit RGB, 4K24 10/12bit YUV 4:4:4 and 4K24 10/12bit YUV 4:2:2.

When I first tested the HDMI input with this test software, I found all sorts of issues, like BTB/WTW being cut off, actual capture bit errors, frames being dropped etc. Consequently, I invested a lot of hours of cooperative development together with the provider of the HDMI input hardware to eliminate any and all such issues.

Today, the Envy tests perfectly losslessly, at any frame rate, bitdepth and pixel format for hours, without any frame drops or repeats. But of course, this is the very foundation of any video processor, we wouldn't have a product to sell otherwise. So it's not something to boast about, it's just laying the groundwork. So why am I telling you about it?

Let's come back to the original topic: The funny thing is that I didn't even intend to test whether my HTPC with an Nvidia GPU in it would be able to deliver perfectly lossless output, I just assumed it would. But if you think about, the Envy test software would not be able to report that it received perfectly lossless pixels from the HTPC, if my HTPC's Nvidia GPU would harm the pixels in any way. So basically I already did test the HDMI output of the Nvidia GPU, as well, even though that was not my original goal.

As a result, I can say with 100% confidence that devices using Nvidia GPUs are most certainly capable of producing perfect lossless output quality, with not a single bit damaged/modified. And my tests were done near max HDMI 2.0 bandwidth (18.0 Gbps), so I wasn't going easy, but I stressed the hardware as much as I could.

And let's be real here: Nvidia sells millions of GPUs each year. Sure, a large percentage of those go to gamers who couldn't care less about lossless quality. However, Nvidia GPUs are also used by countless professionals for photo editing, video editing, software development and even science, research and medical purposes. Nvidia would be buried by complaints from professional users if their cards damaged image quality in any way. Photo editors and software developers often work with their nose touching the screen (I know I do), so if anything would be amiss, it would be obvious very quickly.

Also, Nvidia GPUs can do Display Port 1.4 with 32.4 Gbps. So does anybody really think they can do that, but then struggle at HDMI 2.0's modest 18.0 Gbps? Makes no sense to me.

To sum up, through scientific testing and technical analysis I can confirm that devices, PC-based or other, using Nvidia GPUs (which includes the Envy) are definitely capable of producing perfectly lossless output quality via HDMI.

Hope that clears things up...

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post #2334 of 2720 Old 04-11-2020, 08:01 AM
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I assume ^^^ is in regards to "someone" claiming that PC's couldn't output good quality HDMI and would always be full of jitter?

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post #2335 of 2720 Old 04-11-2020, 09:36 AM
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madshi because you have the means of testing this.
could you test how nvidia is handling RGB bit deep conversation.
like rendered 10 bit full range RGB and outputting it as 12 bit full range RGB technically padding is not good enough in this case unlike limited range.
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post #2336 of 2720 Old 04-11-2020, 12:42 PM
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Today I had the great opportunity and pleasure to see and test the much anticipated Envy. [snip]
How loud were the fans? In other words, can this product be used in a living room or does it need to be in a sound-isolated rack?
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post #2337 of 2720 Old 04-11-2020, 01:35 PM
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How loud were the fans? In other words, can this product be used in a living room or does it need to be in a sound-isolated rack?
As I said earlier in the thread, the Envy (Extreme in my case) is whisper-quiet when idling and barely audible most of the time. I often forget to switch it off (it's quieter than my HTPC, which is pretty silent and uses Noctua fans and a quiet 1080ti EVGA SC-2).

It can be a bit more audible at full load (depending on the amount of processing / uscaling applied), but if you can live with the fan noise of the projector in low lamp (JVC RS2000 in my case), you won't have an issue with the Envy, it never raises above it.

The Envy sits on a desk about 3 feet behind my head, and the PJ is 2 feet above it, on a shelf.

It's a dedicated room because it's a bat cave with zero ambient light, but I don't have a hush box, so from this point of view it's similar to a living room.

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post #2338 of 2720 Old 04-11-2020, 05:32 PM
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@madshi , will there be a more affordable Envy-like product in the near feature for average joes like us who wanted a picture perfect 4K imagery w/o burning a hole in the pocket? Pardon me if this question has already been answered before.


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post #2339 of 2720 Old 04-11-2020, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I assume ^^^ is in regards to "someone" claiming that PC's couldn't output good quality HDMI and would always be full of jitter?
If memory serves, which in my case it often doesn’t, the context was the affect of jitter on audio quality. If so, that’s a far cry from your insinuation.
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post #2340 of 2720 Old 04-12-2020, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
If memory serves, which in my case it often doesn’t, the context was the affect of jitter on audio quality. If so, that’s a far cry from your insinuation.
No, it wasn't. There as even crazy talk about how 4K has some features where it will recreate a neighboring pixel with the data with the pixels around it, should that pixel be errored out by enough jitter. It was all about video.

Also, if video comes in bit perfect, which is significantly more data than audio, then audio is also able to come in perfectly.

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