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post #2431 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'm not fully across the constraints imposed by using the GPU AI - if things have to operate per pixel it is of course hard to implement stuff that looks at a number of pixels, but I guess many algorithms operate outside the bounds of the immediate pixel of concern? Or are those not able to be implemented with GPU AI?
You can do almost anything, using a framework such as CUDA, for example. However, if you want to do things with a good speed, you have to carefully design the algos to make use of the heavily parallel hardware design of today's GPUs. Usually typical video processing algorithms look into the direct neighborhood of each pixel, but not very far from the direct neighborhood.

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For what it is worth I think there are a lot of avenues that could be explored for making such things (more?) robust (enough?) if you can overcome such fundamental issues. Such as ways of working out exactly what the player is (user input or automated identification based on fingerprinting), so that the unpicking of whether or not the scaler is in use can be very specific to the scaler known to be used by that device, improving certainty. It strikes me once you know the player you need to understand where the content edges are, look at those edges for evidence of the scaler in operation, and then come to some conclusion on the likelihood that this image has been subject to a given scaler based on a very high percentage of edges exhibiting the same processing traits, with sufficient confidence (which probably has to be established over a number of frames) to ensure you don't flip flop between processing and not processing.

The trigger for entering such a processing mode becomes "Significant number of processed edges detected over multiple frames". The trigger for leaving such a mode is "Significant number of non-processed edges detected over multiple frames". Frames which have no significant edges (not sure how many of them in real content, but anyway) become "don't cares" and indeed that seems pretty legit as for those frames where there are no edges - you probably don't care either way. Obvious traps of course are I guess OSD overlays which may well be generated at 4K and have lots of non-processed edges in them...

Given the way things are going with physical media, and the likelihood of a "videophile" source direct player happening seems small, such features aimed at improving playback on such devices seem really attractive from a consumer point of view. Of course there's lots of stuff we'd all like that just isn't possible...!
Things like that may be possible, but would require a *lot* of work, and then when a new firmware of the source device comes out which may change the upscaling algorithm, you have to start all over again. I'm not sure how realistic it is to do algos like that. Maybe I'll look into things like that once I've run out of other algo ideas. But ideally, my priority will be to make Envy shine for "good" source device, which don't upscale, but properly passthrough all content in its native form.

That said, since most devices only support 4:2:0 for 4K60, I may implement some sort of chroma upscaling detection to try to undo whatever bad chroma upscaling algorithms the source device has applied.

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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Maybe the Envy reads the KSV which is a unique device identifier sent over HDMI.
Since we recommend to place the Envy in between AVR and display, Envy would just see the KSV of the AVR, not the KSV of the source device. So that wouldn't help identify which source device the AVR is currently set to.

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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Likely the same way the HDfury devices know the player name even though the HDfury is placed after the AVR. The Source Product Description Infoframe (SPD).
Yep, that's the plan.

We're not fully sure yet how reliably this will work, though, because not all source devices output SPD InfoFrames, and not all AVRs pass them through properly (though probably newer ones will). Only time will tell. But of course if all else fails, Envy can be remote controlled via IP control.

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Originally Posted by catav View Post
Will Envy process a video stream (what ever that is) with exactly the same “possibilities” as madVR/HTPC does? Sounds like scaling could be an issue. DTM might not be a problem. But, if the source doesn’t let Envy have the final say on scaling, how does Envy have any chance? After all, that is one of madVR’s strongest algos (NGU).

Not that I don't love HSTM/DTM, also! But scaling is very important to my setup.
Picking a good source device will be key, of course. Ideally one which has a properly working "passthrough" mode. Oppo UHD Blu-Ray players come to mind. IIRC they do have such a mode. Only problem is that they don't support 4:2:0 output for anything but 4K60.

We may also try to work together with source device companies to optimize their source devices for best quality. We already have contact to one such company. They may consider adding 4:2:0 support for 1080p, as well. But it's all in the early stages right now, so I can't really say any more about it at this point.

In any case, Envy has all the same algos available as madVR. I might not make every algo available, for the simple reason that I want to keep the Envy menu as easy to use as possible. But if Envy misses any algo compared to madVR, it's only for ease-of-use reasons, not for any other reasons. And Envy already has a few tricks up its sleeve which madVR can not do, and more things are coming.

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Originally Posted by robl2 View Post
That's actually great to hear. Out of curiosity, did you generate the test frames on the PC side on Windows (10?) or Linux?
Windows. Nvidia drivers are one of those things where Windows actually has an edge over Linux. For the simple reason that most gamers use Windows. So Nvidia invests most of its driver development resources into the Windows drivers.

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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Any news ?
I've just made a new firmware available for our private beta testers which adds:

1) full 3D support (only for 1080p24)

Needs testing to confirm it works reliably. But looks good so far, and it will mean Envy can do full frame packed 3D, after all (!).

2) motion adaptive deinterlacer, using NGU Anti-Alias for interpolation

This will be mostly useful for EU users, I guess, where 1080i50 is still commonly used, e.g. for soccer. Not sure if it will be of any use to USA users? Ric tells me interlaced content has mostly disappeared in USA.

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Originally Posted by Interpolation View Post
I'm a long time madVR and SVP user. Currently using an i9-7900x for interpolation and RTX 2080 Ti for madVR. My GPU is also overclocked as far as I can stably push it. Even though the CPU is relatively dated compared to the new AMD processors, it can run SVP at high settings and frame rates at 1080p / high bitrate sources.

Since increasing the frame rate with SVP also increases the amount of work for madVR, I need a balance between target resolution, madVR upscaling quality, and frame rate.

When upscaling 1080P content to 1440p, I have madVR chroma and image upscaling set to NGU antialias high which gives noticeably better results than NGU medium. SVP interpolates up to 120 FPS. The television handles the final upscaling from 1440P to 4K. Frames are rarely dropped.

If I want to upscale from 1080P to 4K using madVR alone, I would need to reduce the svp interpolation frame rate to 60 or less. SVP interpolation is much better than the TV and I find the trade-off better than the difference in upscaling from 1080P to 1440p vs 1080P to 4K.

The PC consumes 500 to 600 watts under load and sounds like a small hurricane, so I need to locate the PC in another room and run a long HDMI cable.

Anyway, I have several questions.

1. How does the madVR ENVY compare to the performance I just described? I'd like to know my general level of envy at such a device.
2. Does the madVR ENVY have customizable settings?
3. What software is being used for interpolation?
4. Is the madVR ENVY modular in any way e.g. swapping out the CPU or GPU.
5. How does the madVR ENVY handle cooling and fan noise?
1. In the long run I plan to make use of the Tensor cores to speed upscaling up, and to implement high quality motion interpolation (hope to beat SVP in quality, but we'll have to wait and see).
2. Sure. It's optimized for ease of use, though. So it doesn't have as many tweak options as madVR. It offsets some of that by choosing automatically and intelligently for you. E.g. you don't have to manually select the NGU quality levels. Envy will do that automatically for you, in such a way that the GPU has a good usage percentage but doesn't drop any frames.
3. You mean SVP like? Not available yet, but it's planned. Will be my own software, using neural networks.
4. Yes and no. The hardware is modular, and we do plan to make upgrades available (e.g. HDMI 2.1). But we can't allow the user access, due to HDCP restrictions. And also due to business reasons. And the cheaper Pro model will probably only get an HDMI 2.1 upgrade, and no further upgrades after that.
5. We've done comparison tests and carefully picked the best GPU cooling solution we could find. Beta testers seem fairly happy with the noise (or lack thereof).

It's interesting that you can see a noticeable difference between NGU Medium and High quality for chroma upscaling. Most users (probably including me) would have a hard time seeing a difference there. Might depend on the content, I guess. Maybe you're using a lot of Anime? I could imagine it making a bigger difference for Anime, compared to other content types.
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post #2432 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
1) full 3D support (only for 1080p24)

Needs testing to confirm it works reliably. But looks good so far, and it will mean Envy can do full frame packed 3D, after all (!).
do you make this possible on the PC version too? if user are willing to do the necessary i assume are needed to make it work?
Quote:
2) motion adaptive deinterlacer, using NGU Anti-Alias for interpolation

This will be mostly useful for EU users, I guess, where 1080i50 is still commonly used, e.g. for soccer. Not sure if it will be of any use to USA users? Ric tells me interlaced content has mostly disappeared in USA.
envy only? i would love to test it. amd thinks frame adaptive deint is bilinear bob...

old concerts on BD and DVD go no where.

edit: because you are working/or was working on deint is it possible to talk about some "advanced" deint techniques which will be possible in the near fututre now where it seem to be the case that 120 HZ naively is a "basic" feature?
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post #2433 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've just made a new firmware available for our private beta testers which adds:

1) full 3D support (only for 1080p24)

Needs testing to confirm it works reliably. But looks good so far, and it will mean Envy can do full frame packed 3D, after all (!).
I assume that is just passthrough, correct? Since there is no opportunity to upscale. Also, I doubt there would ever be support for Left/Right 4K upscaled over two DisplayPort connections, which enables 4K 3D on some displays. I would imagine that is too limited a market.

Abstract yourself!
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post #2434 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
do you make this possible on the PC version too? if user are willing to do the necessary i assume are needed to make it work?
Yes. The next madVR HTPC build will probably make 3D work again for Nvidia. But limited to windowed mode and fullscreen windowed mode. It crashes in FSE mode, for reasons I currently don't understand. I hope I didn't break anything for AMD.

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envy only? i would love to test it. amd thinks frame adaptive deint is bilinear bob...
Envy only for now.

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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
edit: because you are working/or was working on deint is it possible to talk about some "advanced" deint techniques which will be possible in the near fututre now where it seem to be the case that 120 HZ naively is a "basic" feature?
What do you mean? I think nobody uses interlacing for anything but 50i and 60i content. So the best way to deint seems to be to go to 50p/60p first, and then maybe use motion interpolation to go up to 100p or 120p (if that's really needed)?

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Originally Posted by bjorg View Post
I assume that is just passthrough, correct? Since there is no opportunity to upscale. Also, I doubt there would ever be support for Left/Right 4K upscaled over two DisplayPort connections, which enables 4K 3D on some displays. I would imagine that is too limited a market.
It's mostly passthrough. Though, stuff like aspect ratio detection, anamorphic stretch, debanding etc should all work. And yes, outputting over two DisplayPort connections seems a bit exotic, at least for now. In the long run maybe we could consider exotic ideas, but definitely not soon.
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post #2435 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Envy only for now.
welp poor me.

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What do you mean? I think nobody uses interlacing for anything but 50i and 60i content. So the best way to deint seems to be to go to 50p/60p first, and then maybe use motion interpolation to go up to 100p or 120p (if that's really needed)?
i'm the last person to use interpolation but i'm talking about the very common mixed content and the fact that switching between modes is not user friendly.
sony for a long time and samsung LG (there are more brand that can do this now is a relative basic feature now)can all do deint and field match on the fly if the panel is natively 120 hz. and it's relative simple in theory: can you field match it? yes do it and arrange the frames for 120 hz output. can you not field match it deint it.

if you field match a source for 24p you can't display it at 60 HZ without judder but you can at 120 HZ and you can display interlaced content at 120 hz. so with other word you can do both which madVr is currently not able to do. even at 60 Hz madVR has other tools available to make this work smooth motion. not optimal but this better then the current solution.
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post #2436 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
i'm the last person to use interpolation but i'm talking about the very common mixed content and the fact that switching between modes is not user friendly.
sony for a long time and samsung LG (there are more brand that can do this now is a relative basic feature now)can all do deint and field match on the fly if the panel is natively 120 hz. and it's relative simple in theory: can you field match it? yes do it and arrange the frames for 120 hz output. can you not field match it deint it.

if you field match a source for 24p you can't display it at 60 HZ without judder but you can at 120 HZ and you can display interlaced content at 120 hz. so with other word you can do both which madVr is currently not able to do. even at 60 Hz madVR has other tools available to make this work smooth motion. not optimal but this better then the current solution.
Ah, I see what you mean. I had already thought about this myself. My idea on how to solve this is to use "smooth motion" frame blending for field matched pixels. So truly interlaced pixels would be properly deinterlaced to 60p and telecined pixels would be IVTCed to 24p and then frame blended to 60p.
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the 120 HZ version of this would be error "free" because instead of recreating 24p you are not dropping field you are just moving fields or just deint frames.

so if your frame adaptive NGU AA is really good like nvidia and intel (and AMD in the past) you get a very high quality progressive 3:2 judder in it by just detecting 3 very similar frames followed by 2 very similar frames (multiply this be a lot for anime) you show the 3 frames 5 times be repeating 2 of them and the 2 frames again 5 times by repeating 3. so even if the algorithm does a misdirection the error would be very small.

the issue with madVR is you really have to move this repeating part to presentation to spare processing power.

for 60 Hz with smooth motion you could detect the 3 frames repeated and drop one of them still very save and this should work wonder for the not that rare 4:2:2:2 by just finding the 4 and dropping two of them. for smooth motion it doesn't really matter if it is 48 with two repeated or 24p it would repeat these frame anyway when the target is 60 fps.
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post #2438 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 11:24 AM
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Yeah, but to be honest, interest in deinterlacing has been on the decline for a long time, so it's not a priority atm. The algo I implemented now is quite simple and straightforward, so it didn't cost me a lot of time to implement, while I still think it should look pretty decent. I would like to look into deinterlacing again in the future in more detail, but it will take some time to get there because frankly other algos seem more important atm.
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post #2439 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes. The next madVR HTPC build will probably make 3D work again for Nvidia. But limited to windowed mode and fullscreen windowed mode. It crashes in FSE mode, for reasons I currently don't understand. I hope I didn't break anything for AMD.
just to be sure you didn't forget to change the disable optimise fullscreen compatibility win 10 settings?
maybe it helps for FSE maybe it's the reason it crashes.

and in the end FSE is pretty much hated anyway.
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post #2440 of 2520 Old 05-22-2020, 10:04 PM
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Hi Madshi. I've been reading about MadVR for years and am happy to learn the fact that you've managed to turn into a high quality real-time processor. Well done !

I have a few questions:-
  1. I'm just wondering how the Envy would would perform with DLP projectors such as the Optoma UHZ65 in terms of tone-mapping, noise reduction, upscaling and calibration (3D LUT) ? - I know the entry level envy would cost more than the projector itself but if the end-results are exceptional then it begins to make sense from a total cost point of view.
  2. Could Envy simulate a true RGBRGB or P3 filter to create an image that is similar or close to what a properly tone-mapped projector with a real P3 filter would produce without necessarily losing the luminance. I think the highlight recovery could form part of this in conjunction with shadow recovery and intelligent colour saturation algorithms. A real time and frame by frame dynamic contrast ability would also be nice.
  3. As a personal preference, I have always preferred DLP over LCOS because of the sharpness and colour POP (Colour contrast) of DLP engines. However, I am wondering if the same results can be achieved with LCOS in conjunction with the Envy. Would be nice to see what Envy can do with projectors such as JVC's current 4K range: NX5, NX7 and NX9.
Please let me have your thoughts....

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post #2441 of 2520 Old 05-23-2020, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
just to be sure you didn't forget to change the disable optimise fullscreen compatibility win 10 settings?
maybe it helps for FSE maybe it's the reason it crashes.
I don't think that's the cause of the problem. It's a crash somewhere in an Nvidia driver dll, but I'll double check, just to be safe.

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Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
  1. I'm just wondering how the Envy would would perform with DLP projectors such as the Optoma UHZ65 in terms of tone-mapping, noise reduction, upscaling and calibration (3D LUT) ? - I know the entry level envy would cost more than the projector itself but if the end-results are exceptional then it begins to make sense from a total cost point of view.
  2. Could Envy simulate a true RGBRGB or P3 filter to create an image that is similar or close to what a properly tone-mapped projector with a real P3 filter would produce without necessarily losing the luminance. I think the highlight recovery could form part of this in conjunction with shadow recovery and intelligent colour saturation algorithms. A real time and frame by frame dynamic contrast ability would also be nice.
  3. As a personal preference, I have always preferred DLP over LCOS because of the sharpness and colour POP (Colour contrast) of DLP engines. However, I am wondering if the same results can be achieved with LCOS in conjunction with the Envy. Would be nice to see what Envy can do with projectors such as JVC's current 4K range: NX5, NX7 and NX9.
1.

The primary target audience for the Envy is probably users whose projectors are more expensive than the Envy. However, that doesn't mean that the Envy can't be a great value for owners of budget projectors, as well. I guess it mostly depends on how much HDR content you're watching, how much 1080p content you're watching and how good or bad the tone mapping and upscaling algos in your Optoma are.

I would say that if HDR plays a big role for you, then you might gain more image quality by using Envy's tone mapping than upgrading to a better projector, simply because the quality difference between good and bad tone mapping can be gigantic. If HDR is not overly important to you, then *maybe* upgrading to a better projector might be a wiser investment. But I'm not really all too familiar with the DLP projector market. I'm not sure how much image quality you will gain by buying a better DLP projector, to be honest.

All the algos you mention should be useful for any kind of projector, including DLP. Although noise reduction is a special case: I'm personally not a big fan of noise reduction, because it usually also damages image detail. I do plan to add a multi-frame motion compensated noise reduction algo to the Envy Extreme some time in the future, which should be able to reduce noise without harming image detail much (if any) at all. But this algo will probably only be available in the more expensive Extreme model. For the Pro model there are algos you can use like e.g. "reduce compression artifacts" or "reduce banding artifacts" which work pretty well. But their purpose is not to reduce random noise or grain, if that is what you're looking for.

2.

To be honest, I'm not sure how the science works with color filters. Do they just filter away some color wavelengths? Or do they actually manage to modify the color wavelengths somehow? If they really just filter then *maybe* a good 3DLUT calibration could achieve the same effect while maybe losing less light? But I don't really know, to be honest. Hopefully a calibrator can chime in on this topic?

Envy does have a couple of nice HDR related algos which you mentioned. There is one which tries to restore image contrast (which was lost by tone mapping). But these algos are mostly aimed at restoring the properties of the original HDR master, to lessen the damage/loss caused by tone mapping. So these algos won't do anything for SDR content. Potentially I could also add a dynamic contrast enhancer for SDR content, but it's low priority atm.

3.

I can't really say much useful here. Envy does have very sharp up- and downscaling algorithms, and also extra algos to restore lost sharpness & detail in HDR highlights which was lost due to tone mapping. So using Envy should improve the overall sharpness impression. However, you'll get the same sharpness improvements regardless of projector technology, so I'm not sure if that would close or widen the perceived sharpness gap between DLP and LCoS?

-------

Generally, if you happen to have a Windows gaming PC, you could simply try to install the madVR HTPC software, to get some first impressions. That might allow you to evaluate the image quality you would get from the Envy. However, unlike the Envy, the HTPC software is not straightforward to setup. You'll need to use the "right" HTPC software test build to get the latest HDR tone mapping algos, and you need to change a lot of settings to tune it for best quality. But if you're willing to spend some time and effort there, it could serve as a good evaluation.
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post #2442 of 2520 Old 05-23-2020, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I don't think that's the cause of the problem. It's a crash somewhere in an Nvidia driver dll, but I'll double check, just to be safe.


1.

The primary target audience for the Envy is probably users whose projectors are more expensive than the Envy. However, that doesn't mean that the Envy can't be a great value for owners of budget projectors, as well. I guess it mostly depends on how much HDR content you're watching, how much 1080p content you're watching and how good or bad the tone mapping and upscaling algos in your Optoma are.

I would say that if HDR plays a big role for you, then you might gain more image quality by using Envy's tone mapping than upgrading to a better projector, simply because the quality difference between good and bad tone mapping can be gigantic. If HDR is not overly important to you, then *maybe* upgrading to a better projector might be a wiser investment. But I'm not really all too familiar with the DLP projector market. I'm not sure how much image quality you will gain by buying a better DLP projector, to be honest.

All the algos you mention should be useful for any kind of projector, including DLP. Although noise reduction is a special case: I'm personally not a big fan of noise reduction, because it usually also damages image detail. I do plan to add a multi-frame motion compensated noise reduction algo to the Envy Extreme some time in the future, which should be able to reduce noise without harming image detail much (if any) at all. But this algo will probably only be available in the more expensive Extreme model. For the Pro model there are algos you can use like e.g. "reduce compression artifacts" or "reduce banding artifacts" which work pretty well. But their purpose is not to reduce random noise or grain, if that is what you're looking for.

2.

To be honest, I'm not sure how the science works with color filters. Do they just filter away some color wavelengths? Or do they actually manage to modify the color wavelengths somehow? If they really just filter then *maybe* a good 3DLUT calibration could achieve the same effect while maybe losing less light? But I don't really know, to be honest. Hopefully a calibrator can chime in on this topic?

Envy does have a couple of nice HDR related algos which you mentioned. There is one which tries to restore image contrast (which was lost by tone mapping). But these algos are mostly aimed at restoring the properties of the original HDR master, to lessen the damage/loss caused by tone mapping. So these algos won't do anything for SDR content. Potentially I could also add a dynamic contrast enhancer for SDR content, but it's low priority atm.

3.

I can't really say much useful here. Envy does have very sharp up- and downscaling algorithms, and also extra algos to restore lost sharpness & detail in HDR highlights which was lost due to tone mapping. So using Envy should improve the overall sharpness impression. However, you'll get the same sharpness improvements regardless of projector technology, so I'm not sure if that would close or widen the perceived sharpness gap between DLP and LCoS?

-------

Generally, if you happen to have a Windows gaming PC, you could simply try to install the madVR HTPC software, to get some first impressions. That might allow you to evaluate the image quality you would get from the Envy. However, unlike the Envy, the HTPC software is not straightforward to setup. You'll need to use the "right" HTPC software test build to get the latest HDR tone mapping algos, and you need to change a lot of settings to tune it for best quality. But if you're willing to spend some time and effort there, it could serve as a good evaluation.
Thank you fo the comprehensive reply, I appreciate it.
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post #2443 of 2520 Old 05-25-2020, 05:21 AM
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For about two and a half years I have been using the Madvr version for Htpc with the OPTOMA UHZ 65 (before i used Madvr with JVC RS46, X5000 and EPSON 9300) by performing two 3dluts via DISPLAYCAL one in SDR-DCIP3 and another in BT.709, I can only say that Madvr has completely changed the face of this projector....I calibrated a friend's SONY 570 several times and saw the JVC N7 and I tell you that (excluding black) I didn't feel the need to change the OPTOMA.
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post #2444 of 2520 Old 05-25-2020, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by stefanelli73 View Post
For about two and a half years I have been using the Madvr version for Htpc with the OPTOMA UHZ 65 (before i used Madvr with JVC RS46, X5000 and EPSON 9300) by performing two 3dluts via DISPLAYCAL one in SDR-DCIP3 and another in BT.709, I can only say that Madvr has completely changed the face of this projector....I calibrated a friend's SONY 570 several times and saw the JVC N7 and I tell you that (excluding black) I didn't feel the need to change the OPTOMA.
Thank you very much for sharing that Stefanelli, very kind and thoughtful of you.

1. With Madvr on an HTPC, I presume you are restricted to local content unlike the ENVY which allows external sources - is that right ?

2. Glad you have experience with JVC too. I know JVC CR is excellent but I prefer the image and sharpness of DLP - what was your experience with N7+Madvr ?

3. Just need you to clarify. You performed two 3DLUTS, one for SDR (Rec709) and one for HDR (using SDR or max gamut) - This is because the UHZ65 does not have an HDR filter so you are using a single SDR colour gamut in the projector, is that right ?

4. I am looking at upgrading my calibration tools. I read about Displaycal a year ago and remember that it is based on ArgyllCMS but I had no idea that one can use it to calibrate projectors. I suppose Displaycal generates a colour 3DLUT based profile which is recognised by Madvr, is that right ? What hardware probe do you use i1Display Pro ?

5. I assume that Madvr automatically picks the right 3DLUT based on source file metadata and uses its tone mapping algorithms for HDR files ?

6. What is the format of the profiles generates by Displaycal ? - Is it ICC ?

7. What mode in the projector did you use to generate the 3DLUTs ? - It's obviously the Reference or Cinema mode right ?

8. What is the post calibration brightness ? - Is it sittng at about 1,000 lumens or does it exceed that ?

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post #2445 of 2520 Old 05-25-2020, 07:54 AM
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Madshi, will the entry model of the Envy be able to provide tone-mapping, edge enhancement without noise, upscaling and calibration at the same time during movie playback ?

What features does the advanced version have over the entry level version ?
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post #2446 of 2520 Old 05-25-2020, 08:33 AM
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2.

To be honest, I'm not sure how the science works with color filters. Do they just filter away some color wavelengths? Or do they actually manage to modify the color wavelengths somehow? If they really just filter then *maybe* a good 3DLUT calibration could achieve the same effect while maybe losing less light? But I don't really know, to be honest. Hopefully a calibrator can chime in on this topic?
Not a pro calibrator but had more than a little bit of fun playing with filters.

It's not possible to achieve in SW the wider gamut a filter based system achieves. They filter out wavelengths of light from the lamp to allow the primaries to extend further out.
In the case of the JVC this is filtering yellow from the green (and possibly red, depending on model) light paths.
In digital cinema applications often an yellow and cyan notch filter.
Some "useful" background here for those interested...
http://www.loreti.it/Download/PDF/DM...CinemaTalk.pdf

There is no software way to do this because the greenest that you can drive (0,255,0) will still have yellow light coming through from the lamp, which is what pulls the gamut inwards (yellow + green = a bit less green).
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post #2447 of 2520 Old 05-25-2020, 08:38 AM
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Not a pro calibrator but had more than a little bit of fun playing with filters.

It's not possible to achieve in SW the wider gamut a filter based system achieves. They filter out wavelengths of light from the lamp to allow the primaries to extend further out.
In the case of the JVC this is filtering yellow from the green (and possibly red, depending on model) light paths.
In digital cinema applications often an yellow and cyan notch filter.
Some "useful" background here for those interested...
http://www.loreti.it/Download/PDF/DM...CinemaTalk.pdf

There is no software way to do this because the greenest that you can drive (0,255,0) will still have yellow light coming through from the lamp, which is what pulls the gamut inwards (yellow + green = a bit less green).
Thank you Bobof, that does make sense - projector manufacturers would not go through the trouble of including separate HDR filters if gamuts could be widened via software.

PS - Thanks for the reference document.
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post #2448 of 2520 Old 05-25-2020, 09:40 AM
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Thank you Bobof, that does make sense - projector manufacturers would not go through the trouble of including separate HDR filters if gamuts could be widened via software.

PS - Thanks for the reference document.
You're welcome.

DLP manufacturers go one further the other way sometimes - including yellow segments in the colour wheel to get more brightness at some further cost of gamut coverage. This is sometimes a reason for very small gamuts on some very bright small DLP units.
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post #2449 of 2520 Old 05-25-2020, 10:18 AM
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You're welcome.

DLP manufacturers go one further the other way sometimes - including yellow segments in the colour wheel to get more brightness at some further cost of gamut coverage. This is sometimes a reason for very small gamuts on some very bright small DLP units.
You're absolutely right, the Optoma UHZ65 has an RGBY colour wheel although they've tried to optimise image fidelity as much as possible. The best results obviously come from RGBRGB wheels at the expense of brightness.
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post #2450 of 2520 Old 05-26-2020, 01:15 PM
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I see a bunch of people talking about 3D support for nVidia.

You can re-enable 3D support for the latest nVidia drivers and Windows 10 versions with the latest version 1.75 of 3D Fix Manager FWIW.

http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2017/05...x-manager.html
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post #2451 of 2520 Old 05-26-2020, 02:37 PM
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I see a bunch of people talking about 3D support for nVidia.

You can re-enable 3D support for the latest nVidia drivers and Windows 10 versions with the latest version 1.75 of 3D Fix Manager FWIW.

http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2017/05...x-manager.html
i tried it some time ago but didnt work but it seems its updated it now to work with latest updates.

thank you for the heads up.

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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I see a bunch of people talking about 3D support for nVidia.

You can re-enable 3D support for the latest nVidia drivers and Windows 10 versions with the latest version 1.75 of 3D Fix Manager FWIW.

http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2017/05...x-manager.html

Does this mean Envy will has 3D support without a separate hdmi pass thru ?!
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Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Madshi, will the entry model of the Envy be able to provide tone-mapping, edge enhancement without noise, upscaling and calibration at the same time during movie playback ?

What features does the advanced version have over the entry level version ?
See link: http://madvr.com/EnvyModelComparison.pdf
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Does this mean Envy will has 3D support without a separate hdmi pass thru ?!
Madshi wrote this on post 2431, so I believe yes!

"I've just made a new firmware available for our private beta testers which adds:

1) full 3D support (only for 1080p24)

Needs testing to confirm it works reliably. But looks good so far, and it will mean Envy can do full frame packed 3D, after all (!)."


"It's mostly passthrough. Though, stuff like aspect ratio detection, anamorphic stretch, debanding etc should all work."
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post #2455 of 2520 Old 05-27-2020, 05:19 AM
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Thank you very much for sharing that Stefanelli, very kind and thoughtful of you.

1. With Madvr on an HTPC, I presume you are restricted to local content unlike the ENVY which allows external sources - is that right ?

2. Glad you have experience with JVC too. I know JVC CR is excellent but I prefer the image and sharpness of DLP - what was your experience with N7+Madvr ?

3. Just need you to clarify. You performed two 3DLUTS, one for SDR (Rec709) and one for HDR (using SDR or max gamut) - This is because the UHZ65 does not have an HDR filter so you are using a single SDR colour gamut in the projector, is that right ?

4. I am looking at upgrading my calibration tools. I read about Displaycal a year ago and remember that it is based on ArgyllCMS but I had no idea that one can use it to calibrate projectors. I suppose Displaycal generates a colour 3DLUT based profile which is recognised by Madvr, is that right ? What hardware probe do you use i1Display Pro ?

5. I assume that Madvr automatically picks the right 3DLUT based on source file metadata and uses its tone mapping algorithms for HDR files ?

6. What is the format of the profiles generates by Displaycal ? - Is it ICC ?

7. What mode in the projector did you use to generate the 3DLUTs ? - It's obviously the Reference or Cinema mode right ?

8. What is the post calibration brightness ? - Is it sittng at about 1,000 lumens or does it exceed that ?
1. I don't think I understand your question, sorry;

2. I saw it from a reseller friend, calibrated with Displaycal, while the SONY 570 I calibrated it a couple of times from a friend... the boost Madvr gives to both projectors is remarkable;

3. yes, I use NATIVE for both;

4. yes, ione Dispaly pro and Chromapure software;

5. yes;

6. yes;

7. CINEMA;

8. before calibration on a 244 cm screen. (110'), gain 1.2, dark room, I have just over 90 nits, after calibration 84 nits, 100% laser.
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post #2456 of 2520 Old 05-27-2020, 06:06 AM
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4. yes, ione Dispaly pro and Chromapure software;
I didn't think that Chromapure could generate 3DLUTs for anything other than Lumagen devices (and even then it wasn't very good when I last used it as it uses some iterative LUT tweaking method). You'd want to consider an upgrade to something like Colourspace, or as a free option use DisplayCal / ArgyllCMS.
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post #2457 of 2520 Old 05-27-2020, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I didn't think that Chromapure could generate 3DLUTs for anything other than Lumagen devices (and even then it wasn't very good when I last used it as it uses some iterative LUT tweaking method). You'd want to consider an upgrade to something like Colourspace, or as a free option use DisplayCal / ArgyllCMS.
Chromapure I use it only for the white point (80 ire and 20ire), for the gamut use Displaycal....read the post 2443

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post #2458 of 2520 Old 05-27-2020, 11:20 AM
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Chromapure I use it only for the white point (80 ire and 20ire), for the gamut use Displaycal....read the post 2443
OK, I couldn't understand why bring up Chromapure in an answer to a question about 3DLUT. Anyway, moving on, I see you don't use it for that.
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post #2459 of 2520 Old 05-27-2020, 10:43 PM
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Are we talking about not much longer as..... 4th of July? Labor Day? Christmas?

My wallet is killing me right now.
Yes.

Sorry for the delay in responding - things continue to be crazy busy. I'll try to answer your question on the timing indirectly, because we don't have an exact answer and we'd rather not speculate further... The hardware has been final for months now. I think its easy to mistake no news to mean no progress, but its actually the opposite. Things are only still "beta" because we're being very conservative and fine tuning the firmware side to try and make things perfect. A few weeks ago we sold out (in just a week) of another large batch of private beta units that have now largely shipped, with the remainder going out as fast as we can keep building them, over the next week. If the feedback from this new group is what we hope, then we should be ready. We'll probably then lift the NDA and start with a short public beta testing round, open those on the Buyers Interest List on a first come, first serve basis.

Speaking of which, here's a quote that a private beta customer (who just got his unit a couple days ago) sent to his dealer. I'm posting it here with the user's permission:

Quote:
Before starting, just want to say: OMG !!!
Forget the LLDV tweak ;-) Envy just kills it. Actually it kills everything I saw before. I’m interested to see what Envy could do with a DolbyVision source considering what it can already do with HDR.
And the most interesting, it improves in a consistent way, all the sources (I don’t see so much differences between my Oppo and my Vero 4K). Its name should be MadVR Magic. Finally we have the plug and play for all sources, all movies... before I was able to clearly identify the player who was playing the movie. With madVR Envy, it becomes really difficult. Not that the source doesn’t count anymore but the Envy does a such damn good job that it required me more effort to see the difference. It’s just impressive! And impressive also because the image is the best I’ve ever seen... It’s so cool that you feel the image is really good and you don’t feel the need to tweak anymore your config for each movies... no more never ending nights trying to find the best config you can use for all movies with LLDV, sources config, projector. It’s just work as you “dream” it should."
Special thanks to this user for his nice feedback and allowing us to share it with you as a nugget of what's to come. As Mathias and I have said, we are sorry about the long wait guys, but we really hope you will find it was worth it. Thank you everyone for your great support!
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post #2460 of 2520 Old 05-28-2020, 04:01 AM
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Yes.
A few weeks ago we sold out (in just a week) of another large batch of private beta units that have now largely shipped, with the remainder going out as fast as we can keep building them, over the next week. If the feedback from this new group is what we hope, then we should be ready. We'll probably then lift the NDA and start with a short public beta testing round, open those on the Buyers Interest List on a first come, first serve basis.
Many thanks for this much anticipated update on what is going on.
Not sure whether I have understood this correctly: you have sold a larger batch to private beta tester and shipped them with the last units going out next week. These buyers are under NDA.
If the feedback is positive you will open then another round for buyers who have registered in the Buyers Interest List and those people are then not under NDA. So these people are then allowed to share their experiences with the Envy and so we can finallly freely discuss the Envy based on customer feedback ? Is this correct like that ?

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