Any benefit in converting 4K HDR to 1080p SDR if native 1080p SDR is available? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 06-21-2019, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Any benefit in converting 4K HDR to 1080p SDR if native 1080p SDR is available?

If I have a 1080p SDR TV, is there any benefit in converting/tone mapping 4K HDR to 1080p SDR if a 1080p SDR source is available?

Here are two examples:

1) PS4/Xbox games. Is it better to have PS4/Xbox output at 4K HDR (or 1080p HDR) and then have HDfury (or other device) convert/tone map to 1080p SDR? ...or is it better to just have PS4/Xbox output 1080p SDR directly?

2) Bluray. Is it better to play a 4K HDR bluray tone mapped/converted to 1080p SDR for a 1080p TV, or is a native 1080p SDR bluray going to be better?
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post #2 of 14 Old 06-23-2019, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofakng View Post
If I have a 1080p SDR TV, is there any benefit in converting/tone mapping 4K HDR to 1080p SDR if a 1080p SDR source is available?

Here are two examples:

1) PS4/Xbox games. Is it better to have PS4/Xbox output at 4K HDR (or 1080p HDR) and then have HDfury (or other device) convert/tone map to 1080p SDR? ...or is it better to just have PS4/Xbox output 1080p SDR directly?

2) Bluray. Is it better to play a 4K HDR bluray tone mapped/converted to 1080p SDR for a 1080p TV, or is a native 1080p SDR bluray going to be better?

I'm answering cause no one have done it yet.
If SDR tone mapping is really good then it should be better to do 4K HDR > 1080p SDR rather than SDR directly, new Diva SDR tone mapping profile should make this a reality in a few days.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
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post #3 of 14 Old 06-23-2019, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again for the help as always!
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post #4 of 14 Old 06-23-2019, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofakng View Post
If I have a 1080p SDR TV, is there any benefit in converting/tone mapping 4K HDR to 1080p SDR if a 1080p SDR source is available?

Here are two examples:

1) PS4/Xbox games. Is it better to have PS4/Xbox output at 4K HDR (or 1080p HDR) and then have HDfury (or other device) convert/tone map to 1080p SDR? ...or is it better to just have PS4/Xbox output 1080p SDR directly?
Diva arrived today and it took some adjustments to get it looking good but I can absolutely say there is a difference over 1080p SDR, especially on a PS4 Pro with 1080p + HDR + supersampling enabled. It looks just as good on my 1080p projector as my TCL R615.
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post #5 of 14 Old 07-17-2019, 06:51 AM
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I have noticed a better color result using 4K HDR > 1080P SDR using an HDFury Diva. Before the Diva, I was preferring the 1080p Blu-ray version over the UHD version on my Sony VPL-HW40ES projector.. Another reason for playing the 4k HDR disc is that sometimes only the 4K UHD disc has Dolby Atmos.
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post #6 of 14 Old 07-17-2019, 06:22 PM
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How can HDR>SDR conversion be better than the studio mastered SDR? Just from the color perspective, not bitrate, audio, etc.
Using madvr.
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post #7 of 14 Old 07-18-2019, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
How can HDR>SDR conversion be better than the studio mastered SDR? Just from the color perspective, not bitrate, audio, etc.
Using madvr.
HDR > SDR need to be very good, that's the first step, otherwise you will lose quality while converting, most quality improvement however comes from : NATIVE 4K Content > downscaled to FHD, this gives better results than native 1080p.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
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post #8 of 14 Old 07-18-2019, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
HDR > SDR need to be very good, that's the first step, otherwise you will lose quality while converting, most quality improvement however comes from : NATIVE 4K Content > downscaled to FHD, this gives better results than native 1080p.
Ok, but for example an 1080p SDR Blu ray has been mastered to SDR (in 1080p) by the studio, probably manually.

Madvr (or any similar software) would convert the gamut from REC.2020 to REC.709. From a 4K HDR UHD. Just from the COLORS perspective.
How is it possible that an automated software (i.e. madvr) can do a better job than professional studio technicians?

And if an automated solution exists, is that what the studios are using?

Last edited by noob00224; 07-18-2019 at 04:48 AM.
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post #9 of 14 Old 07-18-2019, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Ok, but for example an 1080p SDR Blu ray has been mastered to SDR (in 1080p) by the studio, probably manually.

Madvr (or any similar software) would convert the gamut from REC.2020 to REC.709. From a 4K HDR UHD. Just from the COLORS perspective.
How is it possible that an automated software (i.e. madvr) can do a better job than professional studio technicians?

And if an automated solution exists, is that what the studios are using?
I do think that 1080p SDR native would be better than 1080p HDR native converted to SDR.
However if HDR > SDR is well done, then 4K HDR > 1080p SDR is superior in quality than 1080p SDR native and most improvement comes from the downscaling here.


I'm not talking about Madvr here, not enough experience with it. Simply talking about our 4K HDR> 1080p SDR converter and people feedback (1080p PJ owners mainly)

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
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post #10 of 14 Old 07-18-2019, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
I do think that 1080p SDR native would be better than 1080p HDR native converted to SDR.
However if HDR > SDR is well done, then 4K HDR > 1080p SDR is superior in quality than 1080p SDR native and most improvement comes from the downscaling here.


I'm not talking about Madvr here, not enough experience with it. Simply talking about our 4K HDR> 1080p SDR converter and people feedback (1080p PJ owners mainly)
madvr is probably the best converter/tone mapper out there.
I'm aware of the benefits of downscaling 4K>1080p, but what I was talking about is just the color accuracy of the converted image.
madvr can do a great job at converting WCG to SDR, even match it, but that's the best it can do. I don't think it can be improved from the SDR version published by the studio.

Last edited by noob00224; 07-18-2019 at 06:40 AM.
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post #11 of 14 Old 07-18-2019, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
madvr is probably the best converter/tone mapper out there.
I'm aware of the benefits of downscaling 4K>1080p, but what I was talking about is just the color accuracy of the converted image.
madvr can do a great job at converting WCG to SDR, even match it, but that's the best it can do. I don't think it can be improved from the SDR version published by the studio.
"Probably", yes, and for 4K HDR > 4K SDR for sure.


Since you are aware of the benefit of 4K > 1080p and IF the conversion is well done then there is no reason it would not be superior than native 1080p SDR, that was the initial question here.
And you can read what people thinks of our conversion above and in Diva thread, our STM profiles were done under supervision from 2 major game studios.
Not final yet, but very close to being final since last update, just few slight improvements missing to offer enough STM profiles variations to cover each possible SDR displays out there.


Yet above 2 Diva owners comments were made BEFORE last 2 updates on STM profiles, so those guys should have way better results now and be even more happy
(assuming they updated to latest firmware and played with new STM profiles)

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.

Last edited by HDfury; 07-18-2019 at 07:49 AM.
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post #12 of 14 Old 07-18-2019, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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First, let me say that I completely trust HDfury and they have so much more experience than myself but I do agree that it's difficult to understand how HDR > SDR is better than studio mastered SDR.

The studio that produced the movie has the original (master) recording of the film. This is the highest quality version of the film that will ever exist.

The studio creates several different versions of the film using this master:

1) Master Recording -> Movie Theater release
2) Master Recording -> 4K UHD Bluray
3) Master Recording -> SDR Bluray

More importantly, I would assume that the studio knows exactly how they want to convert the Master Recording (full with HDR colors, etc) to SDR.

I don't see how converting an already compressed version (4K UHD Bluray, H.265) to SDR is better than the studio Master Recording being converted to SDR?

(Again, I don't mean any disrespect to HDfury! I'm probably not understanding something but this is how it would seem to make sense?)
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post #13 of 14 Old 07-18-2019, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
"Probably", yes, and for 4K HDR > 4K SDR for sure.


Since you are aware of the benefit of 4K > 1080p and IF the conversion is well done then there is no reason it would not be superior than native 1080p SDR, that was the initial question here.
And you can read what people thinks of our conversion above and in Diva thread, our STM profiles were done under supervision from 2 major game studios.
Not final yet, but very close to being final since last update, just few slight improvements missing to offer enough STM profiles variations to cover each possible SDR displays out there.


Yet above 2 Diva owners comments were made BEFORE last 2 updates on STM profiles, so those guys should have way better results now and be even more happy
(assuming they updated to latest firmware and played with new STM profiles)
Overall the UHD with the resolution, bitrate, audio, may be a better version, especially some of the 4K remasters recently.
Regarding resolution downscale 4K>1080p, it's probably something similar to Nvidia's DSR.
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post #14 of 14 Old 07-18-2019, 09:17 AM
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1080p native upscaled to 4K and downscaled to 1080p = same thing IF upscale/downscale is good enough. in most of the cases aka real life with current equipment available on the market, some quality will be lost by the processing, can your eyes tell the difference, may be for a few of us.
4K Native downscaled to 1080p = superior than native 1080p (we are talking about real native 4K here, nothing else), should make slight visual difference for most of us


So if HDR > SDR conversion results does look exactly the same than native SDR, then 4K HDR > 1080p SDR is slightly superior in quality than original 1080p SDR and most of us should be able to see the slight difference but prolly not all of us.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.

Last edited by HDfury; 07-18-2019 at 09:22 AM.
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