Headphone Surround Sound - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 14Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 112 Old 04-17-2019, 01:09 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Ah, thats cool, I didnt know you could run the audio through ooyh with plex.
bdht is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 112 Old 04-23-2019, 05:38 AM
Member
 
Drew Neilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Question Tips and recommendations for virtual positional audio via headset on Xbox One S & Win

I'm considering buying a new headset. I own a Windows 10 PC and an Xbox One S, and when I'm using my headset (a Sony MDR-AS800AP with Comply tips) with either of them, I use Dolby Atmos for Headphones (Windows Sonic for Headphones is also an option). I wonder if anyone here has any information about what headset to buy to get the most accurate virtual positional audio, or if there's something that I can add to this headset that will work with both PC and Xbox One and that will improve the localization of the sounds, because with both Windows Sonic for Headphones and Dolby Atmos for Headphones, together with my Sony MDR-AS800AP headphones, sound that should sound like it is in front of me does not sound like it is in front of me. It sounds like it is off to my right side and left side. Sound that is supposed to come from behind me DOES sound like it is coming from behind me. I've read that everyone has their own HRTF (Head-Related Transfer Function), so maybe my HRTF is to blame, but in case it is my headset that is the problem, I want to know anything that I need to know to choose a headset that will give me the best virtual spatial audio experience with my Xbox and my PC, and if there's anything that I can add to my PC and to my Xbox, then I'd like to know about that as well. I'm trying to read through the content of this message thread but I kind of need a summarized, 'for dummies' version of this thread.

My Sony MDR-AS800APs were built to be used while exercising (they're sweatproof and waterproof) and I use them when I go to the gym and when I run outside. Note that the Comply tips that I use them with when I'm exercising--the Sport Pro tips with waxguard--are probably not waterproof, but they are designed to accommodate sweat. When I use the cardiovascular workout machines--such as one of the elliptical machines--I prop my Surface Pro up on the machine's control panel, plug my headphones into it, and stream a TV show or YouTube video, so virtualized spatial audio is important when I use my headset with my Surface, wherever I am (at home or at the gym). When I'm at home and want to watch something on my TV without disturbing anyone, I plug my headset into my Xbox One S controller's headset jack and I replace the Sport Pro tips with Comfort Pro tips.

Since my MDR-AS800AP headset tends to make my ears itch when I wear them for hours, and since its in-line microphone doesn't pick up my voice as well as it should for online gaming (other people whom I'm playing with can probably barely hear me speak), I might get a separate headset for use when I'm not at the gym and am not exercising; one that can be worn for hours with minimal discomfort and has a microphone that picks up my voice good enough for online gaming. I'd potentially use this headset while gaming on my Xbox as well as while gaming on my PC.

Last edited by Drew Neilson; 04-23-2019 at 09:15 AM. Reason: I added content to my post.
Drew Neilson is offline  
post #93 of 112 Old 04-23-2019, 01:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 499
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 76
@Drew Neilson
Electrostatic and planar type headphones are apparently the best for this, it has been discussed, you can read the thread from the beginning to get more info. Don't know about Xbox/Surface. Youtube only has 2.0 audio, no multi channel.



Did some testing with Dolby Headphone, Waves NX, OOYH. Xonar DGX, Sennheiser HD380 Pro.
Downloaded every multi channel audio test file I could find, and used some movies with HQ audio.

In DH there are 3 types of rooms, DH 1, DH 2, DH 3 for 5.1. No modifications can be done here.
In 7.1 each speaker can be moved in a 2D plane. This mode is added to the original room type (DH). If there is a 5.1 source, it can be used in 7.1, I could not hear any difference, so the algorithm probably does not do anything with the 2 missing channels.

Waves NX:
You cannot turn it off (no processing). When you do via the off button, there is a loud buzzing sound. So every application that you don't want DSP'd needs to have the sound card selected as preferred output. Can be done in Windows10, not sure about the others. Also in the player if a 2.0 audio file is played it has to be switched as well, if a 5.1/7.1 was played previously and NX was used.

Not sure if this is why, but Waves NX often stopped working.
Switching to 96khz in Windows and Xonar UI broke NX, sound was faster and/or static was added.

Waves NX vs Dolby Headphone:
Positioning wise they are about the same.
Waves NX had better sound reproduction, was more forward, livelier. DH made the music coarse almost.
No EQ required for Waves.

OOYH.
Installed at the same time as NX, so more problems arose. Had to disable NX in order for it to work, wanted to make side by side comparisons.

Without EQ there was some sibilance in the 2.5k and 4k areas, also bass was a little high.
As per the instructions above, EQ was used, but I tweaked the values a bit (pictures attached).

Positioning and room feel was the best out of all 3.
I liked Volti Vittoria the most.

In multi channel music it was fine, as well as other test files.
The most natural ones I found are Volti Vittoria, Revel Ultima, Marlen Momento V2.

Problem is in movie testing all of the presets sounded either hollow, to way back. Waves NX was superior to all of these from the point of view of a movie/tv with multi channel experience, not necessarily room feel reproduction. I have been using headphones with no speakers for a long time now and haven't gone to the cinema for years, so maybe I've gotten used to this type of sound.
Or am I doing something wrong?

Can the Waves Nx be disabled on the Mobius, so no 3D processing?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	5 (1).JPG
Views:	17
Size:	232.2 KB
ID:	2557332   Click image for larger version

Name:	8.JPG
Views:	14
Size:	238.0 KB
ID:	2557334  

Last edited by noob00224; 04-23-2019 at 03:32 PM.
noob00224 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #94 of 112 Old 04-23-2019, 04:27 PM
Member
 
Drew Neilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 5
@noob00224 The virtualization solutions that you mentioned will only work for me if they are available on both Windows and Xbox One. Windows Sonic and Dolby Atmos support are built-in to Windows 10 and Xbox One, both for home theaters and for headsets. Windows Sonic (and it's headset counterpart, Windows Sonic for Headphones) are useable immediately, and Dolby Atmos (and its headset counterpart, Dolby Atmos for Headphones) is available by downloading "Dolby Access" from the Microsoft Store--it runs on Windows 10 and on Xbox One--and if you want Dolby Atmos for Headphones, you have to pay $15 for an in-app purchase. Support for DTS:X is coming to Windows 10 and Xbox One (probably along with DTS Headphone:X) and the Microsoft Store has at least one DTS app in it that is listed as not-yet-available (meaning, it's coming soon).
Regarding other headset virtualization technologies, if they're not built-in to Windows 10 and Xbox One (and I just said what is built-in) and aren't downloadable from the Microsoft Store, the only way I'll be able to use them is if they're part of a piece of hardware. I'd connect the hardware to my Xbox's HDMI or optical out ports, or to my Surface Pro's HDMI port, set the Xbox or Windows to output an audio format as if it was connected to a physical home theater (examples: Dolby Atmos for home theater or multi-channel PCM), and the box would take that incoming Dolby Atmos signal (or whatever other format) and translate it into binaural sound. This solution is not as desirable as a software-based one because there would be a piece of hardware that I'd need to carry around with me.
Lastly, if this hardware were built into the headset, then that also would be less desirable than a fully software-based one, because that would mean that I'd only get the virtualization when I'm using that headset, and no other headset.

Last edited by Drew Neilson; 04-23-2019 at 04:36 PM.
Drew Neilson is offline  
post #95 of 112 Old 04-23-2019, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Neilson View Post
I wonder if anyone here has any information about what headset to buy to get the most accurate virtual positional audio. I've read that everyone has their own HRTF (Head-Related Transfer Function), so maybe my HRTF is to blame, but in case it is my headset that is the problem.
As far as the actual headphones go, what's going to work best with these real time binaural renderers is over ear open back headphones, with very responsive drivers(planar dynamics, electrostats, or very good dynamics like ring or pure beryllium diaphragms), and large deep velour angled pads. Its going to scale down from there to in ear closed back being the worst, at least as far as externalization goes. Also the frequency response of the headphones should be fairly flat when using hrtf virtualization, where alot of headphones have boosted bass and treble(v shaped), or just boosted treble(reference). If using a pc or tablet you can equalize the response, but not with a console.

On the program side, your experience with the actual HRTF varies in two ways, coloration(various peaks valleys in the frequency response) and positioning, how accurately the virtual speakers are located. Say with 7.1, the latter is still going to be in a standard 7.1 layout but actual speaker positions can vary by a few degrees, which is no problem, or you may have to make up to a 5db channel adjustment, this however is more prevelant in measured room impulse responses like when using Out of Your Head.

Modeled hrtfs such as Waves NX or Creatives SXFI have adjustable parameters that help customize your hrtf to the program, or the program to your hrtf. Two options with these now are the Audeze Mobius and the Creative SXFI amp, the SXFI you can use with any headphones, such as Massdrop Hifiman HE-4XX, open back planar headphones that you can add Dekoni LCD Velour pads to. Both of these have full 7.1 surround sound when used with a PC, and virtual stereo when used with a tablet or console. So for instance you could use the mobius for console gaming when you need a mic, the sxfi with in ears for exercising, etc.

So...
First, you can try over ears instead of in ears, for a more externalized effect. When using windows devices, you can essentially use whatever software you want, Out of Your Head, Waves NX, SBX, etc. When using a pc for music movies and games you can use any software, any headphones, and other audio equipment. With the xbox you're more limited in terms of software as well as needing a microphone. I dont have experience with microphones and the xbox so I cant advise you there.

The Audeze Mobius that's a bit more expensive, but has great virtualization due to Waves NX with builtin accelerometer/gyrometer based head tracking to fix the virtual speaker locations in space as your head moves, as well as having planar magnetic drivers. It can do 7.1 from a pc and stereo from phone/tablets and consoles and LDAC bluetooth 5.0. You can further improve externalization and imaging by changing the pads to larger deeper angled pleather pads. And its a headset with a microphone.

If the Mobius is out of your price range than Id suggest trying various over ear gaming headsets compared to using in ears. Something like the logitech g533 if you dont need isolation. Using the dolby atmos for headphones on the xbox is as good as any other solution such as sbx, dts headphone x, dolby headphone etc., if you cant use waves or ooyh.

For exercising with in ears since you're using a windows tablet, give Out of Your Head and Waves NX a try instead of atmos for headphones.
https://www.waves.com/nx/mac-windows-app
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/
bdht is online now  
post #96 of 112 Old 04-23-2019, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Problem is in movie testing all of the presets sounded either hollow, to way back. Waves NX was superior to all of these from the point of view of a movie/tv with multi channel experience, not necessarily room feel reproduction. I have been using headphones with no speakers for a long time now and haven't gone to the cinema for years, so maybe I've gotten used to this type of sound.
Or am I doing something wrong?
This is a result of the headphones, amp, and dac. Its such a complex signal due to the measured reflections it needs very clean, powerful, and fast circuitry and very responsive transducers with very low distortion, no ringing/resonances, to render with fidelity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Can the Waves Nx be disabled on the Mobius, so no 3D processing?
Yes
noob00224 likes this.
bdht is online now  
post #97 of 112 Old 04-23-2019, 06:27 PM
Member
 
Drew Neilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
As far as the actual headphones go, what's going to work best with these real time binaural renderers is over ear open back headphones
I've read that with open-back headphones, other people around you can hear what you're listening to. This is okay when I'm at home, but is unacceptable when I'm at the gym, or if I decide to go to the library. I guess a solution would be to have a headset for fitness use that is waterproof, sweat-proof, and probably in-ear because on-ears and over-ears will start to feel hot and sweaty as I exercise... and a separate pair that is over- or on-ear, either closed-back or open-back depending on how much more spatious open-backs sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
with very responsive drivers(planar dynamics, electrostats, or very good dynamics like ring or pure beryllium diaphragms)
When you say "very responsive drivers", do you mean highly-sensitive drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
and large deep velour angled pads.
What does this mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Its going to scale down from there to in ear closed back being the worst, at least as far as externalization goes. Also the frequency response of the headphones should be fairly flat when using hrtf virtualization, where alot of headphones have boosted bass and treble(v shaped), or just boosted treble(reference). If using a pc or tablet you can equalize the response, but not with a console.
If I can't equalize using my console, then that makes it more important for me to get headphones that are flat or are close to it without equalization. Unless they can be equalized using software on a PC or phone as part of their initial setup and have that equalization remain when those headphones are used with other audio source devices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
On the program side, your experience with the actual HRTF varies in two ways, coloration(various peaks valleys in the frequency response) and positioning, how accurately the virtual speakers are located. Say with 7.1, the latter is still going to be in a standard 7.1 layout but actual speaker positions can vary by a few degrees, which is no problem, or you may have to make up to a 5db channel adjustment, this however is more prevelant in measured room impulse responses like when using Out of Your Head.
I'd rather have an object-based format than a channel-based format. Why be limited to a set number of channels when I could have sounds be anywhere around me in 3D space?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Modeled hrtfs such as Waves NX or Creatives SXFI have adjustable parameters that help customize your hrtf to the program, or the program to your hrtf. Two options with these now are the Audeze Mobius and the Creative SXFI amp, the SXFI you can use with any headphones, such as Massdrop Hifiman HE-4XX, open back planar headphones that you can add Dekoni LCD Velour pads to. Both of these have full 7.1 surround sound when used with a PC, and virtual stereo when used with a tablet or console. So for instance you could use the mobius for console gaming when you need a mic, the sxfi with in ears for exercising, etc.
If these things are hardware, I don't see why I'd only be able to get virtual 7.1 when I use them with a PC, and not when I use them with a console. Shouldn't hardware work with anything? If they were software, and not available on Xbox One, I'd understand that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
So...
First, you can try over ears instead of in ears, for a more externalized effect. When using windows devices, you can essentially use whatever software you want, Out of Your Head, Waves NX, SBX, etc. When using a pc for music movies and games you can use any software, any headphones, and other audio equipment. With the xbox you're more limited in terms of software as well as needing a microphone. I dont have experience with microphones and the xbox so I cant advise you there.
If I end up with two headsets--an in-ear headset for exercise, and an over- or on-ear headset for everything else--I'd want both of them to have microphones, but the in-ear pair would not have to have one that sticks out in front of my mouth; it could be inline, because I'm not going to be gaming while I exercise. (There's rules in my gym about not talking too much on your phone, and talking to other people who I'm playing a game with would probably break those rules. Besides, some games are probably hard to play while exercising without hurting yourself). As for the over- or on-ear headset, I want it to have a mic that is good enough for gaming, both on my Surface Pro and on my Xbox One.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
The Audeze Mobius that's a bit more expensive, but has great virtualization due to Waves NX with builtin accelerometer/gyrometer based head tracking to fix the virtual speaker locations in space as your head moves, as well as having planar magnetic drivers. It can do 7.1 from a pc and stereo from phone/tablets and consoles and LDAC bluetooth 5.0. You can further improve externalization and imaging by changing the pads to larger deeper angled pleather pads. And its a headset with a microphone.
The head-tracking feature sounds awesome, but the Audeze won't provide surround sound on Xbox, and no object-based audio on anything (no Dolby Atmos for Headphones, DTS Headphone:X, nor Windows Sonic for Headphones).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
If the Mobius is out of your price range than Id suggest trying various over ear gaming headsets compared to using in ears. Something like the logitech g533 if you dont need isolation. Using the dolby atmos for headphones on the xbox is as good as any other solution such as sbx, dts headphone x, dolby headphone etc., if you cant use waves or ooyh.
The G533 doesn't support the Xbox One.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
For exercising with in ears since you're using a windows tablet, give Out of Your Head and Waves NX a try instead of atmos for headphones.
https://www.waves.com/nx/mac-windows-app
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
This is a result of the headphones, amp, and dac. Its such a complex signal due to the measured reflections it needs very clean, powerful, and fast circuitry and very responsive transducers with very low distortion, no ringing/resonances, to render with fidelity.
My Xbox is a part of my home theater, and my AV receiver has a 1/8" headphone jack, but I guess that that won't work for gaming because there's no microphone return path through the AVR to the Xbox.
Drew Neilson is offline  
post #98 of 112 Old 04-23-2019, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
No, very responsive as in the drivers are able to render more data. Youre run of the mill dynamic drivers that you find in everything are essentially slower and less responsive than planar magnetics. With these hrtf binaural renderers youre pushing alot more information through the transducers.

The pads, such as the Dekoni LCD Velour are some of the best pads for enhancing the virtualization, theyre deep angled open and have high pinna activation resulting in a more externalized virtual speaker location with

Currently the only content that is actually object based are games that specifically say they use atmos when using atmos for headphones, and the netflix app on windows with atmos content. And personally I prefer the externalization and fidelity of OOYH and Waves to even what atmos for headphones does even with native atmos content.

No surround sound with xbox thats just how they were designed and the lavk of multichannel usb on consoles. Optical is limited to lossy 5.1 and would require additional decoders on the devices.

The g533 is just an example of a headset with good pinna activation.
bdht is online now  
post #99 of 112 Old 04-24-2019, 04:18 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 499
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
This is a result of the headphones, amp, and dac. Its such a complex signal due to the measured reflections it needs very clean, powerful, and fast circuitry and very responsive transducers with very low distortion, no ringing/resonances, to render with fidelity.


Yes
What about the gyro, can you have 3D without the head movements?

Can you use the Mobius while it's charging, or keep it plugged in the USB all the time?

Considering it has an amplifier included, would this do better in OOYH, just by itself?
If not, what would be the minimum setup for OOYH?

I was researching headphones and was going to get an Audioengine D1 after I make some purchases.
noob00224 is online now  
post #100 of 112 Old 04-24-2019, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Let me start by apolgizing for how long this got lol...

So, just clarifying your last comment a bit with OOYH sounding hollow and/or to way back(i.e. distant and non distinct?) as well as using headphones the majority of the time.

Listening over headphones is for the most part incredibly clean and natural due to the lack of room reflections, so when directly comparing normal headphone listening to OOYH, the room reflections, especially when not well rendered, sound strange. Initially you could do most of your comparisons with the Genelec preset as thats a treated recording studio, and Waves NX with the room ambience(what did you have this set to?) lower you get somewhat externalized sound but very clear and non reverby.

Even after upgrading headphones, dac/amp, and adding conditioning, OOYH is still going to sound way more like loudspeakers than headphones and some of the presets sound like giant speakers in a giant room and everything needs to be perfect to be able to turn the volume up loud enough or it sounds like a mess(this is where the eq comes into play as well, allowing you to turn the volume up to your normal listening levels, as well volume matching is very important for comparisons), but as everythings upgraded the hollow and nondistinct sound slips away and becomes very full and natural sounding, due to the equipment rendering all of the reflections with perfect timing.

I use the Genelecs most of the time because the music I listen to is a distorted mess and doesnt play nice with alot of the other presets, but anything that ive tried with other music, pink floyd, classical, etc. i can go through all the presets and enjoy the uniqueness of each speaker system, its eerily lifelike. Ill also use the magico q3s to warm up certain content, the ribbons to brighten up some, the Cello for older 80s movies that were mixed for more reverberant auditoriums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
What about the gyro, can you have 3D without the head movements?
Not at the momemnt but it may be included in the next firmware, I have an old beta version that has 3d off so Im not sure what the issue is. But I never use it, the head tracking increases externalization its pretty cool xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Can you use the Mobius while it's charging, or keep it plugged in the USB all the time?
yes it will charge over usb while in use, but there were alot of reports of it draining the battery when plugged into usb overnight. I only use mine over bluetooth so i don't have experience with that. The headfi thread might be more informative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Considering it has an amplifier included, would this do better in OOYH, just by itself?
If not, what would be the minimum setup for OOYH?
No I wouldnt get the Mobius to use with OOYH

Its tough to say a minimum for ooyh as it scales right up with several thousand dollar hifi rigs.

First thing would be planar drivers, a massdrop hifiman he4xx or he400i, a used audeze el8. Switch them to the dekoni lcd velour pads for smoother treble and a bigger soundstage. And isolating an inexpensive dac/amp with an optical connection and powering it with a cheap jameco regulated linear power supply. Thats just $30 for the dac and psu and will yield good results until you spend over $300.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073PYN7L5..._0dlWCb74ZARCD

https://www.jameco.com/z/DDU050100M2...o_1953612.html

for that specific model youd need a dc male to microusb adapter as well.

or with a bit more power https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A2QLPJM..._QiuXCb6V6YF34

For the dac/amp you want ultra clean, ultra regulated, high power output, lots of reserve power, class a, discrete, dc coupled amplifiers, and upgraded low jitter low phase noise clocks(TCXO) and the Audio gd equipment being in current signal with less stages(shorter signal path), non feedback with its 0 delay, balanced equipment with 0 crosstalk(with all the other benefits of balanced circuits). Using OOYH makes all the differences between these components much more obvious than when not using it due to the massive amount of extra detail and critical timing required by the program.

Compare the audioengine d1 to what my personal minimum would be, the audio-gd nfb11. The D1 is a small bus powered dac/amp, that means all the leakage currents from the pcs switch mode power supply, the poor output impedance of that power, and any other noise generated by the pc, with the nfb11 over usb the signal is still just as contaminated by the pc but at least its self powered, and very well self powered with discrete double stage power supply units, clean, fast power.

So you could use optical but thats bandwidth limited and you lose alot of the extra detail that OOYH provides with its measured reflections. So I use an uptone iso regen to isolate and regenate the usb signal, this is much more detailed than optical. Its also significantly cleaner and less fatiguing than not using it and having the pc connected to the nfb11s usb. But the stock smps with the iso regen was also somewhat fatiguing and made me want to roll off treble a few dbs, switching to the cheap $10 linear power supply from jameco helped, but adding an uptone ultracap lps was another increase in detail, the size and clarity of the image, its suprising really that just the power supply for the iso regen could be so noticeable. Further still adding a star quad(quadrapole) dc power cable between the iso regen and ultracap lps removed another layer of noise generated by a voltage developed across the inductance of the cable due to the varied current draw of digital signals that cant be dealt by with components regulators. That ones always a real suprise when you add it, a little $5 self made cable or $30 ordered from china and its such a boost in clarity.

So the above comparisons with optical and usb were done with the nfb11 and already using a Topaz 91092-12(bought used for under 40-80) for ac line conditioning. In my first system with the nfb7 and 1amp, after adding the iso regen with ultracap and star quad cable, I was watching a 7.1 movie ran through OOYH and a scene with a waterfall was intensely detailed but was still very fatiguing.  Adding the topaz cleaned up the ac power making the waterfall sound very natural and the presentation became completely non fatiguing. These units supress line noise by way of an ultra low interwinding capacitance isolation transformer with multiple internal shields, and a floated neutral secondary.  About 140db common mode noise and 60db traverse mode.  as well as providing some surge suppression.  And this allows for conditioning with unfiltered distribution after the transformer so any connected electrical devices have very low impedance between them minimizing any noise generated by leakage currents.

So you see why its tough to make a recommendation, each component is more capable, or removes another layer of noise, and further improves the performance of OOYH, but it gets expensive and it gets complicated. All I can do is share my experiences and upgrade path.

But my minimum recommendations are:

-Start with the cheap optical dac and linear power supply and a pair of planar magnetic headphones.

-Upgrade to the Audio-GD NFB-11 with TCXO via optical

switch to usb with conditioning:
-Uptone ISO Regen, powered by a Jameco 9v Regulated LPS or Uptone Ultracap LPS(the first version you can get used for about (250) with a star quad dc cable(make it yourself for $5 or order one for $30)

and power conditioning:
-Topaz 91092-12
As well as a star quad powe cable for the nfb11 or other dac, make one yourself, order one ffrom atlhifi or the best would be vh audios flavor 4, but this is the same situation as the dc power cable, digital devices work very well with these types of cables and i didnt notice any differences when trying various other cables like you do with power amplifiers, i.e. 10/3 cryo vs $5 14/3

The NFB11, compared to the d1 and other cheaper options, in addition to the power supplies, keeps the signal in the current domain after the ess9028 dac chip, and uses no feedback class a discrete dc coupled amplifiers, no opamps, an extremely short uncolored signal path, perfectly regulated, excellent for using with OOYH. You may see that these units dont do well with certain measurements and thats due to the non feedback amplifiers dont do well under torture tests but other measurements will show them perform excellent under normal listening conditions. Look at it like supersampling a uhd hdr video stream, youll get about 1fps but you'd never watch it under those conditions and you cant tell a difference between the native video.

Going up from there, the nfb7 and nfb1amp takes that ultra clean image from all the conditioning and makes it gigantic. The fully balanced drive, additional stages of regulation and massive power supplies really renders every single detail from the measured room impulse responses and binaural rendering perfectly. Its absolutely stunning at this point. The size of the virtual room, the accuracy of sound effects placed in the room, the fidelity and clarity of the image, anyone I have listen to this system(or watch a movie with) takes off the headphones, looks around the room puzzled, looks at me like im an *******, puts the headphones back on and their jaw drops. Colorful adjectives aside, this does happen with the nfb11 setup as well but ya know... dramatic effect.

I listened to alot of components under 1000 and audio gd performed well above the rest. And like with everything it depends how much you want to spend and things scale up the more you spend.

The last thing is the bass shaker system. This really helps with the externalization because when youre listening to something thats supposed to feel like youre in a room with speakers and you have all this 20hz sub bass only on your ears. Well placed on the frame of a chair and the shakers blend seemlessly with the headphones and its a very close approximation of an actual subwoofer system, while of course you dont feel the actual room being pressurized the special effects and sub bass are accurate, tactile, and immersive.
noob00224 likes this.

Last edited by bdht; 04-27-2019 at 11:26 PM.
bdht is online now  
post #101 of 112 Old 04-24-2019, 04:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 499
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 76
@bdht

For movies only:
The Genelec preset (with the tweaked EQ) sounds like a medium size theater with poor speakers and some reflections.
With the original EQ the sound is very hollowed out.

I found Volti Vittoria and Italian to have the most fullness to the sound, but still too hollow.
The NX on Multimedia/Theater sound much fuller, not missing frequencies.

Without being able to listen to them and get an ideea I'm not sure if I actually want a room feel rather then a good implementation of multichannel sound.

Last edited by noob00224; 04-24-2019 at 04:39 PM.
noob00224 is online now  
post #102 of 112 Old 04-24-2019, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
@bdht

For movies only:
The Genelec preset (with the tweaked EQ) sounds like a medium size theater with poor speakers and some reflections.
With the original EQ the sound is very hollowed out.

I found Volti Vittoria and Italian to have the most fullness to the sound, but still too hollow.
The NX on Multimedia/Theater sound much fuller, not missing frequencies.

Without being able to listen to them and get an ideea I'm not sure if I actually want a room feel rather then a good implementation of multichannel sound.
Thats similar to what I experienced when i first started using OOYH with a xonar u3 and jvc rx700s. Comparing vs dolby headphone, atmos for headphones, windows sonic, waves nx, etc, OOYH was an incredible effect, but didnt quite have the naturalness and fidelity I was looking for. Switching to my denon x4200w was an immediate improvement over the u3, and after experiencing the effects of planar magnetics when using the audeze el8s, I was reassured that trying some better equipment was worthwhile, as even the Genelecs sounded much fuller and more natural sounding with the planars and avr compared to the dynamics and budget usb dac amp. Now I'm at the point where I greatly prefer using OOYH for music to standard stereo headphone listening, the size of the image and the separation and dimensionality it brings is marvelous, very much like a dedicated 2 channel loudspeaker listening room.
bdht is online now  
post #103 of 112 Old 04-24-2019, 05:57 PM
Member
 
Drew Neilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 5
I have a Kinect connected to my Xbox One, and I think that if the Kinect had not been discontinued, Microsoft could've probably used it to track the position of my head to enhance Dolby Atmos for Headphones and Windows Sonic for Headphones on Xbox.
I wonder if on Windows 10 PCs that have Windows Hello-compatible cameras--the cameras that can log you in to Windows--Microsoft could track the position of your head to enhance Dolby Atmos for Headphones and Windows Sonic for Headphones on Windows 10 PCs. My Surface Pro has a Windows Hello camera.
I kinda feel like I already own the technology for head tracking, if only Microsoft would utilize it with software. I know that Kinect died, and I'm not positive that it could be done with Windows Hello cameras, but still...
Drew Neilson is offline  
post #104 of 112 Old 04-24-2019, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Neilson View Post
I kinda feel like I already own the technology for head tracking, if only Microsoft would utilize it with software.
Yup that would be cool, Waves NX has two options for head tracking with their software, free via webcam and a $100 bluetooth dongle. That plus a first reflection algorithm based on finite impulse response like Waves would really improve the externalization of Atmos for Headphones.
bdht is online now  
post #105 of 112 Old 04-25-2019, 06:13 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 499
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 76
@bdht

What about the Audio Enhancements option?
I read it should be disabled for Nx.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture.JPG
Views:	14
Size:	38.7 KB
ID:	2558000  
noob00224 is online now  
post #106 of 112 Old 04-25-2019, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
@bdht

What about the Audio Enhancements option?
I read it should be disabled for Nx.
Sorry, I don't know. I haven't read anything about that setting, but it's doing extra signal processing so I'm not sure why you would turn it off if its on by default after waves installation. Can you link to where you saw it should be turned off?
bdht is online now  
post #107 of 112 Old 04-25-2019, 10:25 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 499
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Sorry, I don't know. I haven't read anything about that setting, but it's doing extra signal processing so I'm not sure why you would turn it off if its on by default after waves installation. Can you link to where you saw it should be turned off?

Under
TROUBLESHOOTING
Nx for Mac & Windows

https://www.waves.com/nx/support

Not the same setting, but same type?
noob00224 is online now  
post #108 of 112 Old 04-25-2019, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bdht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 79
You can try turning it off, I don't think it should make a difference. Nothing else should be doing anything on the waves audio device. That setting allows the equalizer to work on the audio output device.
bdht is online now  
post #109 of 112 Old 07-18-2019, 12:01 AM
Member
 
Drew Neilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Regarding my previous posts in this thread: "you cannot use USB devices with the Xbox One unless they are branded as "Made for Xbox One" because sadly Microsoft requires a special communications chip to allow USB devices (headsets, mic, etc) to function on the Xbox One. This is different than on PC and PS4." Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/com..._for_xbox_one/

I probably need a better source to confirm this than that Reddit thread, but right now, at least I know that I can buy a MixAmp, because there are MixAmps that are designed to work with Xbox One.
Drew Neilson is offline  
post #110 of 112 Old 08-15-2019, 07:41 AM
Rgb
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 8,111
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked: 701
I've been toying with a "Silent theater" setup since the first Dolby Headphone receivers were commonly available in the early 2000's, coupled with Aura bass shakers for "Silent subs"

With low cost, good quality AptX-LL (Low latency) BT transmitters now available that support reliable conneciton to 2 BT headphones at once, it is easy to setup a quiet, wireless HT if needed for neighbors, spouses, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Could use more than one BT transmitter to add 2 more BT headphones as needed, and/or a BT receiver with a multiple output HP amp where viewers sit, then run wired HP's to each viewer.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Last edited by Rgb; 08-15-2019 at 07:53 AM.
Rgb is online now  
post #111 of 112 Old 08-15-2019, 07:46 AM
Rgb
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 8,111
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked: 701
Lots of high quality pre-HDMI receivers at thrift/auction with either Dolby HP decoding and/or their own HRTF flavor on board (Harman Kardon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sherwood, etc)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-r...nsfer_function
Rgb is online now  
post #112 of 112 Old 08-15-2019, 08:24 AM
Rgb
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 8,111
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked: 701
Moving forward, hopefully most top tier receivers/pre-pro's will include BT TRANSMITTERS (with AptX-LL) for at least 2 BT headphones if not 4 at once.

BT Receivers (ie phone>receiver) have been common in receivers for years now.

Last edited by Rgb; 08-15-2019 at 08:27 AM.
Rgb is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Headphones

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off