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post #5521 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by wxchaser View Post

Also reprogrammed my Harmony 950 for the Apple TV 4K this morning & working fine.
Was there a ATV 4K profile or did you just input ATV when creating your activity?
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post #5522 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tylerk86 View Post
That was exactly my intention @wxman ! Glad to hear someone else is on the same track, and I honestly think Apple may allow native output in an update. My real question, though, is that 24Hz is able to be displayed at proper cadence on the 2016’s yes? I don’t know if you ever saw @3DBuff ’s testing on the motion forum...


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Is there a way to do direct audio? I can't enjoy a movie for just the visuals, I need to get the audio as well. Maybe it does compressed audio only?

Greg
There is not way to bitstream, meaning the Apple TV just passes the audio through and does not touch it. The 2 options are Dolby Digital or Best Available. With Dolby Digital Apple TV decodes the source so it can do what it needs to with it for Siri, then repacks it back to Dolby Digital and sends it to your AVR. Your AVR then decodes it. With Best Available the Apple TV decodes the source so it can do what it needs to with it for Sire, but then does not repack it and sends it onwards as uncompressed PCM Multi Channel.

Whether your AVR or the Apple TV decodes the audio is irrelevant. It will be equal. PCM is lossless and uncompressed so sending PCM to an AVR is as good as it gets. The Best Available settings really is the best available. It just doesn't make your AVR light up with a brand name like Dolby Digital.

The real issue is the Apple doesn't support DTS, DTS-HD, TrueHD, Dolby Atmos. It needs to hook into the audio and since it will not decode these formats they won't play back and they cannot pass it through.

In the end, there's no streaming services putting these out to the Apple TV so this only applies to local content. Different apps that offer local playback on Apple TV handle it differently. For example Plex transcodes audio into Dolby Digital (+) which is just like a stream from Netflix for example. Infuse decodes the other audio formats and then outputs them as PCM. Again, the only difference is that the decoding is done on the ATV not the AVR so you don't get the brand name to light up. Otherwise the audio quality is completely equal. MrMC is doing something with unpacking and repacking and doing some tricks I don't fully understand but they can get the DTS brand name to light up on an AVR. Of these ways of doing it I prefer what Infuse is doing. It is the same quality as if your AVR is doing it, just not with the brand name in lights.
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post #5523 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 06:45 AM
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My display has only hdr10 but some movies have the DV logo on the ATV5. I *think* they are playing back in Hdr10. They sure look like it.
I’m seeing the same thing on my Sony 940D that only does HDR10. Peanuts movie, which is supposedly hdr10, looks flat and like the main tile screen. Wonder Woman, which is supposedly DV, looks like it’s playing in hdr even though my tv can’t do it.

Perhaps some movies have both? How did they get this so wrong?
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post #5524 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 06:48 AM
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I’m seeing the same thing on my Sony 940D that only does HDR10. Peanuts movie, which is supposedly hdr10, looks flat and like the main tile screen. Wonder Woman, which is supposedly DV, looks like it’s playing in hdr even though my tv can’t do it.

Perhaps some movies have both? How did they get this so wrong?
All DV titles can do HDR10. There will never be a Dolby Vision title that cannot do HDR10. HDR10 always must be present.
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post #5525 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 06:51 AM
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All DV titles can do HDR10. There will never be a Dolby Vision title that cannot do HDR10. HDR10 always must be present.
I know that’s the case on UHD Blu-ray, but it’s also true for streaming media like iTunes and vudu?
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post #5526 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 07:14 AM
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There is some speculation that Apple wants system sounds, not just from navigating the UI but also to blend in Siri.

So they'd have to decode something complex, blend in Siri, reencode in real time something like TrueHD or DTS HD MA streams.

The A10x processor may be able to do it but would there be lag?
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post #5527 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
There is some speculation that Apple wants system sounds, not just from navigating the UI but also to blend in Siri.



So they'd have to decode something complex, blend in Siri, reencode in real time something like TrueHD or DTS HD MA streams.



The A10x processor may be able to do it but would there be lag?


I would imagine the A10 could no problem


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post #5528 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 07:22 AM
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Was there a ATV 4K profile or did you just input ATV when creating your activity?
Thanks, Gerry
No - not yet. Just select Apple & 4th Generation, or enter Apple & A1625 for the model # to get it. The new ATV5 isn't in their database yet.
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post #5529 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by wxchaser View Post
No - not yet. Just select Apple & 4th Generation, or enter Apple & A1625 for the model # to get it. The new ATV5 isn't in their database yet.
Thanks! Gerry

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post #5530 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Drew_N View Post
I know that’s the case on UHD Blu-ray, but it’s also true for streaming media like iTunes and vudu?
great point! I'm not sure then

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Apple TV owners' thread.

Watching Ravens & Jaguars game on the Yahoo app great picture quality I also switched from 4h hdr to 4k sdr and I’m not experiencing the over saturated colors some are reporting.

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post #5532 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 08:42 AM
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From The Horse's Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
All DV titles can do HDR10. There will never be a Dolby Vision title that cannot do HDR10. HDR10 always must be present.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew_N View Post
I know that’s the case on UHD Blu-ray, but it’s also true for streaming media like iTunes and vudu?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
great point! I'm not sure then
I would interpret the statement specific to the Dolby Vision tag that "The movie will play in the HDR standard that your screen is capable of displaying," to mean that DV tagged titles will play in HDR on non-DV sets.


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post #5533 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wxchaser View Post
No - not yet. Just select Apple & 4th Generation, or enter Apple & A1625 for the model # to get it. The new ATV5 isn't in their database yet.
I emailed Logitech to get the Apple TV 4K on their database. I gave them the model A1842.
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post #5534 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
There is some speculation that Apple wants system sounds, not just from navigating the UI but also to blend in Siri. So they'd have to decode something complex, blend in Siri, reencode in real time something like TrueHD or DTS HD MA streams. The A10x processor may be able to do it but would there be lag?
The A10x is as powerful a MacBook Pro in single-core tasks. My understanding is that both Apple TV 4th Gen and 4K are more than capable of processing HD audio codecs, so it is a question of balancing simplicity with a toggle to allow iTunes movie streams to bitstream audio followed by resolving the implications for Siri.

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post #5535 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by xdude420x View Post
Nothing happens. You get no HDR. It will still be UHD.
not true, see below \/
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
All DV titles can do HDR10. There will never be a Dolby Vision title that cannot do HDR10. HDR10 always must be present.
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post #5536 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 08:59 AM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

What refresh rate is everyone choosing for Hulu (Live Beta)? I wasn’t sure if any kind of processing gets done in-app or if I should just be using the native rate of 24p or 30p depending on content.


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post #5537 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 09:13 AM
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The A10x is as powerful a MacBook Pro in single-core tasks. My understanding is that both Apple TV 4th Gen and 4K are more than capable of processing HD audio codecs, so it is a question of balancing simplicity with a toggle to allow iTunes movie streams to bitstream audio followed by resolving the implications for Siri.
That's what I wonder about. I don't use Siri much on my ATV4.

But if people mostly used Siri to start playback and not during playback, then you can do some kind of handoff, like Siri sounds in AC3 or stereo and then when the show or TV starts playing, switch to bitstream or whatever audio the content has.

On my Tivo and HBO feed through Comcast, it's stereo output between shows and once the shows begin, my AVR switched to AC3. That's the case with recordings or live viewing.

So maybe people can be trained to expect Siri not to be available until the playback ends or is stopped?
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post #5538 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by cgpublic View Post
The A10x is as powerful a MacBook Pro in single-core tasks. My understanding is that both Apple TV 4th Gen and 4K are more than capable of processing HD audio codecs, so it is a question of balancing simplicity with a toggle to allow iTunes movie streams to bitstream audio followed by resolving the implications for Siri.
...not only iTunes movie streams, they should be able to allow pass through while any content is being played, really.

I do wonder, though, if they aren't trying to mix and output DD+, (similarly to forcing DD5.1), which would allow for Atmos metadata? Not the best option, but, could work for everything except people's ripped lossless media.
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post #5539 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 09:53 AM
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I would interpret the statement specific to the Dolby Vision tag that "The movie will play in the HDR standard that your screen is capable of displaying," to mean that DV tagged titles will play in HDR on non-DV sets.

Since the ATV5 will output anything and everything in HDR, regardless of whether the content is in HDR... while I HOPE that there is an HDR10 base layer under the DV layer in their UHD DV content, it is POSSIBLE there is no HDR10 base layer (like how Vudu does HDR) and what we are actually seeing is the SDR version unconverted to HDR.

This is yet another reason why NATIVE output would be so nice. We'd have more confidence in what we are seeing.

And yes, sure, I am pretty sure I can spot up converts at this point, it's not always immediately obvious, it will be VERY hard to help other folks troubleshoot their systems without seeing the output in person, and it just smells of shenanigans.

That said, having watched some DV titles on my HDR10 setup, I think what I have seen so far looks like a genuine HDR10 base layer is in place and that up conversion is not going on. But I've mostly been watching titles source from 35mm film, so they make modest use of the increased dynamic range of HDR, anyway. More viewing is in order.

By the way, Starship Troopers looked incredibly good, with a genuine 4k scan of the original 35mm film. Sure, some of the effects show their age, but it all feels far more like "practical" effects than a CGI animated movie.... and the space scenes have astounding contrast, the natural film grain in many close ups gives me a warm feeling, and (of course) the satire is more on target today than ever before (which is sad/scary/funny/smart).
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post #5540 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 10:08 AM
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Since the ATV5 will output anything and everything in HDR, regardless of whether the content is in HDR... while I HOPE that there is an HDR10 base layer under the DV layer in their UHD DV content, it is POSSIBLE there is no HDR10 base layer (like how Vudu does HDR) and what we are actually seeing is the SDR version unconverted to HDR.

This is yet another reason why NATIVE output would be so nice. We'd have more confidence in what we are seeing.

And yes, sure, I am pretty sure I can spot up converts at this point, it's not always immediately obvious, it will be VERY hard to help other folks troubleshoot their systems without seeing the output in person, and it just smells of shenanigans.

That said, having watched some DV titles on my HDR10 setup, I think what I have seen so far looks like a genuine HDR10 base layer is in place and that up conversion is not going on. But I've mostly been watching titles source from 35mm film, so they make modest use of the increased dynamic range of HDR, anyway. More viewing is in order.

By the way, Starship Troopers looked incredibly good, with a genuine 4k scan of the original 35mm film. Sure, some of the effects show their age, but it all feels far more like "practical" effects than a CGI animated movie.... and the space scenes have astounding contrast, the natural film grain in many close ups gives me a warm feeling, and (of course) the satire is more on target today than ever before (which is sad/scary/funny/smart).
I think an easy way to spot an SDR to HDR conversion vs. real HDR is the amount of grain and sharpness. There's more grain in SDR to HDR conversions and the highlights are overly sharp. People's faces tend to look greasy in a conversion.
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post #5541 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 10:13 AM
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I need to do more testing.

Grain is a tough one to talk about verbally. I mean, there is TONS of grain in my UHD disk of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. But that's because there is a ton of grain in the film. (And, for the record, I like to preserve all the grain. I want a film based source to look like a projected movie of a pristine print.)

I'm guessing you mean video noise? In that case, so far, I haven't seen a movie labeled DV or HDR appear to be unconverted yet, but need to deliberately watch a variety of 1080p content unconverted to get a sense of what the "wrong way" looks like, and see this noise.
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post #5542 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quick question. Does selecting 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 make any difference in picture quality at all? I set mine to 4:2:2 but I haven’t had a chance to watch much 4K HDR content.

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post #5543 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 10:25 AM
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Apple asserts their chroma up sampling is better than what your display can do. So they suggest 4:2:2.

(Yes, the question is reasonable: How can they be sure? Well, just like they are sure that up converting SDR to HDR is superior....?)

IMO, you should try both.
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post #5544 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by JMGNYC View Post
There is not way to bitstream, meaning the Apple TV just passes the audio through and does not touch it. The 2 options are Dolby Digital or Best Available. With Dolby Digital Apple TV decodes the source so it can do what it needs to with it for Siri, then repacks it back to Dolby Digital and sends it to your AVR. Your AVR then decodes it. With Best Available the Apple TV decodes the source so it can do what it needs to with it for Sire, but then does not repack it and sends it onwards as uncompressed PCM Multi Channel.

Whether your AVR or the Apple TV decodes the audio is irrelevant. It will be equal. PCM is lossless and uncompressed so sending PCM to an AVR is as good as it gets. The Best Available settings really is the best available. It just doesn't make your AVR light up with a brand name like Dolby Digital.

The real issue is the Apple doesn't support DTS, DTS-HD, TrueHD, Dolby Atmos. It needs to hook into the audio and since it will not decode these formats they won't play back and they cannot pass it through.

In the end, there's no streaming services putting these out to the Apple TV so this only applies to local content. Different apps that offer local playback on Apple TV handle it differently. For example Plex transcodes audio into Dolby Digital (+) which is just like a stream from Netflix for example. Infuse decodes the other audio formats and then outputs them as PCM. Again, the only difference is that the decoding is done on the ATV not the AVR so you don't get the brand name to light up. Otherwise the audio quality is completely equal. MrMC is doing something with unpacking and repacking and doing some tricks I don't fully understand but they can get the DTS brand name to light up on an AVR. Of these ways of doing it I prefer what Infuse is doing. It is the same quality as if your AVR is doing it, just not with the brand name in lights.

Hi,

Will I get DD+ from streaming apps on apple tv if my soundbar supports TrueHD, Dolby Digital , Dolby Digital + , Atmos AND PCM 2.0 ?
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post #5545 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 11:27 AM
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Quick question. Does selecting 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 make any difference in picture quality at all? I set mine to 4:2:2 but I haven’t had a chance to watch much 4K HDR content.

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Where do you make this selection?


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post #5546 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 01:01 PM
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Nothing happens. You get no HDR. It will still be UHD.
Wrong. I have compared numerous UHD-BD titles against the iTunes DV equivalent on an HDR10 only display and you absolutely do get HDR10.
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post #5547 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Apple asserts their chroma up sampling is better than what your display can do. So they suggest 4:2:2.

(Yes, the question is reasonable: How can they be sure? Well, just like they are sure that up converting SDR to HDR is superior....?)

IMO, you should try both.
do you know if there are color banding issues with 4:2:2 chroma forcing 8-bit output?

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post #5548 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 01:36 PM
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Have to say, I'm really impressed with iTunes' 4k/HDR encodes. I turned on the playback hud in the developer settings on my 4k Apple TV, and it looks like the 4K iTunes encodes seem to be variable between 25-30mbps. I've seen it get as high as around 35mbps too. They look fantastic too. One other interesting thing of note, is it seems to always pull the Dolby Vision files even if you set the video output to HDR10. It must be doing some conversion between HDR formats on the fly, because the videos definitely still looked like they have HDR.

4K HDR Wonder Woman iTunes Media Info: https://imgur.com/uXNT0Mm

4K HDR Luke Cage Netflix Media Info: https://imgur.com/UsgIp9o

Last edited by jwort93; 09-24-2017 at 01:39 PM.
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post #5549 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 02:15 PM
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HDR10 is basically just a subset of Dolby Vision. So the conversion is like a down conversion. It’s way better than SDR, but the real question is it good enough?


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post #5550 of 23701 Old 09-24-2017, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
All DV titles can do HDR10. There will never be a Dolby Vision title that cannot do HDR10. HDR10 always must be present.
Not necessarily true. With a BD 4k, if in DV, then HDR10 is also required.

But for streaming, there can be only DV and not HDR10. Just look at all the UHD Vudu titles that have HDR. It's only DV. No HDR10. If you play one of these movies on a display that only does HDR10, then there will be no HDR.

The problem with ATV 4K is that if the show only has DV version of HDR, it will still appear HDRish on an HDR10 display because the friggin' box send everything out as HDR. The HDR on the ATV is a mess and a joke. Shame on Apple for this atrocity.
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