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post #5551 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
do you know if there are color banding issues with 4:2:2 chroma forcing 8-bit output?
I only saw the 4:2:2 banding when going through my receiver, and even then it was only on the 24 Hz setting. Didn’t see it on 60 Hz 4:2:2.

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Originally Posted by Larry Little View Post
Not necessarily true. With a BD 4k, if in DV, then HDR10 is also required.

But for streaming, there can be only DV and not HDR10. Just look at all the UHD Vudu titles that have HDR. It's only DV. No HDR10. If you play one of these movies on a display that only does HDR10, then there will be no HDR.

The problem with ATV 4K is that if the show only has DV version of HDR, it will still appear HDRish on an HDR10 display because the friggin' box send everything out as HDR. The HDR on the ATV is a mess and a joke. Shame on Apple for this atrocity.
Depends on the streaming service. Apple has said on iTunes each title may have HDR10, DV, both, or neither.

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post #5552 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Little View Post
But for streaming, there can be only DV and not HDR10. Just look at all the UHD Vudu titles that have HDR. It's only DV. No HDR10. If you play one of these movies on a display that only does HDR10, then there will be no HDR.



The problem with ATV 4K is that if the show only has DV version of HDR, it will still appear HDRish on an HDR10 display because the friggin' box send everything out as HDR. The HDR on the ATV is a mess and a joke. Shame on Apple for this atrocity.

Sony TVs that support HDR10 can play all Netflix DV content available to my DV TV, in HDR10. Does Netflix have encodes of both, or is the app just converting it on the fly? Is Vudu just making a statement by only supporting the format they approve of? Could they convert to HDR10 in the app if they wanted?

How do you propose Apple display Netflix DV content on an HDR10 only TV? As SDR? Seems most would prefer whichever looks the best.






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post #5553 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jwort93 View Post
Have to say, I'm really impressed with iTunes' 4k/HDR encodes. I turned on the playback hud in the developer settings on my 4k Apple TV, and it looks like the 4K iTunes encodes seem to be variable between 25-30mbps. I've seen it get as high as around 35mbps too. They look fantastic too. One other interesting thing of note, is it seems to always pull the Dolby Vision files even if you set the video output to HDR10. It must be doing some conversion between HDR formats on the fly, because the videos definitely still looked like they have HDR.



4K HDR Wonder Woman iTunes Media Info: https://imgur.com/uXNT0Mm



4K HDR Luke Cage Netflix Media Info: https://imgur.com/UsgIp9o


Very nice. I knew they had to be running high bitrate due to how good the movies looked. How do you enable that overlay?


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post #5554 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rick98761 View Post
Very nice. I knew they had to be running high bitrate due to how good the movies looked. How do you enable that overlay?


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If you have a Mac with xcode 9, follow the steps on this page under the Apple TV area: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/...-9-with-ios-11

Then once you've finished that, go to the settings app on the Apple TV, and there will be a new developer section. In there you can turn on the playback hud.

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post #5555 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 04:34 PM
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Patently False

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Little View Post
But for streaming, there can be only DV and not HDR10. Just look at all the UHD Vudu titles that have HDR. It's only DV. No HDR10. If you play one of these movies on a display that only does HDR10, then there will be no HDR.
Why are you citing Vudu encodes as proof for Apple encodes. Apple has already addressed how it handles 4K content within their support documentation:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Little View Post
The problem with ATV 4K is that if the show only has DV version of HDR, it will still appear HDRish on an HDR10 display because the friggin' box send everything out as HDR. The HDR on the ATV is a mess and a joke. Shame on Apple for this atrocity.
That's simply not true, as evidenced from this direct quote from Apple support:

Quote:
When you first connect your Apple TV 4K to a 4K television capable of HDR10 or Dolby Vision, you may be prompted to run a short display test for these formats. Follow the onscreen instructions to run the test, and confirm that you have a clear picture. If Apple TV 4K is unable to confirm that your television can display Dolby Vision or HDR10, it will automatically revert back to the mode it was previously using. To confirm which video mode your Apple TV 4K is using, go to Settings > Video and Audio. From here, you can manually select a display format.
If you don't like the auto processing from the Apple TV 4K, you may select a setting that better reflects your preference, e.g., SDR.

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post #5556 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 04:46 PM
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One thing I don’t like is that I need to have it set to HDR to see what content is in HDR on Netflix. If I have it set to SDR it won’t tell me what’s in UHD (such as Ozarks).

I need to start off every viewing session in HDR and then likely switch it back to SDR.

Another reason why native is key!
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post #5557 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgpublic View Post
Why are you citing Vudu encodes as proof for Apple encodes. Apple has already addressed how it handles 4K content within their support documentation:



That's simply not true, as evidenced from this direct quote from Apple support:



If you don't like the auto processing from the Apple TV 4K, you may select a setting that better reflects your preference, e.g., SDR.
Just because the output is HDR10 doesn't mean the content has HDR10.

For example, 1080p SDR is output as HDR10, as well, if you let the system choose the output type for you. I don't think many of us would call that true HDR of any type.
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post #5558 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
One thing I don’t like is that I need to have it set to HDR to see what content is in HDR on Netflix. If I have it set to SDR it won’t tell me what’s in UHD (such as Ozarks).

I need to start off every viewing session in HDR and then likely switch it back to SDR.

Another reason why native is key!
I suspected as much from previous Netflix history before my TV got the Netflix app with HDR update. HDR flags only show if compatible settings are applied with my Roku Ultra as well but at least HDR isn't forced for SDR content. Albeit, it still has its quirks.

Agreed; native would be ideal for a well rounded streamer. Thanks for confirming.

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post #5559 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 06:56 PM
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Is there any concrete reason (for content) to use 60Hz rather than 24Hz, be it color depth or any other reason? I much prefer the look of 24fps to 3:2 pulldown, but I know there was some question as to banding, etc. at 24Hz.


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post #5560 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 07:05 PM
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24hz is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk86 View Post
Is there any concrete reason (for content) to use 60Hz rather than 24Hz, be it color depth or any other reason? I much prefer the look of 24fps to 3:2 pulldown, but I know there was some question as to banding, etc. at 24Hz.


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post #5561 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 07:36 PM
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9 out of 10 Viewers Agree

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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Just because the output is HDR10 doesn't mean the content has HDR10. For example, 1080p SDR is output as HDR10, as well, if you let the system choose the output type for you. I don't think many of us would call that true HDR of any type.
If you don’t like the appearance of the default setting, change the setting to one you prefer.

Here’s the thing. 95% of consumers don’t care what ‘true HDR’ represents, they just want it to look better with zero user involvement.
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post #5562 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cgpublic View Post
If you don’t like the appearance of the default setting, change the setting to one you prefer.
I agree. Unfortunately that's not an option.

I would like 'source direct' so I am getting the original signal without adjustment.
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post #5563 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 08:05 PM
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Another thing I’m noticing is that there’s not a huge difference between 24hz and 60hz with respect to Judder
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post #5564 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Another thing I’m noticing is that there’s not a huge difference between 24hz and 60hz with respect to Judder
Yes there is.

You're probably conditioned not to notice 3:2 pulldown judder.

Either that, or your television is doing reverse pulldown to get the framerate back to the original 24Hz.

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post #5565 of 23716 Old 09-24-2017, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk86 View Post
Is there any concrete reason (for content) to use 60Hz rather than 24Hz, be it color depth or any other reason? I much prefer the look of 24fps to 3:2 pulldown, but I know there was some question as to banding, etc. at 24Hz.

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To my knowledge most TV shows, and especially sports, aren’t captured at 24 fps, so unless you’re watching a movie you’re probably going to want 60 Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Another thing I’m noticing is that there’s not a huge difference between 24hz and 60hz with respect to Judder
Is your TV doing a reverse 3:2 pulldown when the ATV is set to 60 Hz? If it is then they should look pretty much the same with respect to judder.

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post #5566 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by vipergts2207 View Post
To my knowledge most TV shows, and especially sports, aren’t captured at 24 fps, so unless you’re watching a movie you’re probably going to want 60 Hz.







Is your TV doing a reverse 3:2 pulldown when the ATV is set to 60 Hz? If it is then they should look pretty much the same with respect to judder.


Aren’t most cable tv shows shot at 30Hz? If so, why wouldn’t I use that refresh rate?


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post #5567 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk86 View Post
Aren’t most cable tv shows shot at 30Hz? If so, why wouldn’t I use that refresh rate?


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No, most cable dramas are shot at 24 Hz. Live TV and some reality programmes are shot at 60 Hz (hence the 'smooth' motion. Yes 60i (interlaced) TV is actually 60 unique images per second.)

Some TV commercials and the occasional programme are shot at 30 Hz.
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post #5568 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post
No, most cable dramas are shot at 24 Hz. Live TV and some reality programmes are shot at 60 Hz (hence the 'smooth' motion. Yes 60i (interlaced) TV is actually 60 unique images per second.)



Some TV commercials and the occasional programme are shot at 30 Hz.


So then can you explain to me exactly what Chroma does and what it’s relationship to refresh rate is, if any?


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post #5569 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post
No, most cable dramas are shot at 24 Hz. Live TV and some reality programmes are shot at 60 Hz (hence the 'smooth' motion. Yes 60i (interlaced) TV is actually 60 unique images per second.)

Some TV commercials and the occasional programme are shot at 30 Hz.
Isn't most live sports shot at 60hz? Say college football on ESPN or fox sports?
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post #5570 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 06:23 AM
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If things aren’t working or looking right, check your cables:

(From OWC): “Apple's doc recommends cables with a "Dolby Vision mark" (tested with 4K Apple TV they say). Their example 2M Belkin Ultra High Speed cable is $29.95 at Apple's store and the specs list "up to 48 Gbps" - that's the (future) HDMI 2.1 spec rate. (The Apple TV 4K's specs show an HDMI 2.0a port - which is up to 18Gbps. I don't know of any retail HDMI 2.1 spec products yet. Hopefully a 4K Apple TV teardown shows what chip they're using.)
I've never seen a 'Dolby Vision' marked (or 48Gbps) HDMI cable (yet), but for current HDMI 2.0x 4K/UHD HDR/DV, a (HDMI 2.0x/18GHz) Certified Premium HDMI cable (6ft/as short as possible) worked reliably with a 4K/UHD HDR10 60P movie disc - Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk. (The only UHD/60P movie disc to date and a good stress test for cables, as other HDR10 and all DV discs to date are 24P.) IMHO Apple should have included a cable. (Some 4K UHD Players do, as it helps minimize returns due to cable related problems.) 6ft Certified Premium HDMI 2.0/18Gbps cables are under $10 retail at some sellers. There's also a free HDMI Premium Cable Authentication App to verify the code on the box label.)”
see: About 4K, HDR, and Dolby Vision on your Apple TV 4K
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208074
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post #5571 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 06:24 AM
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Apple support documents updated for ATV 4K:

Surround sound settings on your Apple TV 4K or Apple TV (4th generation)
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204069

About Apple TV 4K and Apple TV (4th generation) software updates
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207936

Set up your Apple TV
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205358

Control your TV or receiver with your Siri Remote or Apple TV Remote
https://support.apple.com/en-us/ht205225

If your Apple TV won‘t turn on
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT200197
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post #5572 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipergts2207 View Post
Is your TV doing a reverse 3:2 pulldown when the ATV is set to 60 Hz? If it is then they should look pretty much the same with respect to judder.
On my HTPC when I run plex media player or Kodi at 24Hz it looks a lot smoother. In the case of the ATV5, 60Hz looked like 24Hz which means that there is some judder with DeJudder at 2, and a ton of judder with dejudder turned off.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by brotony View Post
I suspected as much from previous Netflix history before my TV got the Netflix app with HDR update. HDR flags only show if compatible settings are applied with my Roku Ultra as well but at least HDR isn't forced for SDR content. Albeit, it still has its quirks.

Agreed; native would be ideal for a well rounded streamer. Thanks for confirming.

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post #5574 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
One thing I don’t like is that I need to have it set to HDR to see what content is in HDR on Netflix. If I have it set to SDR it won’t tell me what’s in UHD (such as Ozarks).

I need to start off every viewing session in HDR and then likely switch it back to SDR.

Another reason why native is key!
I wonder how the Netflix App behaves if you start it while in HDR mode ... but keep it running in the background (Long Press Home) and switch ATV back to SDR and return to the App.
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post #5575 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk86 View Post
Aren’t most cable tv shows shot at 30Hz? If so, why wouldn’t I use that refresh rate?


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30 goes evenly into 60, so using 30 Hz isn’t really necessary. The fact that 24 doesn’t go into 60 evenly is the purpose behind 24 Hz native output. Some displays can’t do the reverse pulldown which is needed to eliminate judder.

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It seems my Apple TV 4k is insisting that I use the 4k Dolby Vision video setting, at least to get started. I say this because yesterday I set it to 1080p SDR because I was watching content that is encoded in that format. Today, when I turned it on, it gave me the screen that asks if you want to try Dolby Vision. The only problem is that none of the remote buttons would work. I tried both the original Apple remote as well as my Harmony remote and nothing would work. I had to unplug the unit in order to get back to the Home screen. I guess I'll have to leave the setting at 4k Dolby Vision in order that it will work the next time I want to watch anything on it? Anyone else run into this issue? I have a Vizio "P" series display along with a Denon X6400H and the Apple TV 4k is connected to AVR via HDMI.

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post #5577 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umenon View Post
I wonder how the Netflix App behaves if you start it while in HDR mode ... but keep it running in the background (Long Press Home) and switch ATV back to SDR and return to the App.
I tested that. It will show UHD titles in the menu. I don't know if it switches the stream quality if you move that way. But from the menu it will change what's UHD vs what isn't.

They should also add a native framerate if they are not going to have the auto-switching. I just assume 24p for now.

The best solution for them would be to have the user set "native mode" vs "user selected but defaulted to 60p HDR mode"
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post #5578 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lujan View Post
It seems my Apple TV 4k is insisting that I use the 4k Dolby Vision video setting, at least to get started. I say this because yesterday I set it to 1080p SDR because I was watching content that is encoded in that format. Today, when I turned it on, it gave me the screen that asks if you want to try Dolby Vision. The only problem is that none of the remote buttons would work. I tried both the original Apple remote as well as my Harmony remote and nothing would work. I had to unplug the unit in order to get back to the Home screen. I guess I'll have to leave the setting at 4k Dolby Vision in order that it will work the next time I want to watch anything on it? Anyone else run into this issue? I have a Vizio "P" series display along with a Denon X6400H and the Apple TV 4k is connected to AVR via HDMI.

That's strange.

Two different things going on:

The "auto detect" appears to not like your custom choice of output. That's probably a "feature" though since you have told it what you want and it is prompting you to change, you could be forgiven for thinking it's a bug. I have found that eh ATV wants to do a new "auto detect" when I start it up as well. It is annoying but maybe useful for unsophisticated users?

The unresponsive buttons: I haven't seen this and it's probably just a hiccup. If it continues you should contact Apple support, imo.
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post #5579 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by vipergts2207 View Post
30 goes evenly into 60, so using 30 Hz isn’t really necessary. The fact that 24 doesn’t go into 60 evenly is the purpose behind 24 Hz native output. Some displays can’t do the needed reverse pulldown which is needed to eliminate the judder.


I gotcha. Is there ANY quantifiable advantage to 60Hz, though, outside of menus’ etc.? Does it affect color depth or anything else (I know you had been thinking it was more related to your receiver). I haven’t noticed any banding using 24Hz, but me noticing and it being present can be two different things, haha.


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post #5580 of 23716 Old 09-25-2017, 08:38 AM
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60 is way better than 30 because at least the TV can help with 3:2 pulldown to normalize the image.

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