Apple TV owners' thread. - Page 451 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13501 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 07:14 AM
 
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Just cause its 4K on VUDU doesn’t mean you can play it back in 4K. VUDU is a content provider not a streaming device. The streaming device is how you can or can not have 4K, not VUDU.
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post #13502 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
While I'm very impressed with the ATV4K on a number of fronts, it isn't perfect.
That's certainly the case. However my response was to a specific set of complaints offered in support of the thesis that Apple quality has declined. I.e. the device is malfunctioning because of poor software. Assuming current production software that's unlikely absent a hardware fault and I believe there's been one report in this thread of someone getting a defective ATV4K.

I thin all the rest of the reported ATV4K defects have resolved to another component.

Yes, an issue can resolve to an ATV4K defect but at this point it's more efficient to assume the flaw is elsewhere. Or that you've enabled HDMI-CEC.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13503 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Yes, an issue can resolve to an ATV4K defect but at this point it's more efficient to assume the flaw is elsewhere. Or that you've enabled HDMI-CEC.
CEC disabled in first power-on run through of Settings, in my case.

Sometimes there can be a gray area when defining "defects" and "characteristics" of a device, and different folks put some things in one basket -vs- the other, so bulletproof to one may not be bulletproof to the next.

In any case, I'm assuredly not bashing the device by any means, and as I've said, in fact like the thing quite a bit so far.

It's got a lot of uniqueness going for it, among a number of other things in the plus column.
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post #13504 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:01 AM
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So we're getting multi-channel LPCM out instead of DD+ etc...

That's something a little different - is there any particular reason for it?

Also, I'll add that I seem to be getting audio (5.1 LPCM as mentioned) that is consistently around 6-8 db lower (into AVR) than other streamers / disc sources.

Not sure why - anybody else see similar levels? I've got the ATV set to "best sound available" or something to that effect, since there is no "bitstream" option.

Thanks!
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post #13505 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bguzman View Post
This is the 25' cable I use and it works for all my 4K needs including what you are attempting. I believe you want match content and frame rate on to get HDR with output set to 4K SDR.
Thanks for the link, how does it compare to the RUIpro fiber hdmi cables? Is the RUIpro expensive because of longer lengths than the 25 feet, but even their 20 feet is prices at $139 vs, this is for $19. why such a huge difference? just curious.
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post #13506 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post
Just cause its 4K on VUDU doesn’t mean you can play it back in 4K. VUDU is a content provider not a streaming device. The streaming device is how you can or can not have 4K, not VUDU.
Just to add...

Vudu is a content provider, but they also develop and distribute their own app. While the "device" may be capable of 4K UHD HDR/DV output, Vudu must also develop an app for that device that supports UHD content streaming.

While they have developed apps for certain TVs, the Xbox One (S and X), the Google Chromecast and certain Roku devices, many other devices that are UHD "capable" (such as the Apple TV 4K) have not gotten a compatible app update. That responsibility is on Vudu...
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post #13507 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
So we're getting multi-channel LPCM out instead of DD+ etc...

That's something a little different - is there any particular reason for it?
To enable compression: Settings / Video and Audio / Reduce Loud Sounds

That's also why AC-3 is recreated from the LPCM channels. The answer to the next question is "Apple hasn't said why there's no bitstream option".

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13508 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
To enable compression: Settings / Video and Audio / Reduce Loud Sounds

That's also why AC-3 is recreated from the LPCM channels. The answer to the next question is "Apple hasn't said why there's no bitstream option".
Not sure if I understand, but I don't have the compression setting (reduce loud sounds) enabled. Presumably that means I'm getting normal (full) dynamic range.

So I don't think that's why my audio level from ATV is lower than everything else.

And are you saying that LPCM multi channel output allows them to do the dynamic range manipulation the way they want (hopefully only if you choose to "reduce loud sounds"), so that's why it's output like this?

Understood on why no bitstream. A guess would be that like many apple products and SW, they like to keep things very simple (like "reduce loud sounds" instead of "Dynamic Range") - bitstream may be a scary word to put in there - who knows.

Maybe a bitstream (or apple translation of that term) option will show up when and if Atmos does. And hopefully that may be soon!
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post #13509 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
To enable compression: Settings / Video and Audio / Reduce Loud Sounds

That's also why AC-3 is recreated from the LPCM channels. The answer to the next question is "Apple hasn't said why there's no bitstream option".
AC3 is what the iTunes movies use and by default the Apple TV decodes that format internally and just passes it via lossless LPCM. It isn't so much a recreation, per se.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
Understood on why no bitstream. A guess would be that like many apple products and SW, they like to keep things very simple (like "reduce loud sounds" instead of "Dynamic Range") - bitstream may be a scary word to put in there - who knows.

Maybe a bitstream (or apple translation of that term) option will show up when and if Atmos does. And hopefully that may be soon!
You can have the Apple TV output bitstream Dolby Digital AC3 if you would like. I use that feature on all of mine since they are connected directly to my TVs so it cannot pass anything higher than 2.0 LPCM via ARC. So I went into the Video and Audio settings and changed "Surround Sound" to Dolby Digital.
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post #13510 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:41 AM
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Has anyone else had this issue? I start a movie or a TV show and it goes to the (off) white screen with the spinning circle and never opens the next screen. Instead it goes completely (off) white. I've tried checking for software updates as well as rebooting the ATV4k but it continues to happen. I usually have to wait until the next day to get it working again. I'm wondering if there is something that can be done to get it to work immediately instead of having to wait until it clears itself?

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post #13511 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOC1963 View Post
Just to add...

Vudu is a content provider, but they also develop and distribute their own app. While the "device" may be capable of 4K UHD HDR/DV output, Vudu must also develop an app for that device that supports UHD content streaming.

While they have developed apps for certain TVs, the Xbox One (S and X), the Google Chromecast and certain Roku devices, many other devices that are UHD "capable" (such as the Apple TV 4K) have not gotten a compatible app update. That responsibility is on Vudu...
So Vudu is free to offer all their UHD content - in UHD / HDR - on the apple platform?

I was assuming that they were limited as they are by apple, and the potential competition to iTunes - not by their (Vudu) not providing a capable App.

The assumption is because, among other examples, going back, apple always fought to keep Apps like Rhapsody etc... off their platform, because of the competition to iTunes. You couldn't stream any music on an apple device for years - had to buy songs a-la-cart from iTunes. They slowly and begrudgingly acquiesced, but it took awhile, and IIRC involved some legal intervention.

I'll say a major reason I considered an ATV was that apple has agreed to the Movies Anywhere concept. This is highly unusual for them it seems to me, and a great thing for the customer. So maybe they are taking a renewed look at how they interact with things external.

If no Vudu UHD isn't related to apple in some way, Vudu needs a new management team yesterday, IMO.
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post #13512 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:44 AM
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So Vudu is free to offer all their UHD content - in UHD / HDR - on the apple platform?

I was assuming that they were limited as they are by apple, and the potential competition to iTunes - not by their (Vudu) not providing a capable App.

The assumption is because, among other examples, going back, apple always fought to keep Apps like Rhapsody etc... off their platform, because of the competition to iTunes. You couldn't stream any music on an apple device for years - had to buy songs a-la-cart from iTunes. They slowly and begrudgingly acquiesced, but it took awhile, and IIRC involved some legal intervention.

I'll say a major reason I considered an ATV was that apple has agreed to the Movies Anywhere concept. This is highly unusual for them it seems to me, and a great thing for the customer. So maybe they are taking a renewed look at how they interact with things external.

If no Vudu UHD isn't related to apple in some way, Vudu needs a new management team yesterday, IMO.
There could be some politics there but then one would think that Apple wouldn't allow Amazon to stream 4K on the Apple TV.

I've had my Sony Z9D since August 2016 and the Vudu app is still limited to 1080p. I think Vudu development is just a hot mess.
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post #13513 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 08:56 AM
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There could be some politics there but then one would think that Apple wouldn't allow Amazon to stream 4K on the Apple TV.

I've had my Sony Z9D since August 2016 and the Vudu app is still limited to 1080p. I think Vudu development is just a hot mess.
Wow - unbelievable. Well I have an older (probably same 2016 vintage) Sony X800 4K disc player that won't do Vudu 4K either - apparently doesn't have required security capability, or something to that effect.

Well I can tell you that the Vudu app on the Shield TV has issues, but technically does offer UHD and Atmos, but ATM it's video output level is darker than every other App by a margin, so it's essentially broken IMO. You can Cast the Vudu stream to the Shield and the level is proper, but then ATM some UHD titles don't Cast (though they are working on that - it worked great for a day or 2 a few days ago - they are testing the fix).

So some would find it either a nightmare or just impossible to do Vudu UHD with another (generally capable) streamer - like the Shield for one reason or another.

So there I have to really give the ATV4K some praise ATM. Very easy to use and it works with only a few quirks that I've noticed.

On the other hand, when they put the Casting fix they had live a few days ago back in place, I can watch UHD movies with Atmos via Vudu Casting to Shield, and have the Atmos audio track I can't get on the ATV. So the movie itself is "better" due to Atmos, but the browsing and UI experience is "worse". No way the average spouse or kids would deal with what is required to watch this way, IMO, but in my case, family generally comes in when they hear "It's ready - let's watch the movie" and so they don't deal with / see any of it anyway. They just see / hear the movie while it's playing. They could care less about any of the other stuff.

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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post

I'll say a major reason I considered an ATV was that apple has agreed to the Movies Anywhere concept. This is highly unusual for them it seems to me, and a great thing for the customer. So maybe they are taking a renewed look at how they interact with things external.
Not unusual when you consider Disney is behind Movies Anywhere.

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post #13515 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:02 AM
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Wow - unbelievable. Well I have an older (probably same 2016 vintage) Sony X800 4K disc player that won't do Vudu 4K either - apparently doesn't have required security capability, or something to that effect.

Well I can tell you that the Vudu app on the Shield TV has issues, but technically does offer UHD and Atmos, but ATM it's video output level is darker than every other App by a margin, so it's essentially broken IMO. You can Cast the Vudu stream to the Shield and the level is proper, but then ATM some UHD titles don't Cast (though they are working on that - it worked great for a day or 2 a few days ago - they are testing the fix).

So some would find it either a nightmare or just impossible to do Vudu UHD with another (generally capable) streamer - like the Shield for one reason or another.

So there I have to really give the ATV4K some praise ATM. Very easy to use and it works with only a few quirks that I've noticed.
Yup, Vudu is a mess across the board. I noticed the same on my Shield. I haven't really tested it much on the consoles though. That said, really the only place I have seen it work properly is on my OLED.

So yeah, in short, it seems like the tvOS app has just fallen victim to crappy development. Almost makes me wonder if they have a small engineering group and they just don't have the capacity to work across all the platforms.
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post #13516 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:07 AM
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Yup, Vudu is a mess across the board. I noticed the same on my Shield. I haven't really tested it much on the consoles though. That said, really the only place I have seen it work properly is on my OLED.

So yeah, in short, it seems like the tvOS app has just fallen victim to crappy development. Almost makes me wonder if they have a small engineering group and they just don't have the capacity to work across all the platforms.
They have the financial ability to be a player in this arena, and they've secured a number of deals (latest of course is exclusive Star Wars UHD / Atmos).

Crazy they aren't playing hard.

Seems to me it would cost peanuts (in their game) to hire some talented coders / SW specialists and get it handled.
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post #13517 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
Yup, Vudu is a mess across the board. I noticed the same on my Shield. I haven't really tested it much on the consoles though. That said, really the only place I have seen it work properly is on my OLED.

So yeah, in short, it seems like the tvOS app has just fallen victim to crappy development. Almost makes me wonder if they have a small engineering group and they just don't have the capacity to work across all the platforms.
I think that's exactly it. Vudu has to support so many different apps, I think their dev team is really small and overwhelmed. They seem to have problems across the board. I mean the damn ATV Vudu app hasn't been updated AT ALL since release in Aug 2017 (pre 4K)....and that's to even fix general bugs. Also they needed to do something with the streams themselves for the Apple platform.....or at least something different then what they were doing for all their other apps. I remember when it was first released on the ATV, they didn't have all TV seasons re-encoded to HD. So I had some shows that would top at 480p on the ATV. Those eventually got updated.

I'm assuming the app will get updated at some point.....I just don't hold my breath anymore.

For the most part I've seen the Vudu app be rock solid in two places....Roku and LG OLEDs.

And much like Amazon, I'm assuming the Vudu execs look at the ATV in two ways:
1) It's estimated to be the 4th place streamer on the market in marketshare (numbers from pre-4K version, but I doubt it made up that much since release).
2) They won't make money "directly" from the app on the device with no purchase/renting options (Vudu's choice but still a factor I'm sure).

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post #13518 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:14 AM
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Not unusual when you consider Disney is behind Movies Anywhere.
So good for Disney and MA, but what's apples up side here?
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post #13519 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:21 AM
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For the most part I've seen the Vudu app be rock solid in two places....Roku and LG OLEDs.
Haven't tried it on my OLED, but Vudu (and likely other apps, but unknown) has mildly (but infuriating) stuttering 24p on Roku Ultra (old and new version).

I think 60p is OK (doesn't stutter) if you don't mind 60p-->24p look (and most are fine with it).

ATV has had excellent (so far) 24p output for me. That's been a tough thing for other dedicated or built-in streamers to do exactly right IMO, with exception of Shield, (which if the planets stay lined up has been doing this properly as well.)
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post #13520 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
Haven't tried it on my OLED, but Vudu (and likely other apps, but unknown) has mildly (but infuriating) stuttering 24p on Roku Ultra (old and new version).

I think 60p is OK (doesn't stutter) if you don't mind 60p-->24p look (and most are fine with it).

ATV has had excellent (so far) 24p output for me. That's been a tough thing for other dedicated or built-in streamers to do exactly right IMO, with exception of Shield, (which if the planets stay lined up has been doing this properly as well.)
Yeah, I should have mentioned it's 60Hz on the Roku as that's what I have mine set at (since the Roku frame matching doesn't work anywhere near as well as the ATV frame matching). Although I'm sure that's personal and setup dependent......my Sony does a fine job with 60Hz where I don't notice any judder (thankfully). It's one less setting I have to worry about
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post #13521 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:25 AM
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So good for Disney and MA, but what's apples up side here?
Preservation.

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post #13522 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:30 AM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post



The assumption is because, among other examples, going back, apple always fought to keep Apps like Rhapsody etc... off their platform, because of the competition to iTunes. You couldn't stream any music on an apple device for years - had to buy songs a-la-cart from iTunes. They slowly and begrudgingly acquiesced, but it took awhile, and IIRC involved some legal intervention.



This is not true. I don’t know where your assumptions came from.

You should also not confuse Apple limiting third parties ability to stream stuff from their applications verses them letting stream stuff from their devices. For example you cannot stream Vudu movies from iMovie (Apple’s app) but you can from the Vudu application on all Apple devices.

From the start with iOS (now 10+ years old) Apple has only said that they wanted their fair 30% of sales that occur from within the app or in the App Store itself. Many apps, like Amazon Kindle books, got around this by having the user go to a browser to purchase.

The only iOS platform that I know of where Apple is more restrictive is CarPlay apps where they they tightly control what apps are available when iOS is displaying on a CarPlay device.

The original iPod also had restrictions about copying music off the device that was about the musics industry anti-piracy concerns. Apple also limited some other things concerning copy protection in iTunes but you could always use third party players.

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post #13523 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
Preservation.

I'd agree, and think delivering what the customer wants is a great preservation tactic, and I think that's what I essentially said earlier, but my point is that it's just not apple's traditional approach.

I thought you were implying that there was some corporate connection between apple and Disney. Speculation abounds, but AFAIK there is none.
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post #13524 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:44 AM
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This is not true. I don’t know where your assumptions came from.

You should also not confuse Apple limiting third parties ability to stream stuff from their applications verses them letting stream stuff from their devices. For example you cannot stream Vudu movies from iMovie (Apple’s app) but you can from the Vudu application on all Apple devices.

From the start with iOS (now 10+ years old) Apple has only said that they wanted their fair 30% of sales that occur from within the app or in the App Store itself. Many apps, like Amazon Kindle books, got around this by having the user go to a browser to purchase.

The only iOS platform that I know of where Apple is more restrictive is CarPlay apps where they they tightly control what apps are available when iOS is displaying on a CarPlay device.

The original iPod also had restrictions about copying music off the device that was about the musics industry anti-piracy concerns. Apple also limited some other things concerning copy protection in iTunes but you could always use third party players.
I only know going way back - Ipod back - you could not use the Rhapsody service on it. As I remember (and this is going back a ways...) it was not allowed by Apple (and I don't know enough to debate if it was legal pressure from the Music industry or what - only that it wouldn't work) , but eventually was settled and the app and service was finally available. I don't remember all the details, but as a user of the Apple device, the net result was that your choices were limited. If you used another brand of device, they were less so. This was the case for awhile, as I recall.

I also recall that Apple didn't offer an alternative to "renting" music - like Rhapsody did (and everybody else, now). So not having the ability to use the service on Apple devices was pretty major at that time, and the source of much frustration.

I'm sure you're correct on the newer stuff as prior to picking up this ATV the last apple device I bought was an ipod touch of some variety, so don't have any direct user experience to reference - only what I read.
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post #13525 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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While they have developed apps for certain TVs, the Xbox One (S and X), the Google Chromecast and certain Roku devices, many other devices that are UHD "capable" (such as the Apple TV 4K) have not gotten a compatible app update. That responsibility is on Vudu...
It's even worse. Some set of "newer" features (e.g. SW:TLJ) won't play in UHD on the Chromecast Ultra while others are fine. Vudu says "any day now".

I might type 2K for 1080p.
UDP-203/ATV4K(6,2)/X3500/LG C8
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post #13526 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 10:06 AM
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It's even worse. Some set of "newer" features (e.g. SW:TLJ) won't play in UHD on the Chromecast Ultra while others are fine. Vudu says "any day now".
That's the fix I mentioned. They rolled it out, at least on a limited basis - just a few days ago, and how I don't know because my Shield did not update anything (I've got auto updates OFF), and the Casting device also had no updates. Somehow it was done via the stream itself, or something in the stream.

At any rate, the fixed version they rolled out that hit my Shield was great - it worked perfectly, and provided some enhancements and improvements at the same time (better OSD info, no SD PQ at initial stream start or after a FF / REW).

It also hit and worked on my Sony X930D set (built in Chromecast, like the Shield).

But after about 24 hours it was gone...

At least we know they are in fact working on it. You'd think they would have had it straight by the time the Star Wars movie released, since they appear to have the exclusive in UHD / Atmos.

You'd also think that their focus would be on rehabbing the ATV Vudu app though - there must be 30 Apple TVs - at least - for every Shield TV device out there. Probably a lot of Chromecasts and Android TVs, but ATV is a very mainstream and widely used unit - would make sense to update that one ASAP you'd think.

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post #13527 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 10:13 AM
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I only know going way back - Ipod back - you could not use the Rhapsody service on it. As I remember (and this is going back a ways...) it was not allowed by Apple (and I don't know enough to debate if it was legal pressure from the Music industry or what - only that it wouldn't work) , but eventually was settled and the app and service was finally available. I don't remember all the details, but as a user of the Apple device, the net result was that your choices were limited. If you used another brand of device, they were less so. This was the case for awhile, as I recall.



I also recall that Apple didn't offer an alternative to "renting" music - like Rhapsody did (and everybody else, now). So not having the ability to use the service on Apple devices was pretty major at that time, and the source of much frustration.



I'm sure you're correct on the newer stuff as prior to picking up this ATV the last apple device I bought was an ipod touch of some variety, so don't have any direct user experience to reference - only what I read.


The iPod (pre iOS version) was indeed a closed system. It did not support any third party native apps (and neither did the original iPhone!). Apple in the early days of the iPod only supported FairPlay and non copy protected MP3s. You could however copy any non-copy protected MP3 music into iTunes and then copy that to the iPod. So if the music you downloaded was not copy protected then the system was open. [IPods (again pre iOS) never streamed music as well and neither did any other MP3/music players at the time. Streaming did not occur until after the iPhone came out (on all portable devices that I know of. )]

All this was to get the support of the music industry, get them to sell songs at 99cents on iTunes, and frankly save the music industry. However prior to the music store Apple celebrated in their adds “rip burn play” in their MacOS ads which I’m sure the music industry hated.

Apple also never jumped into the subscription music business until very recently. That however was a business decision on their part and they allowed third parties running their subscription businesses on Apples platforms.

It is also interesting with Music, books, and movies that Apple has tried to push prices down further than any competitors. They only failed in books after Amazon thru help with the Justice department (in a poor ruling) forced Apple to change the way books are priced/sold in iBooks.
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post #13528 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 10:14 AM
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You guys are killing me with all this non-ATV specific posting

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post #13529 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rsonnens View Post
The iPod (pre iOS version) was indeed a closed system. It did not support any third party native apps (and neither did the original iPhone!). Apple in the early days of the iPod only supported FairPlay and non copy protected MP3s. You could however copy any non-copy protected MP3 music into iTunes and then copy that to the iPod. So if the music you downloaded was not copy protected then the system was open. [IPods (again pre iOS) never streamed music as well and neither did any other MP3/music players at the time. Streaming did not occur until after the iPhone came out (on all portable devices that I know of. )]

All this was to get the support of the music industry, get them to sell songs at 99cents on iTunes, and frankly save the music industry. However prior to the music store Apple celebrated in their adds “rip burn play” in their MacOS ads which I’m sure the music industry hated.

Apple also never jumped into the subscription music business until very recently. That however was a business decision on their part and they allowed third parties running their subscription businesses on Apples platforms.

It is also interesting with Music, books, and movies that Apple has tried to push prices down further than any competitors. They only failed in books after Amazon thru help with the Justice department (in a poor ruling) forced Apple to change the way books are priced/sold in iBooks.
Well it's that earlier situation that you describe that I was referring to, and my opinion is that they dragged their feet as long as possible to avoid having to provide the services a lot of people wanted out there, but maybe weren't as profitable for them (music streaming). They also made it difficult or impossible for anybody to get into their closed system, and it's serious revenue stream. And who wouldn't? I'm not faulting them, I'm just pointing out that many decisions along the way were aggressively (and brilliantly) geared more to the stock-holder than the device-holder. I wish I'd bought as much Apple stock as I could afford back when I bought that iPod...
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post #13530 of 23765 Old 03-16-2018, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by leonmckee View Post
You guys are killing me with all this non-ATV specific posting

Leon McKee
Sorry - back on track now.
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