Apple TV owners' thread. - Page 457 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13681 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 04:59 AM
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I have an issue I need assistance with. I’m trying to do airplay using Apple Music to my atv4k and it is working over a wireless connection just fine but when when using a wired connection it doesn’t work. I still see the atv as a destination to send the music but when I select it it tries to send it but it stops. I obviously prefer the wired connection. No problems using airplay mirroring which is strange. I’ve read about IPv6 being a culprit but I don’t see any way to disable it and I honestly doubt that is the issue. Any thoughts?


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post #13682 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 05:11 AM
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I just yesterday purchased Apple TV 4K 32GB model. I first plugged it to my computer monitor and did initial setup and then updated firmware to 11.2.6 version and loaded Netflix, HBO and so on. Then I moved it to living room and plugged it to my Yamaha RX-V1800 which it connected to my projector (BenQ W5000). Everything seems to work and automatic refresh rate for Netflix 24p content also appears to work OK.

However my first impressions was that sound quality, especially dynamic is decreased in Netflix. I had previously WDTV Live and it did output bitstream DD+ in Netflix but Apple TV wants to do decoding by itself and output PCM. I know that should not make any difference but I could swear that audio dynamic was completely lost. Everything sounded quite muted even I upped volume. All special effects sounded compressed. If I switched audio output mode from default best to Dolby Digital all audio dynamic was restored but audio will be down sampled from DD+ to DD so definitely not optimal solution. I had many years ago PS3 fat that I used a long time to play blu-ray and it did decode audio and output them as PCM and I had zero issue with sound dynamics. I now have PS3 slim and also couple standalone players and if I switch those between PCM and bitstream there is absolutely no problems, so I know my receiver can handle PCM just fine. Is there known issue with Apple TV 4K PCM or what might be the culprit for bad audio? I have made sure I have not dynamic range compression selected in Apple TV, but it definitely sounds like it is doing that and hard, I mean usually in my another devices trying that option has very small effect in dynamics, nothing like what I've been experiencing with Apple TV.

Also I got feeling that image quality in Netflix was not always as sharp as it was with WDTV Live. Especially I got that impression when I tried 1080/24p content which I selected in Apple TV settings to output as 1080 SDR 24p, so it should not do any conversions. However I felt that material that was encoded in 50p looked somewhat better. I live in Europe so Netflix has also some 50p content.
I noticed that there was no way of getting stream information from Apple TV as it is possible with WDTV Live so that I could verify I was really getting 1080 stream but I see no reason why it was not that because my network is capable of that and I never had any problems with any other devices. I also ran download speed test in Apple TV to verify network speed and it was exactly what it was supposed to be.

So in the end, I finally got device that automatically can adjust refresh rate in Netflix (in WDTV Live I had to do it manually every time I used it, and often go by trial and error to get right refresh rate selected for the movie I was watching) but I got two problems - lost audio dynamics and softer looking image quality.
I hope this is just TV OS problem but I must admit I haven't been doing my homework by reading about Apple TV user comments and reviews of audio and video quality, so maybe this is just what this box is able to produce. I'd be appreciated to hear more from others what they think. Another reason I got this Apple TV was that my received has no free HDMI inputs and I desperately needed to get HBO and few other local streaming services for my projector and I did not want to add any HDMI switch to add one more device so I replaced my trusty old WDTV (which is basically limited to Netflix app only) with it.
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post #13683 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 05:19 AM
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People have expressed concerns over the years with Apple’s approach to audio. I think there is agreement that the volume level can be lowered versus other sources, but there is disagreement whether the dynamics are compressed.

I can’t imagine why you are seeing image softness. The server delivering content to your ATV may be different from the one serving your WDTV so you may be getting a different bit rate or network congestion.
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post #13684 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 05:40 AM
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Thanks for your reply. I've been just googling and there seems to be quite a lot complaints about audio. Like I mentioned above, volume level is lower when Apple TV output PCM. But I felt that upping volume did not make it any more dynamic sounding. I need to do more experiments. What could be causing lower audio level between bitstream and PCM in Apple TV?

My first thought about image softness was also that I have understood Netflix has own video streams for each device but I did not realize there could be such a huge difference in quality, especially considering how powerful device Apple TV is versus WDTV Live. There should not be network related problems. Even my Chromecast (iPad controlling it) connected to Panasonic plasma has flawless Netflix image quality. I would have purchase another Chromecast for my projector but Chromecast does not support 24p output, so that is the only reason options are quite limited and when I saw Apple TV has finally brought 24p output in new TV OS I thought there is finally device that has everything I need but I guess not without serious trade off.
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post #13685 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
So we're getting multi-channel LPCM out instead of DD+ etc...

That's something a little different - is there any particular reason for it?

Also, I'll add that I seem to be getting audio (5.1 LPCM as mentioned) that is consistently around 6-8 db lower (into AVR) than other streamers / disc sources.

Not sure why - anybody else see similar levels? I've got the ATV set to "best sound available" or something to that effect, since there is no "bitstream" option.

Thanks!
I'm also finding reduced audio levels relative to other streaming sources.

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post #13686 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by andyadler View Post
I'm also finding reduced audio levels relative to other streaming sources.
Do you feel that it is still dynamically compressed even if you crank up the volume?
I would not mind adjusting volume for Apple TV (If I recall correctly my AVR has input based volume buried in its menu) but my first impression was that it still did not sound right when I upped volume.
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post #13687 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post





Disney and Apple couldn’t agree on pricing for UHD so no Disney UHD appears on iTunes.


Star wars in UHD doesn't come out till the 27th.

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post #13688 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
Star wars in UHD doesn't come out till the 27th.


The digital release date differs from the disc release date.

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post #13689 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post
The digital release date differs from the disc release date.


According to articles both the UHD disc and 4k digital release is the same day.

With the bd and hd digital release occurring on the 13th.

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post #13690 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
According to articles both the UHD disc and 4k digital release is the same day.

With the bd and hd digital release occurring on the 13th.


The digital is already available on multiple platforms (Vudu, FandangoNow, ITunes) it is only available in UHD on Vudu and FandangoNow. Disney doesn’t do UHD on ITunes due to a pricing disagreement. They don’t delay they UHD digital for a different date.
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post #13691 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by nihilan View Post
Does anyone have their Apple TV hooked up to a recent model Denon AVR? I just got a Denon s730H. I have an Apple TV 4K hooked up to the the media player HDMI port, and an HDMI cable running to a Sony 55x900e.

CEC functions properly except for one thing: it won’t turn the receiver on. I’m using the Apple remote: It will turn the TV and receiver off, it will control the volume, and when I wake the Apple TV it turns on the TV, but the receiver stays off. Any suggestions?


Thanks!


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I have a 930H, but turned off all CEC power controls. It’s a PIA and I’d rather use my Harmony which is more reliable. On your 730H make sure that you’ve set power control to ON, most folks have it set to off (ARC use only).
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post #13692 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post
Thanks for your reply. I've been just googling and there seems to be quite a lot complaints about audio. Like I mentioned above, volume level is lower when Apple TV output PCM. But I felt that upping volume did not make it any more dynamic sounding. I need to do more experiments. What could be causing lower audio level between bitstream and PCM in Apple TV?

My first thought about image softness was also that I have understood Netflix has own video streams for each device but I did not realize there could be such a huge difference in quality, especially considering how powerful device Apple TV is versus WDTV Live. There should not be network related problems. Even my Chromecast (iPad controlling it) connected to Panasonic plasma has flawless Netflix image quality. I would have purchase another Chromecast for my projector but Chromecast does not support 24p output, so that is the only reason options are quite limited and when I saw Apple TV has finally brought 24p output in new TV OS I thought there is finally device that has everything I need but I guess not without serious trade off.
I don’t find there is a loss of dynamics when increasing the volume to compensate for the lower level but I don’t have golden ears. The reason for the lower level is not known. Could be to allow headroom for mixing in system sounds.

In my case my ATV seems as sharp as any other streaming device for Netflix. I would try it with different ATV settings like turning off frame rate matching and force 1080p output and see if it improves. Not that you would want to keep it that way but it would be interesting to see what makes a difference. For example, on my fauxK projector, 1080p content looks sharper when output as 1080p content and displayed at 1080p, rather than upscaled to 4K by the ATV and displayed at fauxK.
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post #13693 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
I have a 930H, but turned off all CEC power controls. It’s a PIA and I’d rather use my Harmony which is more reliable. On your 730H make sure that you’ve set power control to ON, most folks have it set to off (ARC use only).


Thanks. Yeah I have power control set to ON. Eco mode off. Tonight I’ll try resetting all the devices.

It’s always something...


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post #13694 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
Star wars in UHD doesn't come out till the 27th.
Screenshots of StarWars, in my accounts, across the various services. Just an FYI.

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post #13695 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 08:18 AM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leonmckee View Post
Screenshots of StarWars, in my accounts, across the various services. Just an FYI.



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I know the digital hd release came out on the 13th. That's not what we're discussing. I was referring specifically to the digital uhd release. The articles I read said the 27th in addition to the uhd disc.

Reading now it seems some companies paid for early streaming rights of the UHD version. Those being vudu, fandango and Microsoft.

Amazon, google and apple and others do not yet have it in UHD.

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post #13696 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
After a week dealing with constants black screens and signal lost from my two Apple TV 4Ks I decided to send them back to BH Photo for a full refund. I have Certified Premium 6 ft HDMI cables and the signal lost and black screens happens even with 4K SDR so no way I'm going to pay $179 for something that has to be rebooted twice a day. I will check on this thread for updates on the issues and will buy again when the ATV4K is bugs free.
Enrico... I see that you have an Oppo UDP-203 in your sig. Did you happen to have your ATV 4K plugged into the HDMI input of the 203...? If so, the problem could be with the Oppo's input. They have just released a beta firmware patch that specifically addresses the "black screen" dropout. As of this moment, you have to request the patch directly from them.

If this wasn't the case, then your situation is indeed odd. I also have two ATV 4K devices. One is routed through my AV7703 to my LG 65C6 in my HT, the other is connected directly to the LG 55C6 in my living room. I watch both of them frequently and have never experienced a single issue with either device. I also use Monoprice "Certified Premium" cables on both. Both are also 6' between devices. In my HT, since my rack is fairly far way from my display, I use a 10 meter Ruipro "hybrid" cable (highly recommended BTW) between my AVP and display.

My home is also heavily populated by Apple products (and never an issue with any of them), so from one Mac user to another, I'm surprised to hear of this...

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post #13697 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by leonmckee View Post
Screenshots of StarWars, in my accounts, across the various services. Just an FYI.

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Nice collection. Unforgiven is such an awesome movie and in 4K DV it’s even better. I bought another “classic” Close Encounters of the Third Kind (three versions of movie included) in 4K DV, also awesome.

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post #13698 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
I know the digital hd release came out on the 13th. That's not what we're discussing. I was referring specifically to the digital uhd release. The articles I read said the 27th in addition to the uhd disc.

Reading now it seems some companies paid for early streaming rights of the UHD version. Those being vudu, fandango and Microsoft.

Amazon, google and apple and others do not yet have it in UHD.
The first screenshot showed UHD ownership in Vudu. Just wanted to share in case you where looking for the movie in UHD right now.

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post #13699 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
Nice collection. Unforgiven is such an awesome movie and in 4K DV it’s even better. I bought another “classic” Close Encounters of the Third Kind (three versions of movie included) in 4K DV, also awesome.
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post #13700 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post
Do you feel that it is still dynamically compressed even if you crank up the volume?
I would not mind adjusting volume for Apple TV (If I recall correctly my AVR has input based volume buried in its menu) but my first impression was that it still did not sound right when I upped volume.
My initial impressions, frankly, are yes: There appears to be diminished dynamic range compared to the DD+ bitstreams from Vudu, Amazon, etc. This is going through a Yamaha 7810 AVR.

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post #13701 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

However my first impressions was that sound quality, especially dynamic is decreased in Netflix. I had previously WDTV Live and it did output bitstream DD+ in Netflix but Apple TV wants to do decoding by itself and output PCM. I know that should not make any difference but I could swear that audio dynamic was completely lost. Everything sounded quite muted even I upped volume. All special effects sounded compressed. If I switched audio output mode from default best to Dolby Digital all audio dynamic was restored but audio will be down sampled from DD+ to DD so definitely not optimal solution.
My impression is that Netflix does not stream LPCM...only Dolby Digital Plus. So the ATV 4K is converting DD+ to LPCM for output - possibly causing the issues you're hearing. Setting the ATV 4K to Dolby Digital eliminates the conversion. If anyone knows different I'd like to know.

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post #13702 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
I know the digital hd release came out on the 13th. That's not what we're discussing. I was referring specifically to the digital uhd release. The articles I read said the 27th in addition to the uhd disc.

Reading now it seems some companies paid for early streaming rights of the UHD version. Those being vudu, fandango and Microsoft.

Amazon, google and apple and others do not yet have it in UHD.
You're just misinformed (or the articles you are getting your information from are). The digital release (including HD and UHD) was March 13th. The physical release (BD and UHD disc) is March 27th. March 27th will also see the digital "rental" release. This staggered release of digital two weeks earlier than physical is pretty standard now. The movie is already released digitally on iTunes. It is NOT UHD because Disney isn't releasing any movie in UHD on iTunes due to a pricing dispute. It's not because the UHD digital release is the 27th (because it isn't, it's already out).
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post #13703 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
My impression is that Netflix does not stream LPCM...only Dolby Digital Plus. So the ATV 4K is converting DD+ to LPCM for output - possibly causing the issues you're hearing. Setting the ATV 4K to Dolby Digital eliminates the conversion. If anyone knows different I'd like to know.
Netflix does not stream LPCM, they send a 192 kbps Dolby Digital Plus signal with their content.

I believe you're correct about the Apple audio output. Apple TV audio output functionality is certainly not ideal, but it is what it is.

The ATV is a mass market audio/video streaming device and not a high-end AV component, though many us would like it to be.
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post #13704 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Setting the ATV 4K to Dolby Digital eliminates the conversion. If anyone knows different I'd like to know.
Please see the first post.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13705 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Netflix does not stream LPCM, they send a 192 kbps Dolby Digital Plus signal with their content.

I believe you're correct about the Apple audio output. Apple TV audio output functionality is certainly not ideal, but it is what it is.

The ATV is a mass market audio/video streaming device and not a high-end AV component, though many us would like it to be.
What does the 387.70 kbps audio bitstream mean on this HUD screenshot of a Netflix show? Shouldn’t it say 192 kbps per your post? I’m just asking as I don’t know what it means.
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post #13706 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
What does the 387.70 kbps audio bitstream mean on this HUD screenshot of a Netflix show? Shouldn’t it say 192 kbps per your post? I’m just asking as I don’t know what it means.
I was referring to 1080p streams. I don't know what those readings mean. My comments were related to what's being sent for 1080p content, things may have changed for 4K. A 384 bitrate is simply a doubling of the 192 stream but given Netflix's aversion to bandwidth waste, it seems a bit high to me, even for a 4K title. Is there Atmos data in there? I don't have 4K yet so I have no experience with their data streams.

I asked over in the Netflix streaming quality thread. My information may be outdated though I'm fairly certain I'm correct for 1080 content, 4K may very well have a different audio rate.

Last edited by Keenan; 03-21-2018 at 11:23 AM.
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post #13707 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
My impression is that Netflix does not stream LPCM...only Dolby Digital Plus. So the ATV 4K is converting DD+ to LPCM for output - possibly causing the issues you're hearing. Setting the ATV 4K to Dolby Digital eliminates the conversion. If anyone knows different I'd like to know.
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Please see the first post.
You have pointed back to the line you have in your initial post a couple time now that only references that user facing doc but based on the wording, that could possibly only mean that non-AC3 formats are re-encoded and output via that format.

I really don't see any point in the Apple TV taking a E-AC3 stream, decoding and then re-encoding to LPCM to just encode back into AC3 to then bitstream to the AVR to decode again. Particularly when E-AC3 can be directly converted to AC3 without any decoding/re-encoding and retain metadata such as dialnorm.

The last time you mentioned that I started digging through some of the technical documentation on their site but haven't found anything as of yet, so if you happen to have a citation, that would be awesome.

If the Apple TV truly does all that needless decoding and re-encoding, that is a waste and who knows how badly they may be impacting audio quality. It also means that it behaves differently then all the other E-AC3 devices out there, including consoles.
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post #13708 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 01:11 PM
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To me, the ATV4K functions like a Blu-ray player set to decode, instead of bitstream.



When you play a DTS Master HD Blu-ray, and set to LPCM, the Blu-ray player decodes internally and sends out LPCM, which should sound the same as the Blu-ray player sending bitstream to the AVR and it decoding. I leave my AppleTV set to "best quality available" and reduce loud sounds off (dynamic range reduction), therefore it decodes inernally and sends out 2.0 or 5.1 depending on the source format. I do not see why the quality should be any less. In the beginning, all the Amazon app did was send out PCM 2.0, but now I get PCM 5.1 on the appropriate stuff.
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post #13709 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
To me, the ATV4K functions like a Blu-ray player set to decode, instead of bitstream.



When you play a DTS Master HD Blu-ray, and set to LPCM, the Blu-ray player decodes internally and sends out LPCM, which should sound the same as the Blu-ray player sending bitstream to the AVR and it decoding. I leave my AppleTV set to "best quality available" and reduce loud sounds off (dynamic range reduction), therefore it decodes inernally and sends out 2.0 or 5.1 depending on the source format. I do not see why the quality should be any less. In the beginning, all the Amazon app did was send out PCM 2.0, but now I get PCM 5.1 on the appropriate stuff.
Does the LPCM sounds better than DD ? If not, why not setting it to DD ?

I was so happy without HDR...
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post #13710 of 23739 Old 03-21-2018, 01:29 PM
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The quality of HD Audio content is bit for bit identical to the source when using Infuse or MrMc with the Apple TV set to both “best quality available” and reduce loud sounds turned off.

As far as Netflix specifically, no one should be expecting serious audio quality from their streaming. It just isn’t their priority. You’re going to get lossy audio from any and all apps which use the native tvOS video player.

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