Apple TV owners' thread. - Page 485 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14521 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
... but mostly people seem to prefer DV over HDR10. ....
I guess I do too, although it is likely to be largely a placebo effect.

The differences are barely visible when closely examining still frames on two sets side by side, so I doubt that many will be able to tell DV from HDR10 when viewing regular HDR10/DV content on their own set.

At some point it becomes an argument about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, AND can they dance or just stand there....
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post #14522 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
... likely to be largely a placebo effect ... The differences are barely visible
Yes the differences are measurable and visible (at the source). Assuming your video chain preserves those differences the overall psychological effect is a function of how discerning you are and how much you care. Age, physiology, training, interest and practice make you more or less discerning and modulate how much one values discernible differences.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14523 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 11:11 AM
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so DV is working again on 4k sdr, match on/on?
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post #14524 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ Signs point to yes

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14525 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Yes the differences are measurable and visible (at the source). Assuming your video chain preserves those differences the overall psychological effect is a function of how discerning you are and how much you care. Age, physiology, training, interest and practice make you more or less discerning and modulate how much one values discernible differences.
"Measurable" does not always translate into "visible" or "audible" by humans in a home theater setting.

My point is that many of the comparisons are done on still frames, with two monitors side by side, so we need to keep a perspective.

I have not seen ABX tests, but my hunch is that without a direct reference present, the differences on most material may not be significant enough to be noticeable by casual, and even not so casual viewers.

Having said that, I personally find myself susceptible to the hype and would choose DV over HDR10, "just because."
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post #14526 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
"Measurable" does not always translate into "visible" or "audible" by humans in a home theater setting.

My point is that many of the comparisons are done on still frames, with two monitors side by side, so we need to keep a perspective.

I have not seen ABX tests, but my hunch is that without a direct reference present, the differences on most material may not be significant enough to be noticeable by casual, and even not so casual viewers.

Having said that, I personally find myself susceptible to the hype and would choose DV over HDR10, "just because."
Probably the best "real world" test would be via a Dolby Vision UHD disc and player. No conversions since DV is an additional layer on top of the required HDR10 standard. Most DV players will let you force HDR10 instead of their prefered DV.

I've tried Netflix at HDR10 on my Roku versus DV on my display's built in DV and to my eye DV looks better.
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post #14527 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 03:14 PM
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Not had any of the Netflix DV content issues everyone’s talking about.

Anyone else had audio delay issues with DV content only on best audio available setting?

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post #14528 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 03:55 PM
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Anyone else had audio delay issues with DV content only on best audio available setting?
Yes
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post #14529 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by naustin View Post
Probably the best "real world" test would be via a Dolby Vision UHD disc and player. No conversions since DV is an additional layer on top of the required HDR10 standard. Most DV players will let you force HDR10 instead of their prefered DV.

I've tried Netflix at HDR10 on my Roku versus DV on my display's built in DV and to my eye DV looks better.
Since calibrating HDR10 and DV are two different processes with different test patterns and different "choices" it is very difficult to get a level playing field.

Assuming accurate instrumentation, though, the only different would likely be in the highlights, ie, how the tone mapping differs, in my experience.
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post #14530 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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My point is that many of the comparisons are done on still frames, with two monitors side by side, so we need to keep a perspective.
I don't know what that means but you can't compare photos on a web site to video. Using Vincent as our example he takes care but advises that ABL limiters and static image detectors make photos difficult and of course all of this is an SDR approximation of HDR. He does say DV is better than HDR10 and provides an objective basis for that impression.
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I have not seen ABX tests, but my hunch is that without a direct reference present, the differences on most material may not be significant enough to be noticeable by casual, and even not so casual viewer.
I don't understand ABX without a "reference" but since DV is objectively better* other criteria come into play. If the cost of DV was twice the competitor(s) we might say where's the return on investment but it's not.

*The DV grade has more information from the creators. The fact that some/many people may not be prepared to appreciate that doesn't negate it.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14531 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
I guess I do too, although it is likely to be largely a placebo effect.

The differences are barely visible when closely examining still frames on two sets side by side, so I doubt that many will be able to tell DV from HDR10 when viewing regular HDR10/DV content on their own set.

At some point it becomes an argument about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, AND can they dance or just stand there....
I agree, placebo big time. To me if you talk to the pro calibrators they will tell you that if DV and HDR are calibrated they should produce indistinguishable results when the image is within the displays capabilities. Also look at all the issues devices (TVs and streamers) have had with DV. Sure they will eventually get it right, but I have yet to watch anything where I compared DV to HDR and said “wow DV looks better”. Personally I prefer HDR I have found it 100% reliable vs. the various DV issues.
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post #14532 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 04:28 PM
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so DV is working again on 4k sdr, match on/on?
on mine it is now

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post #14533 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree, placebo big time. To me if you talk to the pro calibrators they will tell you that if DV and HDR are calibrated they should produce indistinguishable results when the image is within the displays capabilities.
No reputable professional would say that. In both examples below you should watch the entire video.

This is an older LG comparison. While you might prefer one over the other they are obviously clearly distinguishable. youtu.be/voePq29-U6M?t=30m15s

Here's a key bit of an HDR10 to DV comparison that Vincent did this month after Sony released their DV update. youtu.be/fzrwvJsLIho?t=5m8s.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14534 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 05:33 PM
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No reputable professional would say that. In both examples below you should watch the entire video.

This is an older LG comparison. While you might prefer one over the other they are obviously clearly distinguishable. youtu.be/voePq29-U6M?t=30m15s

Here's a key bit of an HDR10 to DV comparison that Vincent did this month after Sony released their DV update. youtu.be/fzrwvJsLIho?t=5m8s.
I will watch the videos later, but I stated within the displays capabilities. To me a properly calibrated TV and picture mode should faithfully reproduce the source as intended without any alternation. DV has the ability for the TV to adjust to the TVs capabilities or limitations where static meta data can not. I may not be explaining it correctly, but D-Nice and I were discussing this when he calibrated my TV. Yes DV does 12 bit, but when I have a 12 bit TV I will worry about it.

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post #14535 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 05:34 PM
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I agree, placebo big time. To me if you talk to the pro calibrators they will tell you that if DV and HDR are calibrated they should produce indistinguishable results when the image is within the displays capabilities. Also look at all the issues devices (TVs and streamers) have had with DV. Sure they will eventually get it right, but I have yet to watch anything where I compared DV to HDR and said “wow DV looks better”. Personally I prefer HDR I have found it 100% reliable vs. the various DV issues.
Um, nope. HDTV Test has already put two identical displays (pro calibrated) against each other HDR10 vs DV. DV image preserves more detail, it was easy to notice. The dimmer the display, the more benefit DV will be.

Now this doesnt mean HDR10 looks bad, it doesnt. But the advantages can be seen. The details you are not seeing on HDR10 aren't going to be WOW, but they are there.

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post #14536 of 23716 Old 04-18-2018, 09:43 PM
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Guess that I should watch those videos. The older ones with the 2017 LG OLED showed minimal difference when using the adaptive HDR setting on HDR10 content. Combine that with the fact that calibrating hdr10 is “easier” and some people were getting better results that way.

But times change and it sounds like things are different now versus late 2017.
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post #14537 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 04:46 AM
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If you have a Sony like I do, you only cal SDR, and it maps SDR white balance to the Gamut, HDR10 and Dolby Vision . It is really cool and easy to calibrate.

Like I said, it is not wow, but we finally have proof it is doing what it is supposed to. I think they sat two new Sony LCD's side by side, so even with the 1400 nits they had it still helped with specular highlights.
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post #14538 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 05:54 AM
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Anyone here with a Denon s730h and having issues with dv? I cannot get it to work on my Denon it worked fine with an older onkyo. If I go into setup on the Denon and switch from standard 4K to enhanced it says that my display does not support 4K 4:2:2 hdr which it does. If I plug the Apple TV directly into my tv it works fine.

I’ve even purchased the expensive belkin cables Apple is selling. I’m leaning towards this being a Denon issue but I’m not sure if it’s my unit specifically or if it’s a wider Denon/Apple problem?

Just a side note hdr in general(hdr 10) works on my Samsung uhd player I have not tried streaming apps but I’m sure if a disc works Netflix etc should also work.
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Guess that I should watch those videos. The older ones with the 2017 LG OLED showed minimal difference when using the adaptive HDR setting on HDR10 content.
That may still the case but if you want to compare versions of dynamic HDR I think that should be made clear. I think most people use HDR to connote plain HDR10 not HDR10 with unknown/unknowable post-processing.

Of course if we're talking about image fidelity it would be surprising if an automated system like LG's "Enhanced" HDR10/HLG (or HDR10+) matched a colorist graded DV master.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14540 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone here with a Denon s730h and having issues with dv? I cannot get it to work on my Denon it worked fine with an older onkyo. If I go into setup on the Denon and switch from standard 4K to enhanced it says that my display does not support 4K 4:2:2 hdr which it does.
I'd suggest trying [email protected] and alternate inputs. E.g. the front port on my 4300 only supports 300MHz. Failing that the Denon 2017 thread should be able to provide some advice.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14541 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 06:47 AM
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I'd suggest trying [email protected] and alternate inputs. E.g. the front port on my 4300 only supports 300MHz. Failing that the Denon 2017 thread should be able to provide some advice.
I was able to get 1080p Dolby vision working. I’d like to hear from someone who has this peticular receiver. Does it work for you?
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I was able to get 1080p Dolby vision working. I’d like to hear from someone who has this peticular receiver. Does it work for you?


I have a 930H and have had no issues with DV between my ATV4K and B7 (outside of raised black DV issue occasionally). The only thing I did was set to 4K enhanced. I’m currently using Monoprice Ultra Slim Premium Certified cables.
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post #14543 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 07:22 AM
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The Infuse Plex integration is different than MRMC/Plex I haven’t decided which I like better.

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post #14544 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 08:06 AM
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That may still the case but if you want to compare versions of dynamic HDR I think that should be made clear. I think most people use HDR to connote plain HDR10 not HDR10 with unknown/unknowable post-processing.
I'm not sure I understand the distinction.

Near as I can tell, every display doing HDR10 has to do custom, unknown/unknowable tone mapping. Or they simply clip highlights above their peak output capabilities, which is another kind of tone mapping (a bad kind, imo). Since there are no consumer HDR10 displays that can output 4000 nits, they all have to do something with highlight content on titles with content at those levels. That "something" is unknowable post-processing, unless it is simply clipping, from what I have seen.

If there is a TV doing it differently, according to a generic spec, I would be interested to know about it. I readily admit that I have not kept up with all the CES announcements.

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Of course if we're talking about image fidelity it would be surprising if an automated system like LG's "Enhanced" HDR10/HLG (or HDR10+) matched a colorist graded DV master.
I agree 100% assuming:
  1. the chain for both is well calibrated (eg, DV calibration turns out to be less flexible and harder than HDR10 in some cases),
  2. the content is mastered well (eg, not the DV version of Blade Runner on iTunes) and
  3. the chain is functioning correctly (eg, not playing DV on a non-updated Oppo, into some Sony TV's -- if that is even possible).
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I'm trying the week trial of Infuse Pro and have noticed a few things:
  • When creating the .mkv files, the program seems to be making two copies of each episode or rather the BD contains two copies of each episode, why could this be?
  • When watching the episodes, all of them are starting with subtitles On.
  • When going through the episode list on Infuse Pro it shows 1080p as shown on first image but when watching the actual episode and then swiping down, it doesn't indicate HD as shown on 2nd image, why is this?
I ended up purchasing Infuse and I'm loving it so far. Does the app on the ATV4K get updated automatically or do we need to update it ourselves manually? I hear 5.7 is out so I was wondering. The last time I checked I was still at 5.6.

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post #14546 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 09:30 AM
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I ended up purchasing Infuse and I'm loving it so far. Does the app on the ATV4K get updated automatically or do we need to update it ourselves manually? I hear 5.7 is out so I was wondering. The last time I checked I was still at 5.6.
I believe the Pro annual subscription covers you for all of the releases as long as you subscribe whereas buying Infuse Pro 5 only covers you for 5.x and they should happen automatically, although you can always trigger them by visiting the App Store and checking for updates
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I ended up purchasing Infuse and I'm loving it so far. Does the app on the ATV4K get updated automatically or do we need to update it ourselves manually? I hear 5.7 is out so I was wondering. The last time I checked I was still at 5.6.


Auto upgrade.
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post #14548 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 10:06 AM
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I have a 930H and have had no issues with DV between my ATV4K and B7 (outside of raised black DV issue occasionally). The only thing I did was set to 4K enhanced. I’m currently using Monoprice Ultra Slim Premium Certified cables.
It has to be some issue with the receiver. I have not tried my Xbox one x to see if hdr is working with that.
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post #14549 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 10:13 AM
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It has to be some issue with the receiver. I have not tried my Xbox one x to see if hdr is working with that.


What TV do you have? Are you able to get HDR10/DV to trigger when you bypass the AVR? You need to leave the Denon on 4K enhanced, otherwise HDR won’t work properly. Have you enabled the “enhanced” (whatever your TV calls it) mode on the HDMI port there (TV) as well?
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post #14550 of 23716 Old 04-19-2018, 10:18 AM
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I have a Vizio p series from 2016. 4K enhanced mode is on on the Denon and uhd full color is enabled on the tv. I can get hdr via my Samsung uhd player. And yes if I bypass the Denon Dolby vision works.
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