Apple TV owners' thread. - Page 781 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23401 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by legionow112 View Post
Public beta is available for the braves ones to check how 24Hz is playing


It’s been over 2 years lol. I don’t really look at software updates with any hope that they’ll fix this issue.


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post #23402 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
no idea, but with the latest firmware(not beta) I'm having all sort of problems.



-flashing on dark parts
-washed out colors when you play any DV title in HDR
-some titles on Amazon Prime won't play in HDR
-not related to the latest firmware but I really hate the fact that this device STILL cant play 24p content properly.
I've been complaining about the lack of 24hz playback for ages. In my last testing, 23.976hz media was fine, but 24.000hz playback was not. I assume nothing has changed there?
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post #23403 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 06:18 PM
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I've been complaining about the lack of 24hz playback for ages. In my last testing, 23.976hz media was fine, but 24.000hz playback was not. I assume nothing has changed there?
Nothing has changed. I just installed the public TVOS 13 beta and it still behaves the same. In that Netflix test patterns 24p Episode 2 title once you see the first glitch you can see them easily repeatedly at the ~42s mark regular as clockwork. Note that the glitch position moves anticlockwise on the circle about 5 degrees every 42s, once it is in the bottom half of the screen it is much harder to see because the motion of the dot is already a bit jerky there. When you've spotted it once if you keep looking at more or less the same position on the screen, with an eye on the clock also for the 42s interval, it is really easy to spot. A complete revolution takes 6s, so you'll see it every 7th revolution once you see it for the first time.

For what it is worth I changed the region of my AppleTV to US (from UK) and match frame rate behaves no differently from what I can see for 24p content - it is still matched to 23.976Hz output.

I also tested with frame rate matching disabled and the AppleTV set to 60Hz (which actually outputs 59.94Hz). With it disabled the glitch cannot be seen at all obviously, though of course all 23.976/24p motion suffers when configured like this.

At 24Hz (23.976Hz) output if I enable the frame interpolation engine in the projector it smooths out the frame skip quite substantially - it loses the hard edgedness of the frame skip. Still observable though.
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post #23404 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 06:42 PM
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I'm having an issue with MrMC on the Apple TV 4k in that my movie library won't update when clicking on "update library". I reinstalled MrMC and the library update function worked the first few times then it stopped working.
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post #23405 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave3000 View Post
I'm having an issue with MrMC on the Apple TV 4k in that my movie library won't update when clicking on "update library". I reinstalled MrMC and the library update function worked the first few times then it stopped working.


You’re better off asking on their forum honestly.
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post #23406 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 10:48 PM
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Has anyone experienced any problems watching Too Old to Die Young (UHD version) using the Amazon Prime app? On most of the episodes I'd get a little hiccup where it seemed to skip a frame once in a while, it's easily noticeable during a lot of the slow panning shots. For some reason I didn't see it in the last couple episodes though. Could this be related to the frame rate issue I see being discussed the past few pages? I've had the quick start option on.
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post #23407 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
No. Just that there’s some kind of workaround for iTunes material which involves disabling QuickStart. This seems to result in a 23.976hz source being used though rather than an ability to play 24hz.
So, I'm jumping into the 24fps fray a little bit late, but some notes:

All Apple film-sourced content is encoded at 23.976fps (you can see this is you download one of your iTunes movies and play it back in QuickTime Player). The iTunes-downloadable version happens to be the same version you'll buffer if you turn off QuickStart in Apple TV's settings…but you shouldn't do that. That setting remains for users who have sub-5Mbps network connections and need to force buffering to get consistent HD quality. If your connection is faster than 5Mbps and you want 4K, HDR, and Atmos, leave QuickStart on and never touch it again.

Once QuickStart is on, Apple uses HLS to stream the content. This stream is still encoded at 23.976fps, and can adjust between multiple quality tiers as bandwidth allows. If you're seeing frame skips when QuickStart is on, it's more likely a streaming glitch than a 23.976 vs. 24p frame mismatch. Even with high bandwidth connections, momentary glitches show up as throughput fluctuates, and 4K/HDR movie can stress residential networking by demanding a stable 35Mbps. If turning QuickStart off "fixes the problem", it's likely because the Apple TV is buffering a fixed-bandwidth version, thus avoiding these momentary network hiccups. (If you're seeing this on locally-encoded source material like ripped Blu-rays etc., it's hard for me to diagnose without knowing which codecs, bitrates, and optimizations are at play.)

I realize that 24fps and 23.976 Hz are distinct, and that it's possible that some media out there (maybe even some Netflix stuff) is encoded at exactly 24fps. But Apple TV doesn't make a distinction between 23.976 and 24fps, because the overwhelming majority of professionally encoded films are encoded at 23.976 (even on Blu-ray). So, Apple always syncs with your TV at 23.976Hz, even if the UI uses the colloquial "24" integer for simplicity.

All of that said, if you have a modern, highish-end TV, chances are you don't need to switch the Apple TV to 24fps (23.976Hz) mode at all…you can just let Apple TV send its default 60p (59.94 if you want to get technical)…it'll map the 24fps into the 60p output (3:2), which the TV will notice and decode accordingly, ultimately rendering a literal 24fps. That would effectively reconcile any 23.976/24Hz variation (however rare) that you run into.
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post #23408 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 11:23 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Nah it’s definitely not a buffering issue and it’s important that this is noted. Buffering would cause pauses rather than skips. More significantly, it affects the same few titles (e.g. prisoners, eyes wide shut, Lincoln) and it’s present every time I watch them and has been replicated by users world wide on the same few titles. Give them a go and I’m sure you’ll see it too! Meanwhile, 2160p Dolby Vision titles are streaming without a hitch with QuickStart on.

Turning QuickStart off has side effects as you say and I would never leave it off due to its impact on UHD titles but it’s currently the only way to watch these films. Also, for what its worth, I have an 65” E6 OLED and it does not support extraction of 23.976hz content from a 60hz non interlaced stream. I accept there are newer TVs available now but it’s not exactly ancient or ****.


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post #23409 of 23708 Old 06-24-2019, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bytor View Post
Has anyone experienced any problems watching Too Old to Die Young (UHD version) using the Amazon Prime app? On most of the episodes I'd get a little hiccup where it seemed to skip a frame once in a while, it's easily noticeable during a lot of the slow panning shots. For some reason I didn't see it in the last couple episodes though. Could this be related to the frame rate issue I see being discussed the past few pages? I've had the quick start option on.
I just checked and Too Old to Die Young (UHD) on Prime is 24fps and not 23.976fps according to my Lumagen watching the output of the well-behaved Sony UBP-X800, at least the first and last episodes are. So you were likely seeing the same issue with the mismatch between the AppleTV output and the source content. I can't explain why you wouldn't have seen it on "the last couple of episodes" unless by that you mean not actually the last episode and just the last episodes you watched. It would be very unlikely for some to not be encoded this way though. Maybe the shooting style is different with less pans for those episodes, no idea (I've not watched it).

For what it is worth Quickstart is an option that I believe only Apple sourced content takes advantage of, so I don't think it is implicated in anything other than Itunes downloads. It's not even clear that is 24fps related at the moment.
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post #23410 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I just checked and Too Old to Die Young (UHD) on Prime is 24fps and not 23.976fps according to my Lumagen watching the output of the well-behaved Sony UBP-X800, at least the first and last episodes are. So you were likely seeing the same issue with the mismatch between the AppleTV output and the source content. I can't explain why you wouldn't have seen it on "the last couple of episodes" unless by that you mean not actually the last episode and just the last episodes you watched. It would be very unlikely for some to not be encoded this way though. Maybe the shooting style is different with less pans for those episodes, no idea (I've not watched it).

For what it is worth Quickstart is an option that I believe only Apple sourced content takes advantage of, so I don't think it is implicated in anything other than Itunes downloads. It's not even clear that is 24fps related at the moment.
My OPPO 203 is seeing 23.97 for this title when fed from the Apple device to the HDMI In port. The same when the Amazon Fire TV Stick is plugged into the port. I only watched about a min of the first episode.

(By the way, add me to the list that would like to see Apple add 24 fps to their output framerate capability.)
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post #23411 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
All Apple film-sourced content is encoded at 23.976fps
Without having some insider info, or having downloaded every title, how can you know this for sure?
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Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
Once QuickStart is on, Apple uses HLS to stream the content. This stream is still encoded at 23.976fps
Source? It isn't actually possible to tell what the rate is for these titles because the information isn't displayed in the HUD..
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Once QuickStart is on, Apple uses HLS to stream the content. This stream is still encoded at 23.976fps, and can adjust between multiple quality tiers as bandwidth allows. If you're seeing frame skips when QuickStart is on, it's more likely a streaming glitch than a 23.976 vs. 24p frame mismatch. Even with high bandwidth connections, momentary glitches show up as throughput fluctuates, and 4K/HDR movie can stress residential networking by demanding a stable 35Mbps. If turning QuickStart off "fixes the problem", it's likely because the Apple TV is buffering a fixed-bandwidth version, thus avoiding these momentary network hiccups.
I might agree if other 4K titles I have purchased didn't play just fine at much higher bitrates than the one example failing title I have purchased just for testing this (Prisoners). It's not a streaming issue, unless those titles in particular happen to be stored on a rubbish server, and the 4K ones are stored on a good one... It's also not certain that it is the 24p issue (I have some doubt) but there is clearly something that affects this content when QS is enabled.
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and that it's possible that some media out there (maybe even some Netflix stuff) is encoded at exactly 24fps
It's not a matter of "possible". It is well known fact, there is quite a lot of it out there, and more all the time. See some of the examples of recent new releases on Amazon (Too old to die young) and Netflix (Triple frontier) that are 24p. Given that the only reason 23.976 ever happened was to avoid a particular issue in the now basically obsolete NTSC colour transmission system, the trend is going to be in the direction of more, not less, true 24p content.
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All of that said, if you have a modern, highish-end TV, chances are you don't need to switch the Apple TV to 24fps (23.976Hz) mode at all…you can just let Apple TV send its default 60p (59.94 if you want to get technical)…it'll map the 24fps into the 60p output (3:2), which the TV will notice and decode accordingly, ultimately rendering a literal 24fps. That would effectively reconcile any 23.976/24Hz variation (however rare) that you run into.
Doing this might remove / minimize the effect, but you're also quite likely to end up with some element of soap opera effect. For many folk that makes that approach a no-go.
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post #23412 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
My OPPO 203 is seeing 23.97 for this title when fed from the Apple device to the HDMI In port. The same when the Amazon Fire TV Stick is plugged into the port. I only watched about a min of the first episode.

(By the way, add me to the list that would like to see Apple add 24 fps to their output framerate capability.)
Ironically Amazon's first FireTV box that I had was also limited to 23.976p only...
We can certainly hope.
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post #23413 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pixelknave View Post
All Apple film-sourced content is encoded at 23.976fps ...
...
All of that said, if you have a modern, highish-end TV, chances are you don't need to switch the Apple TV to 24fps (23.976Hz) mode at all…you can just let Apple TV send its default 60p (59.94 if you want to get technical)…it'll map the 24fps into the 60p output (3:2), which the TV will notice and decode accordingly, ultimately rendering a literal 24fps. That would effectively reconcile any 23.976/24Hz variation (however rare) that you run into.
Do you have clear evidence or are these just your opinions? In any case the recent 24 vs. 23.9 conversation isn't about iTunes.
I don't understand what you're saying in the second bit above because of this: "you don't need to switch the Apple TV to 24fps (23.976Hz) mode". I think your point is that if you force NTSC a 24fps "movie" will processed by telecine and then reversed by the display. What happens to 23.9 content?

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #23414 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
W It is well known fact, there is quite a lot of it out there, and more all the time. See some of the examples of recent new releases on Amazon (Too old to die young) and Netflix (Triple frontier) that are 24p.

Features are shot at a rate that suits the customer as modulated by post considerations. So some items will be shot at 24.0 and converted in distribution to 23.9 and some items will be shot in 23.9 and converted in distribution to 24.0.

Netflix requires all original content to be delivered in 4K DoVi. They convert that as needed for the client software. They should do the same with 24.0.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #23415 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 11:59 AM
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Because Apple don’t support it? :-/


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post #23416 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Features are shot at a rate that suits the customer as modulated by post considerations. So some items will be shot at 24.0 and converted in distribution to 23.9 and some items will be shot in 23.9 and converted in distribution to 24.0.

Netflix requires all original content to be delivered in 4K DoVi. They convert that as needed for the client software. They should do the same with 24.0.
Netflix also require all original content and licensed content to be delivered in the native framerate it was shot or edited in ( https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.c...cations-v3-2-1 , https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.c...ification-v8-1 ) . If they were to convert 24p native content to 23.976p they would have to unpack all the 48k surround and stereo sound mixes, fractionally sample rate convert and pitch correct them (never a particularly good idea) and then re-encode them to the various surround formats. Or if they had the raw discrete channels, just do the fractional sample rate conversion / pitch correction and the re-packing.

It's much better to just have the player play the original source right.
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post #23417 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I just checked and Too Old to Die Young (UHD) on Prime is 24fps and not 23.976fps according to my Lumagen watching the output of the well-behaved Sony UBP-X800, at least the first and last episodes are. So you were likely seeing the same issue with the mismatch between the AppleTV output and the source content. I can't explain why you wouldn't have seen it on "the last couple of episodes" unless by that you mean not actually the last episode and just the last episodes you watched. It would be very unlikely for some to not be encoded this way though. Maybe the shooting style is different with less pans for those episodes, no idea (I've not watched it).

For what it is worth Quickstart is an option that I believe only Apple sourced content takes advantage of, so I don't think it is implicated in anything other than Itunes downloads. It's not even clear that is 24fps related at the moment.
Thanks for checking that. And by the last couple of episodes I did mean episode 9 and 10. I was watching for the frame skips since they were so obvious in the first 8 episodes but don't remember seeing any in episode 9 and 10. But yeah, maybe the shooting style was different with less slow pans so they weren't as noticeable.

There's really nothing I can do to fix this though? I tried watching the show with the internal Amazon Prime app on my TV (Sony Z9D) but I get grey bars so that's no good either.
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post #23418 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bytor View Post
Thanks for checking that. And by the last couple of episodes I did mean episode 9 and 10. I was watching for the frame skips since they were so obvious in the first 8 episodes but don't remember seeing any in episode 9 and 10. But yeah, maybe the shooting style was different with less slow pans so they weren't as noticeable.

There's really nothing I can do to fix this though? I tried watching the show with the internal Amazon Prime app on my TV (Sony Z9D) but I get grey bars so that's no good either.
Different player is the only option at the moment I believe to really fix it. As I mentioned my Sony UBP-X800 does switch to 24p for this content.

You could always try setting your output to not match framerate, and your refresh to 59.94 (shown as 60 in the AppleTV UI) and see if you dislike that more or less than getting the full dropped frame glitches every 42s. It might be the lesser of two evils. There will still be dropped frames but they are much shorter and you'll never actually completely drop a frame like happens with 23.976 vs 24p - it just drops one of the duplicated frames resulting from the 2-3 pulldown to output at 59.94.
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post #23419 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 12:35 PM
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Netflix requires all original content to be delivered in 4K DoVi.
Since when? I can think of three different Netflix originals that are 1080p DV sources. Love Death + Robots as it would be prohibitively expensive to render out at 4K, latest Cloverfield, and their 3D animated film that I always forget the name of for the same reason as Love Death + Robots.
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post #23420 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 12:39 PM
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Since when? I can think of three different Netflix originals that are 1080p DV sources. Love Death + Robots as it would be prohibitively expensive to render out at 4K, latest Cloverfield, and their 3D animated film that I always forget the name of for the same reason as Love Death + Robots.
Indeed, there was an article recently about why Netflix thought 1080p HDR was more important than 4k.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...y-more-for-it/
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post #23421 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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It's much better to just have the player play the original source right.
Your use of "original source" is misleading. Anything that comes out of the distribution pipeline is an "original source" and that's whatever the customer orders/mandates.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #23422 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Since when?
Sorry about that. I should have said UHD/HDR is (generally) required to be DoVi.
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post #23423 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 01:38 PM
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Your use of "original source" is misleading. Anything that comes out of the distribution pipeline is an "original source" and that's whatever the customer orders/mandates.
As I linked, Netflix (the customer here) asks that this be the original shot in or edited in framerate.
Unless you are talking about you or I as the customer, in which case why would we ever want to specify pulling a non-native framerate version of the content with SRC'd audio? Oh, to work around a device that should have supported the correct rates in the first place...
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post #23424 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 01:39 PM
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Sorry about that. I should have said UHD/HDR is (generally) required to be DoVi.
Gotcha, yeah the DV requirement is certainly part of their of their HDR workflow, it just happens to be independent of resolution.
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post #23425 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
If they were to convert 24p native content to 23.976p they would have to unpack all the 48k surround and stereo sound mixes, fractionally sample rate convert and pitch correct them (never a particularly good idea) and then re-encode them to the various surround formats. Or if they had the raw discrete channels, just do the fractional sample rate conversion / pitch correction and the re-packing.
In modern post software there's a button for the above process. It's happens regularly.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #23426 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
In modern post software there's a button for the above process. It's happens regularly.
Considering the arguments we've had in the past on the subject of the standards compliance disaster zone that is the in-the-box conversion of DV to HDR10 on the ATV4k (when the HDR10 files are actually there and exist already), it is mildly humorous that you are advocating this approach for 24p vs 23.976p.
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post #23427 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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As I linked, Netflix (the customer here) asks that this be the original shot in or edited in framerate.
I'm talking about the "distribution" pipeline. Some customers (e.g. a film festival) are at the end of the theatrical distribution pipeline and want 24.0. Some customers (a BD company) are at the end of the US home distribution pipeline and want 23.9. Some customers (our favorite Netflix) are in the distribution business themselves -- they will accept any common format and have the ability to produce what they want. Perhaps Apple shouldn't expect them to do the right thing but they do. Or they don't care because it's not their target demographic.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #23428 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I'm talking about the "distribution" pipeline. Some customers (e.g. a film festival) are at the end of the theatrical distribution pipeline and want 24.0. Some customers (a BD company) are at the end of the US home distribution pipeline and want 23.9. Some customers (our favorite Netflix) are in the distribution business themselves -- they will accept any common format and have the ability to produce what they want. Perhaps Apple shouldn't expect them to do the right thing but they do. Or they don't care because it's not their target demographic.
Except Apple are also doing this in the Itunes store.
It took me 2 minutes to find something in the Itunes Library that is 24.00fps...
Highlander 30th Anniversary Edition; disable quickstart and you will see the "nominal frame rate" is 24.00. Whereas for other titles (such as Prisoners discussed elsewhere) the nominal is declared as 23.98 for the non-quickstart version.
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post #23429 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Except Apple are also doing this in the Itunes store.
It took me 2 minutes to find something in the Itunes Library that is 24.00fps
"Or they don't care because it's not their target demographic."
I predict Apple will support 24.0 right after they re-enable bitstream pass-through.

I encourage people that expected Match Frame Rate to mean 24.0 content would be sent as 24.0 (or that Apple would finally re-enable pass-through) to return their Apple TV to the place of purchase.

If only we had some sort of Authority that established Advertising Standards to force Apple to change their scandalous advertising ways.
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post #23430 of 23708 Old 06-25-2019, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
"Or they don't care because it's not their target demographic."
I predict Apple will support 24.0 right after they re-enable bitstream pass-through.

I encourage people that expected Match Frame Rate to mean 24.0 content would be sent as 24.0 (or that Apple would finally re-enable pass-through) to return their Apple TV to the place of purchase.

If only we had some sort of Authority that established Advertising Standards to force Apple to change their scandalous advertising ways.

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VIZIO M70-D3 Calibration SDR/HDR FW 3.4.8.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post55595700
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