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post #6871 of 27623 Old 10-16-2017, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Confirmed. Just checked out the developer's HUD on my ATV4 (not ATV5 4k) which is ONLY a 1080p device (of course) and iTunes 1080p content is now adaptive streaming.

I have a few ATV3 devices around. I'll have to give those a try and see if they have been "updated" to adaptive streaming, too.

Dang, this is a disappointment.

Wouldn't it be funny if the best quality iTunes 1080p content experience was with a lowly ATV3 or downloading first to a Mac at this point?

And wouldn't that make it even more frustrating that you cannot download UHD content, to ensure a consistent data rate?

(these are both rhetorical questions)
Update: I didn't know about the new feature/option in the Settings -> Apps -> itunes called "Quick Start". If one turns that off then 1080p acts like before (ie, it buffers until it can play it as full resolution).
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post #6872 of 27623 Old 10-16-2017, 09:21 PM
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Was doing some more testing tonight and noticed: Apple has stopped offering up HDR 1080p for movies ported over from MA. They are now regular old SDR 1080p.

Last edited by nathan_h; 10-16-2017 at 09:43 PM.
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post #6873 of 27623 Old 10-16-2017, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
You are right. There are versions of DV in places other than UHD BR that do not require HDR10 base layer. However, Apple (the subject of this thread) has chosen DV profile 5, which includes a generic HDR layer plus DV metadata on top.
I assume your interpretation on DV Profile is based on this PDF: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...2-9-170601.pdf

I read posts before discussing Profile 5 and what it means and they seemed to say that includes a generic HDR layer but when I looked at this PDF I can't reach the same conclusion. Please feel free to correct my interpretations.

For DV Profile 5, relevant details are
BL signal cross-compatibility ID: 0
Bitstream Profile name: dvhe.stn
VUI: 2, 2, 2, 1 [Probably Irrelevant - EOTF, color primaries, matrix, and range respectively.]

Now to break this down, BL signal cross-compatibility ID is 0, which means "none, but ITP and IPTc4 color spaces are supported". I am not entirely sure what they are saying with this ID # and maybe this is the key point here but
Quote:
An identification number that can be used as a shorthand for a particular form of a base-layer sub-stream that can be decoded to a signal compliant with a particular set of standards
I interpret this as the ability to decode to a different standard like HDR10, SDR or Blu-ray HDR etc. Note that the ID# is not 1, which means CTA HDR10 and as far as I am concerned, since the BL signal cross-compatibility ID is 0 and not 1, there is no HDR layer.

The Bitstream profile name dvhe.stn can be broken down as such
dv (irrelevant)
he = HEVC
[number_of_layers] s = Dolby Vision stream has a single layer (not relevant AFAIK) [Though in this paper https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...ormat-v1.1.pdf it mentions that a Single layer is not SDR-compliant, which is irrelevant but interesting I suppose...]
[bit_depth] t = bit depth of 10
[cross-compatibility] n = the Dolby Vision stream is not compatible with other standards for dynamic range, but uses Dolby Vision ITP or IPTc4 color space.

The last part is the most important and this is why I think Profile 5 does not have a base HDR layer. See the "cross-compatibility" value is not "h". If it was, the PDF says

Quote:
h indicates that the Dolby Vision stream is compatible with CTA HDR10, as defined by the static metadata. CTA HDR10 is a 10-bit signal that leverages ST.2084, ST.2086, CTA-861- G, 4:2:0, and a BT.2020 container with P3 color primaries.
Thus, I don't think that there is a base HDR layer based on the Profile 5 spec.

Now, iTunes may still deliver a HDR layer but as far as this Profile spec is concerned, it probably doesn't. What does the Dev info panel for the aTV 4K show for DV movie content on a HDR10 TV? Or is that muddled by the aTV's always HDR mode?

Curious to hear your thoughts!

PS: On a side note, The other cross-compability values are interesting, e.g., "r" = backward compatible and DV stream can be decoded to SDR signal and "b" indicates that the Dolby Vision stream is Blu-ray Disc backward compatible (Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc high dynamic range).

Last edited by ZephyrForza79; 10-16-2017 at 10:23 PM.
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post #6874 of 27623 Old 10-16-2017, 11:41 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullwyf View Post
When brought in via MoviesAnywhere from Vudu or something, they list themselves as 4K HDR (when iTunes has that item in 4K HDR), and they play with HDR, but the resolution is closer to HD (instead of 4K). Both the developer HUD (natural size) and the swipe down display while playing show that it is playing HD and HDR, not 4K and HDR.


It seems that when I use the swipe down function when playing a movie, the description says the movie is HD and does not show a 4k logo, even though the main screen with the movie information shows a 4k logo. This seems to be the case even with movies I purchased on iTunes in HD that were upgraded to 4k, such as the Star Trek reboot movies. I also recently purchased Star Trek II directors cut in 4k from itunes and swiping down during playback only lists HD.

Can anyone confirm that when they swipe down during movie playback, the description does not show 4k for them on their 4k purchases?

Last edited by trekjewel; 10-17-2017 at 01:01 AM.
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post #6875 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So I just went direct to the 77G7 and bypassed the receiver. Sure enough I now had the option for DV, which I then switched to. But here it got interesting.

I had the expected lip synch issues (been there done that with other streaming players), but having just watched Mind Hunter in HDR10 on the ATV, I now rewatched some of the same scenes on the same 4K ATV, but now in DV.

The problem with the DV version, was elevated black levels. I needed to drop the brightness to 47 to render the black bars black, otherwise they were a dark and visible gray. At the default brightness of 50 that I had been using for the HDR10 version, the HDR10 picture had considerable pop with excellent shadow detail. At that same brightness level of 50, the DV version, aside from the elevated black levels of the top & bottom bars, had a somewhat washed out appearance.

Dropping the brightness to 47, although bringing back the HDR10 black levels, created an obvious loss of shadow detail. I'll experiment more, but I actually prefer at this point, the HDR10 version which was excellent.
Yep my experience exactly, I've always found I've needed to drop the brightness (down to 48 in my case) with DV content otherwise as you say it looks washed out, check out The OA on netflix it looks completely wrong with the brightness on 50, same with Bladerunner on ATV etc etc

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post #6876 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekjewel View Post
It seems that when I use the swipe down function when playing a movie, the description says the movie is HD and does not show a 4k logo, even though the main screen with the movie information shows a 4k logo. This seems to be the case even with movies I purchased on iTunes in HD that were upgraded to 4k, such as the Star Trek reboot movies. I also recently purchased Star Trek II directors cut in 4k from itunes and swiping down during playback only lists HD.

Can anyone confirm that when they swipe down during movie playback, the description does not show 4k for them on their 4k purchases?
I just watched the Star Trek 2 movie purchased in 4k from iTunes and it was 4k HDR throughout when swiping down during playback. I thought the quality was very good and I highly recommend it.

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post #6877 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrForza79 View Post
I assume your interpretation on DV Profile is based on this PDF: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...2-9-170601.pdf



I read posts before discussing Profile 5 and what it means and they seemed to say that includes a generic HDR layer but when I looked at this PDF I can't reach the same conclusion. Please feel free to correct my interpretations.



For DV Profile 5, relevant details are

BL signal cross-compatibility ID: 0

Bitstream Profile name: dvhe.stn

VUI: 2, 2, 2, 1 [Probably Irrelevant - EOTF, color primaries, matrix, and range respectively.]



Now to break this down, BL signal cross-compatibility ID is 0, which means "none, but ITP and IPTc4 color spaces are supported". I am not entirely sure what they are saying with this ID # and maybe this is the key point here but





I interpret this as the ability to decode to a different standard like HDR10, SDR or Blu-ray HDR etc. Note that the ID# is not 1, which means CTA HDR10 and as far as I am concerned, since the BL signal cross-compatibility ID is 0 and not 1, there is no HDR layer.



The Bitstream profile name dvhe.stn can be broken down as such

dv (irrelevant)

he = HEVC

[number_of_layers] s = Dolby Vision stream has a single layer (not relevant AFAIK) [Though in this paper https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...ormat-v1.1.pdf it mentions that a Single layer is not SDR-compliant, which is irrelevant but interesting I suppose...]

[bit_depth] t = bit depth of 10

[cross-compatibility] n = the Dolby Vision stream is not compatible with other standards for dynamic range, but uses Dolby Vision ITP or IPTc4 color space.



The last part is the most important and this is why I think Profile 5 does not have a base HDR layer. See the "cross-compatibility" value is not "h". If it was, the PDF says







Thus, I don't think that there is a base HDR layer based on the Profile 5 spec.



Now, iTunes may still deliver a HDR layer but as far as this Profile spec is concerned, it probably doesn't. What does the Dev info panel for the aTV 4K show for DV movie content on a HDR10 TV? Or is that muddled by the aTV's always HDR mode?



Curious to hear your thoughts!



PS: On a side note, The other cross-compability values are interesting, e.g., "r" = backward compatible and DV stream can be decoded to SDR signal and "b" indicates that the Dolby Vision stream is Blu-ray Disc backward compatible (Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc high dynamic range).


Has Apple confirmed there is a hdr base layer for DV movies? I have a 940e which doesn’t support DV yet and the DV movies look great but I just feel like it’s missing something.


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post #6878 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 07:16 AM
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This is for Wonder Woman purchased from iTunes. Shows as true 4K. I haven’t changed anything via quick start.


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post #6879 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 07:36 AM
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You make a compelling argument and I fear you are correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrForza79 View Post
I assume your interpretation on DV Profile is based on this PDF: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...2-9-170601.pdf

I read posts before discussing Profile 5 and what it means and they seemed to say that includes a generic HDR layer but when I looked at this PDF I can't reach the same conclusion. Please feel free to correct my interpretations.

For DV Profile 5, relevant details are
BL signal cross-compatibility ID: 0
Bitstream Profile name: dvhe.stn
VUI: 2, 2, 2, 1 [Probably Irrelevant - EOTF, color primaries, matrix, and range respectively.]

Now to break this down, BL signal cross-compatibility ID is 0, which means "none, but ITP and IPTc4 color spaces are supported". I am not entirely sure what they are saying with this ID # and maybe this is the key point here but


I interpret this as the ability to decode to a different standard like HDR10, SDR or Blu-ray HDR etc. Note that the ID# is not 1, which means CTA HDR10 and as far as I am concerned, since the BL signal cross-compatibility ID is 0 and not 1, there is no HDR layer.

The Bitstream profile name dvhe.stn can be broken down as such
dv (irrelevant)
he = HEVC
[number_of_layers] s = Dolby Vision stream has a single layer (not relevant AFAIK) [Though in this paper https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...ormat-v1.1.pdf it mentions that a Single layer is not SDR-compliant, which is irrelevant but interesting I suppose...]
[bit_depth] t = bit depth of 10
[cross-compatibility] n = the Dolby Vision stream is not compatible with other standards for dynamic range, but uses Dolby Vision ITP or IPTc4 color space.

The last part is the most important and this is why I think Profile 5 does not have a base HDR layer. See the "cross-compatibility" value is not "h". If it was, the PDF says



Thus, I don't think that there is a base HDR layer based on the Profile 5 spec.

Now, iTunes may still deliver a HDR layer but as far as this Profile spec is concerned, it probably doesn't. What does the Dev info panel for the aTV 4K show for DV movie content on a HDR10 TV? Or is that muddled by the aTV's always HDR mode?

Curious to hear your thoughts!

PS: On a side note, The other cross-compability values are interesting, e.g., "r" = backward compatible and DV stream can be decoded to SDR signal and "b" indicates that the Dolby Vision stream is Blu-ray Disc backward compatible (Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc high dynamic range).
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post #6880 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nj1420 View Post
Has Apple confirmed there is a hdr base layer for DV movies? I have a 940e which doesn’t support DV yet and the DV movies look great but I just feel like it’s missing something.


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The post you quote says "no".
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post #6881 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
How did you confirm they are playing in true 4k HDR on the ATV5?



If this is working for you, you are the only person getting this to work.



For example, I have Mad Max Fury Road as an HDX movie on Vudu. It shows up on the ATV5 with a description indicating 4k, of course, but when actually playing it back, it's not true 4k:











Not necessarily. For example, some services have DV without a HDR10 base layer. Apple, however, has implemented a version of DV that includes an HDR base layer.


Vudu is DV only

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post #6882 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post
Vudu is DV only
True but I am watching on the Apple TV which is not limited in that way:

iTunes on the Apple TV can handle DV and HDR10 no problem when things are working right. That is where I am watching this.

Last edited by nathan_h; 10-17-2017 at 03:12 PM.
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post #6883 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
You make a compelling argument and I fear you are correct.


Under the aTV 4K dev info panel, do you know the difference between “video-range” value on the line with “video format dec” (First line) and “video-range” in the line that starts with “display resolution” (third line)?

I am referring to PhillyKing’s post #6879 above and i.imgur.com/xzSrafD.jpg. The interesting thing in the latter is that (presumably) the video-range value in the top line says Dolby Vision but the third line says HDR10. It looks to be the LEGO Movie in the second image playing at full 4K and I know iTunes lists it as Dolby Vision so IDK if iTunes is serving HDR10 or if it is aTV 4K’s always HDR mode.
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post #6884 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekjewel View Post
It seems that when I use the swipe down function when playing a movie, the description says the movie is HD and does not show a 4k logo, even though the main screen with the movie information shows a 4k logo. This seems to be the case even with movies I purchased on iTunes in HD that were upgraded to 4k, such as the Star Trek reboot movies. I also recently purchased Star Trek II directors cut in 4k from itunes and swiping down during playback only lists HD.

Can anyone confirm that when they swipe down during movie playback, the description does not show 4k for them on their 4k purchases?
I think there is still some "stabilization" going on in the content servers. I've had items change from 4K HDR to HD, and back (in their listings) in the last few days. Also, I've seen the same: 4K HDR playing as HD HDR. Right now, many are playing properly as 4K HDR for me, but a few seem off: Saban's Power Rangers now lists HD (was 4K HDR), Independence Day Resurrection is now just 4K (no HDR), etc. The new Transformers had reverted back to just HD, and now back to 4K HDR. So, my theory is the content servers are still propagating/settling.

Last edited by Bullwyf; 10-17-2017 at 07:53 AM.
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post #6885 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrForza79 View Post
Under the aTV 4K dev info panel, do you know the difference between “video-range” value on the line with “video format dec” (First line) and “video-range” in the line that starts with “display resolution” (third line)?

I am referring to PhillyKing’s post #6879 above and i.imgur.com/xzSrafD.jpg. The interesting thing in the latter is that (presumably) the video-range value in the top line says Dolby Vision but the third line says HDR10. It looks to be the LEGO Movie in the second image playing at full 4K and I know iTunes lists it as Dolby Vision so IDK if iTunes is serving HDR10 or if it is aTV 4K’s always HDR mode.
The top line is the native format info for the file on Apple's servers.

The line starting with DISPLAY RESOLUTION contains info about what the Display chain is telling the ATV it can handle. So, in my case, is it 4k resolution, refresh rate 60hz, video range HDR10. (Actually, my display can handle lower refresh rates as well. This appears to be a case of the display chain telling the ATV the maximum capabilities of the display.)

I'm not sure what the next line starting element means (video display size). It does not appear to be related to the content itself. Rather, the next item in the line tells us the native resolution of the content: natural-size.

Presumably, the ATV is transforming DV into HDR10 for my display. Previously I misread the spec to indicate that it did this from some base layer that sat inside the DV stream. Now I am not so sure.
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post #6886 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zAndy12 View Post
Yep my experience exactly, I've always found I've needed to drop the brightness (down to 48 in my case) with DV content otherwise as you say it looks washed out, check out The OA on netflix it looks completely wrong with the brightness on 50, same with Bladerunner on ATV etc etc

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So Andy, I wonder if this is an LG thing, a 4K ATV issue or a DV thing in general? There are so few DV displays out there, it's hard to tell.

Did you find when you dropped your brightness that there was a tendency to crush the blacks? At this point I feel like the HDR10 presentation was more accurate.
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post #6887 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyKing View Post
This is for Wonder Woman purchased from iTunes. Shows as true 4K. I haven’t changed anything via quick start.


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If you turn off quick start, do you still get true 4k? I don't.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So Andy, I wonder if this is an LG thing, a 4K ATV issue or a DV thing in general? There are so few DV displays out there, it's hard to tell.

Did you find when you dropped your brightness that there was a tendency to crush the blacks? At this point I feel like the HDR10 presentation was more accurate.
I will be sure to get you an answer to this whenever my Sony set gets it DV update unless someone with a Vizio P series cares to chime in.
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post #6889 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quick Start == HDR

Everything I tested with Quick Start off was SDR.

Attached is the HUD from SM:Homecoming
Note that each items matches.
video-range, refresh (well it's paused) and display/natural size.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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Last edited by bodosom; 10-17-2017 at 01:58 PM.
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post #6890 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekjewel View Post
It seems that when I use the swipe down function when playing a movie, the description says the movie is HD and does not show a 4k logo, even though the main screen with the movie information shows a 4k logo. This seems to be the case even with movies I purchased on iTunes in HD that were upgraded to 4k, such as the Star Trek reboot movies. I also recently purchased Star Trek II directors cut in 4k from itunes and swiping down during playback only lists HD.

Can anyone confirm that when they swipe down during movie playback, the description does not show 4k for them on their 4k purchases?
I have the same issue and it's driving me nuts. Was checking movie playback formats with all this Movies Anywhere crap...but it turns out even my copy of La La Land, purchased on iTunes says HD when I pull down to see info.

What's the deal??
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post #6891 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 11:48 AM
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How are you guys getting that info on the screen?

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post #6892 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekjewel View Post
Can anyone confirm that when they swipe down during movie playback, the description does not show 4k for them on their 4k purchases?
Quote:
Originally Posted by richleeOC View Post
I have the same issue and it's driving me nuts.
It's working (rignt now) on my ATV. Perhaps there's some timing, resource or other transient issue. Alternatively you may have some other issue. I have Quick Start *on*, DV *on* and a DV capable AVR/display.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #6893 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gossamer88 View Post
How are you guys getting that info on the screen?
It's a debugging tool ostensibly for developers. You can enable it using Xcode (Apple's Mac-only IDE). Search for HUD in this thread if you have a Mac.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #6894 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Everything I tested qwith Quick Start off was SDR.
Thanks for checking/confirming. I guess the devils bargain is that to get the highest quality, one must use Quickstart (which also means adaptive streaming is applied to everything).

Luckily, it seems to work pretty well (ie, ramp up to UHD and mostly stay there) on a decent internet connection.
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post #6895 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gossamer88 View Post
How are you guys getting that info on the screen?
@bodosom answered this but I will add: If you ONLY want to see whether you are getting UHD or HD, apparently you can just "down swipe" while watching a movie, without enabling anything special.

If you want to geek out on the details of the source file, and how your TV is being recognized, and bit rates and bandwidth etc then you need the HUD.
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post #6896 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 12:15 PM
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Every 3-4 days or so I notice the colors on the ATV home screen are out of whack when first turning it on. Things go back to normal after restarting it.

Do you guys experience this as well, or could it be a defective ATV?
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post #6897 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Thanks for checking/confirming. I guess the devils bargain is that to get the highest quality, one must use Quickstart (which also means adaptive streaming is applied to everything).

Luckily, it seems to work pretty well (ie, ramp up to UHD and mostly stay there) on a decent internet connection.
Wow that has to be it - turned quick start off. Looking forward to checking it tonight!
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post #6898 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
I just watched the Star Trek 2 movie purchased in 4k from iTunes and it was 4k HDR throughout when swiping down during playback. I thought the quality was very good and I highly recommend it.


Thanks. I’ll try the developer mode option for the HUD to see if the bitrate is consistent with 4k. I double checked today and the swipe-down overlay only shows the HD logo for Star Trek II directors cut, but the main movie info screen has a 4k and HDR logo. Strange.
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post #6899 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by trekjewel View Post
Thanks. I’ll try the developer mode option for the HUD to see if the bitrate is consistent with 4k. I double checked today and the swipe-down overlay only shows the HD logo for Star Trek II directors cut, but the main movie info screen has a 4k and HDR logo. Strange.
I did the swipe down several times during the movie to make sure and it did indicate 4k HDR. Did you purchase directly from iTunes or did it show up under the Movies Anywhere debacle? I purchased it directly from iTunes in 4k just recently.

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post #6900 of 27623 Old 10-17-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
True but I am watching on the Apple TV, which is not limited in that way.


Vudu even on Apple i
Is

Not 4k
No hdr at all

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