Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post - Page 354 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10591 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by roland6465 View Post
That?s all exactly what I found out after an hour on the phone with three people at Apple support. Now I know that I will be buying the disc trilogy for the higher bitrate and True HD soundtracks.
Fyi the main audio on the 4k disc is dts hd all three.
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post #10592 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 06:14 PM
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So according to Robert zohn the issue with the Sony A1E and Apple 4K tv is that Apple needs to update to the latest DV spec.


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post #10593 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 06:27 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert9674 View Post
So according to Robert zohn the issue with the Sony A1E and Apple 4K tv is that Apple needs to update to the latest DV spec.


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Who is Robert Zohn?
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post #10594 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ROMIL View Post
Who is Robert Zohn?
Value Electronics.

Which is the first result I get when I search for Robert Zohn but I've done business with them.

They certainly have industry "connections" so it's not impossible he has information not yet available to the general public.
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post #10595 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jyyz View Post
Updated via downloading the update to USB.
Are you talking about updating an Apple TV?

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post #10596 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Are you talking about updating an Apple TV?


No he’s referring to the X930D

"well you know what doctor I'm going to go home take two aspirins and call you a b****"
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post #10597 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert9674 View Post
So according to Robert zohn the issue with the Sony A1E and Apple 4K tv is that Apple needs to update to the latest DV spec.
And the 203 (and presumably 205) issue? Apple broke Oppo's software? There are a few reasons why blaming Apple is implausible.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #10598 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
And the 203 (and presumably 205) issue? Apple broke Oppo's software? There are a few reasons why blaming Apple is implausible.


Considering Sony has the latest firmware of those devices (this morning) and specifically it is for DV, it wouldn’t be out of the question to assume they have the latest DV firmware. It’s not so much that Apple needs to update it’s firmware, but all manufactures need to update their firmware.

However, I would have to imagine that new DV firmware (display) would be backward compatible with old DV firmware (source) or we are going to be in for a World of headaches as DV firmware is updated at different intervals with display and source manufacturers. Let’s hope that’s not the case and that it’s a Sony issue not Apple or this is the first of many posts regarding DV not triggering problems.


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post #10599 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Houdini415 View Post
However, I would have to imagine that new DV firmware (display) would be backward compatible with old DV firmware
Yes. It's hard to imagine that Dolby would make a mistake of this magnitude and break every existing consumer DV source except the Sony UHD player. Of course it's also hard to imagine that Sony would make a design choice to no longer be interoperable with anyone else. I may have been too harsh but "Sony developed the DV upgrade to Dolby's latest profile and ... need[s] OPPO and Apple to update their devices" sure sounds like someone wants to deflect the blame from Sony for releasing a poorly tested update.

Unless all the other DV capable set-top boxes and UHD players are working.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #10600 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 09:39 PM
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We should be seeing another Apple TV beta this week and maybe next week so you never know!

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post #10601 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Yes. It's hard to imagine that Dolby would make a mistake of this magnitude and break every existing consumer DV source except the Sony UHD player. Of course it's also hard to imagine that Sony would make a design choice to no longer be interoperable with anyone else. I may have been too harsh but "Sony developed the DV upgrade to Dolby's latest profile and ... need[s] OPPO and Apple to update their devices" sure sounds like someone wants to deflect the blame from Sony for releasing a poorly tested update.

Unless all the other DV capable set-top boxes and UHD players are working.
It is too early to tell but your comment insinuating that someone was saying "Dolby making the mistake of breaking every existing consumer DV source", isn't true.

What we know so far:
  • Sony released a firmware update that enables Dolby Vision support for many of their sets but is currently limited to the built-in apps
  • The Sony update does not break any preexisting support for all the HDR10 sources previously available (It will just fall back to HDR10 on the Oppo or ATV 4K as it used previously. Nothing has changed support wise since the update vs the previous on all their sets.)
  • We do not know for sure, outside of John Archer's article, that only displays need an update to fix the elevated black issue. There is a possibility that an update is needed on the source as well as the display as far as known information since neither side has shared enough to come to a conclusion.
  • Referencing John Archer's article, Dolby was being rather opaque as far as what the root cause was, leading back to the possibility that the problem was more widespread than they shared with the Forbes writer
  • The Sony update released after the public hearing from the same Forbes article that Dolby admitted there was a bug in their format and they were deploying a code fix, meaning that it is possible that Sony integrated that change, in turn breaking compatibility. (A possible knock-on effect of the code change.)
Believe me, I will be quite displeased if they never release an update to support DV via HDMI but at this point there could be a myriad of possibilities for the situation.

If there was an example of the elevated black level issue being fixed on a display without any source players being updated, that would be a reason to be upset but the fact of the matter is, we don't have enough information as consumers to know the dependencies as far as what all needs updating. At this point it is on Sony, Dolby, among others to inform their consumers as to the root cause and what in particular needs addressing.
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post #10602 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
...What we know so far:
  • Sony released a firmware update that enables Dolby Vision support for many of their sets but is currently limited to the built-in apps
  • The Sony update does not break any preexisting support for all the HDR10 sources previously available (It will just fall back to HDR10 on the Oppo or ATV 4K as it used previously. Nothing has changed support wise since the update vs the previous on all their sets.)
  • We do not know for sure, outside of John Archer's article, that only displays need an update to fix the elevated black issue. There is a possibility that an update is needed on the source as well as the display as far as known information since neither side has shared enough to come to a conclusion.
  • Referencing John Archer's article, Dolby was being rather opaque as far as what the root cause was, leading back to the possibility that the problem was more widespread than they shared with the Forbes writer
  • The Sony update released after the public hearing from the same Forbes article that Dolby admitted there was a bug in their format and they were deploying a code fix, meaning that it is possible that Sony integrated that change, in turn breaking compatibility. (A possible knock-on effect of the code change.)
Believe me, I will be quite displeased if they never release an update to support DV via HDMI but at this point there could be a myriad of possibilities for the situation.

If there was an example of the elevated black level issue being fixed on a display without any source players being updated, that would be a reason to be upset but the fact of the matter is, we don't have enough information as consumers to know the dependencies as far as what all needs updating. At this point it is on Sony, Dolby, among others to inform their consumers as to the root cause and what in particular needs addressing.
Very well said!

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post #10603 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
It is too early to tell but your comment insinuating that someone was saying "Dolby making the mistake of breaking every existing consumer DV source", isn't true.
I didn't insinuate that. I quoted Robert Zohn (with some clarification) who said (exactly):
"Third, from what I can determine the issue is that Sony developed the DV upgrade to Dolby's latest profile and we need OPPO and Apple to update their devices. This is my best early evaluation."

Which means that Dolby is so profoundly stupid that they released code to Sony to support a "new profile" that broke every older source device. I was pointing out how ridiculous that sounds.

Robert also said: "First, I want everyone to know that I personally watched DV play on Sony's Z9D and A1E at CES with Sony's new UBP-X700 UHD Blu-ray player player and Sony's USB content."

Which means Sony broke everyone elses's player but not their own (with Sony content) -- and that DV over HDMI does work.
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post #10604 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I didn't insinuate that. I quoted Robert Zohn (with some clarification) who said (exactly):
"Third, from what I can determine the issue is that Sony developed the DV upgrade to Dolby's latest profile and we need OPPO and Apple to update their devices. This is my best early evaluation."

Which means that Dolby is so profoundly stupid that they released code to Sony to support a "new profile" that broke every older source device. I was pointing out how ridiculous that sounds.
Broke? Again, nothing is broken at the moment, so I don't know why you keep using that word.

When my LG or Vizio displays that accepted DV from HDMI sources no longer can, then you can start saying things "broke".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Robert also said: "First, I want everyone to know that I personally watched DV play on Sony's Z9D and A1E at CES with Sony's new UBP-X700 UHD Blu-ray player player and Sony's USB content."

Which means Sony broke everyone elses's player but not their own (with Sony content) -- and that DV over HDMI does work.
That does not mean Sony broke any player at all. Literally all that can be deduced from that is that the player and display's code/compatibility level were in parity.

It is possible that they were running pre-released software (Dolby and/or Sony firmware) on both devices for the demo.

Anyway, it is all speculation at this point but nothing "broke" or has regressed.
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post #10605 of 29042 Old 01-16-2018, 11:30 PM
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As a noob, from what I can understand Dolby messed up?
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post #10606 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
As a noob, from what I can understand Dolby messed up?
From what I understand, we likely need devices to start supporting this new implementation of software based DV that Sony is using. I don?t know if they messed up, so much as we just need everyone to upgrade their firmware. Apple moves pretty fast in that regard, usually. I?d rather be waiting on Apple than Sony any day!

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post #10607 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 05:14 AM
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Hi everyone
On my side I have the 4K DV option (both 50 and 60hz) in my APTV4K
Got an LG 55B7 + Denon X1400H

On denon I had to activate a specific option on video menu to see the 4K DV --> "Enhanced 4k"

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post #10608 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
As a noob, from what I can understand Dolby messed up?
There is a longstanding issue with some Dolby Visison experiences where black levels especially letterbox bars look gray instead of black.

That issue persists, and Dolby has finally acknowledged it and is working on fixing it.

Nothing that was previously working has broken, yet. But there are lots of one off and or incomplete data points at the moment about what might be going on in the DV ecosystem and whether, in the effort to fix the longstanding issue noted here, Dolby may create other issues.

So to answer your question: Yes but not recently. At least, not yet. But suspicions run high.
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post #10609 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
There is a longstanding issue with some Dolby Visison experiences where black levels especially letterbox bars look gray instead of black.

That issue persists, and Dolby has finally acknowledged it and is working on fixing it.

Nothing that was previously working has broken, yet. But there are lots of one off and or incomplete data points at the moment about what might be going on in the DV ecosystem and whether, in the effort to fix the longstanding issue noted here, Dolby may create other issues.

So to answer your question: Yes but not recently. At least, not yet. But suspicions run high.
According to Forbes it's been fixed and Dolby has already released the fix to TV manufacturers. It's the TV makers that will need to implement the fix and roll it to customers.
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post #10610 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 05:26 AM
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Based on this issue with Dolby, one has to look at open standards with a little more weight. Here is hoping the ATV4K will support HDR10+ and we can put this Dolby mess to bed...


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post #10611 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
Lol. I can do cerebral. Just as long as there's firetrucks and explosions.

I see this is 4k on the Amazon app. Is this audio bug exclusive to the ATV?
I'm getting 4k and DD + 5.1 audio on my ATV 4K. Didn't do anything special, just started watching it and that is what I got.

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post #10612 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 05:32 AM
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According to Forbes it's been fixed and Dolby has already released the fix to TV manufacturers. It's the TV makers that will need to implement the fix and roll it to customers.
Agreed. That is what the Forbes article says that Dolby says.

And other than maybe one demo at CES with an unreleased Sony UHD player and Sony TV that may not have been running production firmware, no one has actually seen DV over HDMI fixed in the wild, yet.

Sure hope we do soon and that it really 'only' takes a display side update.
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post #10613 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by OneStepAhead View Post
From what I understand, we likely need devices to start supporting this new implementation of software based DV that Sony is using.
No. If Sony has released DV support that doesn't support external devices they should say so and people shouldn't be reposting or liking posts that suggest otherwise. If Sony has released DV support that only works with Sony players they should say so. If Dolby released code that was incompatible with all shipping external devices they should say so and fix it -- but that's not how DV works.

Earlier I used broken in colloquial sense. I'll stop assuming that's safe for this issue.
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post #10614 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
As a noob, from what I can understand Dolby messed up?
What are you talking about?
The purported fix for black levels in existing DV content?
Or the assertion that Apple needs to make changes to be compatible with Sony DV displays?

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #10615 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 07:33 AM
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That's because those numbers include the letterbox bars. HD is 1.78:1 and the links I provided have the image aspect ratios for those productions. 2.00:1 results in very narrow bars that one* can easily miss in a dim room against a narrow black bezel (e.g. C7P).

*Well okay, I can easily miss.
Now I understand. Thanks for clearing things up for me!
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post #10616 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg TB View Post
I'm getting 4k and DD + 5.1 audio on my ATV 4K. Didn't do anything special, just started watching it and that is what I got.

Greg
Hello,
How do you know you are getting DD+? What do have your audio settings set to on your APTV? Are you referring to the Amazon app?
Only very few programs are in 5.1. If you are set to DD than you are getting compressed 5.1.
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post #10617 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 09:24 AM
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Hi,
I read 50 pages of the thread without finding the answer (maybe it's because there is none ).

What are the best settings for you with APTV4 (considering that my set is able to handle HDR and DV) ?

I'm a little bit lost between 4K SDR, 4K HDR, 4K DV, 50hz, 60hz...
Most of the time I'm using APTV to watch local content (minimum 1080p and more and more 4k)

I know that there is no perfect settings but any advices or views are more than welcome

P.S : sorry if I made some mistakes in English... I'm French !

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post #10618 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 09:44 AM
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If you mean ATV4k and not ATV4 (which was the prior, 1080p model) then most people start with:

1. default output set to 4k SDR
2. match frame rate ON
3. match dynamic range ON

---

Some people like:

1. default output set to 4k HDR or DV, or AUTO
2. match frame rate ON
3. match dynamic range ON
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post #10619 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
If you mean ATV4k and not ATV4 (which was the prior, 1080p model) then most people start with:

1. default output set to 4k SDR
2. match frame rate ON
3. match dynamic range ON

---

Some people like:

1. default output set to 4k HDR or DV, or AUTO
2. match frame rate ON
3. match dynamic range ON
Thank you for your answer.
ATV4K indeed
Why do you prefer SDR to HDR as a default setting ?
HDR not supposed to be better quality than SDR ?

And what about Hz ? 50 or 60 ?

Thx

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post #10620 of 29042 Old 01-17-2018, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Lazer28 View Post
Thank you for your answer.
ATV4K indeed
Why do you prefer SDR to HDR as a default setting ?
HDR not supposed to be better quality than SDR ?

And what about Hz ? 50 or 60 ?

Thx
Since the vast majority of content is still SDR I personally think that is the better default setting. Plus the menus aren't a whole lot nicer or anything in HDR vs SDR. When the balance changes so that most things are in HDR it may be time to switch.
nathan_h and dodo/lurker like this.
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