Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post - Page 358 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10711 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cydeweyz View Post
Assuming you’ve also had your eyes, optic nerves and brain calibrated to the Directors, I’m not sure any of us are “seeing it right”, so how about spending more time just enjoying content on your Apple TV?


You know this makes ZERO sense right? Standards exist for this very reason. Calibration in accordance to said standards will yield IDENTICAL results to those found on the creators authoring display.


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post #10712 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 04:26 AM
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Do Infuse Pro users here also notice that 4K UHD Blu-ray HDR remuxes on the Apple TV 4K are less bright than playing the same disc on a UHD Blu-ray player? The difference is huge. Is something wrong with the app or the Apple TV 4K? What settings do OLED owners of the B6 use?

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post #10713 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg TB View Post
Well, contrary to my post I am NOT getting anything other than stereo. I apologize; I am unable recreate any surround sound from Electric Dreams, with either the SDR or UHD versions. Just stereo as stated by others, and now myself.
Yeah, it’s really too bad. Am looking forward to amazon fixing this.
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post #10714 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Do Infuse Pro users here also notice that 4K UHD Blu-ray HDR remuxes on the Apple TV 4K are less bright than playing the same disc on a UHD Blu-ray player? The difference is huge. Is something wrong with the app or the Apple TV 4K? What settings do OLED owners of the B6 use?


There is currently an issue with HDR playback on Infuse. Have a look at their forums. There’s a fix coming in the next update apparently. MrMC does a better job of HDR playback at the moment.


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post #10715 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
There is currently an issue with HDR playback on Infuse. Have a look at their forums. There’s a fix coming in the next update apparently. MrMC does a better job of HDR playback at the moment.


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Thanks for confirming this! I will take a look at their forum. Yesterday the app received an update, but I don’t think this problem is solved yet.

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post #10716 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Thanks for confirming this! I will take a look at their forum. Yesterday the app received an update, but I don’t think this problem is solved yet.


No it definitely isn’t. They had hoped to include the fix in that update but it’s taking a bit more work than initially anticipated. For what it’s worth though, I’ve used the app for a couple of years now and the developers are very active and responsive. I’m completely confident it will be fixed.


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post #10717 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
No it definitely isn’t. They had hoped to include the fix in that update but it’s taking a bit more work than initially anticipated. For what it’s worth though, I’ve used the app for a couple of years now and the developers are very active and responsive. I’m completely confident it will be fixed.


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I hope so. Hopefully they will also add Dolby Vision compatibility soon.

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post #10718 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
It’s not “May” that exactly explains it. You need an ATV4K or another compatible iDevice to “unlock” the 4K version. Otherwise all you will ever see is HD.
I do have an ATV4K as I mentioned.My display even though its 1080p I was under the impression 4k material would just get converted.The 4k I've played looks fantastic but it wont display the info on the drop down.I know its 4k cause its says it on the video

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post #10719 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Everyone is different. To me it looks as gaudy as using vivid mode. I'm glad Apple give us the choice so that we can all be happy. I don't have HDR mode calibrated on my E6, so perhaps that may be the reason.
Yes, that would be the reason. If your HDR mode is well calibrated (and well implemented by your TV), SDR content viewed on an AppleTV locked in to HDR output mode, should look like normal SDR for the most part.

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post #10720 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rocky1 View Post
I do have an ATV4K as I mentioned.My display even though its 1080p I was under the impression 4k material would just get converted.The 4k I've played looks fantastic but it wont display the info on the drop down.I know its 4k cause its says it on the video


How do you mean ‘it says it on the video’? If you’re connecting your Apple TV 4k to a 1080p set then it’ll just stream the 1080p version.


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post #10721 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 06:51 AM
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Have a question that is off of the topic of PQ. My ATV 4K is from launch, and recently my remote is having difficulty staying connected and working beyond one click at a time. The trackpad doesn’t work at all. The remote connects and disconnects constantly.

Haven’t gotten the remote wet or anything and have used the remote app on my iPhone to control the unit.

Anyone else experience issues with the remote? Do you think I can go to an Apple Store and just get a new one?

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post #10722 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BAMABLUHD View Post
Have a question that is off of the topic of PQ. My ATV 4K is from launch, and recently my remote is having difficulty staying connected and working beyond one click at a time. The trackpad doesn’t work at all. The remote connects and disconnects constantly.

Haven’t gotten the remote wet or anything and have used the remote app on my iPhone to control the unit.

Anyone else experience issues with the remote? Do you think I can go to an Apple Store and just get a new one?

When was the last time that you charged the remote?

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post #10723 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Fins^ View Post
When was the last time that you charged the remote?
Charged it as soon as started to have issues, so it has power.

Strange issue it’s having.

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post #10724 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BAMABLUHD View Post
Have a question that is off of the topic of PQ. My ATV 4K is from launch, and recently my remote is having difficulty staying connected and working beyond one click at a time. The trackpad doesn’t work at all. The remote connects and disconnects constantly.

Haven’t gotten the remote wet or anything and have used the remote app on my iPhone to control the unit.

Anyone else experience issues with the remote? Do you think I can go to an Apple Store and just get a new one?
I had a simular issue. I bought a used ATV 4K and the last owner did the factory reset to the ATV, as they should. However, at the main setup screen, the ATV would not recognize the remote. In my case, the remote was fine as I could see the blinking white light on the ATV, but the device it self did not respond.

Took it to the Apple Store and they could not figure out why the ATV was not recognizing the remote. As a result, they gave me a new ATV since it was still under factory warranty. Take it to the store and let them diagnose the issue.
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post #10725 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 08:05 AM
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You are missing the point here. Forcing HDR on non-HDR material actually noticeably improves the dynamic range perception for virtually all non-HDR material, at least in my case.

The test that won me over to forcing HDR on everything was watching the last episode on Game of Thrones, on HBOGo, which is 1080p and non-HDR. Turning Match Dynamic Range off made the picture look much better, with what I perceived as a significantly wider dynamic range, while not crushing the shadow or highlight detail. Forced HDR makes non-HDR content look close to real Dolby Vision content, at least to my eyes and on my (otherwise pretty well calibrated) set.

So, I can understand why at launch Apple forced HDR, as their algorithms really do make non-HDR content better, without notable exceptions that I've seen so far. Perhaps they thought that for simplicity sake, they didn't need dynamic range passthrough.

But, I also understand that some may prefer to see SDR content as is, just as some insist on lossless even if the difference is not audible, so I am glad that Apple allowed toggling of universal HDR processing. Now, if Apple pushes bitstream with the next tvOS update, the ATV 4k will be the perfect box.
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I don’t really think there’s much to argue about here. The most accurate picture on a properly calibrated set should be achieved by turning match dynamic range on. If you are forcing HDR then you are applying processing which takes the image further away from the source material. There’s no real debate about this. It simply is.

However......forcing HDR may result in a picture which is more pleasing to your eye. And if that is the case then set your Apple TV up how you would like. It’s your equipment, you paid your money, switch it on and enjoy it.


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As Andrew stated, I think we all can agree that everyone has different preferences and we should just all enjoy our ATV 4K. Maybe Ryan1 and are seeing things differently because we both have calibrated OLED's, mine professionally. I honestly don't know because I don't have a non calibrated set to compare the picture to. I was just simply stating that I noticed that the colors popped more with match dynamic range set to off. Not in a VIVID mode overkill way. To each his/her own

In my case, I was saying that forcing HDR on 1080p material looks better but forcing HDR on SDR material doesn't.
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post #10726 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 08:32 AM
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I have a question about Apple TV 4K audio quality. I keep seeing posts off/on criticizing its sound quality. Can someone elaborate what exactly the issue is? I know Atmos is not enabled yet, but planned for future.

If I understand the siutation, apple tv outputs sound via mutichannel PCM (best), DD5.1 or stereo. Apple TV receives bitstream encoded audio from the source, decodes to PCM and transmits. If DD5.1 is selected, does it decode and then re-encode to DD5.1? Right now, I have a old receiver and everything is going through the TV and then optical from TV to receiver. So I can only choose DD5.1 option. I am thinking of getting a new receiver. If I connect the Apple TV to the receiver --> TV, I understand I be able to get DD+ (and Atmos when available), but will the SQ of the DD 5.1 as I have it connected now sound any better compared to the newer configuration (direct to receiver via PCM)? Besides the lack of Atmos currently, how can the SQ of Apple TV sending out PCM audio to the receiver be any different than say Roku or CC Ultra connected directly to the receiver sending out bitstream audio?
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post #10727 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 08:57 AM
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I just did a support chat with amazon on the audio issue and they gave me this update:

...Upon internal investigation I see that there is currently an update being worked on for Amazon Video which will include an update that will allow for 5.1 digital sounds on devices including Apple TV.. the release date is not stated however it does stipulate it is coming soon.

That alert was released January 13th 2017.
So no specific release date, but reason to be optimistic I think.
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post #10728 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dandaroy View Post
I have a question about Apple TV 4K audio quality. I keep seeing posts off/on criticizing its sound quality. Can someone elaborate what exactly the issue is? I know Atmos is not enabled yet, but planned for future.

If I understand the siutation, apple tv outputs sound via mutichannel PCM (best), DD5.1 or stereo. Apple TV receives bitstream encoded audio from the source, decodes to PCM and transmits. If DD5.1 is selected, does it decode and then re-encode to DD5.1? Right now, I have a old receiver and everything is going through the TV and then optical from TV to receiver. So I can only choose DD5.1 option. I am thinking of getting a new receiver. If I connect the Apple TV to the receiver --> TV, I understand I be able to get DD+ (and Atmos when available), but will the SQ of the DD 5.1 as I have it connected now sound any better compared to the newer configuration (direct to receiver via PCM)? Besides the lack of Atmos currently, how can the SQ of Apple TV sending out PCM audio to the receiver be any different than say Roku or CC Ultra connected directly to the receiver sending out bitstream audio?
Opinions vary between no issue with sound quality, to being deaf or a liar, to criticizing both the levels as well as the dynamics so good luck with drawing a conclusion out of that lot.

Best seems to be the majority opinion on what to use, otherwise the ATV decodes and then re-encodes to pass DD. No Atmos at this point but there are some reports that it is coming. You can get lossless up to 7.1 depending on your player of choice on the ATV - Infuse and MrMC are both capable
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post #10729 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheezmo View Post
Yes, that would be the reason. If your HDR mode is well calibrated (and well implemented by your TV), SDR content viewed on an AppleTV locked in to HDR output mode, should look like normal SDR for the most part.
If SDR looks like normal SDR when forcing HDR output, why bother forcing HDR output?

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post #10730 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
If SDR looks like normal SDR when forcing HDR output, why bother forcing HDR output?
So that your TV won't have to flip to a black screen for a few seconds to change modes. Apple is all about a smooth user experience and having a TV resync like that is annoying and possibly confusing to people that don't know what is going on.

For example I have a bunch of music videos and often shuffle music playlists with videos in them. With match frame rate on, every time a video starts I get a black screen on the TV for a few seconds while it adjusts to the new frame rate. It is annoying as heck so I usually leave match frame rate off, except when I think of it before a serious movie watching session or something.
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post #10731 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 10:56 AM
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What do you mean by get up to 7.1 lossless audio depending on your player of choice on ATV? I understand that I have to use PCM option to get DD+ or greater than 5.1 Audio or Atmos.
Finally what is Infus or MrMc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by andygiddings View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandaroy View Post
I have a question about Apple TV 4K audio quality. I keep seeing posts off/on criticizing its sound quality. Can someone elaborate what exactly the issue is? I know Atmos is not enabled yet, but planned for future.

If I understand the siutation, apple tv outputs sound via mutichannel PCM (best), DD5.1 or stereo. Apple TV receives bitstream encoded audio from the source, decodes to PCM and transmits. If DD5.1 is selected, does it decode and then re-encode to DD5.1? Right now, I have a old receiver and everything is going through the TV and then optical from TV to receiver. So I can only choose DD5.1 option. I am thinking of getting a new receiver. If I connect the Apple TV to the receiver --> TV, I understand I be able to get DD+ (and Atmos when available), but will the SQ of the DD 5.1 as I have it connected now sound any better compared to the newer configuration (direct to receiver via PCM)? Besides the lack of Atmos currently, how can the SQ of Apple TV sending out PCM audio to the receiver be any different than say Roku or CC Ultra connected directly to the receiver sending out bitstream audio?
Opinions vary between no issue with sound quality, to being deaf or a liar, to criticizing both the levels as well as the dynamics so good luck with drawing a conclusion out of that lot.

Best seems to be the majority opinion on what to use, otherwise the ATV decodes and then re-encodes to pass DD. No Atmos at this point but there are some reports that it is coming. You can get lossless up to 7.1 depending on your player of choice on the ATV - Infuse and MrMC are both capable
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post #10732 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheezmo View Post
So that your TV won't have to flip to a black screen for a few seconds to change modes. Apple is all about a smooth user experience and having a TV resync like that is annoying and possibly confusing to people that don't know what is going on.

For example I have a bunch of music videos and often shuffle music playlists with videos in them. With match frame rate on, every time a video starts I get a black screen on the TV for a few seconds while it adjusts to the new frame rate. It is annoying as heck so I usually leave match frame rate off, except when I think of it before a serious movie watching session or something.
Thanks for the explanation. With my E6, it's a bit of an issue doing that. If I leave the ATV in HDR mode, I have to manually switch the HDR mode's color gamut on the tv from normal to wide to get it to look like SDR, otherwise it lacks color. However, with real HDR content, I leave color gamut at normal, because the tv will automatically adjust to the proper color gamut for true HDR2020. Leaving it at wide over saturates everything. So for me, setting ATV to 4K SDR and leaving match resolution on produces everything correctly without having to adjust color gamut.
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post #10733 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dandaroy View Post
What do you mean by get up to 7.1 lossless audio depending on your player of choice on ATV? I understand that I have to use PCM option to get DD+ or greater than 5.1 Audio or Atmos.
Finally what is Infus or MrMc?
Not all apps on the ATV will pass lossless audio. The ATV is capable of passing up to 7.1. Two applications that are capable of passing lossless audio (obviously your source has to have the correct audio track) are Infuse and MrMC. Both are in the App Store.

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post #10734 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 02:15 PM
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So I know the native apps on LG OLEDs have Atmos support. I know ATV doesn't have it yet but Vudu has Atmos movies. Are there any devices besides the native TV apps that have Vudu Atmos support?
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post #10735 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
So I know the native apps on LG OLEDs have Atmos support. I know ATV doesn't have it yet but Vudu has Atmos movies. Are there any devices besides the native TV apps that have Vudu Atmos support?
Roku 4K Ultra does
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post #10736 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cheezmo View Post
Yes, that would be the reason. If your HDR mode is well calibrated (and well implemented by your TV), SDR content viewed on an AppleTV locked in to HDR output mode, should look like normal SDR for the most part.
I believe you meant to say "SDR content viewed on an AppleTV locked in to HDR output mode, should look like normal HDR for the most part."

Right? Because otherwise it does not make sense.


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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
I don’t really think there’s much to argue about here. The most accurate picture on a properly calibrated set should be achieved by turning match dynamic range on. If you are forcing HDR then you are applying processing which takes the image further away from the source material. There’s no real debate about this. It simply is....
Yes, you are correct. But "source material" doesn't have to mean "good" or "better." Virtually every digital camera does processing, some better than others. Similarly, I'd much rather listen to a well done digitally remastered recording of Billie Holiday than to the original scratchy recording with poor dynamic range, which is the pure "source" material.

HBO streams all material in 1080p and SDR, but it doesn't mean that the source material (for instance, "Game of Thrones") is produced in 1080p and SDR. I found that Apple TVs algorithms do a very good job of both upscaling to 4k (my set is large enough to be able to see the difference) and enhancing the dynamic range to approximate HDR.

While Game of Thrones with Match Dynamic Range set to off (forced HDR) does not look quite as dynamic as Okja on Netflix, which is both streamed in 4k and Dolby Vision, GoT processed by Apple TV's HDR algorithms still looks noticeably more dynamic (not necessarily more saturated) than the"original" streamed in 1080p SDR.

To each their own, but I would still suggest that people test it for themselves and chose the setting which looks best on their set.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmd1 View Post
Roku 4K Ultra does
Roku supports Atmos, but not Dolby Vision. Roku also has the UI design equivalent of La-Z-Boy. So, one has to pick their compromises....

Last edited by Ryan1; 01-20-2018 at 03:09 PM.
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post #10737 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Are there any devices besides the native TV apps that have Vudu Atmos support?
One implication of Vudu's support information is that all of the [supported UHD devices] will pass Atmos.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #10738 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
I believe you meant to say "SDR content viewed on an AppleTV locked in to HDR output mode, should look like normal HDR for the most part."

Right? Because otherwise it does not make sense.

Nope, @Cheezmo got it right. Apple was trying to avoid user's TV's from mode switching. This was part of the marketing spiel about why HDR was forced on all content, at launch. The article in Engadget is a great example of the press explaining this on behalf of Apple. (https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/21/...v-4k-hands-on/)

But as you have noticed, it doesn't actually do that completely accurately. I'm glad you like the way it is altering it and that you can choose to use that. In fact, FlatPanelsHD measure the output and dinged Apple for not outputting content accurately. https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....&id=1507035457 and Apple said "whoops we are trying to make SDR look like SDR, even if things are set to HDR" in this oft quoted article in the Verge where it says:

Quote:
The good news is Apple told me it’s continuing to refine the processing it’s doing with the goal of making HD SDR content look normal, and the Apple TV gets regular software updates, so it’s not an empty promise. But right now, if you just want to pass along an unmolested HD video feed, you’ll have to change the output settings of the entire system.
(this was before Match Dynamic Range was available) source: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/21/1...4k-review-2017

I'm glad that Apple relented on the forced HDR "feature" and made it possible for others (like myself) to watch it the way the mastering engineering designed it to look.

It's not a crime to goose it up if you like that.

Just please don't take away my ability to see it the way it was mastered and intended to be seen.

---------------------------------------

Here is more info from the FlatPanelsHD article:



SDR reference is the reference measured on the TV via USB. It shows how the TV reproduces SDR content accurately. Notice that both grey scale and colors are spot-on:



-----

4K SDR output mode shows Apple TV 4K set to 4K SDR (60Hz) output mode and with SDR content. Notice that colors and grey scale are still spot-on and reproduced accurately. The color space is also correct (right triangle). The white boxes are the targets and the colored dots are the measurements:




------

4K HDR output mode shows Apple TV 4K set to 4K Dolby Vision (60Hz) output mode and with SDR content. Notice that colors and grey scale are off, and that colors are pulled into a larger color space (right triangle). The white boxes are the targets and the colored dots are the measurements. Peak brightness is also much higher (627 cd/m2 or nits):



--------


Apple’s HDR tone-mapping shows the color gamut from picture 3 as an overlay on top of the native color space of the 2017 OLED panel used for testing. It shows how Apple’s HDR tone-mapping is applied in practice, revealing that primary colors are not pulled all the way out into the DCI-P3 primaries but still visibly too saturated compared to the Rec.709 SDR color gamut:

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Last edited by nathan_h; 01-20-2018 at 04:46 PM.
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post #10739 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
[1]I believe you meant to say "SDR content viewed on an AppleTV locked in to HDR output mode, should look like normal HDR for the most part." Right? Because otherwise it does not make sense.
[2] HBO streams all material in 1080p and SDR, but it doesn't mean that the source material (for instance, "Game of Thrones") is produced in 1080p and SDR.
[3]I found that Apple TVs algorithms do a very good job of both upscaling to 4k (my set is large enough to be able to see the difference) and enhancing the dynamic range to approximate HDR.
[1] Review the issues associated with encapsulating all output as HDR.
[2] Presumably HBO et.al are using an HD graded master for HD distribution (disc or streaming).
[3] This makes it sound like Apple developed an SDR to HDR system like Technicolor ITM. I'm confidant if that were that the case Apple would have mentioned this breakthrough. The indication is that they're marking the stream as static HDR (viz. DV to HDR10) and your display is doing the tone mapping. Unless you have some evidence to the contrary.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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Last edited by bodosom; 01-20-2018 at 03:27 PM.
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post #10740 of 25616 Old 01-20-2018, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
One implication of Vudu's support information is that all of the [supported UHD devices] will pass Atmos.
i don't see that stated? i mean 2016 LG OLEDs had 4k HDR/DV on Vudu but don't pass Atmos.
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