Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post - Page 452 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13531 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 10:37 AM
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Yes, let's keep the Off Topic discussions to PM.

Thanks
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post #13532 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 10:50 AM
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So curious WRGT 1080p HDR setting:

Is there actual 1080p HDR content (mastered that way - not apple converted somehow) available on the ATV4K, or is this setting primarily for those wanting to watch 4K HDR material on 1080p sets (ie ATV downconverts resolution but maintains HDR)?

Wasn't even sure 1080p HDR was an actual standard.

Also, after adding the ATV to my Harmony, there is a "Display Setting" button. What does it do - take you directly to that part of the menu, or is there a way to directly / discreetly select display modes?

(Haven't had time to try Harmony, and that hub is in PJ system, but currently playing with ATV on another one...)

Thanks!
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post #13533 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
AC3 is what the iTunes movies use and by default the Apple TV decodes that format internally and just passes it via lossless LPCM. It isn't so much a recreation, per se.
As noted before (and in the first post) the AC-3 output is re-encoded from the LPCM decode and my previous AVR considered that encoding to be "broken" since they didn't (don't?, I can't check now) send DIALNORM meta-data. Not they sent DIALNORM 0, no DIALNORM.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13534 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
Also, I'll add that I seem to be getting audio (5.1 LPCM as mentioned) that is consistently around 6-8 db lower (into AVR) than other streamers / disc sources.
Yes and this is an ongoing issue. The current beta release is even quieter (at least in Dunkirk where gunshots are 10dB lower) so Apple is clearly thinking about it. What they're thinking remains a mystery.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13535 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Yes and this is an ongoing issue. The current beta release is even quieter (at least in Dunkirk where gunshots are 10dB lower) so Apple is clearly thinking about it. What they're thinking remains a mystery.
So not only is the audio linearly lower, but the dynamic range is somehow being manipulated (in beta you reference, anyway)?

And is this the case with either "Dolby Digital 5.1" or "Best Sound Available" selected? (not sure what's going on here...)
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post #13536 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post

Wasn't even sure 1080p HDR was an actual standard.
[Rec. 2100] (2016) defines critical parts of HDR. "2K", 4K and 8K resolutions are part of the specification but I doubt anyone is making Rec. 2100 compatible 2K displays for consumer use. I have 38 resolution/range choices on my ATV. HDR stops at 1920x1080p (2K) per 2100.
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post #13537 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
As noted before (and in the first post) the AC-3 output is re-encoded from the LPCM decode and my previous AVR considered that encoding to be "broken" since they didn't (don't?, I can't check now) send DIALNORM meta-data. Not they sent DIALNORM 0, no DIALNORM.
I am not sure what you mean when you say AC3 is re-encoded from the LPCM decode. That reads backwards to me.

The source format is AC3. The codec is then internally decoded by the Apple TV and then re-encoded into LPCM which is then passed to the receiver. Consoles do the same thing unless you explicitly enable bitstream. They decode everything internally and then re-encode to LPCM to send to the AVR. This is also the reason like to use bitstream output because they prefer their AVR or Pre-pro to do the decoding rather than the console or streamer box.

Only bitstream signals contain metadata for dialnorm, so since the Apple TV is doing the decoding internally then passing that signal via LPCM, which does not support metadata, it is not sent.
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post #13538 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
So good for Disney and MA, but what's apples up side here?
Steve Jobs was Disney's largest shareholder in the aftermath of selling them PIXAR and was elected to their Board of Directors so Apple and Disney were rather close during his tenure and the two companies worked together to bring Disney media to the Apple ecosystem.
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post #13539 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
So not only is the audio linearly lower, but the dynamic range is somehow being manipulated (in beta you reference, anyway)?

And is this the case with either "Dolby Digital 5.1" or "Best Sound Available" selected? (not sure what's going on here...)
There have been more complaints about ATV4/4K audio then everything else combined including compression when compression was disabled. I haven't noticed that but gain matching is a bit of a trial. Of course I've always found gain matching to be a bit of a trial from when I got my first set-top box.

Apple is doing (at least) three things:
  1. Lowering volume when using voice commands
  2. Injecting navigation sounds over "background" audio (but not movies).
  3. Applying compressing when compression is enabled.
These are suggested as reasons why Apple doesn't do bitstream pass-through which is how Atmos is normally done.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13540 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
So curious WRGT 1080p HDR setting:

Is there actual 1080p HDR content (mastered that way - not apple converted somehow) available on the ATV4K, or is this setting primarily for those wanting to watch 4K HDR material on 1080p sets (ie ATV downconverts resolution but maintains HDR)?

Wasn't even sure 1080p HDR was an actual standard.

Also, after adding the ATV to my Harmony, there is a "Display Setting" button. What does it do - take you directly to that part of the menu, or is there a way to directly / discreetly select display modes?

(Haven't had time to try Harmony, and that hub is in PJ system, but currently playing with ATV on another one...)

Thanks!
Mine has “VideoMode” but I don’t see a “Display Setting” command either on the remote or in the Harmony PC app. VideoMode cycles through the various video format options in the Video and Audio section.

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post #13541 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
I am not sure what you mean when you say AC3 is re-encoded from the LPCM decode.
Using iTunes movies as an example.
  1. The (E)AC-3 stream is decoded into LPCM.
  2. The LPCM channels are adjusted as required.
  3. If
    • you select BQ audio the 2/6/8 LPCM channels are passed out via HDMI
    • you select DD audio no more than six of the LPCM channels are re-encoded as AC-3 and passed out via HDMI.
    • you select stereo there's a mixdown to FL/FR and those channels are sent.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13542 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Using iTunes movies as an example.
  1. The (E)AC-3 stream is decoded into LPCM.
  2. The LPCM channels are adjusted as required.
  3. If
    • you select BQ audio the 2/6/8 LPCM channels are passed out via HDMI
    • you select DD audio no more than six of the LPCM channels are re-encoded as AC-3 and passed out via HDMI.
    • you select stereo there's a mixdown to FL/FR and those channels are sent.
This reads that if you are using DD bitstream from the Apple TV, it will take the AC3 source, decode it, re-encode it to LPCM, then re-encode it back to AC3 before it is sent to the AVR. Is that what you are saying?

The reason I ask is because E-AC3 decoders are required to be able to directly convert and output streams to AC3 without any re-encoding necessary so I am unsure how LPCM fits into this scenario.
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post #13543 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
it will take the AC3 source, decode it, re-encode it to LPCM, then re-encode it back to AC3 before it is sent to the AVR. Is that what you are saying?
No, decoding a bitstream (i.e. the output of a codec) results in LPCM. My (likely someone dated) understanding is that while it's not impossible to manipulate a Dolby bitstream it's much simpler to convert to LPCM, manipulate as needed and then hand off to output processing.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13544 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
Mine has “VideoMode” but I don’t see a “Display Setting” command either on the remote or in the Harmony PC app. VideoMode cycles through the various video format options in the Video and Audio section.
My bad - Video Mode is what I was referencing. So it only cycles through the entire list? Any way to specify which modes it cycles through (as opposed to all)?

Just wondering if there is any way to have direct one-button (or simple macro) access to specific video modes.

Thanks
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post #13545 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
...These are suggested as reasons why Apple doesn't do bitstream pass-through which is how Atmos is normally done.
Or surround audio generally - even if its only 5.1 or 7.1, AFAIK.

Seems like apple could still inject their pleasant ambient navigation sounds into the UI, but (as with Native video modes) switch to "bitstream" upon playback. Just couldn't have those little sounds with the swipe down / swipe around menus etc... I guess though. I've got all those added sounds turned off anyway, so it wouldn't bother me any it that's what it took.
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post #13546 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
No, decoding a bitstream (i.e. the output of a codec) results in LPCM. My (likely someone dated) understanding is that while it's not impossible to manipulate a Dolby bitstream it's much simpler to convert to LPCM, manipulate as needed and then hand off to output processing.
Sure, I guess the point I was trying to make is that if you are using the Dolby Digital output setting and take an E-AC3 source on the Apple TV, it should be directly converted to AC3, then it is passed via bitstream to the AVR/Pre-pro which then decodes and converts to LPCM and then it hits the amplification stage. So in that scenario there is no decoding or encoding occurring in the Apple TV, it happens outside at the AVR/Pre-pro stage.

Basically changing the audio output setting on the Apple TV it is down to where you want the decoding to occur. I do realize that the Apple TV documentation does use the word "re-encode" but that should not be necessary if the source format is E-AC3.
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post #13547 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post

Just wondering if there is any way to have direct one-button (or simple macro) access to specific video modes.
No but if you use the "recommended" settings of [email protected] SDR, where x is your preferred resolution and y your preferred framerate, with Match there's no need to select specific modes.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13548 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
My bad - Video Mode is what I was referencing. So it only cycles through the entire list? Any way to specify which modes it cycles through (as opposed to all)?



Just wondering if there is any way to have direct one-button (or simple macro) access to specific video modes.



Thanks


I’m sure you could create an activity sequence such as executing the VideoMode command twice to go two modes up for example but you’d need to keep track of where it’s at each time. The reason I don’t use that command is because I’m using Match and 4K SDR and I just let the device figure it out. I’m learning it does a pretty good job without my intervention.


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post #13549 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
Sure, I guess the point I was trying to make is that if you are using the Dolby Digital output setting and take an E-AC3 source on the Apple TV, it should be directly converted to AC3, then it is passed via bitstream
But it isn't. Apple is always ready to manipulate* the audio and everyone that's looked at it has come to the conclusion that the Apple audio document is right and manipulations are done in the LPCM "domain".

*You can't disable Siri

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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I’m sorry but it doesn’t bother anyone that a forum moderator can take advantage of their being a moderator to stick a forsale add in their signature tag line?

That doesn’t seem right to me......
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post #13551 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
No but if you use the "recommended" settings of [email protected] SDR, where x is your preferred resolution and y your preferred framerate, with Match there's no need to select specific modes.
Well there is though if you prefer not to upscale everything and/ or display doesn't auto determine bt2020 or rec709, like a JVC RS5xx or RS6xx.

The match functionality is fantastic, but I've used one-button macros via Harmony so family can (in theory) easily manage all this.

Just select 4K movie or HD movie, and it shoots an IR command to HDFury to send an appropriate EDID for that profile (SD or HD, resolution and frame rate) and then the appropriate Color space IR command to the PJ. Source components shift into appropriate HDMI mode and resolution with the EDID change.

So with the ATV, aside from 1080p material being upscaled (if you pick 4Kxx) or 4K being downscaled (if you pick 1080xx) either browsing the UI could be in the wrong color space or the movie is, until you specify the proper one to the PJ.

I realize some people upscale everything to 4K (and it looks like the ATV does a good job with it, and I just may need to go that route when using ATV for practicality), and their displays might likely auto switch color space. Easy then.

Another note is that the ATV doesn't seem to work well or at all with the HDFury Integral at its output, like a number of other devices will (with the exception of the Panasonic ub-900, unless something has changed). Still playing with this, however... So my old method is a no go so far due in part to this roadblock.
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So, do you have to reconnect your Apple TV to Xcode after every restart to use the dev HUD or, am I doing something wrong?

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post #13553 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
Another note is that the ATV doesn't seem to work well or at all with the HDFury Integral at its output,
The HDFury devices can be fussy. I have a Vertex and it only works correctly when directly upstream of my display. I suspect Apple makes full use of the HDMI specification and the HDFury people solve problems when confronted by them. It took a while before the Vertex would handle DV correctly.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13554 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
The HDFury devices can be fussy. I have a Vertex and it only works correctly when directly upstream of my display. I suspect Apple makes full use of the HDMI specification and the HDFury people solve problems when confronted by them. It took a while before the Vertex would handle DV correctly.
I hear you. I've been through it with the HDF. Chose to skip Vertex in hopes everybody would get their stuff together and things would work w/out needing a bridge box.

But it's a handy thing, and I've moved it from where you have yours (upstream of display) to output of streaming device, then into Oppo 203 for HDR->SDR bt2020 treatment.

HDFury and Celerity fiber cable (which feeds PJ) also have intermittent unexplained sync issues which I got tired of fighting, and found it does what I need located in between those 2 devices.
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I’m sorry but it doesn’t bother anyone that a forum moderator can take advantage of their being a moderator to stick a forsale add in their signature tag line?
No
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So, do you have to reconnect your Apple TV to Xcode after every restart to use the dev HUD or, am I doing something wrong?
Unless your MAC is disconnecting (going to sleep or unpairing) you should reconnect automatically on a reboot.

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post #13557 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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So, do you have to reconnect your Apple TV to Xcode after every restart
It depends on what you mean by "restart". So far I only have to reconnect after an update.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #13558 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 04:34 PM
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can't play 5.1 through ATV4K

I've been trying to get netflix and amazon on my ATV to pass 5.1 to my yamaha a3060 (connected with HDMI) but for some reason it shows PCM but only shows left, right, and sub - even for 5.1 programs. Passes Dolby TV just fine. I tried the ATV surround setting to best available, to Dolby 5.1, but it doesn't seem to want to show 5.1 ... "Info" button on the 3060 shows 2 channel stereo. I have the latest 11.3 software - is there some setting I might have changed inadvertently?
Thanks!

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post #13559 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by iang153 View Post
I've been trying to get netflix and amazon on my ATV to pass 5.1 to my yamaha a3060 (connected with HDMI) but for some reason it shows PCM but only shows left, right, and sub - even for 5.1 programs. I tried the ATV surround setting to best available, to Dolby 5.1, but it doesn't seem to want to show 5.1 ... 11.3 software - is there some setting I might have changed inadvertently?
Thanks!
Known issue. It's either Apple or Amazon's fault, depending on who you ask.
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post #13560 of 25483 Old 03-16-2018, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been trying to get netflix and amazon on my ATV to pass 5.1 to my yamaha a3060 (connected with HDMI) but for some reason it shows PCM but only shows left, right, and sub - even for 5.1 programs.
FYI: There's a separate thread for ATV beta users. It's best to post there is you're running tvOS beta. E.g. Amazon audio can vary from production to beta.

However -- first set Surround Sound to Best Quality Available. Dolby Digital is for devices that don't accept 7.1 LPCM.

These features should show stereo or multi-channel as indicated for current production and beta releases:

Amazon (today at my house):
The Grand Tour : 5.1
The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel : Stereo

Netflix:
Longmire : 5.1
The World's Most Extraordinary Homes : Stereo.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
UDP-203/ATV4K(6,2)/X3500/LG C8
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apple 4k tv , Apple Tv Mc572ll A , Apple Tv Md199ll A , grainy , hdr , issue , Samsung

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