Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post - Page 484 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14491 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 04:47 PM
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Just checked mine, I have been out of pocket. Lost in Space fired up, but then two different Punishers crashed. It is funny, the DV logo is popping up on the error screen LOL. Nothing more hi-tech than a error screen in DV.
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post #14492 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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My ATVKs talk to Netflix via IPv6, my working LG app and CCU use IPv4. I suppose I should check that too.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14493 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:08 PM
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I've yet to experience this anomaly. What programs is it happening most often on?

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post #14494 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
I've yet to experience this anomaly. What programs is it happening most often on?


With your ATV 4K settings set to 4K SDR and match frame rate and range turned on, it should happen if you try to watch a DV show on Netflix, such as Altered Carbon.
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post #14495 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
Here's hoping it gets resolved soon.
It really looks like the problem is with the new ATV Netflix app. No problems in Netflix DV on my Sony TV. Netflix runs fine on my Shield (but of course, no DV there). I don't see how it can be a network/ISP issue.

You have to be out of your mind to try to call tech support to report this issue. You'll spend 20 minutes going through their scripted trouble shooting which of course will do no good. Tried to find an email address for Netflix but couldn't.

I refuse to set my default ATV output to HDR. I find HDR for a non HDR sourced source is hideous.

Assuming the ATV Netflix app is buggy, this will take a very long time for Netflix to acknowledge the problem, find it, fix it, test it (certainly as well as they tested the current app) and then submit it to Apple.

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post #14496 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ROMIL View Post
With your ATV 4K settings set to 4K SDR and match frame rate and range turned on, it should happen if you try to watch a DV show on Netflix, such as Altered Carbon.
Yup.

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post #14497 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
I've yet to experience this anomaly. What programs is it happening most often on?
Sup Wabs,
I haven’t seen this phenomenon either. I have the 4KSDR with match frame/range settings as well. Must have checked Altered Carbon a dozen times last night. I guess us Vinkings fans can win one once in a while.
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post #14498 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:50 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Just experienced this with Altered Carbon...switched to the Netflix app on my C7. It’s always something...
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post #14499 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Little View Post
I refuse to set my default ATV output to HDR. I find HDR for a non HDR sourced source is hideous.
You can leave Match on. Ah, you probably meant non-Match apps. Nevermind.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14500 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 05:56 PM
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Mine works perfectly after changing the DNS on my router and blocking Google DNS.

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post #14501 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
My ATVKs talk to Netflix via IPv6, my working LG app and CCU use IPv4. I suppose I should check that too.
That didn't help. I'm still talking to the same NYC nodes using IPv6 or IPv4.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14502 of 25652 Old 04-16-2018, 07:26 PM
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Wait what happened overnight with Apple TV 4K and Dolby Vision. It was working perfectly on my TCL P 605 but when I tried to play Lost in Space its like a purple negative image? My internal Roku app has no issues with DV playback.
UPDATE: Switched from 4K SDR to Dolby Vision then back to 4K SDR and its working fine now.

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post #14503 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 12:40 AM
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My ATV is set to 4K SDR with match frame and range both on, and all my DV titles in Netflix work just fine, including altered carbon. Hard wired to my router and using OpenDNS.

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post #14504 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 12:59 AM
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I didn't change my DNS and yet Netflix HDR now works with SDR 4K and match settings enabled.

Still think there's something off with this Netflix app update because I had to go back into video settings, enable HDR and reselect SDR 4K to get HDR with matching to work; was only showing 4K ultra HD with no HDR or DV logo in pulldown. So, initially, Altered Carbon launched in SDR 4K with those settings; enabling HDR and toggling back to 4K SDR got match dynamic range working again. This wasn't a problem for a long time; I'd get dynamic range matching with the SDR 4K and match enabled without having to turn on HDR so frequently. Just did this yesterday while giving up on dynamic range match working on this app.

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post #14505 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 04:20 AM
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Altered Carbon and The Defenders working here now in 4K SDR with match ON.

I switched back to SDR from HDR. Because of what others have posted I tried several episodes. I then went out of Netflix and back in. Then I force closed Netflix and restarted it. Still shows that didn't work yesterday work now.

No guarantee it will stay that way and all very odd!
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post #14506 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 05:13 AM
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Tried and working now here aswell.Tried AC .Hope it stays working..

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post #14507 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 08:25 AM
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Netflix appears to be working on my end with 4K SDR/YCbCr/4:2:0 and Match Content ON/ON.

That's was no fun!

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post #14508 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bguzman View Post
Sup Wabs,
I haven’t seen this phenomenon either. I have the 4KSDR with match frame/range settings as well. Must have checked Altered Carbon a dozen times last night. I guess us Vinkings fans can win one once in a while.
We'll take whatever win we can get. No matter how small.
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post #14509 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 01:21 PM
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Can anyone with a DV-compatible TV (preferably an LG OLED) comment on any differences they see between a 4K DV signal (from Netflix or iTunes) from their ATV4K vs. an HDR10 version of that same title if they force the ATV4K to convert DV into HDR10?

The reason I ask is because my LG B6 cannot accept DV at 60Hz; DV stuff must be at 30Hz or less. In the past, I have kept Match Frame Rate turned on, which would cause most DV content to transmit at its native 24Hz rate, so my TV's 30Hz limit on DV hasn't been a problem. But the ATV4K does such a great job processing motion with 3:2 pulldown (i.e. internally converting 24Hz content into a 60Hz signal), that I am considering just leaving the ATV4K at 60Hz with Match Frame Rate turned off.

My when B6 gets a 24Hz/24fps signal (i.e. virtually all movies and scripted TV series), the judder looks pretty harsh to me unless I apply a bit of artificial smoothing with LG's TruMotion feature. But, so far, if I let the ATV4K convert the 24fps content into 60Hz, motion looks great to me with the TV's TruMotion processing turned completely off. I'm going to keep trying this for awhile on various content. But part of me kinda hates to forego watching stuff in DV if the highlights and shadow detail aren't as good when DV content is converted to HDR10.
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post #14510 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 01:59 PM
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Can anyone with a DV-compatible TV (preferably an LG OLED) comment on any differences they see between a 4K DV signal (from Netflix or iTunes) from their ATV4K vs. an HDR10 version of that same title if they force the ATV4K to convert DV into HDR10?

The reason I ask is because my LG B6 cannot accept DV at 60Hz; DV stuff must be at 30Hz or less. In the past, I have kept Match Frame Rate turned on, which would cause most DV content to transmit at its native 24Hz rate, so my TV's 30Hz limit on DV hasn't been a problem. But the ATV4K does such a great job processing motion with 3:2 pulldown (i.e. internally converting 24Hz content into a 60Hz signal), that I am considering just leaving the ATV4K at 60Hz with Match Frame Rate turned off.

My when B6 gets a 24Hz/24fps signal (i.e. virtually all movies and scripted TV series), the judder looks pretty harsh to me unless I apply a bit of artificial smoothing with LG's TruMotion feature. But, so far, if I let the ATV4K convert the 24fps content into 60Hz, motion looks great to me with the TV's TruMotion processing turned completely off. I'm going to keep trying this for awhile on various content. But part of me kinda hates to forego watching stuff in DV if the highlights and shadow detail aren't as good when DV content is converted to HDR10.
Been away from this thread for a while, does what was found in the HDTVTest YT vid still apply here?

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post #14511 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
Been away from this thread for a while, does what was found in the HDTVTest YT vid still apply here?
Yes, thanks, that gets exactly to the question I was posing. I wonder if Apple has made any changes in the tvOS software since that video was made which improves the DV to HDR10 conversion process? Sounds like Apple isn't doing a very good job of the conversion given that they're arbitrarily assigning min and max CLL values of 400 and 1000 to all the artificial HDR10 profiles they create.

So, as I figured, leaving the output frame rate at a fixed 60Hz will be a trade-off for me between (possibly) overall better motion vs. sub-optimal HDR (mainly in the form of blown-out highlights).
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post #14512 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
Altered Carbon and The Defenders working here now in 4K SDR with match ON.

No guarantee it will stay that way and all very odd!
All good here too with no change in tvOS or the Netflix app. I imagine Netflix would prefer not to have back-end glitches like this so it would be nice if there was a channel to communicate these problems back to them.
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post #14513 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 05:23 PM
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Yes, thanks, that gets exactly to the question I was posing. I wonder if Apple has made any changes in the tvOS software since that video was made which improves the DV to HDR10 conversion process? Sounds like Apple isn't doing a very good job of the conversion given that they're arbitrarily assigning min and max CLL values of 400 and 1000 to all the artificial HDR10 profiles they create.

So, as I figured, leaving the output frame rate at a fixed 60Hz will be a trade-off for me between (possibly) overall better motion vs. sub-optimal HDR (mainly in the form of blown-out highlights).
Exactly what I was wondering, and this is why I have been avoiding using the ATV4K for my streaming HDR content viewing (which is most HDR content on Netflix; my display doesn't support DV, only HDR-10).

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post #14514 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Been away from this thread for a while, does what was found in the HDTVTest YT vid still apply here?
Maybe. While the DV to HDR10 conversion now produces different, per scene, meta-data you would still have to plug a current tone mapped image into Vincent's test and see how things look.
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I wonder if Apple has made any changes in the tvOS software since that video was made which improves the DV to HDR10 conversion process?
Maybe. Rumor has it that HDR10 is subject to display whims while DV is more likely to be "consistent". So the rendered HDR10 image may be largely independent of Apple or anyone's process.

This is actually fairly complicated and there are no simple answers. Your best bet is to attempt to assess some tone mapping in both cases while ignoring motion issues and see what you think you're giving up.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14515 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 06:27 PM
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1) Sure.
2) I don't believe there's a way to know this for sure across all apps. In all the examples I've looked at forcing SDR results in a 2K stream (or less as seen in the above 720p Netflix example) but apps can source what they want. I normally only check iTunes and Netflix since I no longer care what Amazon and Vudu are not doing.

[edit] the 720p may be because the stream didn't have time to get to 1080p.
This has pretty far-reaching implications if it applies to most movies. If you force SDR by setting the ATV default to, say, 4k SDR and turning off range matching, you will only ever get an HD stream. This might surprise a lot of people who have a 4k display that isn't HDR capable (admittedly, maybe mostly projector owners). They may think they're getting a 4k stream because the ATV is upscaling, but they're not. Have a got this right?

On the face of it, there may be some sense in this. Pretty much all 4k content on the streaming services seems to be HDR or DV. Apple would have to implement their own tone mapping to turn these streams into SDR, and maybe they just didn't want to do that, so they use the HD SDR stream instead. I'm guessing there aren't separate 4k SDR streams they could use. Do you think that's the case?

But is there any native non-HDR 4k content on the services? If so, would the HD stream be used for those too?

Interesting subject...
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post #14516 of 25652 Old 04-17-2018, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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1) They may think they're getting a 4k stream because the ATV is upscaling, but they're not. Have a got this right?
2) I'm guessing there aren't separate 4k SDR streams they could use. Do you think that's the case?
3) But is there any native non-HDR 4k content on the services? If so, would the HD stream be used for those too?
1) Yes.
2) Not for Apple.
3) I'm sure Netflix has 4K/SDR streams for devices, like the 4K TiVo, that don't do HDR. At least the Netflix badging changes in response to device/display changes. YouTube has 4K/SDR streams. Amazon may.

Netflix is a special case. They've said their master 4K assets are DV but they generate an endless selection of video formats. It wouldn't surprise me if they do full-on post chain management and have static assets in various formats and do real-time scaling of those assets for bandwidth limits. It also wouldn't surprise if they have assets for every common circumstance. Netflix on the ATV4K probably does DV to HDR10 in the ATV because it's easy. They are reasonably open about this so it's probably all written down somewhere.
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post #14517 of 25652 Old 04-18-2018, 02:00 AM
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1) Yes.
2) Not for Apple.
3) I'm sure Netflix has 4K/SDR streams for devices, like the 4K TiVo, that don't do HDR. At least the Netflix badging changes in response to device/display changes. YouTube has 4K/SDR streams. Amazon may.

Netflix is a special case. They've said their master 4K assets are DV but they generate an endless selection of video formats. It wouldn't surprise me if they do full-on post chain management and have static assets in various formats and do real-time scaling of those assets for bandwidth limits. It also wouldn't surprise if they have assets for every common circumstance. Netflix on the ATV4K probably does DV to HDR10 in the ATV because it's easy. They are reasonably open about this so it's probably all written down somewhere.
OK, thanks for all that. I think I've got all I need to make some informed decisions now!
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post #14518 of 25652 Old 04-18-2018, 05:45 AM
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Rumor has it that HDR10 is subject to display whims while DV is more likely to be "consistent". So the rendered HDR10 image may be largely independent of Apple or anyone's process.
I wouldn't call this a rumour. DV, by design, attempts to give "the studio" control of how the image is presented (within the capabilities of the display). There is Dolby supplied software (and sometimes hardware) running on the display, which has been configured with an understanding of that display and attempts to recreate "the vision" with limited user modification (often there are options for a "bright mode" and a "dark mode" for example). Dolby have to make certain assumptions about how the display performs, based on averages, so a calibrator with precise information can tweak the image to get even closer to that vision, but the TV manufacturer is otherwise out of the loop.

HDR10 (including HDR10+) is philosophically the opposite. The source device provides metadata on either the entire movie or the scene (with HDR10+) and it is left to the TV manufacturer (and to a somewhat greater extent the user) to decide how to interpret this and bring out the best in their device.

Which approach people prefer is up to them. We haven't had a chance to see how HDR10+ works in practice on a wide variety of content yet, but mostly people seem to prefer DV over HDR10. How much of that is down to it's "dynamic" nature, which HDR10+ will "fix" and how much due to the end-to-end control, I guess we will find out in time.
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post #14519 of 25652 Old 04-18-2018, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't call this a rumour. DV, by design, attempts to give "the studio" control
I phrased it that way because Dolby* has explicitly said they give companies latitude in configuration. Dolby "suggests" they don't use that latitude but, according to Dolby, it's there. This belief is regularly used to explain why DV discs lock many of the OPPO image controls when it's more likely prohibited by authoring. BDA is to blame not Dolby.

*Interview with some Dolby VP. I don't have a link handy,

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14520 of 25652 Old 04-18-2018, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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with limited user modification (often there are options for a "bright mode" and a "dark mode" for example).
In the case of my C7 I can change two lightness controls in DV mode. One is purported to break tone mapping and the other is purported to have a completely unexpected effect on DV. Presumably these are reasons why Dolby would prefer you not have these controls. By the way the currently unreleased in the US (i.e. beta) firmware for my display appears to minimize these controls, at least with some content from my ATV.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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