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post #14551 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Dymek View Post
I have a Vizio p series from 2016. 4K enhanced mode is on on the Denon and uhd full color is enabled on the tv. I can get hdr via my Samsung uhd player. And yes if I bypass the Denon Dolby vision works.
Check the Vizio P series thread, with Vizio's latest firmware lots of people are having issues with DV and their AVRs. Not an Apple issue.
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post #14552 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
I'm not sure I understand the distinction.
When you said “adaptive” I thought you were talking about what LG is calling *enhanced* HDR which is enabled with Dynamic Contrast on the 2017 LG OLEDs.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14553 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 11:02 AM
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A bit off topic,but since I use a Lumagen Pro Radiance at home and install them as well and wondering if there is any streaming device that sends the same (native)resolution of the source to the output. I know Apple does follow the frame rate and HDR of the source,but the resolution is typically always 4k. This screws up the ability to take advantage of the state of the art scaling and Darbee built into the Lumagen. The Roku is one size fits all output as well. Thanks for any input!
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post #14554 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naustin View Post
Check the Vizio P series thread, with Vizio's latest firmware lots of people are having issues with DV and their AVRs. Not an Apple issue.
I don’t think it’s the tv if I bypass the receiver it works fine.
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post #14555 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dymek View Post
I don’t think it’s the tv if I bypass the receiver it works fine.
The current Vizio firmware is causing an issue with 60hz HDR signals when passing through an AVR. A workaround that seems to work for most is enabling Full UHD Color on every HDMI input (this may require you to swap a cable to each input to make it "active," then turning on Full UHD Color).
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post #14556 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dymek View Post
I don’t think it’s the tv if I bypass the receiver it works fine.
Notice I said DV and AVRs, if you don't go through an AVR your ATV4K is fine on a P series. Good luck.
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post #14557 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
1) Yes.
2) Not for Apple.
3) I'm sure Netflix has 4K/SDR streams for devices, like the 4K TiVo, that don't do HDR. At least the Netflix badging changes in response to device/display changes. YouTube has 4K/SDR streams. Amazon may.

Netflix is a special case. They've said their master 4K assets are DV but they generate an endless selection of video formats. It wouldn't surprise me if they do full-on post chain management and have static assets in various formats and do real-time scaling of those assets for bandwidth limits. It also wouldn't surprise if they have assets for every common circumstance. Netflix on the ATV4K probably does DV to HDR10 in the ATV because it's easy. They are reasonably open about this so it's probably all written down somewhere.
I did a quick test, and with 4K SDR on, and matching off, verified using the developer HUD:

iTunes movies: HDR 4K plays at full 4K, whereas 4K DV plays at 1080p
Netflix: All 4K play at 4K
Amazon Prime Video: All 4K play at 4K

Turning matching back on fixes it so DV plays at 4K again.

Separate from above, but something interesting I noticed. I have some older DV redemptions (The Hangover, The Incredible Hulk) that have had 4K HDR or DolbyVision releases, and these play in SD but the HDR and DV badges appear during playback. (Obviously with matching on). It's too bad we can't pay a small fee to upgrade to 4K!
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post #14558 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 01:10 PM
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Hi
Was wondering if anyone could point me in a direction or has the answers.

I bought a 4kDV movie through my Apple tv4k and was wondering why is it when I download it on my computer hard drive it’s only 720p and 2 channel audio?

Is there a way to purchase 4K/DV movies on Apple TV 4K and keep them on an external or NAS drive but also retain DV plus surround sound? If not how can I do it?

I realize there might be DRM issues but if I set up a iTunes library on a NAS shouldn’t I be able to put them there and stream on the Apple TV through something like Infuse?

Are Vudu downloads easier to deal with?

Sorry if these questions have been asked, i’m Just learning about how I can do this. Many thanks
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post #14559 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ronin22 View Post
Hi
Was wondering if anyone could point me in a direction or has the answers.

I bought a 4kDV movie through my Apple tv4k and was wondering why is it when I download it on my computer hard drive it’s only 720p and 2 channel audio?

Is there a way to purchase 4K/DV movies on Apple TV 4K and keep them on an external or NAS drive but also retain DV plus surround sound? If not how can I do it?

I realize there might be DRM issues but if I set up a iTunes library on a NAS shouldn’t I be able to put them there and stream on the Apple TV through something like Infuse?

Are Vudu downloads easier to deal with?

Sorry if these questions have been asked, i’m Just learning about how I can do this. Many thanks
Apple does NOT download 4K.

Quote:
You can download a local copy of an HD movie to your iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, Mac, or PC, and you might be able to download HDR and Dolby Vision versions to your iOS devices, but you can't download a 4K version.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207949
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post #14560 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
When you said “adaptive” I thought you were talking about what LG is calling *enhanced* HDR which is enabled with Dynamic Contrast on the 2017 LG OLEDs.
That's fair. I was being pedantic and arguably loose with my concepts, at the same time. In my opinion, I consider all the following to be "tone mapping" in HDR10.

1. Crush/truncate all highlight content above the display's capabilities.
2. Roll off the high end of the source content so that details above the display's capabilities can be preserved -- with a single curve that ignores metadata.
3. Roll off the high end of the source content so that details above the display's capabilities can be preserved -- with different curves that rely on meta data -- one curve for an entire piece of content.
4. Roll off the high end of the source content so that details above the display's capabilities can be preserved -- with a curve that changes based on the actual content's content, probably many times during a single piece of content, smartly enough that one doesn't seem things like pumping artifacts.

And I would call the 2017 LG OLED approach (when enabled) #4 . I would call the Oppo "HDROFF2020" approach another version of #4 .

And I would say none of those 4 approaches are official, sanctified, codified industry standards.

But I'm just splitting hairs or arguing semantics. I don't think I disagree with your hypothesis, per se. I think you are defining terms a little differently than I am. IE, that #4 isn't just Tone Mapping, but something more. In that case, I agree, the balance falls even more in favor of DV.
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post #14561 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 02:04 PM
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"You can download a local copy of an HD movie to your iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, Mac, or PC, and you might be able to download HDR and Dolby Vision versions to your iOS devices, but you can't download a 4K version."

I would love to know how to force this 1080p HDR download! Anyone doing this successfully?
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post #14562 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Uppsalaing View Post
We don't know that it ever will support this.... If and when it does, it will be a bonus...
There was an article last summer where an Apple spokesperson claimed that the ATV 4K would get Dolby Atmos. But of course they committed to any timeframe.
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post #14563 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuck Sonido View Post
There was an article last summer where an Apple spokesperson claimed that the ATV 4K would get Dolby Atmos. But of course they committed to any timeframe.


Wow. This whispering game is getting old
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post #14564 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That's fair. I was being pedantic and arguably loose with my concepts, at the same time.
To clarify -- this is a list of OTT/BD HDR systems getting traction (i.e. I'm excluding HLG):
Graded HDR10 -- static metadata
Graded DV -- dynamic metadata
HDR10 with non-graded machine generated post-distribution dynamic metadata (e.g. done in the player or display)
HDR10+ purported to be with machine generated post-production dynamic metadata (e.g. done before distribution)

My point in response to the OP was that graded HDR10 and graded DV (master sources) will look different on properly set-up displays. I would also be surprised if post-distribution machine generated dynamic HDR10 metadata matched graded DV metadata.

Of course right now I'm sure the display is dominating differences because of tone mapping bugs (or liberties).
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14565 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 06:10 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Anyone having HDCP handshake issues with the Amazon app? Bosch Season 3 specifically? I keep getting an error that says to ensure my device is hdcp compatible. My soundbar Sony ST5000 has enhanced HDMI turned on and this problem just cropped up. No problem using Netflix 4K DV and running Amazon through my XB1X hooked to the sound bar works fine, too. I’m starting to think this Amazon app is more of a joke than I originally thought.


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post #14566 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 06:46 PM
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Yep. I had to watch season 4 in 1080p. Didn’t matter too much since it was using my non HDR tv.
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post #14567 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpvrana View Post
I did a quick test, and with 4K SDR on, and matching off, verified using the developer HUD:

iTunes movies: HDR 4K plays at full 4K, whereas 4K DV plays at 1080p
Netflix: All 4K play at 4K
Amazon Prime Video: All 4K play at 4K

Turning matching back on fixes it so DV plays at 4K again.

Another funny note, I have some older DV redemptions (The Hangover, The Incredible Hulk) that have had 4K HDR or DolbyVision releases, and these play in SD but the HDR and DV badges appear during playback. It's too bad we can't pay a small fee to upgrade to 4K!
That's interesting. By "plays at", do you mean they use that stream? With those settings, I suppose everything would output at 4k, upscaled if necessary. If the 4k HDR stream is used for HDR content, that means Apple must be doing tone mapping to get to SDR.

So even Netflix DV uses a 4k stream? I wonder whether, for a DV or HDR movie, Netflix is using the DV or HDR stream and tone mapping to SDR, or if they use a different 4k SDR stream. Any way to tell?

Be interesting to hear what @bodosom thinks about your tests.
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post #14568 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sddawson View Post
That's interesting. By "plays at", do you mean they use that stream? With those settings, I suppose everything would output at 4k, upscaled if necessary. If the 4k HDR stream is used for HDR content, that means Apple must be doing tone mapping to get to SDR.

So even Netflix DV uses a 4k stream? I wonder whether, for a DV or HDR movie, Netflix is using the DV or HDR stream and tone mapping to SDR, or if they use a different 4k SDR stream. Any way to tell?

Be interesting to hear what @bodosom thinks about your tests.
It's certainly easy to see that they are SD, and it's confirmed when I have the HUD up that they are well below 1080p. So it would seem that the DV colour mapping works independently from the stream quality.
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post #14569 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mpvrana View Post
It's certainly easy to see that they are SD, and it's confirmed when I have the HUD up that they are well below 1080p. So it would seem that the DV colour mapping works independently from the stream quality.
Sorry, not with you. We were taking about HDR/SDR, 4k/1080. What source do you see playing at less than 1080?
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post #14570 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sddawson View Post
Sorry, not with you. We were taking about HDR/SDR, 4k/1080. What source do you see playing at less than 1080?
I have two older blu-ray films that had SD digital codes redeemed (Incredible Hulk and The Hangover). Now when I play them, they *are not* upgraded to 4K, but they do get HDR and DV badges displayed even though they are definitely lower than 4K, and even lower than 1080p resolution.
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post #14571 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mpvrana View Post
It's certainly easy to see that they are SD, and it's confirmed when I have the HUD up that they are well below 1080p. So it would seem that the DV colour mapping works independently from the stream quality.
I don't think I'm seeing those results. At least in iTunes which is all I looked at.

Using [email protected] SDR with Match off/off everything I checked was an SDR stream. One "native" 4K asset was sent as 2K. All the other 4K assets I checked were sent as 4K. So one out of eight in my sample. If you're changing video formats don't forget to force quite the player.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #14572 of 25483 Old 04-19-2018, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpvrana View Post
I have two older blu-ray films that had SD digital codes redeemed (Incredible Hulk and The Hangover). Now when I play them, they *are not* upgraded to 4K, but they do get HDR and DV badges displayed even though they are definitely lower than 4K, and even lower than 1080p resolution.
This has happened to me! The latest example I had was the Expendables 1 which was an XML redeem for SD. I was getting SD with Dolby Vision. Crazy, but true! This is also an example of the only time I've seen iTunes making an upgrade available in the iTunes store. I was able to buy the 4K/DV version of the title and now my SD version is gone. The upgrade option pulldown menu was where the "Download" button is normally just below the "Play" button.

EDIT: I've also seen SD with Dolby Vision with rentals, but that's another story.

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post #14573 of 25483 Old 04-20-2018, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Canuck Sonido View Post
There was an article last summer where an Apple spokesperson claimed that the ATV 4K would get Dolby Atmos. But of course they committed to any timeframe.


It was one comment made by an unnamed Apple ‘source’. I would be inclined to go on the presumption that atmos isn’t going to happen this generation.


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post #14574 of 25483 Old 04-20-2018, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I don't think I'm seeing those results. At least in iTunes which is all I looked at.

Using [email protected] SDR with Match off/off everything I checked was an SDR stream. One "native" 4K asset was sent as 2K. All the other 4K assets I checked were sent as 4K. So one out of eight in my sample. If you're changing video formats don't forget to force quite the player.
Now I'm confused! Previously, you said that forcing SDR made everything pick up a 2K stream....
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post #14575 of 25483 Old 04-20-2018, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Now I'm confused! Previously, you said that forcing SDR made everything pick up a 2K stream....
Yeah, it did on that day. I sometimes wonder if providers periodically re-render streams or if there are some subtleties that I'm not noticing. I'll have to look at this more closely.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
"You can download a local copy of an HD movie to your iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, Mac, or PC, and you might be able to download HDR and Dolby Vision versions to your iOS devices, but you can't download a 4K version."

I would love to know how to force this 1080p HDR download! Anyone doing this successfully?
You can only download HDR movies to iOS devices that support wide color gamut, and can only view movies in 4K on Apple TV 4K. On PC/Mac you can only view/download HD.
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post #14577 of 25483 Old 04-20-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Maybe. Rumor has it that HDR10 is subject to display whims while DV is more likely to be "consistent". So the rendered HDR10 image may be largely independent of Apple or anyone's process.

This is actually fairly complicated and there are no simple answers. Your best bet is to attempt to assess some tone mapping in both cases while ignoring motion issues and see what you think you're giving up.
Thanks. I think the video embedded in the earlier post here does a pretty good job of letting me know what I'm giving up in terms of tone mapping in native DV vs. artificially converted HDR10. Granted, the reviewer in that video is using a 2017 LG B7 OLED and I have a 2016 LG B6 OLED, but close enough.

I think my game plan, for now anyway, will be to leave the ATV4K set to 4K 60 HDR10, with Dynamic Range Match turned on and Frame Rate Match turned off. I'm very pleased with how the ATV4K displays motion/judder at 60Hz across a range of content I've looked at. And while I was getting a weird flickering effect in near-blacks before with upscaled 4K at 24 Hz, I've yet to see that on my TV if I keep the ATV4K output at 60Hz. So that's another bonus. And the ATV4K does a better job of 4K upscaling than my TV or Yamaha receiver.

I've verified that the main apps I use -- Netflix, Hulu, Showtime, HBO, Channels, PBS -- all work with Dynamic Range Match so that everything switches to SDR for native SDR content (which is most or all of those apps' content).

When I watch the occasional DV movie in iTunes, I'll turn on Frame Rate Match, allowing the ATV4K to pass a 4K DV 24Hz signal to the TV. Otherwise, I'll keep Frame Rate Match turned off. Maybe a third of Netflix's 4K content is in DV. I'll probably just let the ATV4K convert that to HDR10 at 60Hz (i.e. Frame Rate Match off). From what I've seen so far in bits of Mindhunter and Lost in Space, it looked fine.
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post #14578 of 25483 Old 04-20-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by -griffy- View Post
You can only download HDR movies to iOS devices that support wide color gamut, and can only view movies in 4K on Apple TV 4K. On PC/Mac you can only view/download HD.
Thanks. So no way to download hdr and stream it to another device.
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post #14579 of 25483 Old 04-20-2018, 02:35 PM
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Yeah, it did on that day. I sometimes wonder if providers periodically re-render streams or if there are some subtleties that I'm not noticing. I'll have to look at this more closely.
Any findings gratefully accepted!
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post #14580 of 25483 Old 04-20-2018, 03:04 PM
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On PC/Mac you can only view/download HD.
True, but I don't understand why I can't watch 4K on my 5K iMac...

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