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post #17101 of 25610 Old 08-02-2018, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevetd View Post
Now that I’ve been schooled, I’m wondering, does the ATV4K decoded hi Rez audio and send it fully to pcm or does it downgrade it?
https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-4k/specs/

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17102 of 25610 Old 08-02-2018, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ario816 View Post
Wait so I can theoretically make like a Roku remote control the Apple TV? Any links/walkthroughs how to do this?
At least some Roku remotes are RF so they won't work. Any (sensible) IR remote with a minimal set of transport commands can control an ATV4/4k. Please refer to the first post in this thread for a link to that and other (possibly) useful information.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17103 of 25610 Old 08-02-2018, 10:58 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Don't confuse labels with codecs. I.e. Apple calls SDR+AVC hvc1, HDR10+HEVC qhvc and DV+HEVC qdh1. They also have Apple specific labels for audio codecs e.g. E-AC-3 is called qec3 and AC-3 is called qac3. Apple supported codecs for the ATV4k can be found on the [specs] page. By the way a UHD-BD can produce quite a bit more than three times the bandwidth of a 25Mb iTunes HDR stream.
Lol. Sure. Upon further digging, it indeed looks like a label (or even perhaps a container) rather than a codec itself. However, tvOS's playback info HUD can be quite misleading as it clearly displays as "codecs".



And yes, I'm well aware that 4K blu-rays can produce a bitrate in the neighborhood of 100Mbps.




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post #17104 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 12:28 AM
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I have the ATV 4K, latest firmware.

I have set 'Match Dynamic Range' and 'Match Frame Rate' to ON.

However, for some reason, it often reverts to OFF for both settings. I haven't made any changes to any settings when it happens. I just discover it because my movies are stuttering.

My ATV is connected to either my TV (Samsung) or my Projector (Vivitek) via my AV Receiver (SONY). None of them are 4K compatible.

Any ideas?

Thanks.
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post #17105 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post


Yes, I’m very familiar with those specs which is why I expected to see those displayed on my AVR.


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post #17106 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevetd View Post
does the ATV4K decoded hi Rez audio and send it fully to pcm or does it downgrade it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevetd View Post
Yes, I’m very familiar with those specs
Then you should clarify what you mean by "hi Rez".

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17107 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Then you should clarify what you mean by "hi Rez".
I was referring to TrueHD and DTS-HD. I believe the answer to the question is: No, it doesn't decode them and pass them on. I know it doesn't list them in the specs but, it also doesn't say that is decodes everything and passes it as PCM either. It was wishful thinking. Thanks.
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post #17108 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevetd View Post
I was referring to TrueHD and DTS-HD. I believe the answer to the question is: No, it doesn't decode them and pass them on. I know it doesn't list them in the specs but, it also doesn't say that is decodes everything and passes it as PCM either.
That's correct, there is no current support in iTunes for lossless cinema codecs. However the specs page describes what is accepted by Apple applications as input (and third party apps can do other things within system constraints) the fact that BQA output is M-PCM is documented elsewhere.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17109 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pallec View Post
I have the ATV 4K, latest firmware.

I have set 'Match Dynamic Range' and 'Match Frame Rate' to ON.

However, for some reason, it often reverts to OFF for both settings. I haven't made any changes to any settings when it happens. I just discover it because my movies are stuttering.

My ATV is connected to either my TV (Samsung) or my Projector (Vivitek) via my AV Receiver (SONY). None of them are 4K compatible.

Any ideas?

Thanks.
Just a guess:

If none of your displays are 4k compatible, I am guessing they probably are not HDR capable. In that case, "match dynamic range" has no meaning because your entire system can only do one kind of dynamic range (SDR). That MIGHT explain what you are seeing with "match dynamic range."

I don't know for sure, but "match frame rate" might have a similar limitation or restriction. Note too that both of the "match" settings only work on select applications. Not all applications honor those choices. (But I don't think that if your problem, from what you describe.)
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post #17110 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 10:19 AM
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Hi all... I have a new setup, replacing a 15 year old setup, so I'm not familiar with a lot of new settings.


The system is a simple one: LG 55" C8, Denon AVR-X2500H, Sony UBP-X1000ES (which hasn't arrived yet) and Apple 4K TV.


The sources run into the AVR and come out HDMI to the display.



My problem is that I tried to turn on Chroma 4:2:2 on the Apple TV and was asked to turn ARC on, on the receiver, which I did. But I still got no signal on the display. Any thoughts on a solution? Also, any thoughts on whether it's worth it to turn 4:2:2 on?


Second question: is the Apple TV scaling everything up to 4K? If so, would it be better to let the display do that, and if so, what setting(s) should the ATV be set to?


Thanks for any help with these newbie questions!


Ed

Ed... I so value the resources and knowledge of AVSForum!
LG C8, Denon AVR-X4500H, Apple 4K TV, Sony UBP-X1000ES, 7.1.2 audio, (speakers = LCR-750 MKII for LCR with K-4 surrounds, V8 Movie sub, M&K K-7 rear surrounds, ELAC Debut 2.0 for FH)
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post #17111 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erudolph View Post
1) I tried to turn on Chroma 4:2:2 on the Apple TV and was asked to turn ARC on... any thoughts on whether it's worth it to turn 4:2:2 on?
2) Second question: is the Apple TV scaling everything up to 4K?
1) Don't worry about setting chroma.
2) If you set the UI to 4K then the ATV4K is scaling non 4K sources, this is true in general when there's a mismatch between the source/ATV4K and the display resolutions. Which device scales is personal choice. Simple integer scaling is easy but some scaling systems do much more. Some people like the much more, others don't.

Please read the first posting in this thread for various notes and links.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
UDP-203/ATV4K(6,2)/X3500/LG C8
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post #17112 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Just a guess:



If none of your displays are 4k compatible, I am guessing they probably are not HDR capable. In that case, "match dynamic range" has no meaning because your entire system can only do one kind of dynamic range (SDR). That MIGHT explain what you are seeing with "match dynamic range."



I don't know for sure, but "match frame rate" might have a similar limitation or restriction. Note too that both of the "match" settings only work on select applications. Not all applications honor those choices. (But I don't think that if your problem, from what you describe.)


No, I have a 1080p display upstairs with an ATV4K and it allows match range and frame rate so it’s not that. Good try though.


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post #17113 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 12:15 PM
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You assume that his 1080p display and your 1080p display present the same EDID info (and through the a/v reciever, in the middle, in his setup) to the ATV in both cases. That might be true. But it might not.

But yes, mine was just a guess in the first place. However, unless this is some strange bug, it is almost certainly triggered by the handshake info, which is mostly EDID info, coming from the receiver, probably based on what the TV is saying.

--

Maybe more important: The stutter the OP is seeing might be solvable other ways or created by something other than 50hz output.
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post #17114 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Just a guess:

If none of your displays are 4k compatible, I am guessing they probably are not HDR capable. In that case, "match dynamic range" has no meaning because your entire system can only do one kind of dynamic range (SDR). That MIGHT explain what you are seeing with "match dynamic range."

I don't know for sure, but "match frame rate" might have a similar limitation or restriction. Note too that both of the "match" settings only work on select applications. Not all applications honor those choices. (But I don't think that if your problem, from what you describe.)
Ive seen this happen due to some type of HDCP or HDMI handshaking or EDID not refreshing properly. Usually happens if I switch input from 4k30Hz device to 4kPassthrough device. My ATV4k connects to a Vertex that can send signal 4k30 through my AVR to TV or split signal send audio to my AVR and Video directly to TV

The apple TV doesn't update proper EDID capabilities until I toggle my TV input and refresh EDID info to the ATV4k.
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post #17115 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 03:32 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
You assume that his 1080p display and your 1080p display present the same EDID info (and through the a/v reciever, in the middle, in his setup) to the ATV in both cases. That might be true. But it might not.



But yes, mine was just a guess in the first place. However, unless this is some strange bug, it is almost certainly triggered by the handshake info, which is mostly EDID info, coming from the receiver, probably based on what the TV is saying.



--



Maybe more important: The stutter the OP is seeing might be solvable other ways or created by something other than 50hz output.


I wasn’t “assuming” anything. I was just using the facts presented in your post which was 1080p vs 4K. In any case matching frame rate makes sense to have in a 1080 set but matching range doesn’t.


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post #17116 of 25610 Old 08-03-2018, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smhealey View Post
Ive seen this happen due to some type of HDCP or HDMI handshaking or EDID not refreshing properly. Usually happens if I switch input from 4k30Hz device to 4kPassthrough device. My ATV4k connects to a Vertex that can send signal 4k30 through my AVR to TV or split signal send audio to my AVR and Video directly to TV

The apple TV doesn't update proper EDID capabilities until I toggle my TV input and refresh EDID info to the ATV4k.
Exactly. The ATV is likely to revert to the most compatible mode it can, based on the downstream (sink) devices, so that would be the most likely place to seek a solution. I'd guess the particular TV, but it wouldn't be the first time that a receiver messed things up, and cables can be another source of "failure" for a EDID to reach the ATV indicating the user's understanding of the full capability of the downstream system.
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post #17117 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pallec View Post
I have the ATV 4K, latest firmware.

I have set 'Match Dynamic Range' and 'Match Frame Rate' to ON.

However, for some reason, it often reverts to OFF for both settings.
Any ideas?
It's almost impossible to diagnose subtle problems at a distance but if the Apple TV thinks it's talking to a new device it will "reset" the video to a conservative choice. Most people only see this when the downstream device (AVR/TV/VP) changes. Note that dual (or multi) output AVRs can treat each output as a separate EDID entity. The ATV appears to be able to remember a small number (more than one) HDMI sinks but if anything in your video chain is fiddling the EDID you will see this. Likely suspects are the AVR, the display, a splitter, a switcher etc. Note that the more complex the device (say a Vertex vs. a monoprice HDMI switch) the more likely it is to have unexpected interactions.

The ATV uses EDID and CEC information to characterize the sink so there are a lot of moving parts involved.


Providing a complete inventory of your video chain is helpful when seeking remote assistance.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17118 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pallec View Post
I have the ATV 4K, latest firmware.

I have set 'Match Dynamic Range' and 'Match Frame Rate' to ON.

However, for some reason, it often reverts to OFF for both settings. I haven't made any changes to any settings when it happens. I just discover it because my movies are stuttering.

My ATV is connected to either my TV (Samsung) or my Projector (Vivitek) via my AV Receiver (SONY). None of them are 4K compatible.

Any ideas?

Thanks.
Dynamic Range matching will not work with any 1080P SDR device - TV, Projector, or AVR. That feature is specifically designed for equipment which is 4K/HDR/DV capable. At some point, your ATV 4K figures this out and turns off those settings, as they are useless with your current setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
No, I have a 1080p display upstairs with an ATV4K and it allows match range and frame rate so it’s not that. Good try though.
Are you sure about that? Your 1080P TV only knows one dynamic range . . . SDR. In fact the first generation of 4K TV's ( c. 2014 ) are also SDR ONLY. You must have some device in the middle between your ATV 4K and your 1080P TV which is "fooling" ( EDID ) the ATV 4K into thinking that your TV is HDR capable, or you haven't checked that setting recently and didn't realize that the ATV 4K had turned it off.
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post #17119 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
Dynamic Range matching will not work with any 1080P SDR device - TV, Projector, or AVR. That feature is specifically designed for equipment which is 4K/HDR/DV capable. At some point, your ATV 4K figures this out and turns off those settings, as they are useless with your current setup.







Are you sure about that? Your 1080P TV only knows one dynamic range . . . SDR. In fact the first generation of 4K TV's ( c. 2014 ) are also SDR ONLY. You must have some device in the middle between your ATV 4K and your 1080P TV which is "fooling" ( EDID ) the ATV 4K into thinking that your TV is HDR capable, or you haven't checked that setting recently and didn't realize that the ATV 4K had turned it off.


I am 100% sure. But because you are skeptical I am attaching a picture which is worth a thousand words. The TV is an 8 year old Mitsubishi and that little black box in the lower right is a 2018 ATV4K 32G. Nothing in the chain, nothing up my sleeve, no hidden components. If you look at the Video and Audio settings you can see both Match settings are on.
If you think I’m wrong let’s make a $100 bet. You live a few minutes from me...bring cash.



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post #17120 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
I am 100% sure. But because you are skeptical I am attaching a picture which is worth a thousand words. The TV is an 8 year old Mitsubishi and that little black box in the lower right is a 2018 ATV4K 32G. Nothing in the chain, nothing up my sleeve, no hidden components. If you look at the Video and Audio settings you can see both Match settings are on.

If you think I’m wrong let’s make a $100 bet. You live a few minutes from me...bring cash.
Interesting.

For comparison I am running tvOS 11.4.1 with the Apple TV 4K plugged directly into a compliant HDR UHD 2160p TV and as you will note in the first thumbnail below I have an option not included on your screen shot above called Enable HDR so it appears the ATV4K is smart enough to know your TV is not HDR capable.

Likewise your screenshot shows an option called Check Cable wheras mine doesn’t however that function is part of the process when clicking on the Enable HDR option as shown in the second thumbnail.

For what it’s worth here is what Apple support has to say on the subject...

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288

And like you say, a picture is worth a thousand words... and saved @sonoftumble a hundred dollars had he taken your bet without seeing your photo.

Edit: I also tested my settings mirroring the Format you are using (1080p SDR rather than 4K SDR) and the Enable HDR option still appears on my screen like the first thumbnail
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Samsung UN78HU9000 & SEK-3500U/ZA - Firmware 1540.3
Samsung UN40HU7000 & SEK-3500U/ZA - Firmware 1540.3
Samsung UBD-K8500 UHD Blu-ray Player; Apple TV 4K
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post #17121 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Interesting.



For comparison I am running tvOS 11.4.1 with the Apple TV 4K plugged directly into a compliant HDR UHD 2160p TV and as you will note in the first thumbnail below I have an option not included on your screen shot above called Enable HDR so it appears the ATV4K is smart enough to know your TV is not HDR capable.



Likewise your screenshot shows an option called Check Cable wheras mine doesn’t however that function is part of the process when clicking on the Enable HDR option as shown in the second thumbnail.



For what it’s worth here is what Apple support has to say on the subject...



https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288



And like you say, a picture is worth a thousand words... and saved @sonoftumble a hundred dollars had he taken your bet without seeing your photo.



Edit: I also tested my settings mirroring the Format you are using (1080p SDR rather than 4K SDR) and the Enable HDR option still appears on my screen like the first thumbnail


Too bad you posted so quickly, I could have used an extra $100 . Although it doesn’t have the “Enable Dolby Vision” or “Enable HDR” setting on that TV it will allow me to change the Format from 1080p/SDR to 1080p/HDR if I want. I’ve tried it and it puts that fake contrasting HDR effect on the screen, not pleasant.

The “Check Cable” setting might be a beta 12 thing. I don’t remember.


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post #17122 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 10:15 AM
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Apologies in advance if this has been asked a gazillion times: I'm looking to move from my Gen 3 ATV to ATV4K. Right now, close to half of the 4K content I watch is from YouTube. I understand the compatibility issues, but is there anything on the horizon where either YouTube or Apple makes a change to get this working? This present predicament is preventing a purchase for me right now. Thanks!
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post #17123 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
I am 100% sure. But because you are skeptical I am attaching a picture which is worth a thousand words. The TV is an 8 year old Mitsubishi and that little black box in the lower right is a 2018 ATV4K 32G. Nothing in the chain, nothing up my sleeve, no hidden components. If you look at the Video and Audio settings you can see both Match settings are on.
If you think I’m wrong let’s make a $100 bet. You live a few minutes from me...bring cash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Interesting.

For comparison I am running tvOS 11.4.1 with the Apple TV 4K plugged directly into a compliant HDR UHD 2160p TV and as you will note in the first thumbnail below I have an option not included on your screen shot above called Enable HDR so it appears the ATV4K is smart enough to know your TV is not HDR capable.

Likewise your screenshot shows an option called Check Cable wheras mine doesn’t however that function is part of the process when clicking on the Enable HDR option as shown in the second thumbnail.

For what it’s worth here is what Apple support has to say on the subject...

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288

And like you say, a picture is worth a thousand words... and saved @sonoftumble a hundred dollars had he taken your bet without seeing your photo.

Edit: I also tested my settings mirroring the Format you are using (1080p SDR rather than 4K SDR) and the Enable HDR option still appears on my screen like the first thumbnail
Congrats @m_snow , you found a pseudo bug - and thank you - but I will be keeping my $100. I stand corrected.

Because 1080P TV's don't have EDID's, the AppleTV 4K will have no idea what's plugged into it. But it will try to be accommodating. For example, I was able to set the output to 1080P HDR 60Hz on my old Vizio ( see attached ), and I got a very washed out picture - but nevertheless - a picture.

Back to my original point . . . dynamic range matching is useless on that Mitz, just as it's useless on my old Vizio; unless you like washed out pictures. Kind of a t**s on a bull thing. I would turn range matching OFF, and only use frame rate matching. Just a suggestion.
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LG OLED65C7P 4-20-19 Calibration SDR/HDR/DV FW 05.80.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57928994
VIZIO M70-D3 Calibration SDR/HDR FW 3.4.8.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post55595700
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post #17124 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Tornado Red View Post
Apologies in advance if this has been asked a gazillion times: I'm looking to move from my Gen 3 ATV to ATV4K. Right now, close to half of the 4K content I watch is from YouTube. I understand the compatibility issues, but is there anything on the horizon where either YouTube or Apple makes a change to get this working? This present predicament is preventing a purchase for me right now. Thanks!
You won't have any problems playing 4K content with the YouTube app. You will have problems playing Google's proprietary VP9-2 HDR content - as in it won't work - but you won't be missing much. That content is pretty thin on titles, and after you burn through all the travel stuff, you'll be saying "is that all there is"?. The list of 4K/HDR/DV movies on iTunes is massive and getting bigger weekly.

List of ATV 4K iTunes HDR titles: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1505495519
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LG OLED65C7P 4-20-19 Calibration SDR/HDR/DV FW 05.80.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57928994
VIZIO M70-D3 Calibration SDR/HDR FW 3.4.8.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post55595700
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post #17125 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
Congrats @m_snow , you found a pseudo bug - and thank you - but I will be keeping my $100. I stand corrected.



Because 1080P TV's don't have EDID's, the AppleTV 4K will have no idea what's plugged into it. But it will try to be accommodating. For example, I was able to set the output to 1080P HDR 60Hz on my old Vizio ( see attached ), and I got a very washed out picture - but nevertheless - a picture.



Back to my original point . . . dynamic range matching is useless on that Mitz, just as it's useless on my old Vizio; unless you like washed out pictures. Kind of a t**s on a bull thing. I would turn range matching OFF, and only use frame rate matching. Just a suggestion.


No worries. Because you’re a fellow T.O. resident I’ll let you slide on this one.


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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
You won't have any problems playing 4K content with the YouTube app. You will have problems playing Google's proprietary VP9-2 HDR content - as in it won't work - but you won't be missing much. That content is pretty thin on titles, and after you burn through all the travel stuff, you'll be saying "is that all there is"?. The list of 4K/HDR/DV movies on iTunes is massive and getting bigger weekly.



List of ATV 4K iTunes HDR titles: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1505495519


He may not have problems playing 4K content on the ATV YouTube app but it won’t be 4K, it will be 1080p.


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post #17127 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 10:54 AM
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Because 1080P TV's don't have EDID's
Yes they do.

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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
...Because 1080P TV's don't have EDID's, the AppleTV 4K will have no idea what's plugged into it. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Yes they do.
Yes they do. EDID is part of the HDMI spec. from HDMI's beginnings.

The problem may be that the ATV does not understand the EDID from the Mistu., or, you may indeed have a cable issue. There are no 1080p TVs (currently) that do HDR, so, you might as well turn match dynamic range off. Turning it on may actually be causing your issues. However, this can all change if you are using the latest tvOS or running the beta for tvOS 12? If using the beta, yeah, it will have bugs, this may be a bug, read the FAQ for Apple's beta program...you can't expect a beta to work perfectly like a released product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_snow View Post
He may not have problems playing 4K content on the ATV YouTube app but it won’t be 4K, it will be 1080p.


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Or, will it play 1440p? ...that's what I heard, but, I don't yet have a 4K setup.
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post #17129 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 11:17 AM
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Or, will it play 1440p? ...that's what I heard, but, I don't yet have a 4K setup.
1080p in YouTube max.
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post #17130 of 25610 Old 08-04-2018, 11:34 AM
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Yes they do. EDID is part of the HDMI spec. from HDMI's beginnings.



The problem may be that the ATV does not understand the EDID from the Mistu., or, you may indeed have a cable issue. There are no 1080p TVs (currently) that do HDR, so, you might as well turn match dynamic range off. Turning it on may actually be causing your issues. However, this can all change if you are using the latest tvOS or running the beta for tvOS 12? If using the beta, yeah, it will have bugs, this may be a bug, read the FAQ for Apple's beta program...you can't expect a beta to work perfectly like a released product.





Or, will it play 1440p? ...that's what I heard, but, I don't yet have a 4K setup.


You may be mixing up two different posts from different people but I’m the one with the Mits and I don’t have any issues (cable or anything else). Someone else posted something about match frame settings turning themselves off on his 1080 display which started this convo.


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