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post #17131 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Tornado Red View Post
Apologies in advance if this has been asked a gazillion times: I'm looking to move from my Gen 3 ATV to ATV4K. Right now, close to half of the 4K content I watch is from YouTube. I understand the compatibility issues, but is there anything on the horizon where either YouTube or Apple makes a change to get this working? This present predicament is preventing a purchase for me right now. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
1080p in YouTube max.
Ah, ok. Well, I think via computer browser 1440 is the max on Macs, wait, I just checked, something's changed, 1080p is the max now. Odd.

I guess they've converted anything higher than 1080p H.264 to VP9??

> And to comment on whether 4K YT playback will ever be possible on ATV 4K? Probably not for the foreseeable future. Google is the one that went all "proprietary" this time, while practically everyone else has adopted the HEVC standard, they are sticking with VP9.

Keep in mind, YT playback is limited by Google's YT app. Apple doesn't ever need to adopt VP9, and probably won't. Google could do a conversion in-app to HEVC, but, probably won't.
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post #17132 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by benji888578 View Post
Ah, ok. Well, I think via computer browser 1440 is the max on Macs, wait, I just checked, something's changed, 1080p is the max now. Odd.

I guess they've converted anything higher than 1080p H.264 to VP9??

> And to comment on whether 4K YT playback will ever be possible on ATV 4K? Probably not for the foreseeable future. Google is the one that went all "proprietary" this time, while practically everyone else has adopted the HEVC standard, they are sticking with VP9.

Keep in mind, YT playback is limited by Google's YT app. Apple doesn't ever need to adopt VP9, and probably won't. Google could do a conversion in-app to HEVC, but, probably won't.
If you use Chrome on macOS you can play 4K.

While VP9 was created by Google it is royalty free and can be used by anyone.
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post #17133 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 12:35 PM
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It's royalty free in that you don't have to pay google money, but it still has a license and you have to abide by google's rules (which is probably part of what Apple doesn't like). For example, if you use VP9, you agree to not litigate against google regarding ANY patent disputes you might have with them. For many companies this is probably a small sacrifice. You can surmise why Apple doesn't want to enter into that agreement.
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post #17134 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
Congrats @m_snow , you found a pseudo bug
...

Because 1080P TV's don't have EDID's

That's not a bug psuedo or otherwise. It's probably an accomodation but in any case it's deliberate.


Of course 1080p TVs use EDID. EDID is supported by 1080 and every other usable resolution (at least 480 to 4320 on the CEA/television side). Displays are built to be CEA/VESA compatible not the other way around.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17135 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
If you use Chrome on macOS you can play 4K.

While VP9 was created by Google it is royalty free and can be used by anyone.
I found out that if you got to: http://www.youtube.com/tv on a computer, you get the same TV interface as you would on a streaming box. Would be interesting to see if the video limit still applies to that as it does to the desktop interface on the same computer / browser.
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post #17136 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post
I found out that if you got to: http://www.youtube.com/tv on a computer, you get the same TV interface as you would on a streaming box. Would be interesting to see if the video limit still applies to that as it does to the desktop interface on the same computer / browser.
I tested a video in the TV UI URL and it caps out at 1440p whereas going to the regular site on my Mac, I can get 4K in Chrome.
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post #17137 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
I tested a video in the TV UI URL and it caps out at 1440p whereas going to the regular site on my Mac, I can get 4K in Chrome.
I was just going to post, that after enabling VP9 in about:config for firefox, I tested one of 4K underwater videos and the quality badge said 4K, Safari was badged at HD. I haven't tried chrome. Makes me wonder if you can get a working TV interface on the computer, if you can AirPlay as a separate display to Apple TV 4k (if you have a Mac, of course) and at least get 4K YouTube on AT4K I know it won't fix the HDR issue, unless AirPlay can recognize HDR signals.


It's kind of hit or miss on these forums as people here may only have an Apple TV as their Apple product, or maybe an iPad, or iPhone. But this kind of workaround would work best from a 4k / 5k compatible mac, such as an iMac 4k / 5k, or a recent Macbook Pro.

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post #17138 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post
But this kind of workaround would work best from a 4k / 5k compatible mac, such as an iMac 4k / 5k, or a recent Macbook Pro.
If you care enough about 4K YouTube just get an inexpensive 4K YouTube* streamer.



*Both in the sense of able to stream 4K YouTube and made by YouTube (Google). Or a Roku.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17139 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
If you care enough about 4K YouTube just get an inexpensive 4K YouTube* streamer.



*Both in the sense of able to stream 4K YouTube and made by YouTube (Google). Or a Roku.
I have devices that support YouTube 4k / HDR directly. I was just offering a solution to people who have the mindset "It HAS to be Apple". I agree with you, where it's much easier to use a solution with native support.

It seems like people still complain about no 4k HDR for Apple TV directly. I've asked about it myself, but because I have other devices that can handle it, not a big deal for me, though having one go to device for everything would be nice.
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post #17140 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
If you care enough about 4K YouTube just get an inexpensive 4K YouTube* streamer.



*Both in the sense of able to stream 4K YouTube and made by YouTube (Google). Or a Roku.
The irony is that I would typically use my Android TVs to play 4K YouTube but as of recently I've had an issue where my 3 different model TVs all have awful connection speeds to YouTube in specific and the buffer runs out constantly.

(This is on a 1gbps cable connection DOCSIS 3.1 modem, high end router, gigabit network/switches everywhere, etc.)
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post #17141 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post
... having one go to device for everything would be nice.
That's unlikely to happen as long as Amazon, Apple and Google have no incentive to (fully) support the competition. Assuming AV1 has the same license terms as VP9 the YouTube issues will persist.


By the way, Netflix shows us that it's a simple matter of "native" encoding for every major platform.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17142 of 24924 Old 08-04-2018, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
That's unlikely to happen as long as Amazon, Apple and Google have no incentive to (fully) support the competition. Assuming AV1 has the same license terms as VP9 the YouTube issues will persist.


By the way, Netflix shows us that it's a simple matter of "native" encoding for every major platform.
For most people, the Roku is a good device for everything other then iTunes content, and reliable local streaming for lossless audio / high bitrate files. such as local copies of discs on a media server in MKV format.

Apple TV is much better then it was. For Physical media and local streaming a blu-ray player is good. The Apple TV has apps such as Infuse, and MrMC, and VLC, with Infuse being the best solution for local media on Apple TV as far as I can tell, and have seen.

For me when it comes to internet streaming, the Roku, or Apple TV are both good choices when it comes to the standard services. For iTunes content of course, the Apple TV is the option.
For local streaming I would say Apple TV + Infuse, or Blu-ray player+DLNA, or the other choice people seem to be picking is the Shield TV.
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post #17143 of 24924 Old 08-05-2018, 02:32 PM
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What’s all this talk about the ATV 4K not playing 4K YouTube videos? Are you talking about it not playing 4K on a 1080p tv or not playing 4K on a 4K tv? Or is it both?


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post #17144 of 24924 Old 08-05-2018, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TechSilver13 View Post
What’s all this talk about the ATV 4K not playing 4K YouTube videos? Are you talking about it not playing 4K on a 1080p tv or not playing 4K on a 4K tv? Or is it both?


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Both. YouTube is only 1080P and non-HDR on ATV regardless of your TV's capabilities.


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post #17145 of 24924 Old 08-05-2018, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ROMIL View Post
Both. YouTube is only 1080P and non-HDR on ATV regardless of your TV's capabilities.


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Correct, Apple TV, doesn't support Google's VP9 codec which essentially all 4k / HDR videos on YouTube are encoded in. So 10808p is the max resolution they will play at on this device. Has anyone been able to play 1440p? those don't usually require VP9. It just depends.
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post #17146 of 24924 Old 08-05-2018, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post
Correct, Apple TV, doesn't support Google's VP9 codec which essentially all 4k / HDR videos on YouTube are encoded in. So 10808p is the max resolution they will play at on this device. Has anyone been able to play 1440p? those don't usually require VP9. It just depends.


Note that I believe youTube does in fact play HDR on other Apple iOS devices and although not 4K it does display higher than 1080p (1440p/30 I believe) on the iPhone 10 and latest iPad Pro.


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post #17147 of 24924 Old 08-05-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
That's unlikely to happen as long as Amazon, Apple and Google have no incentive to (fully) support the competition. Assuming AV1 has the same license terms as VP9 the YouTube issues will persist.
AV1 is supported by pretty much all the major players. Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Netflix, Hulu, Facebook, etc. are all members of the Alliance for Open Media, which is developing AV1. So I would expect all of them to use the codec in their services/products.

I bet we won't see Apple debut the next model Apple TV until they can include an AV1-decoding chip in it. Retail devices with those chips aren't expected to hit the market until the latter half of 2019, which would be two years after the intro of the current ATV4K. Seems about right.
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post #17148 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
AV1 is supported by pretty much all the major players.
My bad. I see that Apple has recently been listed on the AOM web site. I would note that Apple products, in general, don't lead in the codec space and membership in organizations doesn't predict products.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17149 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 11:29 AM
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Just a heads up, there was another Netflix update for Apple TV today, but no new interface yet. Hope it comes soon, all my other Netflix compatible devices used on a regular basis have the new UI with sidebar.
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post #17150 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post
Just a heads up, there was another Netflix update for Apple TV today, but no new interface yet. Hope it comes soon, all my other Netflix compatible devices used on a regular basis have the new UI with sidebar.

Now I use my TV Netflix app bcoz of the new UI
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post #17151 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rondongon View Post
Now I use my TV Netflix app bcoz of the new UI
Fir the standard third party Services I use a Roku, for iTunes and local streaming (inFuse) I use the Apple TV.
For physical media, and local streaming I use the Sony disc players.

I will use Plex on Roku and Apple TV as well, but typically will use Apple TV for blu-ray stuff as it's a less pain when it comes to transcoding.
I have all my services installed on both the Roku players and Apple TVs, because I do switch between the two when one has issues, and the other doesn't.
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post #17152 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
My bad. I see that Apple has recently been listed on the AOM web site. I would note that Apple products, in general, don't lead in the codec space and membership in organizations doesn't predict products.
Yes, although, given their membership, I can't imagine why Apple wouldn't eventually encode their content (especially 4K) in AV1, given that it should be a fair amount more efficient than HEVC, meaning lower bandwidth costs (and less worry about data caps by viewers). The trade-off would appear to be that encoding is more complex and costly for AV1 than HEVC. So at this point, analysts are predicting that, at least in the next few years, AV1 will probably only make sense for large services that serve up a LOT of streams (Netflix, Hulu, etc.). Obviously, we'll be well into the 2020s before AV1 becomes the predominant streaming video codec in use across all devices. But, given its technical superiority, the fact that it's royalty-free, and its broad industry support, I do think that's where we're heading eventually.

And, yes, Apple typically isn't as aggressive in adopting new technologies as others, so an Apple TV with support for AV1 next year is probably unlikely. Fall 2020 would be a more plausible scenario. Still though, I can't really see Apple updating the ATV before they're ready to put an AV1-decoding chip in it. Because the current ATV4K is so powerful that -- once it gains support for Dolby Atmos this fall -- there's really nothing more on the near-term tech horizon that it will lack.
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post #17153 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 11:55 AM
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Looks like the new version of Infuse with the new scaling is rolling out.
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post #17154 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Looks like the new version of Infuse with the new scaling is rolling out.
I installed it today on my iPad, and 2 Apple TVs 4, and 4K.
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post #17155 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Looks like the new version of Infuse with the new scaling is rolling out.
I tried a 480p TV series I have on Infuse before and after the upgrade and didn't notice any difference...

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post #17156 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 03:47 PM
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I tried a 480p TV series I have on Infuse before and after the upgrade and didn't notice any difference...
I was thinking about that myself, wouldn't a function like upscaling be handled either by hardware, or the system firmware rather then a user created app? Doesn't really make much sense to me either what Firecore would accomplish here over Apple's built in function, and the functionality of hte connected display.
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post #17157 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 03:58 PM
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I was thinking about that myself, wouldn't a function like upscaling be handled either by hardware, or the system firmware rather then a user created app? Doesn't really make much sense to me either what Firecore would accomplish here over Apple's built in function, and the functionality of hte connected display.
If you have the Apple TV 4K set to 4K resolution, then you will not be using the connected display's upscaler because the scaling is being done by the Apple TV 4K. Infuse uses its own video player, not the one provided by Apple, so there are differences with video processing/rendering. Infuse's new upscaler definitely is an improvement for me compared to the old one. I mean it's nothing magical, but images were sharper when I did side by side comparisons.
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post #17158 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post
If you have the Apple TV 4K set to 4K resolution, then you will not be using the connected display's upscaler because the scaling is being done by the Apple TV 4K. Infuse uses its own video player, not the one provided by Apple, so there are differences with video processing/rendering. Infuse's new upscaler definitely is an improvement for me compared to the old one. I mean it's nothing magical, but images were sharper when I did side by side comparisons.
I have my ATV4K set to 4k resolution and intend on keeping it so I guess the new scaler on Infuse will never be of any benefit to me?

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post #17159 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post
I was thinking about that myself, wouldn't a function like upscaling be handled either by hardware, or the system firmware rather then a user created app? Doesn't really make much sense to me either what Firecore would accomplish here over Apple's built in function, and the functionality of hte connected display.
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I have my ATV4K set to 4k resolution and intend on keeping it so I guess the new scaler on Infuse will never be of any benefit to me?
So if you have the ATV4K set to 4K, any content you watch on Infuse that is less that 4K (so 1080p, 720p, 480p, etc.) will need to be upscaled by Infuse. The new Infuse upscaler has improved this upscaling process. So unless you only watch 4k content in Infuse, you WILL benefit from the new upscaler. Whether or not you notice a difference is another question.
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post #17160 of 24924 Old 08-06-2018, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post
So if you have the ATV4K set to 4K, any content you watch on Infuse that is less that 4K (so 1080p, 720p, 480p, etc.) will need to be upscaled by Infuse. The new Infuse upscaler has improved this upscaling process. So unless you only watch 4k content in Infuse, you WILL benefit from the new upscaler. Whether or not you notice a difference is another question.
Most of my Infuse activity is on an Apple TV 4, connected to a 1080p TV. I do have an Apple TV 4k, and a compatible TV, but because the sound bar only has HDMI 1.4, I run everything through the TV, and out optical. The Apple TV has to be set to Dolby digital 5.1 in this setup to even do 5.1 sound. The Roku can pass directly through the TV standard DTS, and DD+ which the TV converts to standard DD and sends out the optical. The Apple TV 4 on the 1080p setup can be switched into the HDMI input of the same model sound bar, so I get the standard codecs, and PCM 5.1. So, since most of the content I watch locally is HD, or SD, right now it's more practical to use that setup.

When it comes to 4k, I have a Sony UBP-X800 with dual HDMI outs so that gets the HDMI input for the 4K setup. So, I can still get lossless audio with 4k, but only on physical media, and having the player decode internally and send as PCM, or I can have standard codecs too.

My point in explaining all this seems to come back to while I enjoy HDR content, it would have been more practical for me to stick with HD only for a while longer.
After saying all this, would the inFuse upscaler make much difference in an HD setup? say SD to HD? Or, is it more for 4k?

Last edited by MacinMan; 08-06-2018 at 04:24 PM.
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