Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post - Page 578 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17311 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwinston View Post
I have an ATV4K hooked up to an LG B7 through a Denon S930H. I recently bought Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon from iTunes in 4K Dolby Vision. Is there a known issue with this transfer? It looks like crap with my setup. Extremely grainy, and faces look like there are worms crawling under the skin. Even the subtitles are not very sharp. I have no problems with other iTunes 4K DV movies. I watched Spider-Man: Homecoming and John Wick 2 this weekend with the same setup, and they looked fantastic. SM looked nearly as good as the UHD disc version. The HDX version of CTHD on the ATV Vudu app looked much better than the 4K DV iTunes version, as did the UHD non-HDR version on the LG’s Amazon app. So what’s up with this?


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Its just a grainy transfer. The disk is the same. I think it looks ok but I appreciate people might not like it.


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post #17312 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Soundizer17 View Post
Should weset to Best Quality if the TV shows Dolby Audio when doing so?
Yes.
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post #17313 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
Its just a grainy transfer. The disk is the same. I think it looks ok but I appreciate people might not like it.


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Interesting, maybe I’m just more sensitive to it, since it’s practically unwatchable for me. I’ve got the 1080p Blu-ray of CTHD but not the UHD disc. Haven’t tried it since I got the LG TV and my Oppo 203, but now I want to compare it to the iTunes version as well.


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post #17314 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwinston View Post
Interesting, maybe I’m just more sensitive to it, since it’s practically unwatchable for me. I’ve got the 1080p Blu-ray of CTHD but not the UHD disc. Haven’t tried it since I got the LG TV and my Oppo 203, but now I want to compare it to the iTunes version as well.


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Will be interesting to hear how that compares. I remember a few scenes being incredibly grainy especially early on in the movie.


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post #17315 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
Will be interesting to hear how that compares. I remember a few scenes being incredibly grainy especially early on in the movie.


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I just watched part of the iTUnes 4K version, and it is a bit grainy, but looks nice and sounds good.

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post #17316 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Not sure about that as this would mean TrueHD which you won't find in low bandwidth streamed content. Would be much easier for Apple to just pass through the Atmos encoded E-AC-3 stream. Have to dig deeper though.
That does not necessarily mean TrueHD. It is the same principle of the Apple TV taking the lossy E-AC-3 and AC-3 streams and putting it a lossless PCM container, just in this case it uses MAT to have the Atmos Metadata layered on the PCM stream.
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post #17317 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Probably. Any specific reason why you don't connect the ATV to the AVR?
My receiver doesn't pass through Dolby Vision, so I connected the ATV to the TV instead.

I was so happy without HDR...
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post #17318 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
I just watched part of the iTUnes 4K version, and it is a bit grainy, but looks nice and sounds good.

Hmmm, thanks for checking. Could be something with my system. I have pretty limited internet bandwidth, which usually isn’t a problem, but could be in this particular case.
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post #17319 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 08:07 PM
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I've been having bad lip sync issues when streaming on my ATV 4K. Lip sync was fine when I set my Onkyo on Dolby Surround, but if I used Direct or Auto-Select (where it matches listening mode to the source), lip sync is off. Reading through this thread, I found the issue. Someone mentioned earlier that turning off Match Frame Rate solved it for them.

Match Frame Rate was the culprit for me. Turning it off, lip sync matches fine. However, I also installed the TVOS 12 beta tonight too. And with Match Frame Rate turned on, streaming Dolby Atmos matched fine when setting my AVR to Auto-Select, and it used "Dolby Atmos 5.0" mode. Direct mode still had lip sync issues. So for now, I'll leave Match Frame Rate on, and let it auto select. I just won't use Direct.

[Edited for clarity]
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post #17320 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Not sure about that as this would mean TrueHD .... Would be much easier for Apple to just pass through the Atmos encoded E-AC-3 stream. Have to dig deeper though.
Actually no it doesn't mean that. Some Sony AVR report the data type and some people with those receivers have reported that the data stream is PCM. This means MAT* 2.0 which is intended for low-cost object layering over PCM.



From a Dolby white paper dated Oct-2016.

Quote:
With the introduction of Dolby Atmos, we have expanded the Dolby MAT technology to support encoding and decoding of Dolby Atmos metadata incorporated in lossless pulse-code modulation (PCM) audio.
A key benefit of Dolby MAT 2.0 is that Dolby Atmos object-based audio can be live encoded and transmitted from a source device with limited latency and processing complexity. Among the likely sources are broadcast set-top boxes and game consoles.
*metadata-enhanced audio transmission.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17321 of 26084 Old 08-13-2018, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post
My receiver doesn't pass through Dolby Vision, so I connected the ATV to the TV instead.
Guess it's time for a new AVR
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post #17322 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
That does not necessarily mean TrueHD. It is the same principle of the Apple TV taking the lossy E-AC-3 and AC-3 streams and putting it a lossless PCM container, just in this case it uses MAT to have the Atmos Metadata layered on the PCM stream.
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Actually no it doesn't mean that. Some Sony AVR report the data type and some people with those receivers have reported that the data stream is PCM. This means MAT* 2.0 which is intended for low-cost object layering over PCM.



From a Dolby white paper dated Oct-2016.

*metadata-enhanced audio transmission.
Guess that's what Apple does, decode Atmos and re-encode it in realtime as MAT 2.x because system sounds are indeed overlaid on a playing Atmos track. My AVR doesn't display more detailed information. Sent a support request to the manufacturer for clarification.
Quite a complex (and therefore error-prone) solution just for getting system sounds overlaid. Simple E-AC-3 passthrough would have been good enough (for me).

And then there this:

https://developer.dolby.com/blog/dol...-and-carriage/

"WHY CAN'T I JUST SEND PCM?

There's a lot more to Dolby audio than just compression! You get the best possible audio quality when the final device in the chain does the audio decoding. Dolby audio bitstreams have metadata parameters that define how surround sound is downmixed to stereo, what type of dynamic range compression should be applied and other useful information. To get the best sound quality out of a television or home theater system, it's best if they receive a Dolby bitstream over HDMI. Additionally, there is NO way of sending Dolby Atmos over PCM over HDMI, so you have to send Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD to get the Dolby Atmos experience."

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Last edited by markus767; 08-14-2018 at 02:25 AM.
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post #17323 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 07:00 AM
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I had an interesting experience this morning when I went up to Walmart to get groceries and pick up a physical copy of the new Avengers movie. They only got TWO copies of the 4k version, and they had both sold before I got there. So they had the DVD, or blu-ray. I went ahead and got the orginial Avengers movie in HDR instead, as I didn't have a copy, and the only movie I have was age of ultron, so it made more since to get the first movie and get the new one later when i can get the HDR version.


I just thought it was strange they only got 2 HDR copies when they usually get more, if it as a 4K / HDR disc release.


That's what I usually do, buy the disc, then redeem the digital copy for my streaming boxes, and then rip the Blu-ray to Plex for local streaming. At least, now when I do get the new movie, I'll have all three movies in that set now.
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post #17324 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 07:04 AM
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That's why I just preorder. It'll be in my mailbox when I get home from work today.

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post #17325 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
That's why I just preorder. It'll be in my mailbox when I get home from work today.
I've bought from amazon before. It's nice being able to have the in person experience though. I'm unable to drive due to low vision, So, being able to get out of the house and go get it is extra nice. There is always Best buy, or some place else if I want the movie later.


I actually like the original movie I got today. I like it better then Age of Ultron even. It just has that authentic Marvel comics feel to it, even though it's live action.
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post #17326 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 08:03 AM
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in person experience not = Walmart. lol
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post #17327 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 10:57 AM
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in person experience not = Walmart. lol
VUDU is my secondary service to iTunes when it comes to where the majority of my content is stored, and managed. I've never had issues getting the movies I want from Walmart. This was the first time they ran short on stock. Then I went over to Sam's and got a day pass, and they didn't get the movie at all.


We have best buy here, cut I'd have to pay for a ride there, unless someone could drive me. That's usually why i go to Walmart because I can walk there. Anyway, I rented the movie from VUDU in HDX to see if I even want to buy a physical copy after I see it. For Movies, at least I usually choose VUDU over iTunes because of their disc to digital service. Been easy, and cheaper to convert movies I have on disc to digital streaming. The really nice bonus has been, many of my movies I've converted have Movies Anywhere rights, so i have them on all major services now.


Then again, there have been movies I've wanted to upgrade to on Blu-ray from DVD and Best Buy hasn't had them either. There used to be a place in the mall here called FYE, I went to several years ago, but I think it closed, can't be sure.
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post #17328 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post
My receiver doesn't pass through Dolby Vision, so I connected the ATV to the TV instead.
Just an assumption, but if your receiver can pass 4K HDR10, and playback Atmos then you probably paid a pretty penny for it. I had a similar situation with my Pioneer Elite. It could pass 18Gb HDR10, but is clueless about Dolby Vision and HLG. Since I have an AppleTV 4K, and a DirecTV 4K box which pushes HLG 24/7, I decided to get this: https://www.avproedge.com/ac-mx42-au...to-matrix.html

Don't let the list price scare you off as that is not what you would pay. Send me a PM if you want to know more about function and price. This thing is the real deal and it saved my otherwise awesome AVR.
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post #17329 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwinston View Post
Interesting, maybe I’m just more sensitive to it, since it’s practically unwatchable for me. I’ve got the 1080p Blu-ray of CTHD but not the UHD disc. Haven’t tried it since I got the LG TV and my Oppo 203, but now I want to compare it to the iTunes version as well.
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
Will be interesting to hear how that compares. I remember a few scenes being incredibly grainy especially early on in the movie.
I, too thought there was quite a bit of grain on the UHD disk; I don't believe I have the iTunes version to compare, but when it was free for Prime on AV (UHD, but no HDR), I seem to recall about the same scenes being as grainy (so it's in the transfer from film).

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post #17330 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
there is NO way of sending Dolby Atmos over PCM over HDMI, so you have to send Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD to get the Dolby Atmos experience."
Dolby documents can contain mistakes and I would imagine that when they're "blog" posts they are unlikely to be corrected. The various technical specifications are subject to (normally backwards compatible) revision and correction/errata.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17331 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 01:54 PM
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Question about audio quality

ARC has been flaky (no real surprise) with my Denon 4400 and LG B7 TV, so I am using an optical cable for my LG apps and cable TV. I know that optical will not carry Dolby Digital Plus, which many Netflix movies and shows have. Is the PCM audio from my Apple TV 4K (connected to the Denon via HDMI) comparable in quality to Dolby Digital Plus?

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post #17332 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 03:12 PM
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Just thought I would follow up and say, after renting the Avengers Infinity War movie on VUDU, I don't feel as bad not getting the physical copy I wanted, and happy with the movie I did get. I didn't think the movie sucked, but it's something I can wait to pay for. The original Avengers Movie I got on disc, was much more captivating and kept my attention and focus much better. Part of the problem is, I don't like what they've done with Spider-Man, and Peter Parker's character in the later movies. With the original movie, even Nick Fury and the rest of the characters were of the tone and time frame I liked in Marvel comics.


Plus, even though I've had compatible hardware for a couple years now, I'm still not fully sold on the 4K / HDR stuff. Yes, I like HDR, no, I can't really tell any difference with 4k over 1080p unless looking at video on the 5K iMac which i sit closer to then the TV. Most of my content is HD, or SD other then the stuff i've purchased recently. I think my fair assessment at this point would be, I should have kept my 1080p Plasma set, and invested in ATMOS maybe.
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post #17333 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by geodon005 View Post
Is the PCM audio from my Apple TV 4K (connected to the Denon via HDMI) comparable in quality to Dolby Digital Plus?
That's the intent but please review the first post in this thread particularly the audio via LPCM bullet point and follow the links..

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #17334 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post
Just thought I would follow up and say, after renting the Avengers Infinity War movie on VUDU, I don't feel as bad not getting the physical copy I wanted, and happy with the movie I did get. I didn't think the movie sucked, but it's something I can wait to pay for. The original Avengers Movie I got on disc, was much more captivating and kept my attention and focus much better. Part of the problem is, I don't like what they've done with Spider-Man, and Peter Parker's character in the later movies. With the original movie, even Nick Fury and the rest of the characters were of the tone and time frame I liked in Marvel comics.


Plus, even though I've had compatible hardware for a couple years now, I'm still not fully sold on the 4K / HDR stuff. Yes, I like HDR, no, I can't really tell any difference with 4k over 1080p unless looking at video on the 5K iMac which i sit closer to then the TV. Most of my content is HD, or SD other then the stuff i've purchased recently. I think my fair assessment at this point would be, I should have kept my 1080p Plasma set, and invested in ATMOS maybe.
The movie is from a 2K DI and Disney keeps flubbing the home theater release audio mixes, so the gap between physical and digital is narrowed.

That said, I paid $3 extra over the Vudu copy and got the 4K Blu-ray and 4K Vudu version, so seemed worth it to me.

Not sure which display you are using, the size of the display, your seating distance from the display, nor its HDR capabilities but all those factors can contribute into you not seeing much of an improvement over 1080p SDR.
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post #17335 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
Just an assumption, but if your receiver can pass 4K HDR10, and playback Atmos then you probably paid a pretty penny for it. I had a similar situation with my Pioneer Elite. It could pass 18Gb HDR10, but is clueless about Dolby Vision and HLG. Since I have an AppleTV 4K, and a DirecTV 4K box which pushes HLG 24/7, I decided to get this: https://www.avproedge.com/ac-mx42-au...to-matrix.html

Don't let the list price scare you off as that is not what you would pay. Send me a PM if you want to know more about function and price. This thing is the real deal and it saved my otherwise awesome AVR.
I'm in that identical situation with a Pioneer SC-61, preventing me from getting an ATV4K right now. Receiver works great and I'm not in the financial position to replace it. Considering going through my Oppo 203 input, but thinking DV won't pass, and I'm not sure about lossless audio. I don't have Atmos obviously, with that receiver, but would still like to have the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 core if I can. Really unfortunate that Apple wouldn't/couldn't give us 2 HDMI outs.
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post #17336 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 05:28 PM
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Has anyone had audio errors that sound like crackling? I was watching "Push" on the Showtime app and during a lot of the fight scenes there was definitely crackling present on loud sounds. I assume it's an encoding error or something because when I rewound it was the same. I haven't heard it since but you'd think if it was the stream someone would have noticed. If I hear it elsewhere I'll report because this is the first time I've had a problem like this (running HDMI to my Integra DTM-7).
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post #17337 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
The movie is from a 2K DI and Disney keeps flubbing the home theater release audio mixes, so the gap between physical and digital is narrowed.

That said, I paid $3 extra over the Vudu copy and got the 4K Blu-ray and 4K Vudu version, so seemed worth it to me.

Not sure which display you are using, the size of the display, your seating distance from the display, nor its HDR capabilities but all those factors can contribute into you not seeing much of an improvement over 1080p SDR.
@mutelight : Well, the point I have initially tried to bring to the conversation when it comes to my evaluation of 4K, and HDR over the last couple years has come from someone who has lower vision then the average person, so 4K, as a resolution doesn't make the same difference as HD vs SD on a TV of the same size at a distance of 4 to 6 feet away and a screen size of 43". HDR makes a difference though. My strong point has always been audio, and that's why i'm saying with my current living space, ATMOS may have been a better investment for me then 4K, and HDR.
I live in a 1 bedroom apartment, and while I could probably do a 55" TV as my maximum size in the living room without overkill, and over crowding. I feel realistically to really get a good experience over HD would not really happen until I live in a place where I would have the freedom to install a screen equal or close to the size of a commercial cinema. With audio, that's much easier to notice differences. With all this said, I have noticed a difference between HDR, and SDR, but it depends on the content as to how good it is.


Let's take the topic of this thread for example, I have two Apple TVs the 4k model, and a 4th generation. Each is setup with a respective TV The 4th generation is on a 48" HD TV in the bedroom, and the 4K is on the 4k TV in the living room. I've been perfectly happy with the HD setup, and the reason, i got the 4K apple TV was more to have a second streamer when the ROKU goes wonky. As it is, I still fine myself 95% of the time watching HD, or SD content, as most of the stuff i like to watch on a regular basis, isn't 4K, or HDR.


I'm just keeping my expectations realistic here, based on what I've observed, and my experience in the professional broadcast industry. 4K / HDR still feels like a Niche standard, and the industry, and the average consumer is still on HD., or even SD. I just wanted to find out what the tech was like when I had extra money to upgrade, and while I like it I think I could have waited and still been happy with what I had with as I said, maybe just an audio upgrade.


That's also why I went with a sound bar solution for 5.1, which is a true 5.1 setup, vs an AVR, because from a space and esthetic prospective, an AVR isn't practical for my current setup. Not until wireless audio has more options and is more stable.
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post #17338 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 06:12 PM
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@mutelight : Well, the point I have initially tried to bring to the conversation when it comes to my evaluation of 4K, and HDR over the last couple years has come from someone who has lower vision then the average person, so 4K, as a resolution doesn't make the same difference as HD vs SD on a TV of the same size at a distance of 4 to 6 feet away and a screen size of 43". HDR makes a difference though. My strong point has always been audio, and that's why i'm saying with my current living space, ATMOS may have been a better investment for me then 4K, and HDR.
I live in a 1 bedroom apartment, and while I could probably do a 55" TV as my maximum size in the living room without overkill, and over crowding. I feel realistically to really get a good experience over HD would not really happen until I live in a place where I would have the freedom to install a screen equal or close to the size of a commercial cinema. With audio, that's much easier to notice differences. With all this said, I have noticed a difference between HDR, and SDR, but it depends on the content as to how good it is.


Let's take the topic of this thread for example, I have two Apple TVs the 4k model, and a 4th generation. Each is setup with a respective TV The 4th generation is on a 48" HD TV in the bedroom, and the 4K is on the 4k TV in the living room. I've been perfectly happy with the HD setup, and the reason, i got the 4K apple TV was more to have a second streamer when the ROKU goes wonky. As it is, I still fine myself 95% of the time watching HD, or SD content, as most of the stuff i like to watch on a regular basis, isn't 4K, or HDR.


I'm just keeping my expectations realistic here, based on what I've observed, and my experience in the professional broadcast industry. 4K / HDR still feels like a Niche standard, and the industry, and the average consumer is still on HD., or even SD. I just wanted to find out what the tech was like when I had extra money to upgrade, and while I like it I think I could have waited and still been happy with what I had with as I said, maybe just an audio upgrade.


That's also why I went with a sound bar solution for 5.1, which is a true 5.1 setup, vs an AVR, because from a space and esthetic prospective, an AVR isn't practical for my current setup. Not until wireless audio has more options and is more stable.
My point I was bringing to the conversation is that seating distance, panel quality, and HDR performance of the particular display you are viewing has a large influence of how much impact 4K and HDR has for the viewer.

For a 43" 4K display, you'd want to be 3.6-5.4 feet away and if your vision is lower than 20/20, you'd want to be closer to 3.6' away.

As far as HDR, that is highly dependent on the tech in the display. To really take advantage of HDR you want a FALD backlit LCD or an emissive OLED to take full advantage of the extra dynamic range. There are some nice edge-lit displays that get nice and bright for HDR but it is challenging to localize specular highlights with that backlighting method.

In short, 4K and HDR can have a consistently notable impact (unless the screw up the transfer and/or HDR grading), the problem is that display tech to execute it properly to take advantage, let alone closer to full advantage, can be highly cost prohibitive.
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My point I was bringing to the conversation is that seating distance, panel quality, and HDR performance of the particular display you are viewing has a large influence of how much impact 4K and HDR has for the viewer.

For a 43" 4K display, you'd want to be 3.6-5.4 feet away and if your vision is lower than 20/20, you'd want to be closer to 3.6' away.

As far as HDR, that is highly dependent on the tech in the display. To really take advantage of HDR you want a FALD backlit LCD or an emissive OLED to take full advantage of the extra dynamic range. There are some nice edge-lit displays that get nice and bright for HDR but it is challenging to localize specular highlights with that backlighting method.

In short, 4K and HDR can have a consistently notable impact (unless the screw up the transfer and/or HDR grading), the problem is that display tech to execute it properly to take advantage, let alone closer to full advantage, can be highly cost prohibitive.
I personally like Sony products, and my 4K TV is a 2016 Sony Bravia model XBR-43X800D with Sony's Triluminus technology and an edge lit VA panel. I'm really impressed with quality, and since I rarely watch TV in the dark anymore. The black levels when comparing OLED / plasma to LCD don't seem to make as big a difference in daylight. My TV, is only HDR10 and HLG compliant, no Dolby vision, here. At the time though, HDR10 was the more widely touted standard so I went with that one, especially since I intended to primarily use this as a physical media upgrade vs streaming. I can tell you I had a lower end Panasonic 42" Plasma TV this Sony replaced and the picture quality is equal to, or even a little better, since the Plasma was an older display model, and a lower end one.
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post #17340 of 26084 Old 08-14-2018, 06:38 PM
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I personally like Sony products, and my 4K TV is a 2016 Sony Bravia model XBR-43X800D with Sony's Triluminus technology and an edge lit VA panel. I'm really impressed with quality, and since I rarely watch TV in the dark anymore. The black levels when comparing OLED / plasma to LCD don't seem to make as big a difference in daylight. My TV, is only HDR10 and HLG compliant, no Dolby vision, here. At the time though, HDR10 was the more widely touted standard so I went with that one, especially since I intended to primarily use this as a physical media upgrade vs streaming. I can tell you I had a lower end Panasonic 42" Plasma TV this Sony replaced and the picture quality is equal to, or even a little better, since the Plasma was an older display model, and a lower end one.
Even though the 800D does not do Dolby Vision, the inherent problem is that it doesn't achieve even the minimum recommended brightness for HDR.

Now to be clear, I am not dogging on your display, I am sure it handles SDR content quite well, I am just asking that you don't evaluate the value add of 4K and HDR on a display that can't actually represent the format.

Again, my main point is that 4K and HDR can be a big jump, it is just really cost prohibitive, as far as cost of the display, to see that advantage.
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