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post #20821 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
As far as I'm aware the ATV4K is the only device which attempts to convert DV to HDR10.
I have another player which plays back HDR10 Netflix perfectly (Sony UHD player) including 23.976 and 24p support, but it has at least one other annoyance in that in the mode where it switches framerate it also switches frame rate for the trailers which autoplay, which makes it all but unusable on displays with slow sync (like my JVC PJ).

in any case, given that Apple are doing some really good deals on 4K titles to purchase it isn't that simple - I'd like to enjoy them and there is no other option that to use the ATV4k for playback of them.

Now the JVC projectors which are using this metadata are starting to ship more folk are noticing the problem with Apple's implementation. I really do hope Apple will just 'pull their finger out" and fix this once and for all. Frustrating that as yet it seems no-one has made it past front line support with this issue.
There are several titles in iTunes which are in fact originally HDR10, and not DV. ( Eg. "Apollo 13" ) Just curious if those titles playback as expected on certain problematic display devices. My LG OLED C7 handles all of these various HDR formats and frame rates without issues, so I have not personally experienced this.

LG OLED65C7P 4-20-19 Calibration SDR/HDR/DV FW 05.80.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57928994
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post #20822 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 12:32 PM
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That's a real interesting question. I was just about to say "of course they have static meta data" but that I realized it has been so long since I looked, I cannot say that for sure.
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post #20823 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That's a real interesting question. I was just about to say "of course they have static meta data" but that I realized it has been so long since I looked, I cannot say that for sure.
I would say yes of course but I've learned my lesson. So, of the titles I've checked, they still have consistent content luminance data over large sections of the motion picture. As we know variable data is a function of the specific title so a complete answer would require consistently rechecking all titles.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #20824 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
As far as I'm aware the ATV4K is the only device which attempts to convert DV to HDR10.
...
in any case, given that Apple are doing some really good deals on 4K titles to purchase it isn't that simple

Now the JVC projectors which are using this metadata are starting to ship more folk are noticing the problem with Apple's implementation
At the moment five of the eight features I checked have constant metadata. This is still the case from the last time I said this. However it's exactly constant for every feature. So from my perspective 62% of DoVi content converted by the ATV4K has constant data which should result in interruption-free playback on systems that don't handle those changes well. Naturally we have to wonder exactly how this state of affairs has come about. Perhaps 60% of DoVi features don't have dynamic metadata or it's altered during distribution or the conversion routine in the ATV4K is not just wrong but incomprehensibly wrong.

In any case there are choices and people have to make them with minimal complaining about not getting a pony.

By the way an OPPO 20X will convert DoVi to HDR10. As noted below not so much. I guess the ATV4 is a unicorn.
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post #20825 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
By the way an OPPO 20X will convert DoVi to HDR10.
I don't think so. It can convert HDR10 to Dolby Vision but not the other way around. It will play the HDR10 layer of Dolby Vision UHD discs, not convert.
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post #20826 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
There are several titles in iTunes which are in fact originally HDR10, and not DV. ( Eg. "Apollo 13" ) Just curious if those titles playback as expected on certain problematic display devices. My LG OLED C7 handles all of these various HDR formats and frame rates without issues, so I have not personally experienced this.
The HDR10 content is fine (well, you get the metadata it was distributed with, and it remains constant) - but there isn't much of it. DV is by far more prevalent now. Unfortunately with Netflix they don't allow you to pull the HDR10 streams - you have to get the DV streams if you use AppleTV, which then does the conversion to "HDR10".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
At the moment five of the eight features I checked have constant metadata. This is still the case from the last time I said this. However it's exactly constant for every feature. So from my perspective 62% of DoVi content converted by the ATV4K has constant data which should result in interruption-free playback on systems that don't handle those changes well. Naturally we have to wonder exactly how this state of affairs has come about. Perhaps 60% of DoVi features don't have dynamic metadata or it's altered during distribution or the conversion routine in the ATV4K is not just wrong but incomprehensibly wrong.

In any case there are choices and people have to make them with minimal complaining about not getting a pony.

By the way an OPPO 20X will convert DoVi to HDR10.
From what I understood the Oppo can only convert DV discs to HDR10, nothing else. I don't think the HDMI input can actually be processed (plus the HDMI input doesn't even support MAT for Atmos). I'm not sure if it is actually decoding the 12 bit DV overlay in the player and flattening it out to HDR10, or just allowing you to select the base layer. But in any case, it's not going to help me get good output from my AppleTV so it's not helpful.

Minimal complaining never got anyone anything... If you can get enough momentum in something by raising awareness and getting complaints logged things >might< change. We've already managed to get workarounds for this wonkiness implemented into two devices - Sony projectors and Lumagen processors. In the current JVC units you do have the option to disable the metadata based tonemapping I believe, but it is a hassle and doesn't detract that the workarounds do nothing for actually getting you usable metadata, they just address gross immediate failures due to the metadata. The Lumagen workaround is a bit suboptimal as in a system with finely tuned HDR performance it leaves you without the means to perform that tuning.
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post #20827 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Using an outboard device to fix problematic meta-data is one approach. And it's useful for people that happen to own displays that use mastering luminance to control tone-mapping. However I was casting a wider net. E.g. buy any of the plethora of HDR10 only/HDR10 sourcing devices to feed your HDR10 only display or purchase a device that will correctly convert DoVi to HDR10.
As far as I'm aware the ATV4K is the only device which attempts to convert DV to HDR10.
I have another player which plays back HDR10 Netflix perfectly (Sony UHD player) including 23.976 and 24p support, but it has at least one other annoyance in that in the mode where it switches framerate it also switches frame rate for the trailers which autoplay, which makes it all but unusable on displays with slow sync (like my JVC PJ).

in any case, given that Apple are doing some really good deals on 4K titles to purchase it isn't that simple - I'd like to enjoy them and there is no other option that to use the ATV4k for playback of them.

Now the JVC projectors which are using this metadata are starting to ship more folk are noticing the problem with Apple's implementation. I really do hope Apple will just 'pull their finger out" and fix this once and for all. Frustrating that as yet it seems no-one has made it past front line support with this issue.
I believe the XBOX ONE X and S converts Dolby to HDR10 if you don’t have Dolby support on your TV.
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post #20828 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 08:04 PM
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Anyone notice parts of Grand Tour season 3 looking weird on Apple TV 4K? My hdr kicks on (LGC7), but the scenes in the tent look really dull. Some of the outside stuff looks normal (I think). Using the built in app on my tv looks more colorful using the same picture setting.
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post #20829 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 08:16 PM
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Anyone notice parts of Grand Tour season 3 looking weird on Apple TV 4K? My hdr kicks on (LGC7), but the scenes in the tent look really dull. Some of the outside stuff looks normal (I think). Using the built in app on my tv looks more colorful using the same picture setting.
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post #20830 of 26320 Old 01-26-2019, 08:36 PM
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My ATV4K is suddenly not giving me an Atmos option with shows and movies that I know should be available in Atmos in Prime Video and Netflix. I get Dolby Vision though.

I'm not sure when it started, exactly, since I don't watch a lot of Atmos content, but a couple months ago Lost in Space did show Atmos.

The ATV is attached to a Samsung N950 Atmos soundbar with a Monoprice certified high speed HDMI cable, and the soundbar is connected to the TV (LG C8) with a Monoprice certified cable also.

Atmos is enabled in the ATV settings.

Anybody have any ideas?
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post #20831 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
...
iTunes*: Average audio bitrate is approx. 770 kbps*** - Average video bitrate is 25 Mbps.
MoviesAnywhere**: Average audio bitrate is 256 kbps - Average video bitrate is 25 Mbps
Netflix*: Average audio bitrate is a 436 kbps - Average video bitrate of 16 Mbps.
Prime**: Average audio bitrate is a 448 kbps - Average video bitrate of 10 Mbps.
Vudu*: Average audio bitrate is a 560 kbps - Average video bitrate of 14 Mbps.

*Dolby Vision
**HDR10
***Atmos
...
I really like your chart but you can also get Atmos audio from Prime and Vudu depending on the device carrying the app. I watched the "Jack Ryan" series in Atmos on the Prime app and I watch titles with Atmos on Vudu all the time. I recently watched "Goosebumps 2" on Movies Anywhere just to test out the 4k video quality and it seems very good. I didn't realize the bitrate on the audio was so much less than the others though.

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post #20832 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 06:59 AM
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I have a question regarding 24p content output. I recently bought an Apple TV 4, since I have a 1080p projector I didn’t think I needed the 4K. It did this not realizing that atv4 does not support original frame rate matching.
I am currently setting up a plex server and I bout the atv4 for plex. Unfortunately I find a sort of soap opera affect when playing my plex movies through atv4.
I assumed this was due to the added frames for 60hz output— however I don’t seem to have the problem if I use Infuse.
So I guess my question is about whether or not frame rate matching is really a major advantage? I would love feedback on those who have compared the same content under the different settings. I also am projecting on 100” screen, so I don’t know if 24p frame match will make the picture worse?



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post #20833 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 07:11 AM
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The ATV 4 does support frame rate matching. It was added with a software update ages ago


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post #20834 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by LeisureDave View Post
I have a question regarding 24p content output. I recently bought an Apple TV 4, since I have a 1080p projector I didn’t think I needed the 4K. It did this not realizing that atv4 does not support original frame rate matching.
I am currently setting up a plex server and I bout the atv4 for plex. Unfortunately I find a sort of soap opera affect when playing my plex movies through atv4.
I assumed this was due to the added frames for 60hz output— however I don’t seem to have the problem if I use Infuse.
So I guess my question is about whether or not frame rate matching is really a major advantage? I would love feedback on those who have compared the same content under the different settings. I also am projecting on 100” screen, so I don’t know if 24p frame match will make the picture worse?



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The ATV 4 does support frame rate matching. It was added with a software update ages ago


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On both the ATV 4 (as in Gen 4), or ATV 4K (as in Gen 5), if the tvOS software is current, they will support Frame Rate matching.

EDIT: If the original content frame rate is 24p, then it should look its "best" when playing back at the same rate; regardless of screen size. Some of this will depend on how good the projector's 3:2 pulldown processing is. That will be more dependent on the age of the projector. If anything, the SOE caused by upshifting the frame rate will probably be more noticeable with a bigger screen.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288

LG OLED65C7P 4-20-19 Calibration SDR/HDR/DV FW 05.80.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57928994
VIZIO M70-D3 Calibration SDR/HDR FW 3.4.8.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post55595700

Last edited by sonoftumble; 01-27-2019 at 08:37 AM.
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post #20835 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeisureDave View Post
I have a question regarding 24p content output. I recently bought an Apple TV 4, since I have a 1080p projector I didn’t think I needed the 4K. It did this not realizing that atv4 does not support original frame rate matching.
Links to the ATV manuals and other helpful information can be found in the first post in this thread. Of particular interest is the Beyond basics section in the Apple TV User Guide.


By the way at this time the ATV supports 23.976 f/s but not 24 f/s.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #20836 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
My ATV4K is suddenly not giving me an Atmos option with shows and movies that I know should be available in Atmos in Prime Video and Netflix. I get Dolby Vision though.

I'm not sure when it started, exactly, since I don't watch a lot of Atmos content, but a couple months ago Lost in Space did show Atmos.

The ATV is attached to a Samsung N950 Atmos soundbar with a Monoprice certified high speed HDMI cable, and the soundbar is connected to the TV (LG C8) with a Monoprice certified cable also.

Atmos is enabled in the ATV settings.

Anybody have any ideas?
I had the same thing last week with my Samsung K950. Suddenly no Atmos halfway thru season 3 of the Punisher. It occurred after I updated the ATV4K firmware to 12.1.2. After multiple reboots and having the ATV4K run cable checks it finally said "Auto, Atmos" under audio settings.

Edit: I think my ultimate fix was unplugging the ATV4K for a full reboot.
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Last edited by naustin; 01-27-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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post #20837 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 11:54 AM
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I really like your chart but you can also get Atmos audio from Prime and Vudu depending on the device carrying the app. I watched the "Jack Ryan" series in Atmos on the Prime app and I watch titles with Atmos on Vudu all the time. I recently watched "Goosebumps 2" on Movies Anywhere just to test out the 4k video quality and it seems very good. I didn't realize the bitrate on the audio was so much less than the others though.
The Netflix reading was also Atmos for audio. I should have put the three stars on that line!

Netflix*: Average audio bitrate is a 436 kbps*** - Average video bitrate of 16 Mbps.
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post #20838 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 02:01 PM
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Anyone occasionally get hanging after clicking a movie to load the info page of said movie where it’ll just keep the circle loading icon and nothing happens and the only way to fix it is to close the iTunes movie app and reopen?
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post #20839 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
iTunes*: Average audio bitrate is approx. 770 kbps*** - Average video bitrate is 25 Mbps.
MoviesAnywhere**: Average audio bitrate is 256 kbps - Average video bitrate is 25 Mbps
Netflix*: Average audio bitrate is a 436 kbps - Average video bitrate of 16 Mbps.
It's difficult to compare video bitrates across apps because of various differences. E.g.
Netflix has, in general, a cap on 4K content.
Netflix and MA send 16:9 assets while Apple sends native AR. This shouldn't matter at all but the Netflix letter box bars are noisy so it probably counts a bit.
Apple has widely varying maximums and can report what I assume are short term averages greater than indicated stream maximum.

I think it's safe to say that in general Apple currently has the highest video bitrates.
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post #20840 of 26320 Old 01-27-2019, 07:05 PM
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Anyone occasionally get hanging after clicking a movie to load the info page of said movie where it’ll just keep the circle loading icon and nothing happens and the only way to fix it is to close the iTunes movie app and reopen?

I just back out of the startup to the info page and click on play again. Starts right up.
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post #20841 of 26320 Old 01-28-2019, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
On both the ATV 4 (as in Gen 4), or ATV 4K (as in Gen 5), if the tvOS software is current, they will support Frame Rate matching.



EDIT: If the original content frame rate is 24p, then it should look its "best" when playing back at the same rate; regardless of screen size. Some of this will depend on how good the projector's 3:2 pulldown processing is. That will be more dependent on the age of the projector. If anything, the SOE caused by upshifting the frame rate will probably be more noticeable with a bigger screen.



https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288


Thanks guys, I did see the frame rate option - I was going on bad outdated info from an older forum post. So I guess my remaining question is in regards to the Plex vs Infuse apps for ATV. Has anyone else experienced an issue with Plex? It seems to make the movies look soap opera effect-ish. Infuse, linked to plex does not seem to have that issue.


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post #20842 of 26320 Old 01-28-2019, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naustin View Post
I had the same thing last week with my Samsung K950. Suddenly no Atmos halfway thru season 3 of the Punisher. It occurred after I updated the ATV4K firmware to 12.1.2. After multiple reboots and having the ATV4K run cable checks it finally said "Auto, Atmos" under audio settings.

Edit: I think my ultimate fix was unplugging the ATV4K for a full reboot.
I've already tried the unplugging (and multiple soft reboots) I will try it again.

Thanks, glad to know that it's not just me. I know you have the K950 and not the N950, but I have to think that it's not a coincidence.
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post #20843 of 26320 Old 01-28-2019, 07:43 PM
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For example, I received a Blu-ray disc of the 50th anniversary remastered release of "2001:A Space Odyssey". The Blu-ray included an UltraViolet 1080P/SDR digital redemption for Vudu. After I redeemed the title, MA added it to its library, and then iTunes grabbed it. In December, iTunes automatically upgraded it from 1080P/SDR to 4K/Dolby Vision with iTunes Extras. Nice!
REALLY?!?!? This is nice, as to the best of my recollection, I've never had a VUDU HDX movie (ported via MA) get the free 4K upgrade from iTunes. As you usually had to purchase/redeem in iTunes to get the 4K upgrade.
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post #20844 of 26320 Old 01-28-2019, 08:25 PM
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Small cool I noticed my VIZIO remote works on the Apple TV.
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post #20845 of 26320 Old 01-28-2019, 10:05 PM
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REALLY?!?!? This is nice, as to the best of my recollection, I've never had a VUDU HDX movie (ported via MA) get the free 4K upgrade from iTunes. As you usually had to purchase/redeem in iTunes to get the 4K upgrade.
The porting hasn’t worked for me, they come across as HD and stay that way.

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Small cool I noticed my VIZIO remote works on the Apple TV.
Any IR remote can control the Apple TV. It’s a very cool feature.
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post #20846 of 26320 Old 01-29-2019, 02:49 AM
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I have a strange problem with an iTunes movie.



I watched Ready Player 1 on iTunes on my Apple TV 4K a couple of months ago as i didn't want to buy it at the full price, but since the recent price drops I have been trying to buy it at the £2.99 price

I bought it on my PC and if i look on iTunes on my PC it is in the list and it will play ok, also i have not been charged for the bought copy.


If I look on my Apple TV 4K the movie is not there and every time I try to buy it says i have now bought it and then asks if i want to watch it now, if I say yes I get the spinning cog which goes on for ever (20minutes this morning).

If I look on the list of movies on the Apple TV 4K it is not in the list, but if i look on iTunes on my PC it is in the list which is strange.


I bought quite a few other movies at the £2.99 price and they are all ok.


I have rebooted my Apple TV 4K a few times and also logged out of iTunes and back in again but that makes no difference, does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should try next.

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post #20847 of 26320 Old 01-29-2019, 03:00 AM
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REALLY?!?!? This is nice, as to the best of my recollection, I've never had a VUDU HDX movie (ported via MA) get the free 4K upgrade from iTunes. As you usually had to purchase/redeem in iTunes to get the 4K upgrade.
My iTunes copy of 2001 refuses to become 4K. I must have had it port from MA also because for a while I only redeemed codes in Vudu if I had to choose between Vudu and iTunes. (Years ago before MA)

I considered rebuying it (gifting it to myself) but I don't often re-watch it.
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post #20848 of 26320 Old 01-29-2019, 03:03 AM
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I have a strange problem with an iTunes movie.



I watched Ready Player 1 on iTunes on my Apple TV 4K a couple of months ago as i didn't want to buy it at the full price, but since the recent price drops I have been trying to buy it at the £2.99 price

I bought it on my PC and if i look on iTunes on my PC it is in the list and it will play ok, also i have not been charged for the bought copy.


If I look on my Apple TV 4K the movie is not there and every time I try to buy it says i have now bought it and then asks if i want to watch it now, if I say yes I get the spinning cog which goes on for ever (20minutes this morning).

If I look on the list of movies on the Apple TV 4K it is not in the list, but if i look on iTunes on my PC it is in the list which is strange.


I bought quite a few other movies at the £2.99 price and they are all ok.


I have rebooted my Apple TV 4K a few times and also logged out of iTunes and back in again but that makes no difference, does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should try next.
That is strange. I never heard of this problem. It's like it's not Ready to be Play(er)ed.
I assume you have the same account on your PC and ATV4K.

If I had your problem I think I would reset my ATV4K and re configure everything again.

Last edited by Brian Hampton; 01-29-2019 at 03:11 AM.
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post #20849 of 26320 Old 01-29-2019, 04:11 AM
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Does anyone have Ready Player 1 as one of their movies on their Apple TV 4K as Apple say that there may be a problem with it which is why I cannot see it on my Apple TV 4K

LG OLED 55 C7, Marantz SR7010, Panasonic BD35, Logitech Elite, Virgin V6, Mission 752, Mission 75C, Wharfedall 9.0, BK XLS200 Mk 2, iPhone 6S, Synology 214Play, Wetek Play2, Mede8er MED600X3D, Amazon Fire Stick, Apple TV 4K, NowTV, Airport Extremes
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post #20850 of 26320 Old 01-29-2019, 06:14 AM
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Does anyone have Ready Player 1 as one of their movies on their Apple TV 4K as Apple say that there may be a problem with it which is why I cannot see it on my Apple TV 4K


It’s playing on my end. My entire purchased library isn’t showing up this morning though.... just a recent rental. I logged out and back in. Still no luck. If you navigate to a movie in the store, it recognizes I own it and will play though. Not the first time this has happened. As a caveat, I am using beta builds.


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