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post #22471 of 25609 Old 05-09-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Wow, pretty dumb in Apple's part.

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Why? It does a pretty amazing job of it. People are quite happy with LG oleds adding dynamic tone mapping to an hdr layer but if apple do any kind of conversion it’s an outrage? In case you havent noticed, the Apple TV 4k also upscales everything to 4k but again, it does a pretty amazing job so no real need to stress about that either.


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post #22472 of 25609 Old 05-09-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
Why? It does a pretty amazing job of it. People are quite happy with LG oleds adding dynamic tone mapping to an hdr layer but if apple do any kind of conversion it’s an outrage? In case you havent noticed, the Apple TV 4k also upscales everything to 4k but again, it does a pretty amazing job so no real need to stress about that either.


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Apple should have multiple source streams so it pulls whatever stream you are compatible with. Also the HDR10 conversion is only good for TVs that have dynamic tone mapping.

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post #22473 of 25609 Old 05-09-2019, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mjwagner View Post
suppose my underlying understanding of how DV works, base HDR10 data with the added DV data, is fundamentally not exactly accurate then. I always thought that if you fed a DV signal to a non-DV capable display it would just ignore the extra DV data and display as HDR10 since the HDR10 base layer was there in the DV signal.
Correct it's inaccurate.
There are multiple ways DoVi can be formatted while in transit (via HDMI or network) but they all require a DoVi decoder to produce a usable image HDR10 devices don't simply ignore the DoVi metadata. Some variants of DoVi have multiple streams (HDR or SDR plus enhancement) some don't.

The BDA mandates a specific on-disc format for UHD-BD which consists of an HDR-10 base layer and a DoVi metadata layer. Players only send the HDR10 layer to HDR10 only displays. Modern streaming formats send a single DoVi-only layer. Non-DoVi devices can be sent an HDR10 stream (Netflix et.al.) or an on-the-fly conversion to HDR10 (Apple).

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post #22474 of 25609 Old 05-09-2019, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Also the HDR10 conversion is only good for TVs that have dynamic tone mapping.
Not to say that Apple does the ideal conversion but I don't see how you draw that conclusion.
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post #22475 of 25609 Old 05-09-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Correct it's inaccurate.
There are multiple ways DoVi can be formatted while in transit (via HDMI or network) but they all require a DoVi decoder to produce a usable image HDR10 devices don't simply ignore the DoVi metadata. Some variants of DoVi have multiple streams (HDR or SDR plus enhancement) some don't.

The BDA mandates a specific on-disc format for UHD-BD which consists of an HDR-10 base layer and a DoVi metadata layer. Players only send the HDR10 layer to HDR10 only displays. Modern streaming formats send a single DoVi-only layer. Non-DoVi devices can be sent an HDR10 stream (Netflix et.al.) or an on-the-fly conversion to HDR10 (Apple).
Thanks for the info...

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post #22476 of 25609 Old 05-09-2019, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tweeter2002 View Post
you said my numbers were off because Netflix claimed to be up to 768Kbps. ... And yes I am forcing the audio to output DD 5.1
I didn't imagine you were quoting forced AC-3 values in the context of original audio bandwidth because in that case the output bandwidth is (nearly) unrelated to the original stream's bandwidth.
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post #22477 of 25609 Old 05-09-2019, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Apple should have multiple source streams so it pulls whatever stream you are compatible with. Also the HDR10 conversion is only good for TVs that have dynamic tone mapping.

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I've honestly seen exactly zero complaints about the conversion outside of discrepancies revealed in the analysis I sent you.

All HDR TVs will always tonemap against the MaxFALL and MaxCLL so not sure on your point. The Apple TV is just doing the math for the TVs that can't do scene by scene metadata, so I don't understand how that is "dumb in Apple's part".
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post #22478 of 25609 Old 05-09-2019, 11:42 PM
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Apple TV owners' thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Apple should have multiple source streams so it pulls whatever stream you are compatible with. Also the HDR10 conversion is only good for TVs that have dynamic tone mapping.

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I’m not getting that final statement. To be honest, HDR 10 is a bit of a shambles in general. Some releases are mastered to a max of 1000nits, others to 4000nits. Some TVs can manage 1000nits but many can’t. No tv (to my knowledge) can manage 4000nits at the moment. You therefore have a situation where HDR 10 output is dependent on the tone mapping of the television and all major manufacturers take different approaches to this. The result is that how a film looks can vary greatly from one television to the next so any pretence of showing a film ‘accurately’ or ‘as the director intended’ is pretty much out the window.

I know it’s ingrained in AV enthusiasts to pass through an unaltered image but taking that as a default stance without actually checking out the end result is unhelpful. In my experience, the Apple TV does an excellent job converting Dolby Vision to HDR 10 and any differences which do exist will be largely insignificant in comparison to those caused by whichever tone mapping approach your tv uses.


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post #22479 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
This is Apple's covert campaign to get people to set the UI default to HDR.
It might make the HDR screensavers look better.

The ATV converts DoVi to HDR-10 as required. As you suggest the definitive answer to "what's my state" should be provided by the rendering/processing devices (AVR, display, signal processor etc.)
Last night I switched my ATV4K setup from HDR back to 4KSDR and while I didn't look at the screensaver, the ATV UI itself looks brighter & nicer to me.


Next I played the iTunes 4K DoVi Interstellar and my Sony pj reported that it had been (properly it seems, as the latest posts discuss) converted to HDR10 so I will ignore Apple's "covert campaign" gotcha at least until their next update where no doubt they'll make some other changes to confuse unsuspecting customers.
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post #22480 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
I've honestly seen exactly zero complaints about the conversion outside of discrepancies revealed in the analysis I sent you.

All HDR TVs will always tonemap against the MaxFALL and MaxCLL so not sure on your point. The Apple TV is just doing the math for the TVs that can't do scene by scene metadata, so I don't understand how that is "dumb in Apple's part".
My Samsung (obviously!) does not support DV - but the HDR10 conversion from the ATV is excellent. To me looks identical to straight HDR10 sent from the TV's own Netflix and Amazon apps.
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post #22481 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I didn't imagine you were quoting forced AC-3 values in the context of original audio bandwidth because in that case the output bandwidth is (nearly) unrelated to the original stream's bandwidth.
I'm not talking about bandwith, the increased bitrate I'm receiving from Netflix and how I thought I was already getting it proir to their announcement.

I'm not sure what you are inferring with bandwidth

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post #22482 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tweeter2002 View Post
I'm not talking about bandwith
I'm not sure what you are inferring with bandwidth
Bandwidth and bitrate are synonymous.

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post #22483 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 03:45 PM
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Bandwidth and bitrate are synonymous.
one implies the size of the pipe, the other implies the size of the item being sent down the pipe.
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post #22484 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Not to say that Apple does the ideal conversion but I don't see how you draw that conclusion.
I looked at it myself after I watched Vincent's video.

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Originally Posted by mutelight View Post
I've honestly seen exactly zero complaints about the conversion outside of discrepancies revealed in the analysis I sent you.

All HDR TVs will always tonemap against the MaxFALL and MaxCLL so not sure on your point. The Apple TV is just doing the math for the TVs that can't do scene by scene metadata, so I don't understand how that is "dumb in Apple's part".

You can see the difference so it's dumb that they use a conversation instead of hosting the correct source.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
I’m not getting that final statement. To be honest, HDR 10 is a bit of a shambles in general. Some releases are mastered to a max of 1000nits, others to 4000nits. Some TVs can manage 1000nits but many can’t. No tv (to my knowledge) can manage 4000nits at the moment. You therefore have a situation where HDR 10 output is dependent on the tone mapping of the television and all major manufacturers take different approaches to this. The result is that how a film looks can vary greatly from one television to the next so any pretence of showing a film ‘accurately’ or ‘as the director intended’ is pretty much out the window.

I know it’s ingrained in AV enthusiasts to pass through an unaltered image but taking that as a default stance without actually checking out the end result is unhelpful. In my experience, the Apple TV does an excellent job converting Dolby Vision to HDR 10 and any differences which do exist will be largely insignificant in comparison to those caused by whichever tone mapping approach your tv uses.


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The difference is pretty large without any display tone mapping engaged. I looked at the result and that's why I commented.

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post #22485 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 04:42 PM
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You can see the difference so it's dumb that they use a conversation instead of hosting the correct source.
The correct source is the Dolby Vision source. That is what they get from the studios.
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post #22486 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I didn't imagine you were quoting forced AC-3 values in the context of original audio bandwidth because in that case the output bandwidth is (nearly) unrelated to the original stream's bandwidth.
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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
one implies the size of the pipe, the other implies the size of the item being sent down the pipe.
Sure but I said audio bandwidth, output bandwidth and stream bandwidth so no assumption was required.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #22487 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I looked at it myself after I watched Vincent's video.
There's still no reason for you to draw such a conclusion. It's hard to imagine how a "static" HDR stream could be considered to require a dynamic display to render as intended. This is ignoring the fact that most HDR displays are flexible when tone-mapping static metadata in any case.

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post #22488 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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The correct source is the Dolby Vision source. That is what they get from the studios.
The studios have multiple formats for various targets. Distributors can also produce various formats. What companies like Vudu, Netflix and Apple get (and what they can do with those assets) depends on the feature, the studio and the contract between the studio and distributor (viz. recent Star Wars movies).

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #22489 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 05:18 PM
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The studios have multiple formats for various targets. Distributors can also produce various formats. What companies like Vudu, Netflix and Apple get (and what they can do with those assets) depends on the feature, the studio and the contract between the studio and distributor (viz. recent Star Wars movies).
Correct, but each transactional platform gets the best HDR format for their platform. Dolby Vision in iTunes’s case. If Disney were to strike a deal with Apple, they would get the DV asset. No transactional platform that I am aware of is requesting both the DV and HDR10 assets.
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Based on what I can see the ATV 4k is doing a pretty good job at whatever conversion it is doing. I have three streaming devices connected in my home theater, ATV 4k, Nvidia Shield, and a FireTV Stick 4k all going thru a Denon x6400h to a Optoma UHZ65 4k laser projector. Using NetFlix on each I ran The Umbrella Academy episode 1 from approximately minute 19 to minute 24 which has lots of dark, light, contrast, and colors particularly in the bar/sitting area scene. I really could discern very little difference between any of them....for what it’s worth. Of course it’s hard doing a good comparison flipping back and forth and not doing a real side by side but it’s the best I could do. According to NetFlix the source on the ATV 4k was DV and on both the Shield and FireTV, HDR.
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post #22491 of 25609 Old 05-10-2019, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Sure but I said audio bandwidth, output bandwidth and stream bandwidth so no assumption was required.
Bandwidth is typically measured in Hz. Bit rate in bits per second.

For example, a 4K60 4:4:4 8-bit video signal has an 18Gbps bit rate and 600 MHz bandwidth.
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post #22492 of 25609 Old 05-11-2019, 04:57 AM
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There's still no reason for you to draw such a conclusion. It's hard to imagine how a "static" HDR stream could be considered to require a dynamic display to render as intended. This is ignoring the fact that most HDR displays are flexible when tone-mapping static metadata in any case.
What? All I'm saying is that without having the TV to perform its own dynamic tone mapping, the picture looks different when you compare an HDR10 source to the DV source converted to HDR10.

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Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
Last night I switched my ATV4K setup from HDR back to 4KSDR and while I didn't look at the screensaver, the ATV UI itself looks brighter & nicer to me.


Next I played the iTunes 4K DoVi Interstellar and my Sony pj reported that it had been (properly it seems, as the latest posts discuss) converted to HDR10 so I will ignore Apple's "covert campaign" gotcha at least until their next update where no doubt they'll make some other changes to confuse unsuspecting customers.
There is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 1/2 x the DV titles vs. HDR10 in the iTunes library ( 447 vs. 165 ). Obviously, those HDR10 titles are not converted from DV - so they shouldn't suffer from any conversion side effects. 4K SDR is still top of the hill with 858 titles.

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post #22494 of 25609 Old 05-11-2019, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Bandwidth is typically measured in Hz. Bit rate in bits per second.
Bandwidth is a term of art. In this context (computing bandwidth) it's a synonym for bitrate. There's a Wikipedia article which may provide some additional insight.

The confounding issue here is the common usage of bandwidth (expressed in bits per second) for the total or peak data rate from an ISP to a consumer.

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one implies the size of the pipe, the other implies the size of the item being sent down the pipe.
Bandwidth was the highway, whether two, three, or four lanes and the bitrate were the vehicles.

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I didn't imagine you were quoting forced AC-3 values in the context of original audio bandwidth because in that case the output bandwidth is (nearly) unrelated to the original stream's bandwidth.

So are you stating by forcing the ATV4K to output DD5.1 I'm not benefiting from the increased bitrate from Netflix? Keep in mind if there is a title with Dolby Atmos the setting is changed to output Dolby Atmos.

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post #22497 of 25609 Old 05-11-2019, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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What? All I'm saying is that without having the TV to perform its own dynamic tone mapping, the picture looks different when you compare an HDR10 source to the DV source converted to HDR10.
One would expect this to be dependent on the sources and the video chain (display static to dynamic conversions are model specific).

What items from what source are you using for this comparison?

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #22498 of 25609 Old 05-11-2019, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tweeter2002 View Post
So are you stating by forcing the ATV4K to output DD5.1 I'm not benefiting from the increased bitrate from Netflix?
I was speaking in the general sense in response to 1) Your initial assertion that you've been getting 640Kbps audio prior to the 1-May conversion 2) The (new) information that you're forcing AC-3.

Netflix uses E-AC-3 for multi-channel audio so it's hard to say what or how much you lose when you force it to AC-3 but we can be confident that the output is not the same as the input.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #22499 of 25609 Old 05-11-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
One would expect this to be dependent on the sources and the video chain (display static to dynamic conversions are model specific).

What items from what source are you using for this comparison?
I compared a few titles from iTunes to the same titles on movies anywhere.

Really in the end, my TV supports DV and HDR10 doesn't touch DV to my eyes. Better bright detail and better dark detail

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My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #22500 of 25609 Old 05-11-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
I was speaking in the general sense in response to 1) Your initial assertion that you've been getting 640Kbps audio prior to the 1-May conversion 2) The (new) information that you're forcing AC-3.

Netflix uses E-AC-3 for multi-channel audio so it's hard to say what or how much you lose when you force it to AC-3 but we can be confident that the output is not the same as the input.

Okay thanks

I put a call into Apple technical support asking if the ATV4K would be able to handle the increased bitrate from Netflix. The tech support understood my question but wasn't able to have an answer.

When Dolby Digital 5.1 is selected does the ATV4K have a fixed bitrate? The Dolby codec should offer the flexibility to handle an increase, as well the ATV4K.

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Last edited by Tweeter2002; 05-11-2019 at 01:18 PM.
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